The lowering of the flag

[The Man]

I watched this video, and I thought to myself that it was one of the sadest moments in the Twentieth Century.. Now I am not saying that I support what happened after Stalin died.

This is the lowering of flag, signifying the dissolution of the Soviet Union:

Qyz7poxAnGI


Opinions?

[jake williams]

I'm not a Soviet nationalist at all, but whatever the legitimacy of the grievances that contributed to the end of the Soviet Union, it's quite clear that it represented a major qualitative retreat for progressive and working class forces around the world.

[The Man]

I'm not a Soviet nationalist at all, but whatever the legitimacy of the grievances that contributed to the end of the Soviet Union, it's quite clear that it represented a major qualitative retreat for progressive and working class forces around the world.

Who's a Soviet Nationalist? :confused:

[thesadmafioso]

That was quite the depressing clip, more so than I thought it would be.

And as a side note, how does one think nationalistically of a republic built upon inherently internationalist ideology?

[jake williams]

That was quite the depressing clip, more so than I thought it would be.

And as a side note, how does one think nationalistically of a republic built upon inherently internationalist ideology?
I've seen it done. I think if you look at the right wing of the CPs in the former Soviet countries, including but not limited to Russia, much of the nostalgia for the Soviet Union has less to do with the real achievements of the working class than what is, effectively, a sort of nationalism, often a pretty religious one.

[thesadmafioso]

I've seen it done. I think if you look at the right wing of the CPs in the former Soviet countries, including but not limited to Russia, much of the nostalgia for the Soviet Union has less to do with the real achievements of the working class than what is, effectively, a sort of nationalism, often a pretty religious one.

I understand that it can be done in, my question was referring more to the actual logic behind it. I can't help but think that such thought would more rightfully be classified as Russian nationalism thinly covered in the aesthetics of the Soviet Union rather than 'Soviet Nationalism'.

[jake williams]

I understand that it can be done in, my question was referring more to the actual logic behind it. I can't help but think that such thought would more rightfully be classified as Russian nationalism thinly covered in the aesthetics of the Soviet Union rather than 'Soviet Nationalism'.
Perhaps, except I've seen it with non-Russian former Soviet citizens.

My point, anyway, was that we don't need nostalgic sentimentalism to see this particular historic moment as an important loss for the working class globally.

[thesadmafioso]

Perhaps, except I've seen it with non-Russian former Soviet citizens.

My point, anyway, was that we don't need nostalgic sentimentalism to see this particular historic moment as an important loss for the working class globally.

Hence the thin veneer of Soviet imagery and the like. They are still essentially backing a poorly repackaged variant of Russian nationalism if they hold the aforementioned motives for maintaining such loyalties.

[28350]

a republic built upon inherently internationalist ideology?

pretty sure that's not what stalin did

[Tommy4ever]

By this stage the USSR was merely a name without a body.

[redSHARP]

some people in the US get emotional when they read accounts about Lee surrendering the Confederate flag to Grant at Appomattox. (to be fair, read out of context of the civil war, some accounts can be a bit emotional. this reaction should be attributed to the author, not so much the event)

Its interesting to see how the lowering of a flag or other symbols affect someone. Just as we cheer when the footage of the 3rd Reich's shield on top of the Reichstag blowing up is played, some people would cheer the lowering of the soviet flag. perspectives on one event in time vary and it is interesting to read about those personnel accounts.

[Ismail]

After 1989 the USSR was barely even "socialist" in name. I recommend you glance at the July 1990 CPSU program statement: http://www.revleft.com/vb/cpsu-programme-statement-t142763/index.html?t=142763

When the post of President of the USSR was created in 1989 and the guiding role of the Party in all fields was ended, the USSR itself lost its actual (and, after the 1940's, largely theoretical) reason for existence. It became little more than a bourgeois federation of states, and most of the said states had little interest in reforming it as opposed to simply pulling out from what they viewed as Russian domination.

The USSR on its deathbed praised the reunification of Germany and refused to condemn the Gulf War, among other things. It pretty much abandoned even nominal Marxist-Leninist analysis in favor of advancing "world peace" and "socialist humanism."

So yeah, not much of value was lost by that point.

[jake williams]

After 1989 the USSR was barely even "socialist" in name. I recommend you glance at the July 1990 CPSU program statement: http://www.revleft.com/vb/cpsu-programme-statement-t142763/index.html?t=142763

When the post of President of the USSR was created in 1989 and the guiding role of the Party in all fields was ended, the USSR itself lost its actual (and, after the 1940's, largely theoretical) reason for existence. It became little more than a bourgeois federation of states, and most of the said states had little interest in reforming it as opposed to simply pulling out from what they viewed as Russian domination.

