Marx's difficult writings

[VirgJans12]

Why did Karl Marx write so difficult?

I am studying and translating the Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital but it's going slow and difficult. His choice of words and explaining everything with a million examples and comparisons make it extremely difficult to read. Not to mention it's in a foreing language. And I usually don't read books. I am but a simple mind, not intelligentsia.

He was a smart man. But he missed his biggest audience: the proletariat. Because it's so difficult to read and most proletariats are ordinary men. Even if they'd be interested and pick these books up, they'd put them away because of the difficulty of the texts.

I think simpler versions would have made it easier for everyone to discover marxism, and it would have been wider spread.

What do you guys think?

[-marx-]

I had the same concern when I started reading Marx.
When reading Marxist texts (or any book really) I always have a dictionary on hand as I imagine a lot of people do/did to begin with. Marx and Engels used words in the 19th century that we just aren't taught today in highschool.
I don't feel he missed any audience, it's simply a matter of "times change" and so do the words we use and back in Marx time the proletariat would have been fine reading all his works.

A publisher should re translate Marx and use modern words where words appear that are pretty uncommon in todays usage. This could win over a lot of people possibly...

Incidentally, what language are your books in and what is your first language?

This might help you some:http://www.marxists.org/xlang/marx.htm

[Old Mole]

Well, sometimes it feels extremely tedious to read "difficult" writings, but then you can ask yourself why you read them. Probably because you think they are worth it. I have a bigger problem with people that oversimplificates Marxist theories and leftist ideas, people are only as smart as you make them. Proles (like myself) will only feel offended and alienated by people that dont think the proletariat has the mental capabilities to understand the world and needs to be leaded by some middle-class "elite".

I think that probably everyone that has read Marx for example at some point thinks that its to hard. But, as Marx mentions, if I remember correctly, in the beginning of Capital vol. i, starting to learn a new science is always difficult at first. Once you get over the initial long marsch you can reap the fruits of your labor.

[ZeroNowhere]

Marx didn't write difficult, he wrote complex. I can imagine that reading his books could be difficult if they weren't being read in one's first language, but otherwise I don't see much of great difficulty about it. The greater challenge is getting over preconceptions and such about Marx and coming to actually understand his works. But then, that's also quite fun.

[Tenka]

There's no shame in having a dictionary on hand and learning words. I think rather than rewriting, for example, the English translations of Marx into our contemporary degenerate English, we should learn the (mostly identical, after all) English of the day. I don't believe in archaisms, and I think the proletariat is given too little brain-cred. in the OP.

[Zav]

I think simpler versions would have made it easier for everyone to discover marxism, and it would have been wider spread.

What do you guys think?
Shakespeare's plays were written for the masses, and were written in modern English. Marx was German, and so translation from 1800s German to 21st century English is likely to cause some confusion. Also, his works were not meant to be flyers handed out by corner protesters. They are highly academic pieces that shred Capitalism into little tiny bits, chew them up, and spit them back out. They were not meant for the masses. Most Marxists on RevLeft probably haven't read Das Kapital, yet they understand the concepts within it well enough, because they were translated into laymen's terms for them.

[Rooster]

I have read worse books (mostly philosophical works). Capital was a breeze. I agree it's kinda tedious to begin with but it gets easier the more you read it, and it gets more enjoyable. I take it you're still on the first couple of chapters?


Most Marxists on RevLeft probably haven't read Das Kapital, yet they understand the concepts within it well enough

Heh, that's a contentious claim.

[Ned Kelly]

To begin with, I suggest you get your hands on a copy of 'What is Marxism?' by Emile Burns, or read it online, at the marxist internet archive

[VirgJans12]

To begin with, I suggest you get your hands on a copy of 'What is Marxism?' by Emile Burns, or read it online, at the marxist internet archive

Thanks, I'll have a look at that




There's no shame in having a dictionary on hand and learning words. I think rather than rewriting, for example, the English translations of Marx into our contemporary degenerate English, we should learn the (mostly identical, after all) English of the day. I don't believe in archaisms, and I think the proletariat is given too little brain-cred. in the OP.

I do read the books with a dictionary. But most people are just not focused or interested enough to read through old, complex texts. More and more people find anything that doesn't have quickly moving pictures uninteresting nowadays.

