AWARE-LA (Alliance of White Anti-Racists Everywhere)

[tachosomoza]

http://www.awarela.org/

This is a new one. An organization whose apparent goal is to fight racism and fascism with segregation and division. I can only imagine what the meetings are like. Seriously, though. How can you talk about eliminating racism when you have an organization with the word WHITE in the name? :lol:

Seriously. Look at this.


1. People of color shouldn’t always have to be the ones to educate white people about racism and oppression. We are taking responsibility for learning about racism, our own white privilege, and how to challenge it as white people.

2. In order to challenge racism and dismantle white supremacy, white people need to unlearn racism and discover the ways we enact white privilege. This is a long, difficult, and sometimes painful process. It’s helpful to have a space where other white people engaged in this process can support and challenge us, without having to always subject people of color to further undue trauma or pain as we stumble and make mistakes. Having a community of white anti-racist people gives us hope, helps us grow our practice, and gives us strength to stay in it for the long haul.
3. A commitment to anti-racist identity and practice as a white person can sometimes mean increased alienation and conflict in our lives, especially with other white friends and family who disagree with us. AWARE is a space where we can get support from people who are experiencing similar struggles as anti-racist white people.

4. It’s a space for white people to figure out what it means to be an anti-racist white person and challenge racism in all areas of our lives. We cannot expect people of color to have all of the answers for us on how to transform ourselves and other white people. As white people we are well equipped to understand what it means to be a white, as well as a white anti-racist.

5. It’s a place where white people can begin to build a new culture of white anti-racism, and learn the skills needed to transform the larger white community.

6. AWARE is a supplement to, not a replacement for, multi-racial dialogues between white people and people of color. It’s important that white people give space in their lives to learning from and bearing witness to people of color’s experiences of racism.

7. A white space serves as a resource to people of color who want to work with white people but don’t want to have to spend all their energy dealing with the racism of white people.

[Blackscare]

Most of those points smack of liberal white guilt, the rest of condescension.

[Aspiring Humanist]

reactionaries

[tachosomoza]

Maybe they're scared of the historically marginalized groups attacking them, so they feel the need to have white guilt circle jerks in their suburban McMansions. Folks, this is NOT how you have a revolution.

[Blackscare]

Interesting though, this seems almost like a bizarro inversion of identity politics. It really supports the notion that splitting every issue into a 'movement' of it's own outside of a broader left-wing platform does not serve to make said movements more potent, it only leads to balkanization and isolation, even within what is ostensibly the same movement. Granted these shmucks are being especially silly, but I think that it's this sort of thinking that leads to insanity like this.

[tachosomoza]

They've also got a few quotes from Malcolm X and Huey Newton, nationalists and racists both, on their site, talking about how "whites should organize within white communities". It may have been a valid strategy back in the 1960s, with the high level of segregation and lack of contact between "people of color" and "whites". Now, that strategy is extremely ineffective due to the high level of integration that has occured since then. The division of leftist movements into neat little tribes serves no purpose in the grand scheme of things. A segregated revolution is a failed revolution.

[Blackscare]

Now, that strategy is extremely ineffective due to the high level of integration that has occured since then.

Well, not that I take issue with your overall points, but to say that the US has a "high level of integration" (as if this were some sort of across-the-board truth) is misleading. Come to Long Island, for instance, huge areas still either self-segregate or are segregated along economic lines. Take Wyandanch, for instance.

[tachosomoza]

Well, not that I take issue with your overall points, but to say that the US has a "high level of integration" (as if this were some sort of across-the-board truth) is misleading. Come to Long Island, for instance, huge areas still either self-segregate or are segregated along economic lines. Take Wyandanch, for instance.

My bad. I meant that there aren't as many barriers to integration and communication as there were back in the mid 20th century. If a Hispanic or African American wants to move somewhere, they can reasonably expect to not have their home burned by an angry mob or encounter laws and covenants that are obviously intended to keep them away.

[Coach Trotsky]

Okay, but what serious alternatives do revolutionary socialists offer to Euro-ethnic working class progressive elements?

Yes, this stuff sounds jacked-up and insane, but where the heck is the revolutionary Left providing a better progressive leadership TO THESE TYPES inside the working class?

Do you just abandon them, patting yourselves on the backs and labeling them 'reactionaries'? How does that change a damn thing?

