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Crux
4th June 2011, 01:45
Moscow Gay pride and the struggle for equal rights

04/06/2011
Facing repression, gay rights activists in Russia have no time for carnivals.
CWI reporters in Moscow
http://www.socialistworld.net/img/20110603Grafik3760900829607240587.jpg
Once again, as always at this time of year international TV has shown pictures of Gay Pride activists in Moscow being arrested and facing violence from the far right and police. But the TV reporters rarely show what is really going on behind the photo shoots. This years campaigning for gay rights in Moscow has shown that the movement is divided, not just over tactics but over the political direction to be taken.

http://www.socialistworld.net/img/article/2011-06-03Grafik22465825845202067.jpg 22 May The March for Equality led by, amongst others, CWI members


Since its inception Moscow Gay Pride has alienated a significant layer of gay rights activists by its approach, which is based not on attempts to mobilize the widest layer of LGBT and uniting them in struggle with other groups who are discriminated against, in particular women. Instead it relies on a business PR approach, inviting well known international figures to participate in an elitist spectacle in the centre of the city that, in the way it is organized, can only lead to the arrest of its participants. It does nothing to win over public opinion, presenting itself instead as a small persecuted minority fighting against the rest of society. As one of their organizers blogged: It is better to have 2 activists and a thousand journalists than 1000 activists and 2 journalists. Their arrogant and elitist approach was demonstrated on a TV talk show just days before gay pride when the main organizer Nikolai Alekseev stated that he spits on what the majority of the population think. (Actually anyone who reads his blog can find comments critical of Jews and Lady Gaga, and deriding the illegal prostitute who was used to discredit Dominique Strauss Kahn.)

http://www.socialistworld.net/img/article/2011-06-03Grafik5969094524252266930.jpg 29th May Gay Pride


This years Gay pride was no different. Tens of thousands of euros were spent to bring people such as Peter Tatchell from Britain, U.S. gay rights activists Dan Choi and Andy Thayer along with Frances Louis-George Tin. The last three were detained by the police along with about thirty others, about half of whom were extreme right wingers who had tried to attack Gay Pride.
The reality is that the Gay Pride movement in Russia is in crisis. It was only able to mobilize a couple of dozen people after all, whats the point in turning up for a demo just to get arrested if it makes no dent in public opinion? The depths of the crisis was demonstrated by the behavior of its leader Nikolai Alekseev, who didnt turn up, claiming he had hurt his foot on a TV talk show two nights before.

http://www.socialistworld.net/img/article/2011-06-03Grafik8987821269290424082.jpg 26th May Zhenya Otto on TV show Duel


The reality is he hurt more than his foot on the show Duel. His pride was badly damaged. The programme has two opponents standing either side of a barrier, debating and answering audience questions. Faced with a leading member of Putins United Russia party and an audience of right wingers and religious fanatics, he proved completely unable to put forward a coherent argument. Even when he was asked to state what it was that the Gay Pride March wanted, all he could do was quote the European Court of Human Rights decision that it was wrong to ban the march. Faced with a further provocative question he lost his temper and stormed off the stage.
Fortunately a member of the CWI, Zhenya Otto was able to jump up and take his place. The effect she had was electric. Within about a three minute appearance on the show, which was watched by 3 million people, she was able to announce she was from the CWI, shut the religious bigots up, explain the campaign was not about the right of LGBTs to hold carnivals but part of the struggle of all oppressed - gays, women, workers, immigrants for their rights and equal rights. The Russian CWI site almost crashed overnight as over 6000 people tried to find out more about Zhenyas position and the CWI. (The show can be watched on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvoPuswCqu0 Zhenyas intervention starts after about 50 minutes.)



Later Alekseev bitterly commented: "The anti capitalist, thank God, did not speak for a whole round. Here I should say what is important. I am a fully committed supporter of the capitalist system. I am against communism, socialism, equality, the unification of workers of the whole world and other paranoid nonsense. Capitalism will win and with it Gay Pride.
The fact is that there is a growing movement of genuine gay activists who relate their struggle to the campaign for equal rights and see victory through uniting with other oppressed groups in a struggle against capitalism. Just days before Gay Pride, a successful March for equality of over eighty LGBT, womens rights and socialist activists managed to march the length of one of Moscows main streets. The CWI played a key role in organizing this event
The authorities had turned down permission for the march, saying it would meet a hostile response in society and it could have a negative effect of the psychological health of children and teenagers. Such concerns did not, of course, prevent the authorities from permitting a fascist march intended to whip up anti gay sentiments. But unlike Gay Pride, the March for Equality did not set out to get people arrested. Participants met at a secret place, the route was scouted before hand to spot police, and later in the march when the police turned up, a well practiced dispersal plan was used.
As it marched, the protesters chanted, amongst others, No discrimination by sex or orientation!, No to discrimination, yes to emancipation!, Down with fascism, homophobia and sexism!, My body is my business, Equal rights with no compromise, The working class is united, dont let the racists split it Just as 2 and 2 is four, only struggle gains you rights and Down with capitalism.