The USSR on its deathbed praised the reunification of Germany and refused to condemn the Gulf War, among other things. It pretty much abandoned even nominal Marxist-Leninist analysis in favor of advancing "world peace" and "socialist humanism."
All of which culminated in this event, the dissolution of the SU, which is why it's tragic.

[Comrade_Oscar]

The Soviet Union was far from perfect but it served as a "launching pad" if you will for worldwide worker's movements. The Soviet Union also took a very active role in combating American imperialism. The dissolution of the Soviet Union did not symbolize the fall of communism but the fall of a serious force to combat imperialism.

[Ismail]

The Soviet Union was far from perfect but it served as a "launching pad" if you will for worldwide worker's movements. The Soviet Union also took a very active role in combating American imperialism. The dissolution of the Soviet Union did not symbolize the fall of communism but the fall of a serious force to combat imperialism.After the 1960's the USSR engaged in "combating American imperialism" through its own social-imperialist policies.

[☭The Revolution☭]

Very soon, that flag will take its place over that pole once again.

[Ismail]

Very soon, that flag will take its place over that pole once again.Someone better tell the non-Russians.

[☭The Revolution☭]

The flag of the USSR was not only Russian. It was a symbol for all communists everywhere. A symbol of the power of the proletariat, to band together and overthrow an oppressive regime and establish a socialist union of such amazing strength. Seeing as we did that 94 years ago, think what we could do know.

[Tim Finnegan]

The flag of the USSR was not only Russian. It was a symbol for all communists everywhere. A symbol of the power of the proletariat, to band together and overthrow an oppressive regime and establish a socialist union of such amazing strength.
Do your history books all stop in the mid-20s or something? :confused:

[Ismail]

Or the mid-50's, for that matter.

[Arlekino]

I do remember when Lithuania started smashing communist symbols, how large society of Lithuania was so happy even in the streets people going on knees and pray openly thanking god for everything. Russia in that point on the news reported as Baltic States are too nationalistic.

[Ismail]

Most East Germans were similarly ecstatic (albeit with less appeals to God) when the Berlin Wall fell, as if now their lives would consist of awesome and abundance. It's a combination of atmosphere and a distorted sense of expectations.

The Baltic states, like in Albania, have strong anti-communist currents within their governments that basically recall the Lithuanian, Estonian and Latvian SSRs as being evil creations designed to destroy the immortal independence of all 3 cultures and as a diabolical Russian ploy to destroy all 3 nations, even though the Baltics generally got the most investment from the Union economy.

Speaking of the USSR and its SSRs, although everyone notes that the Soviet anthem kicks ass, it seems a lot of people forget that each Soviet Socialist Republic withing the USSR (sans the Russian SFSR) also had their own anthems, and they're pretty good, albeit lyrically repetitive. ("Yay our nation! Yay USSR! Yay Lenin! Yay Communism!")

Case in point, Georgian SSR: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TknJM2Hoc-c&feature=related

[Tim Finnegan]

The Baltic states, like in Albania, have strong anti-communist currents within their governments that basically recall the Lithuanian, Estonian and Latvian SSRs as being evil creations designed to destroy the immortal independence of all 3 cultures and as a diabolical Russian ploy to destroy all 3 nations, even though the Baltics generally got the most investment from the Union economy.
Not really understanding the implied contradictions, here. I agree that past a certain point, the Soviet occupation of a lot of regions tended not to be imperialistic in the proper sense, but that doesn't mean that there were not attempts on the part of the Soviet government to establish as Russian cultural hegemony. Even if Russification was wound back slightly after Stalin, they never quite reached the point where they returned to the old korenizatsiya program.

[Ismail]

Even if Russification was wound back slightly after Stalin, they never quite reached the point where they returned to the old korenizatsiya program.Actually if anything Russification was enhanced after Stalin. The Russian SFSR gradually gained more clout as time went on. This was most apparent in relation to the Central Asian SSRs, but yeah. The Brezhnevites simply replaced appeals to cultural autonomy with the practice of appointing ethnically diverse cronies to lead the SSRs.

Most of the Russification that occurred in the 1940's was basically an effort to "proletarianize" the three cultures, and obviously Russian influences came in, along with the process of integrating the three cultures in with the rest of the Soviet cultures.

