Is wearing a poppy in November considered to be reactionary by many revleftists?

[magicme]

Hello, I've been reading some of the threads, as I do, and something came up that I wondered about in a discussion people were having.

In Britain in November we have this memorial day thing to remember all the soldiers who died in wars. As part of this there are fake poppies for sale by old men, they're some kind of ex-soldier's support charity i think, and many people wear them as a sign of remembrance. I join in with this because it's always seemed like the right thing to do, remembering how much wars suck and also for the sake of family members who died. I never met any of them, as they died a long time ago, but I do feel connected to them especially Great Uncle George as apparently I'm the spitting image of him and when I met some of my old relatives sometimes they got confused and thought I was him. So when we have the silence thing that's associated with the memory day I usually have a good think about him and war in general.

So in this other thread I was reading someone referred to the 'poppy cult' in Britain which made me wonder if it's like bigging up war or whatever to wear a poppy.

[The Idler]

The short answer is yes.
Alternative poppies exist, and the first was created by the pro-appeasement Peace Pledge Union.
There has also been a black poppy created by the People Against Global Imperialism to show you are not just against war but generally anti-imperialist.

http://thesoulofmanundercapitalism.blogs... (http://thesoulofmanundercapitalism.blogspot.com/2008/11/of-remembrance-and-forgetfulness.html)
http://harpymarx.wordpress.com/2008/11/0... (http://harpymarx.wordpress.com/2008/11/09/the-old-lie-dulce-et-decorum-est-pro-patria-mori/)
http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=3054
http://socialismoryourmoneyback.blogspot... (http://socialismoryourmoneyback.blogspot.com/2006/11/great-poppy-debate.html)
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/jul200... (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/jul2003/xmas-j17.shtml)
http://pagi.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk (http://pagi.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/)

[bailey_187]

From what i remember someone else saying i think is that the messege of the whole thing has changed from originaly "never forgetting" the young men slaughtered in first world war for no good reason, to becoming a glorification of miliatarism and the British Army in general

dno how accurate that is tho

[PhoenixAsh]

I think there is nothing wrong with remembering the people who have died being exploited and goated (sp?) into wars by the burgeoisie imperialists elite in useless stuggles which pitted proletariat against proletariat.

However; you do not need a poppy for that....especially since it is being viewed as support for the very military institutions that had these people butchered and is seen not only as sign of rememberance but also as a sign of endorsement.

The same mourning can be expressed by wearing symbolism which is uniquely pitted against the institution of war, imperialism and capitalism...or by attending alternative rallies or platforms. If you want to express it through symbolism at all. Because its imo really not necessary.

[RedSunRising]

How many people consider it reactionary here to put the boot into the people selling poppies? Thats what I wanna know! :D

[caramelpence]

how many people consider it reactionary here to put the boot into the people selling poppies? Thats what i wanna know! :d

yEAH START THE PEOPLE'S WAR IN THE CHECKOUT LINE IN TESCOS! LONG LIVE MARXISM-LENINISM-MAOISM!

[VirgJans12]

yEAH START THE PEOPLE'S WAR IN THE CHECKOUT LINE IN TESCOS! LONG LIVE MARXISM-LENINISM-MAOISM!

We could start it at Starbucks. Free coffee is what the proletariat needs!

[Luc]

It is important to remember the proletarians killed in the imperialist and capitalist wars but I would say Yes, it is reactionary.

Why?

I guess because instead of Rememberance Day being a day of remembering people who died in wars it seems to be more about duty to the nation, respect for the military, sacrafice for the kingdom, and all that garbage. If this is true, the red poppy (symbolising the previously mentioned) is itself opposed to proletarian internationalism (by promoting patriotism and nationalism). Since it opposes a key point in anarchism, communism, and socialism it could be considered reactionary.

The black poppy idea sounds interesting because it would symbolize rememberance for sacraficed proletarians by the Bourgeoisie on the alter of imperialism that they call glory (namely the first world war). I think I will paint my poppy black.

Just my opinion, hope it helps.

P.S. thanks The Idler for the pagi link.

[Aeval]

The Poppy Appeal was originally a way of giving work to disabled soldiers who would otherwise have been on the street, even today the people who work to make them are almost entirely ex-soldiers who have been injured. It's kinda a shame it's been turned into this glorification of the military because it could have quite easily been a symbol for peace. I wouldn't say it's reactionary though, it depends why you are wearing one - if you're wearing one because you want to support "our boys" then yea, it is pretty reactionary, but if you're wearing one because you want to remember the people whose lives were wasted in the war then it's not (though a lot of people will presume you're wearing it for the first one).

The thing with the White Poppies is that the money just gets pumped back into their organisation. Fair enough, I doubt they make that much, but if the money isn't going to a good cause why not just not wear one (or make something yourself)?

[Bronco]

I think it encourages a dangerous patriotism and nationalism where people tried and make anyone who doesnt wear one feel ostracised. I dont wear one anymore but I used to just wear one on the day itself and even then I was frequently criticised and considered some kind of disrespectful, moral leper.

