James Connolly Irish Socialist

[Cork Socialist]

I was just wondering the other day what does everyone think of James Connolly( if they think anything at all :D ). Obviously all of the Irish left wing will know about James Connolly. But I wonder do comrades not from Ireland know about or have read anything from James Connolly. If you do, I would be interested to hear what you think about him.

[Tommy4ever]

Scottish Socialist thank you very much. ;)

[Zanthorus]

One thing I know about James Conolly is that he was a Catholic moralist which played into his strained relationship with Daniel De Leon. De Leon was the English translator of August Bebel's 'Women and Socialism' and Conolly rejected the apparently (And actually) blasphemous declarations of the book on the transformation of the family under socialism. This led to Conolly's pegging De Leon with the iron law of wages and various other slanders to mask the fact that he couldn't take anything that hit against his own puritanical religious values.

On the other hand he was involved in founding the Socialist Labour Party (UK), an organisation which is particularly interesting since they opposed all sides in the First World War and the Russian revolution, but rejected the CPGB's strategy of entering the Parliamentary Labour Party. In this they were joined by Sylvia Pankhurst and the British Communist Left, however unlike the BCL they supported running candidates in elections to advance the workers' movement.

[Battlecat]

One thing I know about James Conolly is that he was a Catholic moralist.

"though I have usually posed as a Catholic, I have not done my duty for 15 years, and have not the slightest tincture of faith left… – (Letter from James Connolly to John Carstairs Matheson, 30 January 1908"


If you remove the English army tomorrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle, unless you set about the organization of the Socialist Republic your efforts would be in vain. England would still rule you. She would rule you through her capitalists, through her landlords, through her financiers, through the whole array of commercial and individualist institutions she has planted in this country and watered with the tears of our mothers and the blood of our martyrs

'nuff said

[LewisQ]

Connolly was a very confused man who did some good work but ultimately sacrificed himself on the altar of ethnic nationalism, forever subordinating Irish labour to the bourgeois state in the process. His prominence in the iconography of the Irish left is related to two things; the persistent infestation of nationalism in these parts, and the dearth of historical socialist idols.

Unhappy the land that needs heroes.

[Madvillainy]

well he was on the left of the second international, but i think the lack of socialist opposition to the war and the defeat of the 1913 lockout definitely messed up his faith in a socialist revolution. i think if u read his stuff just prior to the easter rising you can see he had clearly slipped into some sort of left nationalism with talk of blood sacrifices and shit like that.

[Cork Socialist]

Scottish Socialist thank you very much. ;)

Yes Born in scotland i know ;) but you get what I mean :D

[Marxach-Léinínach]

He was a cool guy alright. He was just like me as well - born in Edinburgh with Irish family :D

[RedSunRising]

well he was on the left of the second international, but i think the lack of socialist opposition to the war and the defeat of the 1913 lockout definitely messed up his faith in a socialist revolution. i think if u read his stuff just prior to the easter rising you can see he had clearly slipped into some sort of left nationalism with talk of blood sacrifices and shit like that.

Through his study of Irish history he clearly understood unlike most of the second international though like Lenin and Marx themselves how the struggle against Imperialism and colonialism intersects with the class struggle. Also does the struggle for communism not involve blood sacrifice? Why is our flag the red flag, red being the colour of blood, if it does not symbolize our martyred dead?

[LewisQ]

Through his study of Irish history he clearly understood unlike most of the second international though like Lenin and Marx themselves how the struggle against Imperialism and colonialism intersects with the class struggle. Also does the struggle for communism not involve blood sacrifice? Why is our flag the red flag, red being the colour of blood, if it does not symbolize our martyred dead?

In all fairness, comrade, that's a bit of a stretch. The term "blood sacrifice" in Irish historico-political discourse refers to the bourgeois nationalist Patrick Pearse's concept of that name, which stated that it was necessary for revolutionaries to spill their own blood in doomed actions simply to manifest visible resistance. This is ultra-nationalist idealist bullshit. Pearse and Connolly went to their graves for this principle, but so did a lot of impressionable kids who'd signed up to defend socialism.