Sorry, but it seems pretty obvious that damn near all the Left leaderships of various sorts have failed the working class, including in regard to a proletarian, revolutionary and socialist SOLUTION on the questions of special oppression. Too many dropped their Marxism and picked up the trendy liberal bourgeois and petty bourgeois scripts regarding special oppression...because they lost confidence in the working class, because they looked for quick and easy substitute forces (and in practice, this meant uncritically orienting to and appeasing the interests and leaderships of middle class and bourgeois elements of specially oppressed groups, who often were NOT true friend and champion of the working class nor even of the working class majority of their specially oppressed constituencies).

Answer me this: Where has there been any serious consistently revolutionary Marxist proletarian-based fundemental theoretical work on the questions of special oppression since 'The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State'?

And what the hell is so "progressive" or "revolutionary" about guilt-tripping and condemning Euro-ethnic proletarians? This disgusting trend on the Left has got to be discarded into the dustbin of history, not only because it makes a damn mockery of the fight against racism and reactionary nationalism, but I'd argue it even assists the capitalist class in dividing, weakening, demoralizing and conquering the working class!

[tachosomoza]

Okay, but what serious alternatives do revolutionary socialists offer to Euro-ethnic working class progressive elements?

Yes, this stuff sounds jacked-up and insane, but where the heck is the revolutionary Left providing a better progressive leadership TO THESE TYPES inside the working class?

Do you just abandon them, patting yourselves on the backs and labeling them 'reactionaries'? How does that change a damn thing?

Sorry, but it seems pretty obvious that damn near all the Left leaderships of various sorts have failed the working class, including in regard to a proletarian, revolutionary and socialist SOLUTION on the questions of special oppression. Too many dropped their Marxism and picked up the trendy liberal bourgeois and petty bourgeois scripts regarding special oppression...because they lost confidence in the working class, because they looked for quick and easy substitute forces (and in practice, this meant uncritically orienting to and appeasing the interests and leaderships of middle class and bourgeois elements of specially oppressed groups, who often were NOT true friend and champion of the working class nor even of the working class majority of their specially oppressed constituencies).

Answer me this: Where has there been any serious consistently revolutionary Marxist proletarian-based fundemental theoretical work on the questions of special oppression since 'The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State'?

And what the hell is so "progressive" or "revolutionary" about guilt-tripping and condemning Euro-ethnic proletarians? This disgusting trend on the Left has got to be discarded into the dustbin of history, not only because it makes a damn mockery of the fight against racism and reactionary nationalism, but I'd argue it even assists the capitalist class in dividing, weakening, demoralizing and conquering the working class!


Trotsky, I couldn't thank you more. I've raised hell at several ARA functions about this, man. Folks claim to be anti racists. Folks claim to be communists, anarcho-communists, etc. Yet, they only focus on borderline nutcase types like the NSBM, World Church of the Creator, etc that hate only certain groups of color or religion. They do VIRTUALLY NOTHING to address underlying problems that lead to racist thought. They do NOTHING to address problems that affect Euro-ethnic populations, who historically have been oppressed damn near as much as the non European population. By sitting on their asses and ignoring a very large segment of the proletariat in the United States, more often than not "anti-racists" are contributing to the development of rightist groups such as the Aryan Nations, etc. A surprising number of people that align themselves with those groups are working class kids with Italian, Slavic, Greek, and Polish surnames. It's because we as communists are doing nothing to appeal to them, and more often than not, they are turned to the reactionary camp by "anti-racist" guilt trips and fingerpointing. This is coming from an American ex-con of primarily African extraction. As an anti-racist activist, I try to address ALL forms of prejudice, regardless of who holds the opinion or who the victim is.

What we need is a comprehensive movement to address ALL forms of prejudice and social oppression, along with taking direct action to combat the root causes of distrust and hatred between different subsects of the proletariat. You'd be surprised at the amount of hatred and prejudice present in the African American and Hispanic community against European ethnic populations. Before we can fight the class war, we've got to put to bed the notion of a "race war" that the bourgeois have successfully cultivated in the minds of the proletariat.

[Property Is Robbery]

Malcolm X and Huey Newton, nationalists and racists both,
You think Huey P. and Malcolm X were racist?

[tachosomoza]

You think Huey P. and Malcolm X were racist?