Edit: I will agree though that korenzatsiia policies never returned after the 30's, although in many ways they were promoting nationalism.

[Dr Mindbender]

Have patience. The day that we see the lowering of the last stars and stripes is coming.

[Dr Mindbender]

Speaking of the USSR and its SSRs, although everyone notes that the Soviet anthem kicks ass, it seems a lot of people forget that each Soviet Socialist Republic withing the USSR (sans the Russian SFSR) also had their own anthems, and they're pretty good, albeit lyrically repetitive. ("Yay our nation! Yay USSR! Yay Lenin! Yay Communism!")

Case in point, Georgian SSR: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TknJM2Hoc-c&feature=related


For my money the East German anthem was (is) the best anthem EVER

Eam_XScivh8

Techno-ified!

dR0YHAEEg3I

[Tim Finnegan]

Have patience. The day that we see the lowering of the last stars and stripes is coming.
http://images.wikia.com/starshiptroopers/images/b/ba/FederationFlag.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship_Troopers_%28film%29)

S'what you mean, right? I mean, I'm assuming that you don't go in for all this "revolution a week on Tuesday" nonsense... http://forums.civfanatics.com/images/smilies/mischief.gif

[Arlekino]

Hello Comrades
I wish to post January of 13 events in Lithuania when was no more Soviet flag. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_Events_(Lithuania)

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mykolas_Burokevi%C4%8Dius"]

[pranabjyoti]

Do your history books all stop in the mid-20s or something? :confused:
I think those history books weren't written by imperialist agents.

[Tim Finnegan]

I think those history books weren't written by imperialist agents.
You people can't keep using that as your excuse for everything. It's getting pathetic.

[☭The Revolution☭]

Perhaps that because.... DUN DUN DUNNN.... It's TRUE! :O

:rolleyes:

[Ocean Seal]

For my money the East German anthem was (is) the best anthem EVER

Eam_XScivh8

Techno-ified!

dR0YHAEEg3I
Everything is better with Techno :thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1:

[thesadmafioso]

I think that this video is being taken a bit beyond its original intent. It is a flag of a hammer and a sickle, symbols of the proletariat, being lowered indefinitely. That is still quite powerful symbolism, regardless of the revisionist tendencies of the later decades of the Soviet Union.

[Susurrus]

What on earth must it have felt like for the guy up there lowering the flag? I wonder what it was like to lower the flag of a superpower, particularly the USSR...

Though I love how the video ends with him reaching out and touching it.

[Tifosi]

What on earth must it have felt like for the guy up there lowering the flag? I wonder what it was like to lower the flag of a superpower, particularly the USSR...

Though I love how the video ends with him reaching out and touching it.

Dude, it's glorified bunting, get a grip. "He touched the flag! Aaaaaaaahhh":lol:

[Impulse97]

Dude, it's glorified bunting, get a grip. "He touched the flag! Aaaaaaaahhh":lol:


Yea, but its the meaning and hope behind it that matters. It's what it represented. The first successful major socialist revolution, even if it didn't last long.

[Tim Finnegan]

Yea, but its the meaning and hope behind it that matters. It's what it represented. The first successful major socialist revolution, even if it didn't last long.
Some would suggest that it was over before that particular flag was even introduced...

[Susurrus]

Dude, it's glorified bunting, get a grip. "He touched the flag! Aaaaaaaahhh":lol:

Lol, I didn't exactly mean it like that, I meant it more like reaching up to it in hopes of salvation sort of thing, though I definitely could've worded it better.


It really was sad to see go though, even if it's original meaning and significance had been twisted long before then, since it symbolized for so many the struggle to rid the world of inequality and exploitation. A long forgotten dream for the Soviet Union and its leaders, but one carried on by the oppressed.

Let's just hope the red flag rises again, this time not only in Russia. Can't wait for the flag currently flying over congress to come down too.

[Susurrus]

Some would suggest that it was over before that particular flag was even introduced...

True, but still...

[Impulse97]

Some would suggest that it was over before that particular flag was even introduced...


True, but I like to think it was at least a start. A foot in the door. An example to learn from and improve upon if nothing else.

[Martin Blank]

I watched that happen in the Detroit offices of the Communist Party. There wasn't a dry eye there. Everyone was weeping openly, as if a close friend had died. Even those of us who were highly critical of the USSR at the time felt the loss and were moved to tears.