Connolly's analysis of imperialism and labour was profoundly flawed. As a result of his hiding the banner of Irish socialism behind the green flag, nationalim became the hegemonic revolutionary force in the years that followed, and actively crushed militant labour after independence.

[Marxach-Léinínach]

In all fairness, comrade, that's a bit of a stretch. The term "blood sacrifice" in Irish historico-political discourse refers to the bourgeois nationalist Patrick Pearse's concept of that name, which stated that it was necessary for revolutionaries to spill their own blood in doomed actions simply to manifest visible resistance. This is ultra-nationalist idealist bullshit. Pearse and Connolly went to their graves for this principle, but so did a lot of impressionable kids who'd signed up to defend socialism.

Connolly's analysis of imperialism and labour was profoundly flawed. As a result of his hiding the banner of Irish socialism behind the green flag, nationalim became the hegemonic revolutionary force in the years that followed, and actively crushed militant labour after independence.

You'd be surprised how left-wing he was actually

[RedSunRising]

Connolly's analysis of imperialism and labour was profoundly flawed. As a result of his hiding the banner of Irish socialism behind the green flag, nationalim became the hegemonic revolutionary force in the years that followed, and actively crushed militant labour after independence.

In all fairness you are not distinguishing between Republicanism as represented by Pearse and RC nationalism as represented by the Redmond, the uneasiness of the alliance between them during the war of independence which in turn led to the civil war and the defeat of the Republican side in it by RC nationalists with the help of British guns which in turn lead to most active Republicans and Socialists being forced into exile (if they werent hanged)...What you have been told is idiotic to any one who has actually studied Irish history, of course you are not to blame for just repeating what you have been told...But it would be a very good idea to examine the motives behind them telling you this, which are understandable from a human persecptive given internment in the south and increasing repression in the north, but I wish they would just stop playing being revolutionaires, when you think about it seriously its quite disgusting. Pearse's talk of blood sacrifice which seem to create almost vomiting attacks in the sensitive souls of liberal degenerates have been echoed in similar appeals by Communists in India, Peru and Africa.

[LewisQ]

I have studied Irish history extensively, but thanks for the suggestion. The distinction between "RC nationalism" and revolutionary nationalism is a novel one, so congrats on that. My grandfather was a left Republican imprisoned by the state in the 1930s; by no means whatsoever were the majority of his IRA comrades left-wing in any respect. Many were religious fanatics, many were proto-Fascists who fully realized those tendencies in the 1940s, most were nationalist extremists and outright reactionaries. Although heroic in many ways, the pitiful size and influence of the Republican Congress demonstrates just how little traction socialist ideas had within the broader movement.

I think The Wind That Shakes The Barley has a lot to answer for in encouraging this completely bogus perception of the civil war as a left-right conflict. As for the blood sacrifices of Peruvian, Indian and African left nationalists; how did they work out? About as well as they did in Ireland.

[RedSunRising]

I have studied Irish history extensively, but thanks for the suggestion. The distinction between "RC nationalism" and revolutionary nationalism is a novel one, so congrats on that

To your second...Its not at all. So your first point seems bit off.

[human strike]

Yeah study history cuz like there's only one way of interpreting history, it's all just facts and dates init. Shut up, RedSunRising. Oh, but for your sake I better point this out before expressing an opinion: I HAVE STUDIED IRISH HISTORY!!!!! BLAH!BLAH!BLAH!APPEALTOAUTHORITY!!!!!

Anyway, I agree with Lewis 100%.

[RedSunRising]

Yeah study history cuz like there's only one way of interpreting history, it's all just facts and dates init. Shut up, RedSunRising. Oh, but for your sake I better point this out before expressing an opinion: I HAVE STUDIED IRISH HISTORY!!!!! BLAH!BLAH!BLAH!APPEALTOAUTHORITY!!!!!