Clearly whilst Gay Pride is becoming more isolated, support for such events as the March for Equality, also now an annual event, is growing. A key role in this march is played by members of the CWI, who ensure that socialist ideas are clearly at the fore. They do not restrict the struggle for LGBT rights to a once a year media event, but campaign all the year round against all forms of discrimination, repression and exploitation showing, in the process, that in common struggle, ordinary workers lose their prejudices and stereotypes. Unlike Alekseev, who thinks that capitalism will win, many young LGBT activists are seeing that discrimination against them is linked to the injustices in society as a whole and are drawing socialist conclusions. The CWI in Russia, by linking the struggle for equal rights to that against capitalism and for socialism is convinced that this is the only strategy that can build the movement and lead to victory.

Blackscare
4th June 2011, 02:08
Interesting, would it be safe to say that the CWI and other Trot groups are growing in Russia? It would make sense as a new generation comes to the front that at the same time is struggling to understand what has become of Russia and has not grown up with the demonization of Trotsky.


This also seems to serve as a more potent example of the Communist movement linking up with the LGBT rights movement without succumbing to crude identity politics, as in the west oftentimes. Or perhaps qualitatively their strategy is no different than other Left groups attempting the same thing in other countries, but appears more successful because of some other factors specific to Russia.

TheGodlessUtopian
4th June 2011, 02:12
Seems like an interesting take on Pride.I would imagine that this approach will fail in due time and be replaced by the sort of activism seen in the U.S and elsewhere.

P.S to the OP: You don't need Gay Pride in quotes...even if it is elitist it is still a pride demonstration.

RedSunRising
4th June 2011, 02:21
Interesting, would it be safe to say that the CWI and other Trot groups are growing in Russia? It would make sense as a new generation comes to the front that at the same time is struggling to understand what has become of Russia and has not grown up with the demonization of Trotsky.
.

Interesting that the Russian media is allowing the CWI to shine.

Interesting also the attack the Pride march and the promotion of some other that isnt specifically about gay liberation (especially considering the horrible record that the CWI has on this issue).

Blackscare
4th June 2011, 02:25
I would imagine that this approach will fail in due time and be replaced by the sort of activism seen in the U.S and elsewhere.

What makes you say this? What about the US LGBT movement et al is so superior? I don't know if you're a Marxist, but Marxists tend to believe that material circumstances, that vary from place to place, must be taken into account.


What you have in Russia, unlike more firmly entrenched "first world" bourgeois states, is the combination of a heavy-handed and especially socially reactionary oligarchy (which does not hold a tradition of western liberal values that have allowed "our" LGBT movements the breathing room to operate that they have had) and large wellspring of continued anti-capitalist sentiment. This seems like the perfect formula for Russia, actually.


Also, it's the type of western activism that you say will one day overtake the CWI's efforts that crashed and burned, leaving the CWI et al to take the reigns in the first place!

What makes you think that a meek liberal movement parroting other meek liberal movements in the west is somehow better suited to such a more hostile and difficult struggle? What makes you think that it is somehow better or more effective to fight this sort of struggle in isolation, rather than as a facet of the anti-capitalism movement that still garners considerable support in Russia?


Your seeming assumption that american or western practices are somehow inherently better or more effective smacks of western chauvinism, and totally disregards the social, economic, legal, and political factors that lead to both the past success in the west and currently desperate situation in Russia.

What worked in the US will not necessarily work in Russia, nor should we as Communists be hoping for such a thing to happen, as it would mean seceding fertile ground to impotent liberals without a broader vision.

RedSunRising
4th June 2011, 02:32
What makes you say this? What about the US LGBT movement et al is so superior? I don't know if you're a Marxist, but Marxists tend to believe that material circumstances, that vary from place to place, must be taken into account.