Malcolm X and the Nation of Islam gained the support of the American Nazi Party. Hell, they showed up as guests at a couple of NoI functions. Rockwell called them "The black version of us". Huey P. and the Panthers were black nationalists and separatists. Switch "white" with "black" in the prior sentence and what do you get? Racists. In my opinion, anyone who supports the establishment of a state based on race is a racist. The Nation of Islam wanted the government to turn over 3 or 4 states for the sole occupation of people of African extraction. The Northwest Front is trying to do the same thing, only they're a White Nationalist movement. Do you see the double standard? Racists, nationalists, fascists, etc. of ALL backgrounds need to be combated. If you simply target a hate group comprised of white, Christian men, then you are no better than the hate group.

[Princess Luna]

Malcolm X and the Nation of Islam gained the support of the American Nazi Party. Hell, they showed up as guests at a couple of NoI functions. Rockwell called them "The black version of us". Huey P. and the Panthers were black nationalists and separatists. Switch "white" with "black" in the prior sentence and what do you get? Racists. In my opinion, anyone who supports the establishment of a state based on race is a racist. The Nation of Islam wanted the government to turn over 3 or 4 states for the sole occupation of people of African extraction. The Northwest Front is trying to do the same thing, only they're a White Nationalist movement. Do you see the double standard? Racists, nationalists, fascists, etc. of ALL backgrounds need to be combated. If you simply target a hate group comprised of white, Christian men, then you are no better than the hate group.
The Black panthers were never racist, and while the Nation of Islam is very bigoted towards the end of his life Malcolm X broke all ties with them and denounced racism and as punishment NoI shot and killed him.

[tachosomoza]

The Black panthers were never racist, and while the Nation of Islam is very bigoted towards the end of his life Malcolm X broke all ties with them and denounced racism and as punishment NoI shot and killed him.

The Panthers eventually renounced nationalism in the early 1970s, but in the initial stages they espoused some pretty heavy anti-European rhetoric.


After Hutton's death, Black Panther Party Chairman Bobby Seale and Kathleen Cleaver (Eldridge's wife) held a rally in New York City at the Fillmore East in support of Hutton and Cleaver. Playwright LeRoi Jones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LeRoi_Jones) (later Amiri Baraka) joined them on stage before a mixed crowd of 2,000:

We want to become masters of our own destiny...we want to build a black nation to benefit black people...The white people who killed Bobby Hutton are the same white people sitting here.[48] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Panthers#cite_note-47)


As for Malcolm X, you are partially correct. Elijah Muhammad (the NOI leader) was having affairs with several secretaries. This hypocrisy is what pushed Malcolm X out of the organization. And yes, they killed him with the assistance of the Federal government, who had a bone to pick as well with him. They couldn't have given two fucks about his renouncement of racism.

[Coach Trotsky]

Honestly, I'm very impressed with the level of discussion so far at this point, and have to agree with most of what tachosomoza said in response to my post.

Attack the source, attack the system, attack the ruling class that uses special oppression, point out that the only way to eliminate ALL these special social oppressions is through a working class revolution that leaves no room on Earth for capitalism and reaction to hold on and restore itself. That is in the interest of every working person on the planet! Now, within that, yes, we need to combat the hold that ideologies justifying special social oppression have upon the minds and behaviors of working people everywhere...but because we are revolutionary socialists, because we are against ALL special social oppressions and we see the proletarian revolution as the source of the REAL liberation of all of humanity, we don't do that the way that liberals and reformist pretend to fight oppression while holding the hands of the bourgeoisie and serving THEIR interests! When you are fighting oppression, you don't forget that you are revolutionary socialists! You don't switch hats when you go outside the union meeting or the strike pickets and then go into a protest composed largely of specially oppressed peoples! Yet, if we're being honest, we ourselves have done this very thing, or at the least we must admit that we've seen it in our comrades and other ostensible Leftists.

Certainly, a lot of this is due to misguided ignorance and lack of development...which means that the leaderships on the revolutionary Left need to do more work educating their own members and supporters, and if they are actually serious about opposing all special social oppression as a inseparably linked necessary task of the proletarian revolution, and reject all opportunist junk which implies that their is some non-revolution non-proletarian means to achieve the liberation of humanity for special social oppression, they the leaderships will do their job and intensively provide leadership as widely as possible on THIS critical question.

The revolutionary Left could win this historic struggle and could win over the forces necessary to win in the here and now, but only if they take up and consistently apply and fight for a fundamentally proletarian, revolutionary, and socialist approach to the abolition of all forms of special social oppressions.

The fact that this has yet to occur indicates the need for a thorough revolutionary regeneration of the proletarian vanguard forces. Each of us is responsible for carrying out THAT task.