Anyway, I agree with Lewis 100%.

Lewis obviously hasnt read the Comintern reports. And has admitted in another thread that he plans to join the ULA, a utterly reformist party that no where mentions socialism in its program and contains an organization that the Communist Party of India (Maoist) has labeled social-fascist and is on friendly terms with fascists in Ireland. Yet now he is being the big tough ultra-leftist? LOL!

[CommieTroll]

He was born in Scotland to Irish parents and was very interested the Irish language and culture when he was growing up then lived in Ireland for the rest of his life after being made redundant in Scotland

[RedSunRising]

He was born in Scotland to Irish parents and was very interested the Irish language and culture when he was growing up then lived in Ireland for the rest of his life after being made redundant in Scotland

Actually I believe he spent more time in the USA as an IWW organizer than he did in Ireland.

[RedSunRising]

My grandfather was a left Republican imprisoned by the state in the 1930s; [/B]by no means whatsoever were the majority of his IRA comrades left-wing in any respect. Many were religious fanatics, many were proto-Fascists who fully realized those tendencies in the 1940s, most were nationalist extremists and outright reactionaries. Although heroic in many ways, the pitiful size and influence of the Republican Congress demonstrates just how little traction socialist ideas had within the broader movement.


If you are going to waffle stop boasting....Internment wasnt brought in until the very end of the 1930s and DeValera was happy enough to have the IRA around for a large part of the 30s to deal with the blue shirts and put off the danger of coup d'etat by CnG forces (which was a genuine danger all through the 30s). Given the amount of Irish Republicans who gave their lives in sacrifice in Spain fighting clerical fascism aswell as those Irish Republicans who beat clerical fascists off the streets of Ireland in the 30s your statement there is crazy.

[Marxach-Léinínach]

As for the blood sacrifices of Peruvian, Indian and African left nationalists; how did they work out? About as well as they did in Ireland.

Yeah, just cause they're in the third world, actually fighting the class war and don't just sit at computers talking shit all day they must be "left nationalists". Even after RedSun specifically mentions "Communists in India, Peru and Africa" :rolleyes: Oh god, what's the fucking point...

[Rowan Duffy]

For those who would like to see in detail the argument between Connolly and DeLeon

http://www.marxists.org/archive/connolly/1904/condel/index.htm

[LewisQ]

Lewis obviously hasnt read the Comintern reports. And has admitted in another thread that he plans to join the ULA, a utterly reformist party that no where mentions socialism in its program and contains an organization that the Communist Party of India (Maoist) has labeled social-fascist and is on friendly terms with fascists in Ireland. Yet now he is being the big tough ultra-leftist? LOL!
I've honestly no idea what you're on about here, so I think I'll just let it be. You're right about one thing; the ULA's current programme is reformist, and worse, incoherently reformist. However, it contains and is primarily composed of the two largest revolutionary socialist groups in Ireland, and is the only viable vehicle for defending the interests of the working class and moving towards the development of a new mass party to represent their interests.

No wait, I'm going to ask because I've got to hear this; which element of the ULA is on friendly terms with fascists? It's news to me that there are organised fascists in Ireland for anyone to be on friendly terms with.

Oh, and as for my grandfather. He wasn't interned, he was given a four-year sentence on a trumped-up charge to stop him agitating within the IRA for participation in the Spanish Civil War, or going himself. This was relatively common at the time. Anyway, his politics aren't my politics (he was later prominent in the ideologically confused Workers' Party), I mentioned it in passing. Some of his IRA comrades were so anti-fascist they ended up collaborating with the Abweher during the war!

In my experience, the people who act big and tough on this issue are generally those with a passing acquaintance with Irish affairs who row in behind armed republicanism because, hey, they have guns and bombs, they must be like, totally badass.