I don't think I give the proletariat too little brain-credit. The proletariat exists out of ordinary men and women. How many of them read books nowadays? let alone texts written in the 19th century and in such a difficult manner.




Marx didn't write difficult, he wrote complex. I can imagine that reading his books could be difficult if they weren't being read in one's first language, but otherwise I don't see much of great difficulty about it. The greater challenge is getting over preconceptions and such about Marx and coming to actually understand his works. But then, that's also quite fun.

Yeah, reading it in your first language is probably easier. But then still, I find texts written plain and simple much easier to remember. When written with a lot of fancy words and sentences within sentences, and, as Marx does, another sentence within that sentence, you're spending more time figuring out the puzzle than actually learning.




Well, sometimes it feels extremely tedious to read "difficult" writings, but then you can ask yourself why you read them. Probably because you think they are worth it. I have a bigger problem with people that oversimplificates Marxist theories and leftist ideas, people are only as smart as you make them. Proles (like myself) will only feel offended and alienated by people that dont think the proletariat has the mental capabilities to understand the world and needs to be leaded by some middle-class "elite".

I think that probably everyone that has read Marx for example at some point thinks that its to hard. But, as Marx mentions, if I remember correctly, in the beginning of Capital vol. i, starting to learn a new science is always difficult at first. Once you get over the initial long marsch you can reap the fruits of your labor.

It doesn't have to be oversimplified. But making it too difficult to read alienates the average proletariat. Us forum members are trying to get over the initial difficulty when learning this new science, but it's easier for a lot of people to get in when they don't have that learning curve. When they can just pick up a book and read their first stuff on Marxism. Then they might get hooked and learn more. Difficult texts might prevent a lot of people from initially reading their first Marxist texts.




I had the same concern when I started reading Marx.
When reading Marxist texts (or any book really) I always have a dictionary on hand as I imagine a lot of people do/did to begin with. Marx and Engels used words in the 19th century that we just aren't taught today in highschool.
I don't feel he missed any audience, it's simply a matter of "times change" and so do the words we use and back in Marx time the proletariat would have been fine reading all his works.

A publisher should re translate Marx and use modern words where words appear that are pretty uncommon in todays usage. This could win over a lot of people possibly...

Incidentally, what language are your books in and what is your first language?

This might help you some: (link removed, below 25 posts)

Even back in those days, only like 60% of the people were literate in the average European country. Most of them probably had more difficulty reading multiple sub sentences than we do now. Though the choice of words was probably easier, yeah.

The books are in English. My first language is Dutch. Although I'm quite good at it (even vocal), it's not the language I think in. I guess that makes a lot of difference. It'd be easier to process if it's in the same language as you think in.

But I'm translating them for myself, so I can really learn them in-depth. That part will help a lot.

[Rakhmetov]

Why did Karl Marx write so difficult?

I am studying and translating the Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital but it's going slow and difficult. His choice of words and explaining everything with a million examples and comparisons make it extremely difficult to read. Not to mention it's in a foreing language. And I usually don't read books. I am but a simple mind, not intelligentsia.

He was a smart man. But he missed his biggest audience: the proletariat. Because it's so difficult to read and most proletariats are ordinary men. Even if they'd be interested and pick these books up, they'd put them away because of the difficulty of the texts.

I think simpler versions would have made it easier for everyone to discover marxism, and it would have been wider spread.

What do you guys think?

In 1846 Weitling complained that the “intellectuals” Marx and Engels wrote only about obscure matters of no interest to the workers. Marx angrily responded with the following words, “Ignorance never yet helped anybody.” Marx’s response is as valid today as it was then.

http://www.marxist.com/defence-theory-ignorance-never-helped.htm

[Proukunin]

Shit! why couldn't Marx use LOL, WTF and other acronyms like these? He actually uses words! haha

[Kamos]

I'm with the OP on this one. I'm in the middle of Das Kapital right now and it (especially the beginning) is quite a complex read. (Though to his credit, I read the first 60 or so pages at around 23:00, so I wasn't completely concentrated...) And consider that most of us are quite educated today, whereas in the middle of the 19th century few countries had any compulsory education that was actually enforced. (Here in Hungary such a law was introduced in 1868, for example, and IIRC Austria-Hungary was pretty advanced in this regard.