[tachosomoza]

Honestly, I'm very impressed with the level of discussion so far at this point, and have to agree with most of what tachosomoza said in response to my post.

Attack the source, attack the system, attack the ruling class that uses special oppression, point out that the only way to eliminate ALL these special social oppressions is through a working class revolution that leaves no room on Earth for capitalism and reaction to hold on and restore itself. That is in the interest of every working person on the planet! Now, within that, yes, we need to combat the hold that ideologies justifying special social oppression have upon the minds and behaviors of working people everywhere...but because we are revolutionary socialists, because we are against ALL special social oppressions and we see the proletarian revolution as the source of the REAL liberation of all of humanity, we don't do that the way that liberals and reformist pretend to fight oppression while holding the hands of the bourgeoisie and serving THEIR interests! When you are fighting oppression, you don't forget that you are revolutionary socialists! You don't switch hats when you go outside the union meeting or the strike pickets and then go into a protest composed largely of specially oppressed peoples! Yet, if we're being honest, we ourselves have done this very thing, or at the least we must admit that we've seen it in our comrades and other ostensible Leftists.

Certainly, a lot of this is due to misguided ignorance and lack of development...which means that the leaderships on the revolutionary Left need to do more work educating their own members and supporters, and if they are actually serious about opposing all special social oppression as a inseparably linked necessary task of the proletarian revolution, and reject all opportunist junk which implies that their is some non-revolution non-proletarian means to achieve the liberation of humanity for special social oppression, they the leaderships will do their job and intensively provide leadership as widely as possible on THIS critical question.

The revolutionary Left could win this historic struggle and could win over the forces necessary to win in the here and now, but only if they take up and consistently apply and fight for a fundamentally proletarian, revolutionary, and socialist approach to the abolition of all forms of special social oppressions.

The fact that this has yet to occur indicates the need for a thorough revolutionary regeneration of the proletarian vanguard forces. Each of us is responsible for carrying out THAT task.


We should start by getting rid of the notion that historically marginalized groups of color can't be racist or hold prejudicial thoughts, and taking action to combat those thoughts. This is the first step in building a united proletarian front. Stop working with poverty pimps like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton who hijack leftist movements and push their own separatist, anti-Semitic, anti-Euro-Ethnic dogma.

[kahimikarie]

this kind of thing seems like a natural growth from the liberal anti-racist ideology expressed by people like tim wise and a lot of the liberals found on the internet. there's a lot of talking about people of color being irritated with having to explain racism, elementary anti-racism over and over again to naive white people etc.

[Tim Finnegan]

Seriously, though. How can you talk about eliminating racism when you have an organization with the word WHITE in the name? :lol:
Well, yeah. Colour-conciousness is absolutely fundamental to any effective anti-racist thought or action; "colour-blindness" is an exclusive white luxury, and its actually a sign of progress that liberals are coming to realise that.

Look, I don't think these guys have it quite right- although I wouldn't go so far as to dust off that unimaginative old bugbear of "white guilt", whatever that means this week- but the essential case they're making, that white people actually need to address out own position within racial hierarchies, rather than simply waiting for people of colour to explain to us what is objectively obvious, is a solid one, and an important one. Perhaps forming an actual organisation to that end is a step further than this needs to go, but it's not exactly like the far-left is unfamiliar with the formation of redundant political groupings. Certainly, describing this as "segregation and division" is witlessness at best, and more like simple dishonesty.


And what the hell is so "progressive" or "revolutionary" about guilt-tripping and condemning Euro-ethnic proletarians? This disgusting trend on the Left has got to be discarded into the dustbin of history, not only because it makes a damn mockery of the fight against racism and reactionary nationalism, but I'd argue it even assists the capitalist class in dividing, weakening, demoralizing and conquering the working class!
It's not about "guilt-tripping" anyone, it's about recognising that a white supremacist society, oddly enough, creates a social, economic and ideological environment more favourable to whites and to the experiences of whites. It is entirely necessary for white people to analyse their own position in social hierarchies of race if they are to act in an effective and consistently anti-racist manner; simply externalising race issues onto The System denies the fact that The System is not a monolith floating above and beyond society, but the aggregate of every life within that society, and so is not something that you can remove yourself from, however well-meaning and enlightened you may personally consider yourself to be. If that suggestion makes you feel "guilty", then I can only suggest that you need to do a bit more self-criticism.