[RedSunRising]

No wait, I'm going to ask because I've got to hear this; which element of the ULA is on friendly terms with fascists? It's news to me that there are organised fascists in Ireland for anyone to be on friendly terms with.


The CWI has been labeled correctly as a social fascist force by the Communist Party of India (Maoist). The time is fast approaching when they will be paid in full for their services to Imperialism in that country. The CWI/Socialist Party in Ireland is on friendly terms with both the UDA and UVF. Neither the SWP or SP are in any way revolutionary if that terms means anything. The Republican working class of the occupied north are the only mass group open to actual Communism, to cast of their struggle against Imperialism out of fear and than invent reasons for doing so is typical of the middle class left.

[Tomhet]

I reckon he's pretty neat..

[Madvillainy]

The CWI/Socialist Party in Ireland is on friendly terms with both the UDA and UVF.

i doubt either of those groups even know of the CWI's existence. this is something ive never heard before though. a bunch of trots mixing it with armed paramilitary gangs? ridiculous lol.


Neither the SWP or SP are in any way revolutionary if that terms means anything.

well we agree with something at least.


The Republican working class of the occupied north are the only mass group open to actual Communism, to cast of their struggle against Imperialism out of fear and than invent reasons for doing so is typical of the middle class left.

have you ever been to northern ireland? i think theres a tendency for people outside of ireland to paint republican/nationalist workers here to be really militant n shit but its pretty much the opposite, the only way they will ever be open to our ideas is if they unite as workers and shed themselves of all that republicanism and unionism crap.

[RedSunRising]

have you ever been to northern ireland? i think theres a tendency for people outside of ireland to paint republican/nationalist workers here to be really militant n shit but its pretty much the opposite, the only way they will ever be open to our ideas is if they unite as workers and shed themselves of all that republicanism and unionism crap.

The CWI brought over UVF/PUP operatives to do a speaking of the UK. Why would they do that if they werent pals?

Yes I have. There is a lot of sympathy and support in various for the IRSP who until recently were a revolutionary Marxist organization and for Eirigi who despite their problems do contain a good few proper Communists, same with the RNU, though I think both of those organizations really need to stop being as reactive and superficial in their thought. No where else in Ireland can you find as many Communists or Communist fellow travellers.

There were even murals painted in parts of the north of Ireland for the red martyrs of the Turkish death fasts. Cant see that happening in Cork or Galway.

[LewisQ]

The CWI has been labeled correctly as a social fascist force by the Communist Party of India (Maoist). The time is fast approaching when they will be paid in full for their services to Imperialism in that country. The CWI/Socialist Party in Ireland is on friendly terms with both the UDA and UVF. Neither the SWP or SP are in any way revolutionary if that terms means anything. The Republican working class of the occupied north are the only mass group open to actual Communism, to cast of their struggle against Imperialism out of fear and than invent reasons for doing so is typical of the middle class left.
Well, comrade, I like to be civil so we'll have to go our separate ways on this one, especially if you really think the SP in Ireland (for all its faults) is on "friendly terms" with the UDA and UVF (violent ethno-nationalist scum, yes, but not fascist if that term means anything.) But as an exercise, I'd invite you to stroll into a UVF social club in Belfast, clap the patrons on the back and introduce yourself as a fraternal comrade from the CWI. See how many teeth you leave with.

[RedSunRising]

Well, comrade, I like to be civil so we'll have to go our separate ways on this one, especially if you really think the SP in Ireland (for all its faults) is on "friendly terms" with the UDA and UVF (violent ethno-nationalist scum, yes, but not fascist if that term means anything.) But as an exercise, I'd invite you to stroll into a UVF social club in Belfast, clap the patrons on the back and introduce yourself as a fraternal comrade from the CWI. See how many teeth you leave with.

A former key member of the Socialist Party who has since left (for personal reasons) used to drink regularly in one of them, but carry on. The stickies also grew quite close to them in the 80s so maybe your relation did as well?

[RedSunRising]

the UDA and UVF (violent ethno-nationalist scum, yes, but not fascist if that term means anything.)