I had been in New York only four months before for a YCL National Council meeting, when the GChKP staged their coup against Gorbachev and Yeltsin. We were all sitting around in the Party's National Office, reading the TASS statements as they came off the teletype and were brought from the newsroom up to the NO by a sprinting YCL courier, and passing them back-and-forth among the roughly 50 of us on that floor. The folks who were to become the Committees of Correspondence people were arguing with the other Party leaders about what position to take. (At the time, I was supporting the "hardliners".) I watched the opening salvos of that split take place.

[Ismail]

Yeah, to see a country one upheld as the hope for humanity fold like a cheap chair must have sucked pretty bad. Some CPs apparently even went bankrupt, like the Communist Party of Canada. The pro-Albanian groups experienced a similar situation as the pro-Soviet groups did.

I think only characteristic of communists back then, and perhaps it isn't entirely gone today, is that in the 1980's everyone was predicting the collapse of capitalism or, if that failed, nuclear war. James P. Cannon a month (July 1974) before he died had the following exchange with an interviewer:

Lens: Do you anticipate a revolution in America in the near future?

Cannon: It depends on what you mean by near.

Lens: Next 10 or 15 years.

Cannon: I say anything is possible in this century in the years that are left of it. That's 26 years.

Lens: But you don't sound very optimistic.

Cannon: I don't want to make any categorical statements, but I say we're living in a time when capitalism is plunging toward its climactic end.

Lens: Didn't you say that in the thirties?

Cannon: I did, yes.

Lens: And in the forties?

Cannon: And in the forties.

Lens: I mean, that must sound like something peculiar when you say it every decade.

Cannon: But when you stop to think, the history of humanity is a very long one, isn't it? And a quarter of a century is only an instant in the history of the human race.Evidently decades and yet more decades of saying that capitalism was doomed, this time coupled with the collapse of the USSR, must have hit most people hard.

In December 1984, Hoxha basically stated in his diary that most of the Eastern European countries wanted economies of the "Titoite type" and greater trade relations with the West, and that the Soviet Union was preventing them from doing so for its own geopolitical reasons. He noted that China now had capitalism "in all fields" and was enjoying ever greater ties with the West. He noted that reactionary and "fascist" forces were on the upsurge, and basically predicted that the year 1985 was going to be one of greater geopolitical confrontations between the USA and the USSR as liberation movements across the world were being sabotaged. Virtually no one expected the USSR to fall within 6 years.

[Susurrus]

http://cdn.pimpmyspace.org/media/pms/c/nu/zg/ib/-poznan026.jpg

Looks like it ended up in Berlin somehow...

[A.R.Amistad]

http://cdn.pimpmyspace.org/media/pms/c/nu/zg/ib/-poznan026.jpg

Looks like it ended up in Berlin somehow...
...is it just me or did someone make a mistake sewing the hammer and sickle on that flag?

[W1N5T0N]

I would have cared had they lowered a red-n-black flag...but i believe that the USSR caused it's own downfall by essentially betraying it's own ideals. No offense to any hardcore leninists/stalinists here, but yep, instead of going from socialism (state capitalism) to communism, the bolshevik party led everyone back to capitalism...and i still dont get why! Add to that the purges, the cheka, KGB, killing of anarchists and even fellow communists, building a totalitarian state, centralizing all power (no more "all power to the soviets")....It makes me sad that this had to happen, but on the other hand, they USSR has a lot to owe to itself. I know that also many good things happened, but on the balance of things, I cant imagine living in the USSR. Yes, the imperialists threatened them all the time, and yes, i hate them for that, but the USSR sure wasn't anywhere near socialist or communist state.

[Impulse97]

I would have cared had they lowered a red-n-black flag...but i believe that the USSR caused it's own downfall by essentially betraying it's own ideals. No offense to any hardcore leninists/stalinists here, but yep, instead of going from socialism (state capitalism) to communism, the bolshevik party led everyone back to capitalism...and i still dont get why! Add to that the purges, the cheka, KGB, killing of anarchists and even fellow communists, building a totalitarian state, centralizing all power (no more "all power to the soviets")....It makes me sad that this had to happen, but on the other hand, they USSR has a lot to owe to itself. I know that also many good things happened, but on the balance of things, I cant imagine living in the USSR. Yes, the imperialists threatened them all the time, and yes, i hate them for that, but the USSR sure wasn't anywhere near socialist or communist state.