[tachosomoza]

Well, yeah. Colour-conciousness is absolutely fundamental to any effective anti-racist thought or action; "colour-blindness" is an exclusive white luxury, and its actually a sign of progress that liberals are coming to realise that.

Look, I don't think these guys have it quite right- although I wouldn't go so far as to dust off that unimaginative old bugbear of "white guilt", whatever that means this week- but the essential case they're making, that white people actually need to address out own position within racial hierarchies, rather than simply waiting for people of colour to explain to us what is objectively obvious, is a solid one, and an important one. Perhaps forming an actual organisation to that end is a step further than this needs to go, but it's not exactly like the far-left is exactly unfamiliar with the formation of redundant political groupings. Certainly, describing this as "segregation and division" is witlessness at best, and more like simple dishonesty.

I disagree. I think that we would do well as Leftists to take steps to show how racism is a social construct that has been exploited by the elite to keep the proletariat divided, and take steps to eliminate it within all communities. It seems to me that organizing a group of "whites" who sit around and bathe in white guilt and shame is extremely counterproductive and distracts from the main goal, which is the overthrow of this system and the eventual classless society. Again, groups like AWARE-LA turn off European ethnics whose families haven't been in this country long enough to face the fire for slavery, and often turn them away from leftist philosophies to reactionary groups like the AB, NWF, etc.

[Tim Finnegan]

I disagree. I think that we would do well as Leftists to take steps to show how racism is a social construct that has been exploited by the elite to keep the proletariat divided, and take steps to eliminate it within all communities.
That's a broad outline, yes, but it leaves the details rather fuzzy. You can just step out the door and "eliminate racism", you need to take a good hard look it at as an ideological system, and at yourself and how you slot into that system. That's what these people are, however clumsily, trying to do, and which you seem keen to avoid.


It seems to me that organizing a group of "whites" who sit around and bathe in white guilt and shame is extremely counterproductive and distracts from the main goal, which is the overthrow of this system and the eventual classless society.
Sure, but is that what they're doing? This seems to me an assumption that you have made on superficial grounds, not as the product of an authentic interrogation of the ideas which this group, and, more broadly, this support of effort are based upon.


Again, groups like AWARE-LA turn off European ethnics whose families haven't been in this country long enough to face the fire for slavery, and often turn them away from leftist philosophies to reactionary groups like the AB, NWF, etc.
"Save the halfwit proles from themselves" is not a progressive argument.

[tachosomoza]

That's a broad outline, yes, but it leaves the details rather fuzzy. You can just step out the door and "eliminate racism", you need to take a good hard look it at as an ideological system, and at yourself and how you slot into that system. That's what these people are, however clumsily, trying to do, and which you seem keen to avoid.


Sure, but is that what they're doing? This seems to me an assumption that you have made on superficial grounds, not as the product of an authentic interrogation of the ideas which this group, and, more broadly, this support of effort are based upon.


"Save the halfwit proles from themselves" is not a progressive argument.


From my experiences with groups composed of "anti-racist" whites, the vast majority of them are condescending and preachy and swallowed by that monster called white guilt. If there's going to be an effective anti racist movement, we must have an organized, comprehensive front composed of all "races", that fights racism on ALL fronts, regardless of who the racist or who the victim is. I'll say it again, there cannot be a segregated "anti racist movement". I'll leave it at that.

[Tim Finnegan]

From my experiences with groups composed of "anti-racist" whites, the vast majority of them are condescending and preachy and swallowed by that monster called white guilt. If there's going to be an effective anti racist movement, we must have an organized, comprehensive front composed of all "races", that fights racism on ALL fronts, regardless of who the racist or who the victim is. I'll say it again, there cannot be a segregated "anti racist movement". I'll leave it at that.

6. AWARE is a supplement to, not a replacement for, multi-racial dialogues between white people and people of color. It’s important that white people give space in their lives to learning from and bearing witness to people of color’s experiences of racism.
Did you actually read your own post, or did the wild flailing of your knee prevent you from getting a good look at the screen?

[tachosomoza]

Did you actually read your own post, or did the wild flailing of your knee prevent you from getting a good look at the screen?

I was distracted. Maybe I am jumping the gun a bit, but still, I think we can agree that these well intentioned people are being unintentionally ridiculous and are undermining and tokenizing the antiracist movement.