Do you think you are at Zimmerwald in 1915? Ulster Loyalism is NOT ethnic nationalism. As Mao said "No study, no right to speak".

[human strike]

As Mao said "Quoting me is a good way to get yourself ignored as being irrelevant."

[Aurora]

The CWI brought over UVF/PUP operatives to do a speaking of the UK. Why would they do that if they werent pals?

Yes I have. There is a lot of sympathy and support in various for the IRSP who until recently were a revolutionary Marxist organization and for Eirigi who despite their problems do contain a good few proper Communists, same with the RNU, though I think both of those organizations really need to stop being as reactive and superficial in their thought. No where else in Ireland can you find as many Communists or Communist fellow travellers.

There were even murals painted in parts of the north of Ireland for the red martyrs of the Turkish death fasts. Cant see that happening in Cork or Galway.
Your such a moron it's unbelievable, practically everything you say is wrong in some respect.

UVF operatives? :laugh:
A CWI member once took to a platform at an SSP event where a PUP member was also speaking. Also the CWI also had a notion that the PUP might have been developing a left-wing which was investigated and quickly dismissed. That's all that there is to say on that, wipe the foam from your mouth and run along home.

The IRSP even by the standards of left-wing groups is small. The IRSP still considers itself a marxist organisation so perhaps the only reason you don't think it is anymore is because they decided to decommission their arms? and as we all know anyone without guns cant be communist :rolleyes:

As to the OP ive read very little Connolly although what i have read his writing style is quite engaging and humorous. It's interesting to think the way things could have gone if the Easter Rising hadn't happened and Connolly saw the October Revolution.

[RedSunRising]

The IRSP even by the standards of left-wing groups is small. The IRSP still considers itself a marxist organisation so perhaps the only reason you don't think it is anymore is because they decided to decommission their arms? and as we all know anyone without guns cant be communist :rolleyes:


They are tiny in the Free State due to the severe repression that greeted their foundation in the 70s where the entire membership was rounded up and tortured. Remember that their leader was murdered with Free State co-operation. The fact that the Socialist Party has suffered no significant repression in a semi-fascist country reveals their class nature. In the north however they were able to build a decent enough base of support.

And they were heading down hill before their final capitulation. Handing over arms paid for by working class support or the heroism of volunteers to Imperialists to be destroyed, denying the necesscity of the violent overthrow of the Imperialism and capitalism...Im not surprised you dont find that a big deal.

[S.Artesian]

I was just wondering the other day what does everyone think of James Connolly( if they think anything at all :D ). Obviously all of the Irish left wing will know about James Connolly. But I wonder do comrades not from Ireland know about or have read anything from James Connolly. If you do, I would be interested to hear what you think about him.


I think his Labour in Irish History is great; his writings on socialism and the Irish revolution are the best articulation of proletarian internationalism in a colonized country.

And I love this particular line:

"All hail, then, to the mob, the incarnation of progress!"

I strongly recommend comrades read as much of his work as they can.

[Cork Socialist]

As to the OP ive read very little Connolly although what i have read his writing style is quite engaging and humorous. It's interesting to think the way things could have gone if the Easter Rising hadn't happened and Connolly saw the October Revolution.
Actually thats one thing I have always wondered, what would have happened if the rising had not happened until after the October revolution. Plus I could be wrong here but from memory was the conscription crisis not happening around this time in Ireland, So i would have guessed support would have been very large for a movement in ireland on top of the Nationalist elements in Ireland.

It would have been very interesting to hear Connollys reaction to the October Revolution.

[Rowan Duffy]

I'm not too keen on his views on nationalism, and indeed I think he was proved wrong (that the burgeoning national movement would improve the lot of the working classes) by the course of events.