For awhile it was. 1930 Seems like a good cutoff. Each year after that it went downhill. From Stalin to Khrushchev and Brezhnev to Gorbachev it got a little worse each year.

But, that's the importance of history, to learn from it. We should see what mistakes where made and why then avoid them to ensure a true ML revolution.

[Susurrus]

From Stalin to Khrushchev and Brezhnev to Gorbachev it got a little worse each year.

I would say the worst power change was year one, from the people to the Bolsheviks.

[Impulse97]

I would say the worst power change was year one, from the people to the Bolsheviks.


That was a key factor, but I don't think it completely killed it. It didn't die out till a few years later. Up until Lenin's death it was still salvageable, except ole stalin didn't salvage it, he thrashed it.

[W1N5T0N]

The revolution died with the Kronstadt sailors. As simple as that.

[Ismail]

The revolution died with the Kronstadt sailors. As simple as that.No it isn't, that's not a materialist analysis. The idea that a naval base signaled the "life" of the Russian Revolution is absurd.

There's various reasons why the revolution's gains began to corrode in the 1920's and dismantle in the 1950's and onwards, such as the isolation of the USSR and the backwardness of the population, but Kronstadt isn't one of them.

[Tim Finnegan]

No it isn't, that's not a materialist analysis. The idea that a naval base signaled the "life" of the Russian Revolution is absurd.
And you don't think that maybe W1N5T0N is well aware of this, and is just being poetic?

[Susurrus]

No it isn't, that's not a materialist analysis. The idea that a naval base signaled the "life" of the Russian Revolution is absurd.

There's various reasons why the revolution's gains began to corrode in the 1920's and dismantle in the 1950's and onwards, such as the isolation of the USSR and the backwardness of the population, but Kronstadt isn't one of them.

Well, one could argue that the Kronstadt rebellion showed that the Bolsheviks had become completely divorced from their original goals and principles, since the Kronstadt sailors were merely taking the slogan "all power to the soviets" seriously and attempting to escape the domination of the party.

And I think there were a few more reasons(Cheka, NKVD, purges, red terror, holodomor, so-called dekulakization) that the revolution was corrupted.

[W1N5T0N]

Thats exactly what im arguing, thankyou for explaining my point Susurrus.

[Ismail]

And I think there were a few more reasons(Cheka, NKVD, purges, red terror, holodomor, so-called dekulakization) that the revolution was corrupted.A famine (the "Holodomor") and dekulakization (which, even if you think there were no kulaks, still saw collectivization) helped end the revolution?

I guess Lenin screwed up really bad, considering that you forgot to include the 1921 famine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1921).

At least the Cheka/NKVD and Red Terror are understandable concerns.


Well, one could argue that the Kronstadt rebellion showed that the Bolsheviks had become completely divorced from their original goals and principles, since the Kronstadt sailors were merely taking the slogan "all power to the soviets" seriously and attempting to escape the domination of the party.
What do you make of this Trotsky quote? "The Soviets are the only organised form of the tie between the vanguard and the class. A revolutionary content can be given this form only by the party... No one has either shown in practice or tried to explain articulately on paper how the proletariat can seize power without the political leadership of a party that knows what it wants. The fact that this party subordinates the Soviets politically to its leaders has, in itself, abolished the Soviet system no more than the domination of the conservative majority has abolished the British parliamentary system." (Stalinism and Bolshevism, p. 22.)

[Impulse97]

A famine (the "Holodomor") and dekulakization (which, even if you think there were no kulaks, still saw collectivization) helped end the revolution?

I guess Lenin screwed up really bad, considering that you forgot to include the 1921 famine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1921).

At least the Cheka/NKVD and Red Terror are understandable concerns.


What do you make of this Trotsky quote? "The Soviets are the only organised form of the tie between the vanguard and the class. A revolutionary content can be given this form only by the party... No one has either shown in practice or tried to explain articulately on paper how the proletariat can seize power without the political leadership of a party that knows what it wants. The fact that this party subordinates the Soviets politically to its leaders has, in itself, abolished the Soviet system no more than the domination of the conservative majority has abolished the British parliamentary system." (Stalinism and Bolshevism, p. 22.)


I think your Trotsky quote highlights the issue here. The party/vanguard, while important, should not exercise total control over the councils. The councils as a voice for the people of that region, need to be able to counter the party with the people's demands. It should be up to the councils with cooperation from the party that roots out reactionary elements from the government.