[Tim Finnegan]

I was distracted. Maybe I am jumping the gun a bit, but still, I think we can agree that these well intentioned people are being unintentionally ridiculous and are undermining and tokenizing the antiracist movement.
"Unintentionally ridiculous", but I wouldn't go so far as to say that they are somehow undermining anti-racism. It seems to me like they run a far higher risk of simple irrelevance.

[Coach Trotsky]

Rightly, we combat the class-collaborationist pro-capitalist "White" identity, but then what?

Why do we leave an identity vacuum for working people of European ethnic origin? Why do we leave workers of European origin with only the choice to embrace the reactionary "White" identity (and all that stands for) or the alternative of "your people have no identity except as interchangeable cogs in the international proletariat, like it or not"? Is it really that hard to grasp which choice they will tend to make between those options, when forced to choose? Are we playing into reactionary "White" identity paradigm adoption by Euro-ethnic working people, despite our aims and intentions?

Honestly, there is no comparative policy regarding the working people of other ethnic groups. I don't think I've every heard of Leftists telling working people of non-European origin that their ethnic/national identities were inherently reactionary, and that the only acceptable identity for them is 'internationalist proletarian". They wouldn't dare be that direct and consistent, certainly not when speaking with non-European ethnic working people in person. Why is this the case?

Can't we do better as revolutionary socialists on this critically important question? Isn't it our duty to strive to do better by the ENTIRE proletariat?

[tachosomoza]

Rightly, we combat the class-collaborationist pro-capitalist "White" identity, but then what?

Why do we leave an identity vacuum for working people of European ethnic origin? Why do we leave workers of European origin with only the choice to embrace the reactionary "White" identity (and all that stands for) or the alternative of "your people have no identity except as interchangeable cogs in the international proletariat, like it or not"? Is it really that hard to grasp which choice they will tend to make between those options, when forced to choose? Are we playing into reactionary "White" identity paradigm adoption by Euro-ethnic working people, despite our aims and intentions?

Honestly, there is no comparative policy regarding the working people of other ethnic groups. I don't think I've every heard of Leftists telling working people of non-European origin that their ethnic/national identities were inherently reactionary, and that the only acceptable identity for them is 'internationalist proletarian". They wouldn't dare be that direct and consistent, certainly not when speaking with non-European ethnic working people in person. Why is this the case?

Can't we do better as revolutionary socialists on this critically important question? Isn't it our duty to strive to do better by the ENTIRE proletariat?

We have to get rid of the notion that non-European peoples can do no wrong and are always victims. That's what fucks up a lot of people.

[genstrike]

I really don't see the problem with this group, aside from the kitschy acronym (forced acronyms is a pet peeve of mine)

It looks to be just a network of white people conscious of their privilege (to all 19 year old white socialists on revleft: yes, white privilege exists), working to become better anti-racists.

Given that most revolutionary organizations I'm familiar with tend to be pretty white and we are living in a society structured by racism and white privilege, consciousness of white privilege and white anti-racist practice should be fairly important to any revolutionary movement.

[The_Outernationalist]

I think it's a step in the right direction...except that I think the very concept of a "white race" should be dismantled, as it exists about as much as a unified "asian race" does: only in the recesses of the small-minds of lackeys who exacerbate such ignorance.

[Tim Finnegan]

I think it's a step in the right direction...except that I think the very concept of a "white race" should be dismantled, as it exists about as much as a unified "asian race" does: only in the recesses of the small-minds of lackeys who exacerbate such ignorance.
There's a difference between claiming race as a biological reality and acknowledging race as a sociological one.

[tachosomoza]

There's a difference between claiming race as a biological reality and acknowledging race as a sociological one.

I think most leftists (if not Americans in general) recognize that race is a sociological reality. AWARE is beating a dead horse and alienating people.

[Tim Finnegan]

I think most leftists (if not Americans in general) recognize that race is a sociological reality. AWARE is beating a dead horse and alienating people.
Quite possibly, but that has nothing to do with my previous comment.

[genstrike]

I think most leftists (if not Americans in general) recognize that race is a sociological reality. AWARE is beating a dead horse and alienating people.

Yes, race is a social construct, just like gender, class, etc. But that doesn't mean that the best way to fight racism is pretend to be colourblind - that's not fighting racism, that's trying to sweep it under the carpet.

As for beating a dead horse, I hate to break it to you but racism is a horse which is still very much alive.