Being out in Russia takes a lot of guts. It is an extremely homophobic society and the conditions of homosexuals are getting worse not better. The tankie psuedo-Communist generally are homophobic. It would be very interesting to hear what Russian Maoists or Anarchists think about this.

Blackscare
4th June 2011, 02:32
Interesting that the Russian media is allowing the CWI to shine.

Woa, they let her hop on and finish a round on a debate show for 3 minutes when the capitalist liberal stormed off stage, clear indication here that the CWI are bourgie agents :rolleyes:




Interesting also the attack the Pride march and the promotion of some other that isnt specifically about gay liberation

Well, considering that the CWI was able to muster about 10X as many people to a march that correctly treated LGBT issues as a facet alongside other struggles, I can't say that this isn't a good thing. Actually this is a wonderful strategy that seems to working for them. Or perhaps you'd rather that every left-wing plank be dissected and divided from the rest? Perhaps it's better to have a segregated LGBT issue only march led my liberals with no hope of joining their struggle to a larger cause? :rolleyes:



(especially considering the horrible record that the CWI has on this issue).

They seem to be doing pretty well on it here, where are you M-Ls doing anything better in Russia?

TheGodlessUtopian
4th June 2011, 02:38
I say so because in America,unlike in Russia,my queer brother and sisters are able to openly enlist in the military (hardly progressive but its something),have special interest groups and lobbies fighting on their behalf,are able to hold pride rallies without being arrested and fought by reactionaries,and have had some success in bringing about gay marriage in a few states.

All of this is small and there is still work to be done,but the small elitist approach in Russia looks destined to fail.American approach to this has gained some momentum,while Russian statics have gotten them onto the brink of failing.

But yes,I agree,I would like to hear a queer Russian's view on this.

RedSunRising
4th June 2011, 02:40
Woa, they let her hop on and finish a round on a debate show for 3 minutes when the capitalist liberal stormed off stage, clear indication here that the CWI are bourgie agents :rolleyes:

Well, considering that the CWI was able to muster about 10X as many people to a march that correctly treated LGBT issues as a facet alongside other struggles, I can't say that this isn't a good thing. Actually this is a wonderful strategy that seems to working for them. Or perhaps you'd rather that every left-wing plank be dissected and divided from the rest? Perhaps it's better to have a segregated LGBT issue only march led my liberals with no hope of joining their struggle to a larger cause? :rolleyes:

They seem to be doing pretty well on it here, where are you M-Ls doing anything better in Russia?

Oh people just hopping on TV shows....;) Dont be so naive.

According to them, but how much was it about gay rights, anything to do with gay rights would bring swarms of fascists and theocrats in Russia, where were they?

As I said the "Marxist-Leninist" parties in Russia have a horrible record on this. The Russian Maoist Party however has been pro-gay liberation from its beginning in the mid 90s. Russian Anarchists also have a good record on this.

Blackscare
4th June 2011, 02:53
I say so because in America,unlike in Russia,my queer brother and sisters are able to openly enlist in the military (hardly progressive but its something),have special interest groups and lobbies fighting on their behalf,are able to hold pride rallies without being arrested and fought by reactionaries,and have had some success in bringing about gay marriage in a few states.


That's all well and good but if you had read my posts you'd understand that what I am saying is these accomplishments came about in such away because of drastically different conditions than those in Russia. To say that, because these movements met with success in the US those same tactics are applicable everywhere is nonsense, it ignores all of the material factors at work. It's like saying Maoist people's war lead in large part by the peasantry should be implemented in the US because it worked in China, it just makes no sense, the situations are totally different.


All of this is small and there is still work to be done,but the small elitist approach in Russia looks destined to fail.

The whole point of the article is that the small elitest approach, as practiced by the liberals, failed and is being replaced with a broader and inclusive movement led in part by the CWI. Did you read the article? Thats like, literally the entire point.


American approach to this has gained some momentum,while Russian statics have gotten them onto the brink of failing.

Russian liberal attempts to parrot american liberal attempts have failed and are being replaced. Again, that was the point of the article.

Blackscare
4th June 2011, 03:01
Oh people just hopping on TV shows....;) Dont be so naive.

It's easy to make conspiratorial accusations with a wink and a nod here and there, but how about some sort of explanation of why a privately owned capitalist media enterprise, representing the Russian bourgeoisie, would purposely arrange for an anti-capitalist to get on air? And if they did, why then only give her three minutes after a capitalist stormed off stage? What, did they somehow know that the other guy would leave at that time? Their plan to maintain and strengthen capitalist hegemony somehow includes giving an anti-capitalist airtime? I mean, just give me a plausible explanation of your concerns at least.