Neither side should be allowed the lions share of the power, because as we see with the SU, China and DPRK as soon as a small oligarchy gets into power, socialism starts to be eroded.

[Rafiq]

Lol, I didn't exactly mean it like that, I meant it more like reaching up to it in hopes of salvation sort of thing, though I definitely could've worded it better.


It really was sad to see go though, even if it's original meaning and significance had been twisted long before then, since it symbolized for so many the struggle to rid the world of inequality and exploitation. A long forgotten dream for the Soviet Union and its leaders, but one carried on by the oppressed.

Let's just hope the red flag rises again, this time not only in Russia. Can't wait for the flag currently flying over congress to come down too.


You are all wrong.

Not only will the flag over congress fall and burn, as will the congress building fall with it!

[Rafiq]

Enough Idealist bullshit.

The death of the revolution was solely a result of the failure of it to spread to the industrialized nations, specifically germany.

There you go.

[Ismail]

Enough Idealist bullshit.

The death of the revolution was solely a result of the failure of it to spread to the industrialized nations, specifically germany.

There you go.This is more or less accurate.

[Susurrus]

[QUOTE=Rafiq;2157804]Enough Idealist bullshit.

The death of the revolution was solely a result of the failure of it to spread to the industrialized nations, specifically germany.
QUOTE]

No...even if this had happened, it would be most likely bolshevik dominated, and followed the same policies. If they managed to avoid that pitfall, then perhaps they could have created a successful revolution.

[Rafiq]

No...even if this had happened, it would be most likely bolshevik dominated, and followed the same policies. If they managed to avoid that pitfall, then perhaps they could have created a successful revolution.

/Facepalm.

Listen, comrade, the Bolsheviks didn't act authoritarian for no reason! They literally had to because they were being invaded by over twelve countries!

I don't want to sound like a Marxist Leninist, I know the Bolsheviks fucked up (krodstat) and the likes, yes, they could have done much better, but some things they couldn't control. I'm not apoligizing for them, no, but their degeneration back to Capitalism via the NEP, Krodstat suppression, and later Stalinism was a direct result of the revolution to spread, NOT some kind of bullshit moral decay that the bolshevisk were facing.

Do you, or anyone else for that matter, actually fucking believe the bolsheviks under Lenin behaved that way, just because they were big fucking douches? No! They had no choice... Just like with the NEP.

had the revolution had spread, there would be no threat, and the bolsheviks would either 1. Be overthrown by a workers movement (Assuming they were just douches) or 2. Give all power to the Soviets, workers, ect.

See, this is my problem with some strands of Anarchism. It is too Moralistic, and yes, saying that authority ought to not exist is a moral. You base your judgement on history, not from a materialist point of view, but a moralist one.

[Susurrus]

/Facepalm.

Listen, comrade, the Bolsheviks didn't act authoritarian for no reason! They literally had to because they were being invaded by over twelve countries!

Do you, or anyone else for that matter, actually fucking believe the bolsheviks under Lenin behaved that way, just because they were big fucking douches? No! They had no choice... Just like with the NEP.

See, this is my problem with some strands of Anarchism. It is too Moralistic, and yes, saying that authority ought to not exist is a moral. You base your judgement on history, not from a materialist point of view, but a moralist one.

This all sounds well and good, and was the same reasons the Bolsheviks gave, but they fall apart when compared to history. If a centralized government is necessary to fight a war, then explain the success of the Black Army in the Ukraine against the Whites. Only when the Bolsheviks held back ammunition and supplies were they defeated. Also explain the successes of the militias in the Spanish Civil War. The war was lost when the Stalinists wiped them out in favor of a centralized, authoritarian army. Certainly organization and order is needed to fight a war, but there is no need for political repression. War communism served the purpose of consolidating the Bolshevik regime. What defeated the Whites was the revolutionary spirit of the Russian people, and their willingness to fight despite repression and red terror.

Even if we admit that it was necessary to win the war, then why wasn't the power given back to the soviets after the war? The failiure of the Bolsheviks to return power to the people after the war was one of the reasons the Kronstadt sailors protested against the regime.

It's not a matter of moral decay, it's a matter of practicality.

[Dr Mindbender]

What on earth must it have felt like for the guy up there lowering the flag? I wonder what it was like to lower the flag of a superpower, particularly the USSR...

Though I love how the video ends with him reaching out and touching it.

Gorbachev most likely already cleared out his desk well before hand. It was probably lowered by one of Yeltsin's goons in which case I doubt there was any sentimentality involved.