However, he has other very interesting contributions. The following is a very insightful piece on nationalisation vs. socialisation:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/connolly/1901/evangel/stmonsoc.htm

[The Idler]

The Irish Question (1976) Socialist Party pamphlet remarks;

Connolly is an Irish National Hero for having been executed after the Easter Rising in 1916. The fact that he took part in an insurrection, and an earlier period of militant syndicalism, has obscured the fact that at the time of his death Connolly was a reformist Labourite and Social Democrat. The Social Democrats of the Second International, insofar as they had some idea of Socialism, saw it not as a frontierless world community but rather as a federation of “independent socialist republics” which could be established independently at different times in the various different countries of the world. In other words, they did not reject the concept of “socialism-in-one-country”. On the contrary, they embraced and propagated it. Connolly agreed with this error wholeheartedly. Ireland, he always argued, being a separate “nation” was entitled to its own separate "socialist republic" independent of Britain's.

Born in Edinburgh in 1868, he joined a local Social Democrat group and soon became an active speaker and writer. Moving to Ireland in 1896 he helped found the Irish Socialist Republican Party. Back in Britain again he was involved in the anti-reformist "impossibilist" revolt in the Social Democratic Federation which led to the founding of the Socialist Labour Party (whose founding congress he chaired in 1903) and the Socialist Party of Great Britain in 1904. His writings from this period, though still confused on nationalism, come nearest to the socialist position, but moving to America he was soon swept away by the mistaken industrial unionist and syndicalist ideas of Daniel De Leon, the SLP and the IWW. In fact these ideas to call for One Big Union, composed of workers of all political persuasions united only to further their economic interests -- paved the way for Connolly to return to his earlier Social Democratic reformism. For, he must have reasoned, if non-socialist workers should join in One Big Union to further their interests on the economic field, why should they not also join in one big "Labour Party" to defend their interests on the political field? Connolly supported Debs, the candidate of the reformist Socialist Party of America in the 1908 Presidential election, and later became a paid organiser for this party. He returned to Ireland in 1910 determined to get the trade unions to form an Irish Labour Party along the lines of the original.

Established by the British unions in 1900. Success came at the 1912 Congress of the Irish TUC. An Irish Labour Party, committed on paper to nationalisation and gradually improving the workers' standard of living, was set up. Connolly had become a Labourite. Anyone who doubts Connolly's reformism and gradualism should read his Reconquest of Ireland written in 1914. This outlines a programme for the gradual take-over of Ireland's resources, natural and man-made, in the name of the people (the "reconquest of Ireland" of the title) and for the gradual improvement of working class living standards, through Labour Party control of local councils, through industrial unionism, co-operative societies and social reforms.

But Connolly was not simply a Labourite reformist; he was also a Republican and a Catholic Nationalist. When he moved to Belfast as organiser for the Irish Transport and General Workers Union in 1911 he identified himself with the Catholic section of the working class there, not only by supporting Home Rule and Independence but also by sending his children to a Catholic school (since he was married to a Protestant he would have been under no pressure to do this). As we have already noted, the 1916 Easter Rising in which he played a leading role was aimed at establishing, with help from Imperial Germany, an independent capitalist Republic. It had nothing whatsoever, not even in words, to do with Socialism or even, for that matter, with trade unionism or Labourism.

[Rowan Duffy]

It's true that he had a naive view of federated nationalism, one that was also shared by a number of misguided social democrats of the time. It was an error, but one reasonably made in the context of his time - and only clear with the benefit of 20/20 hind-sight. Other than that, the article is complete rubbish.

Firstly nobody could have been a reformist "labourite", a "social democrat" and an "impossibalist" all at the same time; the notion is entirely absurd. Social Democracy was synonymous with revolutionary Marxism at the time, and Lenin, of all people that the SP raise up as a near-Jesus like figure, was an avowed Social Democrat during the same period.

It takes an act of pure mentalism to conflate reformism with "impossibalism". However, neither charge is true as can be clearly seen by anything that he actually wrote or was actively involved in. How can someone be an insurrectionist and a reformist, and also believe in the impossibility of reform? It's nonsense!

The fact that Connolly was drawn to revolutionary syndicalism as a tactic is completely natural. Anyone existing at the time would have seen syndicalism as the core of the expression of working class power. What alternatives were there? The other alternatives were agitation and education without the industrial muscle present in the capacity to withdraw labour. Anyone who took a purist rejection of syndicalism would have been an idiot. The radicals in the SPD embraced the strike waves which occured in 1905. The Bolsheviks had the slogan: "All power to the soviets". The syndicalists were rising in power throughout the world because of the objective economic conditions. Denouncing him as a syndicalist for his recognition of the importance of syndicalism in the period is both pathetic and dangerously ignorant.

All told, that article is a confused and worthless polemic against Connolly. I'm perfectly willing to hear criticism, but there should be at least some point to it.

[Tim Finnegan]

Also, that stuff about him being a "Catholic Nationalist" is pretty absurd- I mean, what, he was supposed to support an imperialist occupation? :confused:- especially the point about sending his kids to a Catholic school is pretty questionable. Any Protestant school in Dublin would've been a sure-fire way to have your kids planted eyeball-deep in imperialist and Unionist ideology, which I'm not sure is exactly what Connolly would've been after. Catholics schools were bad enough, frankly, with the Church's traditional cooperation with the British state, but at least they weren't actually the training grounds of the Protestant Ascendency. Certainly, going from "was a consistent anti-imperialist" to "wanted to snog the Archbishop" is a bit of mental leap. Why, you'd almost forget that the first state to recognise the Irish Republic, bourgeois as it certainly may have been, was none other than Russian SFSR... :rolleyes:


They are tiny in the Free State due to the severe repression that greeted their foundation in the 70s where the entire membership was rounded up and tortured. Remember that their leader was murdered with Free State co-operation. The fact that the Socialist Party has suffered no significant repression in a semi-fascist country reveals their class nature. In the north however they were able to build a decent enough base of support.
I would say it has more to do with the fact that one group were running around the place with guns and bombs, while the other really never did anything more threatening that issue a strongly-worded pamphlet, but, sure, let's go with your theory. :rolleyes:

[RedSunRising]

Also, the point about sending his kids to a Catholic school is pretty questionable. Any Protestant school in Dublin would've been a sure-fire way to have your kids planted eyeball-deep in imperialist and Unionist ideology, which I'm not sure is exactly what Connolly would've been after. Catholics schools were bad enough, frankly, with the Church's traditional cooperation with the British state, but at least they weren't actually the training grounds of the Protestant Ascendency.


I would say it has more to do with the fact that one group were running around the place with guns and bombs, while the other really never did anything more threatening that issue a strongly-worded pamphlet, but, sure, let's go with your theory. :rolleyes:

On my dad's side I come from a long line of Dublin Prods so I have to intervene here. If you look at the Irish Citizen's Army the amount of Prods in it was far out of their propotion per capita in the city. You only have to think of Sean O'Casey and Jack White. The Prod working class of Dublin was more radical than their RC neighbours in general. However after the victory of the Treatyites they were decimated. A huge amount who survived were forced to emigrate through black lists. Those who remained had huge social pressure to become Roman Catholics. The idea of all Irish Prods in the south being middle class and Unionist is wrong.

But before loyal4life or a Unionist lover thanks this post there is also the question of why so many Protestant leftists in the six counties left in 69 and 70.

I was raised Protestant but without any Unionist sympathies at all.

[Tim Finnegan]

On my dad's side I come from a long line of Dublin Prods so I have to intervene here. If you look at the Irish Citizen's Army the amount of Prods in it was far out of their propotion per capita in the city. You only have to think of Sean O'Casey and Jack White. The Prod working class of Dublin was more radical than their RC neighbours in general. However after the victory of the Treatyites they were decimated. A huge amount who survived were forced to emigrate through black lists. Those who remained had huge social pressure to become Roman Catholics. The idea of all Irish Prods in the south being middle class and Unionist is wrong.