It's a growing problem in this country, this mindset that you should always praise anyone in the forces as a "hero" and it's fuelled by the red tops like the Sun with their constant "our Boys" rhetoric. Soldiers, and war, are effectively being glorified. A lot of people I talk to dont support the war in Afghanistan yet they consider soldiers "heroes". Why? They can never give a good answer.

Nowadays Poppies are even being worn in October, it's become a PR thing for most celebrities to be seen wearing one. Dare voice any objection to it though, and you're immediately shunned

[dwyck]

I wear a poppy and aren't bothered if people on here think of me as some kind of reactionary because I know I'm not.

I think it is often used as a political tool by a lot of reactionaries to get people to support war, but the poppy in itself is only there as a way to remember people who have died in war and to remember the tragedies of war. Certain groups of people have attached a meaning on to the poppy that was never supposed to be there imo.

Yes there are these alternatives around but to most people they mean nothing and probably never will mean anything to the majority of working class people. Therefore they are pretty pointless as they don't really achieve anything.

I'd agree with a lot of the statements said previously if they were aimed at something like Help For Heroes.

[Rainsborough]

Yeah, go up to some old chap in his sixties who lost friends fighting the nazis during WWII, or surivived a spell in a Japanese P.O.W. camp selling 'poppies' and tell him he's a 'reactionary'. Then be glad he's in his sixties and can't give you the hiding some might say you deserve.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

As for the OP-it's not reactionary any more than any other group of people remembering loved ones lost in pointless, stupid conflicts. That said, often any attempt to support "our boys" becomes jingoistic over time, and this jingoism is reactionary. Take the US as an example; on one hand, some idiotic or foolish Leftists in the 60s and 70s showed great disrespect soldiers returning from Vietnam, as if some prole kid who got drafted and sent to the jungles of South Asia was a "class enemy" and personally at fault for the crimes organized by the bourgeois government. As such, more effort was put by people into respecting the soldiers who were risking their lives because others told them they had to. But the American right uses this tiresome reactionary "support the troops" crap where anyone who questions the human rights record of our army or doesn't support a war effort 110% is necessarily disrespecting the soldiers who are dying or getting injured, and the center-left lets them because they are too afraid of not appearing patriotic enough.

So basically, it depends on if you can respect the dead soldiers without absorbing reactionary jingoistic bullshit along the way.


Yeah, go up to some old chap in his sixties who lost friends fighting the nazis during WWII, or surivived a spell in a Japanese P.O.W. camp selling 'poppies' and tell him he's a 'reactionary'. Then be glad he's in his sixties and can't give you the hiding some might say you deserve.

While I agree with you, the soldiers in question would probably be in their 80s, not their 60s (dunno how many 5 year old doughboys there were rotting in Japanese POW camps). Not to nitpick or anything ...

[Rainsborough]

Originally Posted by Shiva Trishula Dialecticshttp://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2134842#post2134842)
While I agree with you, the soldiers in question would probably be in their 80s, not their 60s (dunno how many 5 year old doughboys there were rotting in Japanese POW camps). Not to nitpick or anything ...

Whoops!:crying:

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Yeah memorial days are always reactionary, especially if you live in imperialist countries like Britain or the United States. It's always the same thing, "buy X to remember the soldiers that died fighting for our freedom" bullshit. What did the 6,000 soldiers killed in the Middle East die for again? Imperialism. Support the troops. The same ones occupying countries? Hell no, don't fall for that stuff.

[tbasherizer]

I'm in the UK right now, and I saw a war monument to the soldiers who fought in the Boer War. It was there to commemorate the 'defence of the Empire's honour'. I let out a stifled laugh, to catch dirty looks from those around. I personally dislike the cult of the soldier, as it makes the difference between support for soldiers as human beings and support for soldiers as the business end of a global biggest dick contest (too profane?) quite ambiguous.

I personally wear a white poppy on rememberance day, much to he bewilderment of my more politically mainstream friends. If asked, I just say I wear it to commemorate all those who die in war state my opposition to it in general. I'll consider the black one next time though.

[ZrianKobani]

Yeah memorial days are always reactionary, especially if you live in imperialist countries like Britain or the United States. It's always the same thing, "buy X to remember the soldiers that died fighting for our freedom" bullshit. What did the 6,000 soldiers killed in the Middle East die for again? Imperialism. Support the troops. The same ones occupying countries? Hell no, don't fall for that stuff.
The best reason to be anti-war IS the troops; these kids get sent off to be trained as killers and when they get back there's no work for them, nobody to relate to their trauma, and nobody who cares. As neglected as veterans are in the United States and I can imagine in the United Kingdom also, I think we owe it to them to set aside a day saying, "we will never know what you experienced but we will never forget that you experienced it".

[tbasherizer]

I wouldn't say that the welfare of western troops is necessarily the BEST reason to be anti-war. It must have been pretty hard for the million or so Vietnamese to relate to their families when they were dead. I know what you mean though; everyone loses in a battle- only the ruling class wins the war.