[tachosomoza]

Yes, race is a social construct, just like gender, class, etc. But that doesn't mean that the best way to fight racism is pretend to be colourblind - that's not fighting racism, that's trying to sweep it under the carpet.

As for beating a dead horse, I hate to break it to you but racism is a horse which is still very much alive.

I know racism is still alive. I experience it every day. But, do you think that stirring up white guilt and acting as if minorities are incapable of exhibiting racism is the best way to smash it?

[Tim Finnegan]

I know racism is still alive. I experience it every day. But, do you think that stirring up white guilt and acting as if minorities are incapable of exhibiting racism is the best way to smash it?
Do you think that is what this group is doing?

[Leftsolidarity]

I know racism is still alive. I experience it every day. But, do you think that stirring up white guilt and acting as if minorities are incapable of exhibiting racism is the best way to smash it?

I don't see why you keep using "white guilt" when refering to this group. Your statements on this group are not based on any facts only your opinionated stories of how they might be. One can acknowledge that white privilege exists with being on a "white guilt" trip.

They also never claim that minorities are incapable of racism. They are saying that whites have dominance and that we as white people also need to organize to fix that.

[genstrike]

I know racism is still alive. I experience it every day. But, do you think that stirring up white guilt and acting as if minorities are incapable of exhibiting racism is the best way to smash it?

That depends, when did you stop eating babies?

[genstrike]

Also, I should add that it is very difficult for most people of colour to exhibit racism. Individual prejudice, sure, but racism requires actual power, and is part of an actual system of oppression. I can't think of any place in North America where people of colour have power and have created a system of oppression where white people are systematically oppressed.

[Leftsolidarity]

Also, I should add that it is very difficult for most people of colour to exhibit racism. Individual prejudice, sure, but racism requires actual power, and is part of an actual system of oppression. I can't think of any place in North America where people of colour have power and have created a system of oppression where white people are systematically oppressed.


I'd have to disagree with that. Being racist doesn't mean you also have power.

[Coach Trotsky]

Also, I should add that it is very difficult for most people of colour to exhibit racism. Individual prejudice, sure, but racism requires actual power, and is part of an actual system of oppression. I can't think of any place in North America where people of colour have power and have created a system of oppression where white people are systematically oppressed.

But do you blame proletarian "white people" for this systematic oppression of "people of color", or do you instead fight the whole system that racism protects and serves?
In fact, why do we even play into the whole "White" identity paradigm by calling European-ethnics "White", after considering the historical origins of "Whiteness", and recognizing that European-ethnic working people have NO COMMON NATION with the bourgeoisie?
I will not call a Euro-ethnic proletarian "White". To the degree that "White" is his or her identity, to the degree that my labeling them "White" contributes to that reactionary "White" identity, we have failed to break them from the bourgeoisie and its system (and its racism), and thus our anti-racism is effectively impotent. No, European-ethnic working people are NOT "White" and these so called "White nations" belong to and are ruled by the Euro-ethnic bourgeoisies ONLY, not the workers, not even in the so-called "good old days" historical revisionist mirages that the Right-wingers try to fool them with. It's time for Euro-ethnic working people to recognize that the class-collaborationist "White" identity is NOT their identity...it is an enemy reactionary identity that serves the capitalist class and their system.

All that being said, it is vital that we do NOT confuse opposition to the reactionary "White" identity with scapegoating of and opposition to the European-ethnic peoples altogether, especially the working people of European ethnic origins. We want European-ethnic working people (as with any and all other peoples) to fully break and become independent from the bourgeoisie and its system and ideologies; to align with, and stand in full revolutionary solidarity with, and to actively fight for the cause of the liberation all the workers and oppressed throughout the world (which obviously includes their own liberation from exploitation and oppression).

What I'm saying is that the fight against racism can only be made effectively and fully successfully through proletarian revolution and socialism...not that liberal crap that postures "anti-racist" while defending this very same capitalist system from which racism originates and for which racism serves. Don't be fooled or confused by this difference, Leftists. Revolutionary socialism suffers when we substitute the liberal's script instead of assert our own answers and solutions. Look all around you in this society...the evidence is right there, clear as day! You can't effectively defeat racism while still defend this system. You can't break the hold of the reactionary racist "White" identity and ideology upon European-ethnic working people while still labelling them "White" and acting as if it is their ethnicity (rather than the system and its racism) that is the problem. Bourgeois and petty bourgeois liberals do NOT fully effectively expose or oppose the systematic oppression of "people of color" or of anybody else for that matter, and indeed I'd even argue that they adapt to and opportunistically exploit symptoms of systematic racism and other oppressions for their own selfish benefit and NOT for the liberation of the oppressed.
When bourgeois and petty bourgeois liberals come posturing as "progressives" and "friends" of working people and the oppressed...WATCH YOUR WALLETS, BUYER BEWARE!