According to them, but how much was it about gay rights, anything to do with gay rights would bring swarms of fascists and theocrats in Russia, where were they?



The authorities had turned down permission for the march, saying it would meet a hostile response in society and it could have a negative effect of the psychological health of children and teenagers. Such concerns did not, of course, prevent the authorities from permitting a fascist march intended to whip up anti gay sentiments. But unlike Gay Pride, the March for Equality did not set out to get people arrested. Participants met at a secret place, the route was scouted before hand to spot police, and later in the march when the police turned up, a well practiced dispersal plan was used.

Emphasis mine. Seems that they took certain precautions not to get into this sort of situation, because unlike rich liberal dillholes they probably can't afford to be arrested to make a "statement".

Frankly, unless you can come up with something better than this lame argument, it just sounds like more of your same paranoid conspiracy theories about the CWI.

Crux
4th June 2011, 03:37
I say so because in America,unlike in Russia,my queer brother and sisters are able to openly enlist in the military (hardly progressive but its something),have special interest groups and lobbies fighting on their behalf,are able to hold pride rallies without being arrested and fought by reactionaries,and have had some success in bringing about gay marriage in a few states.

All of this is small and there is still work to be done,but the small elitist approach in Russia looks destined to fail.American approach to this has gained some momentum,while Russian statics have gotten them onto the brink of failing.

But yes,I agree,I would like to hear a queer Russian's view on this.
Indeed, I agree that an elitist approach is bound to fail. If you read the article again you will see that is is not the CWI and our allies that are acting the elitists though, but the pro-capitalist liberals. Also there is no need to romanticise the situation in the west or use it as a vindication of a liberal strategy. Also many of our comrades, particularly in moscow, are LGBT. If you remember the comrades were attacked by the KPRF on Mayday for having LGBT-flags and raisning demands related to homophobia.

Crux
4th June 2011, 03:46
Interesting that the Russian media is allowing the CWI to shine.

Interesting also the attack the Pride march and the promotion of some other that isnt specifically about gay liberation (especially considering the horrible record that the CWI has on this issue).
So your secterianism makes you unable to grasp a political argument? Fascinating.
Those blinds must be really tight over your eyes, comrade. May I suggest reading the article again, if you indeed hae read it at all, this time without the blinds?
See I'll even make it easier on you by quoting the relevant part:
The authorities had turned down permission for the march, saying it would meet a hostile response in society and it could have a negative effect of the psychological health of children and teenagers”. Such concerns did not, of course, prevent the authorities from permitting a fascist march intended to whip up anti gay sentiments. But unlike Gay Pride, the March for Equality did not set out to get people arrested. Participants met at a secret place, the route was scouted before hand to spot police, and later in the march when the police turned up, a well practiced dispersal plan was used.
As it marched, the protesters chanted, amongst others, No discrimination by sex or orientation!, No to discrimination, yes to emancipation!, Down with fascism, homophobia and sexism!, “My body is my business”, “Equal rights with no compromise”, “The working class is united, don’t let the racists split it” “Just as 2 and 2 is four, only struggle gains you rights” and “Down with capitalism”.

As for the CWI's record on LGBT rights these are just the articles that's been up on socialistworld.net: http://www.socialistworld.net/view/140
I could find you more, or gie a rundown of our work here in sweden, but since you were just out to smear that would be a waste of time.

Nolan
4th June 2011, 03:46
Good to see someone on the left is taking an active role in this.

Unrelated, but what's the relationship between the CWI in Russia and the RCWP-RPC?

Crux
4th June 2011, 03:57
Good to see someone on the left is taking an active role in this.

Unrelated, but what's the relationship between the CWI in Russia and the RCWP-RPC?
A while back I asked one of the comrades about it and he said there's been "some joint work where possible", but I don't know much more than that.

Die Neue Zeit
4th June 2011, 05:54
^^^ Finally, you say something about relations between the CWI in Russia and the center of gravity for left unity in Russia and the near abroad, the RCWP-RPC.

Crux
4th June 2011, 08:59
^^^ Finally, you say something about relations between the CWI in Russia and the center of gravity for left unity in Russia and the near abroad, the RCWP-RPC.
Uh. Yeah. Right. No dis against Nolan, but at least he says it's unrelated, whereas you goes "finally". Says something about how off you usually are. Anyway I'e said everything I know on the subject.