[altnet]

Why did Karl Marx write so difficult?

I am studying and translating the Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital but it's going slow and difficult. His choice of words and explaining everything with a million examples and comparisons make it extremely difficult to read. Not to mention it's in a foreing language. And I usually don't read books. I am but a simple mind, not intelligentsia.

He was a smart man. But he missed his biggest audience: the proletariat. Because it's so difficult to read and most proletariats are ordinary men. Even if they'd be interested and pick these books up, they'd put them away because of the difficulty of the texts.

I think simpler versions would have made it easier for everyone to discover marxism, and it would have been wider spread.

What do you guys think?
It is typically difficult to read philosophical thought from around the Enlightenment as it is a drastically different style of writing and grammar usage. You could get summaries of the text which you are reading, although what purpose will that serve? If you continue reading you will form a greater understanding, and other works will become easier to read and comprehend. If you find the work too tedious, try reading a few pages at a time, outline basic ideas, write in margins etc. I'm sure you can find a strategy to make your reading more enjoyable.

I personally use my kindle as it has on the fly definitions (useful for antiquated words/phrases) and makes it very simple to highlight/make notes on the very page I am reading. Perhaps such a method could help you.

[VirgJans12]

It is typically difficult to read philosophical thought from around the Enlightenment as it is a drastically different style of writing and grammar usage. You could get summaries of the text which you are reading, although what purpose will that serve? If you continue reading you will form a greater understanding, and other works will become easier to read and comprehend. If you find the work too tedious, try reading a few pages at a time, outline basic ideas, write in margins etc. I'm sure you can find a strategy to make your reading more enjoyable.

I personally use my kindle as it has on the fly definitions (useful for antiquated words/phrases) and makes it very simple to highlight/make notes on the very page I am reading. Perhaps such a method could help you.

Yeah, I will definitely keep on reading and translating, and then make simpler Dutch texts out of it so I will train at reading these 19th century texts, and really learn Marxism. Reading a 10-page summary in modern English is like watching the trailer instead of the movie.

Most of the definitions are in the dictionary, that's not a problem. Though having to look up 2 words each sentence gets in the way of readability. I'll probably learn them soon enough and it'll be easier to read.

[Rooster]

Wait... you can't get a Dutch copy of Capital?

[VirgJans12]

Wait... you can't get a Dutch copy of Capital?

You can, but I didn't know how he wrote yet when I ordered it. I figured I could keep up with my English and learn at the same time. I ordered it together with the Communist Manifesto as my first two Marxist books. Now I'm getting more English training than I had hoped for :lol:.

[Arlekino]

I am agree with VirgJans12. Karl Marx writings are difficult in those times of course most of proletariats could not read and write. Even for us in Soviet schools when we have to study Karl Marx I found quite difficult to understand when I was teenager. Now when I am reading yes I still need dictionary but I am not ashamed because I am again learner.:)

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

I've always thought that a large part of the difficulty came from it being translated from German, given that Engels seemed to read much easier, even when saying something very complex - I guessed that was because Engels was able to write in English very well. I might be wrong though, I just figured complex theory + complex language + very old translation = hard reading.

Friends of mine have told me about translations that are much smoother than the usual ones, possibly because they have been translated more recently. There's also the fact that Marx's sentences can go on for almost a page at times which is a bastard to read, I've actually never read anything like it to be honest, apart from some logic stuff possibly.

I dunno, just thoughts from a tired brain. What I am sure of is that your average worker isn't gonna wanna read Capital on his lunch break. I don't even wanna read it and I'm a commie.

[-marx-]

I never read past a word I don't understand...which I used to be guilty of doing all the time. If I have to, I'll google the word for all definitions of it until I understand it fully. This makes reading Marx (in fact any book) easier as if you don't do it, by however far in you're gonna have a bunch of words you don't understand and then the whole thing isn't going to make much sense.
So what if it takes time, at least you're learning theory....the whole purpose of buying the books in the first place.
:)

[Tim Finnegan]

I'm told that part of the problem people run into when reading Capital is that they expect an economics textbook, and what they get is a towering work of literature, and an incomplete one at that, so they can sometimes get lost. Marx was never one to plod dryly through a topic, even in his relatively restrained journalistic work, making him sometimes harder to follow when dealing with denser material.
Now, I'll cheerfully admit, I can't say anything from personal experience, having never tackled Capital in anything more than extracts, but I really can't see him shedding the decades of rhetorical brilliance and literary expertise that he had accumulated over the years in favour, so its believable enough.

[Sun at Eight]

Uh, here's the Dutch translation of Capital: /nederlands/marx-engels/1867/kapitaal/index.htm

Just put the Marxists internet archive address before that since I can't link yet. The translation is from the 1960s. Of course, this only solves foreign language problems, since the first three chapters can be pretty slow reading in any language, including the original German.

[Rakhmetov]

The problem is that Marx used a lot of the language of German philosophers like Hegel, which is very dense and difficult.

http://kasamaproject.org/2010/02/01/howard-zinn-je-ne-suis-pas-marxiste/

[danyboy27]

Why did Karl Marx write so difficult?

I am studying and translating the Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital but it's going slow and difficult. His choice of words and explaining everything with a million examples and comparisons make it extremely difficult to read. Not to mention it's in a foreing language. And I usually don't read books. I am but a simple mind, not intelligentsia.

He was a smart man. But he missed his biggest audience: the proletariat. Because it's so difficult to read and most proletariats are ordinary men. Even if they'd be interested and pick these books up, they'd put them away because of the difficulty of the texts.

I think simpler versions would have made it easier for everyone to discover marxism, and it would have been wider spread.

What do you guys think?
Marx is not hard to understand if you dont try to understand it. Personally i love his exemples, especially when it come to explain how capital work.

try to read it like a real story book, dont try to analyse, just read the damn book.

[Rooster]

And by the way. You don't have to understand it right away as you read it. That's the thing with books. You can always come back to them and re-read them. I think if you or anyone else is having a hard time with it then I can only recommend that you just read through it, not worrying about having to get it, then go through the more difficult parts again.

[VirgJans12]

Marx is not hard to understand if you dont try to understand it. Personally i love his exemples, especially when it come to explain how capital work.

try to read it like a real story book, dont try to analyse, just read the damn book.


And by the way. You don't have to understand it right away as you read it. That's the thing with books. You can always come back to them and re-read them. I think if you or anyone else is having a hard time with it then I can only recommend that you just read through it, not worrying about having to get it, then go through the more difficult parts again.


Thanks. I'll do that.

[Kadir Ateş]

The problem I first encountered when I started to read Marx was his dialectical method. I wondered, "Why is this guy always contradicting himself?" and used to get so frustrated. Then I remembered one of my friends--my only leftist friend at the time--had recommended to me a book by this American political scientist by the name of Bertell Ollman called The Dance of The Dialectic. It was straight-forward and gave me the insight to look at how Marx developed his critique of bourgeois society through such dialectical categories as quantity/quality, identity/difference, interpenetrations of opposites, and contradiction. I highly recommend you get the book. Read it carefully, maybe a couple of times, then try reading Capital and you'll instantly begin to recognize what Marx is trying to do: unsettle what appears to be eternal and solid.

[La Comédie Noire]

Keep reading, it starts to make more and more sense with each additional read.

This is always fun. Read a bunch of 19th century political economy and then go back to something contemporary, you'd be surprised how fast you read it.

[VirgJans12]

The problem I first encountered when I started to read Marx was his dialectical method. I wondered, "Why is this guy always contradicting himself?" and used too get so frustrated. Then I remembered one of my friends--my only leftist friend at the time--had recommended to me a book by this American political scientist by the name of Bertell Ollman called The Dance of The Dialectic. It was straight-forward and gave me the insight to look at how Marx developed his critique of bourgeois society through such dialectical categories as quantity/quality, identity/difference, interpenetrations of opposites, and contradiction. I highly recommend you get the book. Read it carefully, maybe a couple of times, then try reading Capital and you'll instantly begin to recognize what Marx is trying to do: unsettle what appears to be eternal and solid.

Thanks!