[tachosomoza]

Do you think that is what this group is doing?

Yes, essentially.


That depends, when did you stop eating babies?

Que?

[tachosomoza]

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa360/tacho6/AWARE-LA-TOSC-2010.jpg


White people experience the racial identity of “white” on a daily basis through white privilege and white supremacy, whether or not they are active supporters of these positions.
White identity cannot be renounced, eliminated, or destroyed- it is part of how people of European descent have been socialized in the U.S. and how they live in the U.S. day to day.
White people move in the world in both racist and anti-racist ways. However, white people’s racism and anti-racism is not always conscious or intentional.
In order for white people to be allies in ending the white supremacist system, the lived racial identity of white people must become associated with anti-racism and must be consistently conscious and intentional.
Radical white identity is the recognition that white identity can be an actively anti-racist identity.
Honestly, do you people think that some descendent of Bosnian or Polish immigrants whose just been laid off wants to hear this garbage coming from some bourgeois suburban liberal? I don't think so. Hell, even I think it's bullshit.

[Coach Trotsky]

A "white power elite"? Wait a second...is that Marxist class analysis? Or is it radical-posturing phaseology to cover bourgeois liberal bullshit distortions about the nature the capitalist system.

Where is revolutionary socialism being offered here as the needed solution?
It's NOT offered at all.

How long before this AWARE-LA group is telling its supporters to vote for the Dems and "get out the vote" for the Dems?

[tachosomoza]

A "white power elite"? Wait a second...is that Marxist class analysis? Or is it radical-posturing phaseology to cover bourgeois liberal bullshit distortions about the nature the capitalist system.

Where is revolutionary socialism being offered here as the needed solution?
It's NOT offered at all.

How long before this AWARE-LA group is telling its supporters to vote for the Dems and "get out the vote" for the Dems?

It's a phony group full of liberals. Leftists don't talk crap like this.

[Tim Finnegan]

Honestly, do you people think that some descendent of Bosnian or Polish immigrants whose just been laid off wants to hear this garbage coming from some bourgeois suburban liberal? I don't think so. Hell, even I think it's bullshit.
There's certainly a fair point here; I think that a lot of discussion of ethnicity in the US is too narrowly focused on race, without taking into account other ethnic divisions, which means that the experiences and social status of people who will be very widely regarded as "white-but-not-really", such as Eastern Europeans or white Latin Americans, are very poorly dealt with, often to the point of total exclusion from the discussion.

Also, as has been observed, the whole program has an utterly desperate lack of class analysis, even a "soft" sociological, liberal class analysis, let alone a "hard" economic, leftists one. As I said, I'm certainly not advocating for this project, I just think that some of the criticism so far owes too much to stereotypes (or, I suppose it could be argued, archetypes) of white liberal anti-racism, and not enough to what was actually being said. (Certainly, "white guilt" is not a concept that we should really want to perpetuate, given its origins and general usage as a reactionary, crypto-racist rhetorical device.)

[tachosomoza]

There's certainly a fair point here; I think that a lot of discussion of ethnicity in the US is too narrowly focused on race, without taking into account other ethnic divisions, which means that the experiences and social status of people who will be very widely regarded as "white-but-not-really", such as Eastern Europeans or white Latin Americans, are very poorly dealt with, often to the point of total exclusion from the discussion.

Also, as has been observed, the whole program has an utterly desperate lack of class analysis, even a "soft" sociological, liberal class analysis, let alone a "hard" economic, leftists one. As I said, I'm certainly not advocating for this project, I just think that some of the criticism so far owes too much to stereotypes (or, I suppose it could be argued, archetypes) of white liberal anti-racism, and not enough to what was actually being said. (Certainly, "white guilt" is not a concept that we should really want to perpetuate, given its origins and general usage as a reactionary, crypto-racist rhetorical device.)

I can dig some of your points, Tim. In my anti-racist work, I try to get people to see how racism is tied into the big picture (oppression and exploitation from the bourgeois) and how prejudice on the part of revolutionaries "of color" can hold back and in some cases knock out otherwise strong revolutionary groups.