Kiev Communard
4th June 2011, 09:00
Good to see someone on the left is taking an active role in this.

Unrelated, but what's the relationship between the CWI in Russia and the RCWP-RPC?

I fear RCWP-RPC generally would consider LGBT movement a "symptom of petty-bourgeois decadence that is foreign to Russian proletariat", or something like that. Besides, there were some insane fringe groups in this party (like "Proriv" ultra-Stalinists (http://www.proriv.ru/), who, among other things, denounce Einsteinian Theory of Relativity as "bourgeois idealist") that were (or still are) openly homophobic.

Red Future
4th June 2011, 11:43
I fear RCWP-RPC generally would consider LGBT movement a "symptom of petty-bourgeois decadence that is foreign to Russian proletariat", or something like that. Besides, there were some insane fringe groups in this party (like "Proriv" ultra-Stalinists (http://www.proriv.ru/), who, among other things, denounce Einsteinian Theory of Relativity as "bourgeois idealist") that were (or still are) openly homophobic.

Born In The USSR is a member of that party..you may want to ask him?

Die Neue Zeit
4th June 2011, 16:40
I fear RCWP-RPC generally would consider LGBT movement a "symptom of petty-bourgeois decadence that is foreign to Russian proletariat", or something like that. Besides, there were some insane fringe groups in this party (like "Proriv" ultra-Stalinists (http://www.proriv.ru/), who, among other things, denounce Einsteinian Theory of Relativity as "bourgeois idealist") that were (or still are) openly homophobic.

There is room, comrade, for criticism of homophobic tendencies in the RCWP-RPC. My Politics thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/russian-left-unity-t155794/index.html), however, was a reasonable anti-Trotsky suggestion for the organization to resolve the tendency war and left unity questions in Russia and the near abroad in their favour.

Omsk
4th June 2011, 16:43
The entire fiasco that was the flower grounding on the memorial of the fallen Soviet soldiers and the fight between homosexuals and ultra-right-wingers was simply a disgrace and a spit on the graves of the people who gave their lives.


Such a disgrace...

Тачанка
4th June 2011, 17:05
The entire fiasco that was the flower grounding on the memorial of the fallen Soviet soldiers and the fight between homosexuals and ultra-right-wingers was simply a disgrace and a spit on the graves of the people who gave their lives.


Such a disgrace...

Yeah, such a disgrace... all the power Stalin put into his struggle for LGBT rights...




not

Omsk
4th June 2011, 18:02
Why are you putting Stalin into this?This has nothing to do with him,or his policies.
It has to do with the fact that these people put shame on the many who died in the war against the invading Hitlerites and western collaborators.

Blackscare
4th June 2011, 18:08
Why are you putting Stalin into this?This has nothing to do with him,or his policies.
It has to do with the fact that these people put shame on the many who died in the war against the invading Hitlerites and western collaborators.

By that I hope you mean the ultra-rights, not the LGBT activists?

Delenda Carthago
4th June 2011, 18:36
On the contrary, 50 nazis that tryed to stop the Athens Gay Pride got their asses runned over by 5.000 demostators 2 hours ago. They got more than 100 eggs throwed at them and they didnt do NOTHING. They standed still trying to act hard as usual, but they did nothing.

Omsk
4th June 2011, 22:38
By that I hope you mean the ultra-rights, not the LGBT activists?

Well,although you could say the activists should have guesses it is going to be problematic,the blame is on the ultra-rightists,of course.

Red Future
4th June 2011, 22:43
On the contrary, 50 nazis that tryed to stop the Athens Gay Pride got their asses runned over by 5.000 demostators 2 hours ago. They got more than 100 eggs throwed at them and they didnt do NOTHING. They standed still trying to act hard as usual, but they did nothing.

Nazis getting egged...this happened to the BNP too not so long ago

Crux
5th June 2011, 16:13
There is room, comrade, for criticism of homophobic tendencies in the RCWP-RPC. My Politics thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/russian-left-unity-t155794/index.html), however, was a reasonable anti-Trotsky suggestion for the organization to resolve the tendency war and left unity questions in Russia and the near abroad in their favour.
No.

Delenda Carthago
5th June 2011, 19:05
Nazis getting egged...this happened to the BNP too not so long ago
its funny cause the Golden Dawn party is Chrisi Avgi in greek. If you turn it to Chrisa Avga, means golden eggs, which is the most famous egg company in Greece...:laugh: