Another Hero in the Socialist Pantheon Falls

[S.Artesian]

Wall Street Journal June 2, 2011:

Belarus appealed to the International Monetary Fund for a loan of as much as $8 billion, a signal of the authoritarian president's growing desperation to stave off the country's most serious financial crisis since the fall of the Soviet Union....

...Belarus's traditional sponsor, Russia, has refused a substantial bailout package as it pushes President Alexander Lukashenko to sell it some major state-owned assets....

Analysts said Belarus's finances have been drained by a nagging trade deficit and worsened by higher fuel prices from Russia....



Down goes Frazier! I mean Caesar.

[Toppler]

May I direct you here? http://www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?f=133&t=48834&start=0

http://www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?f=117&p=847728

The first discussion is a Belarussian writing about how it really is in Belarussia and the second one discusses the incoming economical crisis.

Anyways if the Belarus "crisis" really meant the end of Lukashenko, then Putin would've been over long ago, as the economical and social conditions in Russia are far, far worse. Unlike in other post-Soviet (post-Soviet, not post-communist in general, so don't bring up how Czechia, Slovenia, Slovakia or Poland are doing fine now), the standard of living has actually increased in Belarus up until now.

But I know that closet liberals on this site will cheer on "impending freedom" (even through this is an economical crisis not an uprising). As the guy in that discussion says, police, while being brutal to political demonstrators, is actually way friendlier and responsive than Russian or any other CIS police for that matter. Belarus has the highest Internet penetration of the CIS, 35-38 percents. Belarussian pensioners still recieve decent pensions, workers recieve decent wages, nobody's going to exchange this for Russia style monopolistic capitalism, Czechoslovakia 1985-1989 was in a deep economical crisis too, yet it was still better than 1989-1999 period so... As Bulbash says, it is basically a mini-USSR, except less authoritarian, with full shops, ipods and Internet.

But Belarus isn't "true socialism" so hurray freedom!

Lukashenko is no Gaddafi or that Syrian dictator. His biggest "crime" yet was letting demonstrators beaten by the police a few times. He does not order aircraft to fire on people. I am willing to accept an autocrat if he prevents the typical post-Soviet private capitalist degeneration.

In Slovakia, where I live, which is way more affluent than Belarus and even rural areas look more like America, many poorer pensioners are forced to scavenge food from trash cans because of the glorious liberal capitalist pensions. This is why I don't have any illusions about neoliberalism and capitalism and don't condemn any progressive nation just because it doesn't correspond to my fringe sect's vision of "pure socialism". That crap is reserved for suburban dreamers. I bring additional snacks to 2 of my classmates everyday, why? Because their boarding school does not give them enough food. Neoliberal style capitalism has worse effects on the common man than fascism (unless he belongs to a minority), and I, despite being from an affluent background, recognise it.

[S.Artesian]

May I direct you here? http://www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?f=133&t=48834&start=0

http://www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?f=117&p=847728

The first discussion is a Belarussian writing about how it really is in Belarussia and the second one discusses the incoming economical crisis.

Anyways if the Belarus "crisis" really meant the end of Lukashenko, then Putin would've been over long ago, as the economical and social conditions in Russia are far, far worse. Unlike in other post-Soviet (post-Soviet, not post-communist in general, so don't bring up how Czechia, Slovenia, Slovakia or Poland are doing fine now), the standard of living has actually increased in Belarus up until now.

But I know that closet liberals will cheer on "impending freedom" (even through this is an economical crisis not an uprising). Belarussian pensioners still recieve decent pensions, workers recieve decent wages, nobody's going to exchange this for Russia style monopolistic capitalism, Czechoslovakia 1985-1989 was in a deep economical crisis too, yet it was still better than 1989-1999 period so...

But Belarus isn't "true socialism" so hurray freedom!

No, I don't think it means the end of Lukashenko, no more than the IMF acquiescence of Mugabe meant the end of Mugabe. And that's all fine information you sent. Really patriotic and almost makes me want to salute, but what does that have to do with the economic squeeze going on right now, that will inevitably be dropped onto the shoulders of the general population.

I just think one or two people who think there is anything "progressive" about Lukashenko's mini-Brezhnevism might be interested in the fact that this micro-emperor has no olive leaves.

[Toppler]

I just think one or two people who think there is anything "progressive" about Lukashenko's mini-Brezhnevism might be interested in the fact that this micro-emperor has no olive leaves.

Sorry, but this has no substance at all.

And I wouldn't compare Mugabe who basically run his country into the ground with Lukashenko.

[S.Artesian]

Sorry, but this has no substance at all.

And I wouldn't compare Mugabe who basically run his country into the ground with Lukashenko.


Don't be sorry. And give the IMF time. They'll do their best to make Belarus look like Zimbabwe.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ I'll bite. :D

I wouldn't characterize today's Lukashenko as a "mini-Brezhnevite." He is more of a neo-Kadarite.

[Toppler]

Don't be sorry. And give the IMF time. They'll do their best to make Belarus look like Zimbabwe.

In that case, I sure hope Lukashenko does prevent this.

[Toppler]

^^^ I'll bite. :D

I wouldn't characterize today's Lukashenko as a "mini-Brezhnevite." He is more of a neo-Kadarite.

Yeah. And Kadar's Hungary is probably the most pleasant socialist regime ruled country that ever existed - that's why I for market socialism. I'd rather live in 1960s-1980s Hungary than in the US or UK today, despite simpler material conditions, everybody had enough of everything and there was no underclass. Besides that, they also producted my favourite cartoon that I watched as a kid and good rock music (Omega), so I am really a fan of Kadar era Hungary :).

What good is purist ultra-strict anti-revisionist Marxist-Leninist if it produces only austere shitholes with little food and a million pillboxes ala Albania?

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ I don't have a favourable opinion of the debt-incurring Kadar:

"There were several avenues to be taken within the 'Stalinist strategy.' At least a couple of those avenues would still be better than the NEP strategy, simply because of the Depression, and simply because of foreign hostilities (not just the Nazis)." (http://www.revleft.com/vb/bukharin-and-original-t155557/index.html?p=2129393)

[Toppler]

By the way, this is the first time people are hoarding goods for fears of inflation and scarcity in the shops. Guess what? Practically the entire socialist bloc had this as a way of life from circa 1979 (which was cca the time when shortages started) onwards. By the standards of this "crisis", the entire last 10 years of the socialist bloc were a heavy crisis.
Don't worry, Belarus will not fall.

[Toppler]

Well, entire socialist bloc except for Hungary and Yugoslavia. Whatever opinion about Kadar you might have, he was way better than any of his contemporary bloc "socialist leader" (meaning Brezhnevite gerontocrat). And life under Kadar was nothing like NEP era USSR trust me, and plus, Hungary was already a developed industrial country in the 1960s so there was no need of suicidal hyper-industrialization 5-year plans ala Stalin.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ Did you read the whole post, though? I laid out criticisms of the path taken within the overall "Stalinist strategy." I agree that like under Kadar was better than under even NEP Russia, given industrial levels, but he pursued private plots and not the state industrial farming that Lukashenko had a prior "red directorial" career in (leaving aside the disastrous "collective farms").

[pranabjyoti]

so there was no need of suicidal hyper-industrialization 5-year plans ala Stalin.
Well, you just forgot that due to that kind of "suicidal" 5-year plans, USSR survived the Nazi attack and moreover, which you (and many like you) just can not notice that the "more livable Hungary and Yugoslavia" flourished on the guard of mighty USSR. Unlike the "Stalinist" USSR, they rarely (probably never) taken real interest in revolutionary processes in other countries and helped in flourishing the struggle in Asia, Africa and Latin America.
You are certainly a good person if nothing in the world bother you except just your own well being.

[Tommy4ever]

Well, you just forgot that due to that kind of "suicidal" 5-year plans, USSR survived the Nazi attack and moreover, which you (and many like you) just can not notice that the "more livable Hungary and Yugoslavia" flourished on the guard of mighty USSR. Unlike the "Stalinist" USSR, they rarely (probably never) taken real interest in revolutionary processes in other countries and helped in flourishing the struggle in Asia, Africa and Latin America.
You are certainly a good person if nothing in the world bother you except just your own well being.

How did Yugoslavia live under the guard of ''mighty USSR''?

They lived under fear of invaision from ''mighty USSR''.

[Wanted Man]

How did Yugoslavia live under the guard of ''mighty USSR''?

They lived under fear of invaision from ''mighty USSR''.

Umm, no they didn't?

[pranabjyoti]

How did Yugoslavia live under the guard of ''mighty USSR''?

They lived under fear of invaision from ''mighty USSR''.
I don't have any idea about any kind of instability in the relation between Yugoslavia and USSR despite "ideological" differences. Most Russians and other soviet nations consider Slavs as something very close to them.

[S.Artesian]

In that case, I sure hope Lukashenko does prevent this.


Since he's the guy making the overture to the IMF, I seriously doubt his ability to prevent anything.

It's a class thing, you know? Takes class action by class conscious the prevent, change, initiate big changes, or prevent regression. Kind of the lesson, no? of the fSU and assorted allies.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

B-b-b-ut dear comrade Lukashenko is a fine Socialist, he would never go to teh IMF, this must be some awful sort of bourgeois propaganda that only a liberal Trotskyite fascist would believe.:rolleyes:

That aside, you'd think it'd now be in Russia's interest to form a union of Russia and Belorussia. IMF money for Lukashenko = greater political-economic involvement of NATO in Eastern Europe, and that's no good for anyone.

[punisa]

Umm, no they didn't?

Umm... they did.
Despite both unions pursuing socialism in their very own specific way, they were at the brink of war for almost a decade !
As soon as Stalin - Tito relationship went to hell the tensions were incredibly high. In fact many Yugoslav communists were jailed for their support of Stalin.
In these years Yugoslavia had much larger economic ties with the US then the socialist bloc.
Only after uncle Joe died did the things start to normalize again.

[Wanted Man]

Right, so after Yugoslavia left the "guard" of the USSR.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Down goes Frazier! I mean Caesar.

Leaving aside social revolution, by far the most politically revolutionary and sufficiently radical (short-term) social strata in countries and regions with proletarian demographic minorities, such as many if not most Third World countries, remains the "national"/"pan-national" petit-bourgeoisie (http://www.revleft.com/vb/urban-peasantry-developing-t154763/index.html).

Next.

[Jose Gracchus]

In b4 PSL apologetics for this "anti-imperialist" "half-socialist" state and its kingpin.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ Nah, the OP wanted me to bite and not them. I just went beyond biting and chewed. ;)