But before loyal4life or a Unionist lover thanks this post there is also the question of why so many Protestant leftists in the six counties left in 69 and 70.

I was raised Protestant but without any Unionist sympathies at all.
I'm not saying that their weren't radical Protestants, RedSun, I'm saying that the Protestant education system was far more under-the-thumb than the Catholic one was, especially given that overwhelming majority of Protestant schools in the South have always been Church of Ireland, rather than Presbyterian or Independent. As I said, the Catholic education system was still ultimately conservative, in Scotland and in Ireland, and yet it produced Connolly, so there's nothing to say that the education fully defines the adult individual, just that Connolly would understandably want to minimise its effects.

[RedSunRising]

I'm not saying that their weren't radical Protestants, RedSun, I'm saying that the Protestant education system was far more under-the-thumb than the Catholic one was, especially given that overwhelming majority of Protestant schools in the South have always been Church of Ireland, rather than Presbyterian or Independent. As I said, the Catholic education system was still ultimately conservative, in Scotland and in Ireland, and yet it produced Connolly, so there's nothing to say that the education fully defines the adult individual, just that Connolly would understandably want to minimise its effects.

Look Im not sectarian, infact Ive been called anti-Protestant sectarian by idiot trots, but Im not sure thats true at all, the Roman Catholic hierachy in Ireland was always militantly anti-Communist and anti-Republican while the Church of Ireland for various has let people get on with their political business as long as they go along with the 39 articles. Some elements in Fianna Fail in the 30s wanted to nationalize the RCC like they did in China. Its sad that didnt happen.

But the fact is that Connolly while being far from an Ultra-Montane psycho or sectarian bigot had a sentimental attachment to Roman Catholicism. That should be admitted.

[CommieTroll]

Actually I believe he spent more time in the USA as an IWW organizer than he did in Ireland.

I think that was Larkin but you could be right, I think he did spend some time in America but from what I have studied he spent a lot of his political career in Ireland

[RedSunRising]

I think that was Larkin but you could be right, I think he did spend some time in America but from what I have studied he spent a lot of his political career in Ireland

No Im sure.

Larkin spent some time in the USA but not nearly as much as Connolly.

Larkin is interesting because his Revolutionary Communist League was probably despite its small size the most correct Communist group there has been in Ireland. Also interesting is that he was close friends with the Left Communist Herman Gorter.

[Tim Finnegan]

Look Im not sectarian, infact Ive been called anti-Protestant sectarian by idiot trots, but Im not sure thats true at all, the Roman Catholic hierachy in Ireland was always militantly anti-Communist and anti-Republican while the Church of Ireland for various has let people get on with their political business as long as they go along with the 39 articles. Some elements in Fianna Fail in the 30s wanted to nationalize the RCC like they did in China. Its sad that didnt happen.

But the fact is that Connolly while being far from an Ultra-Montane psycho or sectarian bigot had a sentimental attachment to Roman Catholicism. That should be admitted.
Well, fair points, and I wouldn't go down fighting in defence of my earlier comments. It's quite possible that I'm projecting too much of my own experience of Scottish sectarianism onto the Irish situation.

Either way, as I said, the points made don't really demonstrate much more than, as RedSun says, a sentimental attachment to Roman Catholicism- quite probably influenced by the far starker status of Catholicism in Scotland, Connolly's place of upbringing, as the religion of the underdog- rather than the Catholic Nationalism that the SP seem keen on laying upon his shoulders.

[LewisQ]

The Irish Question (1976) Socialist Party pamphlet remarks;

It's worth pointing out that this article would presumably have been authored by the Socialist Party of Ireland, a defunct quasi-Eurocommunist group which was briefly prominent in the 70s. No relation to the present SP (CWI), which has something of a hard-on for Connolly.

[RedSunRising]

It's worth pointing out that this article would presumably have been authored by the Socialist Party of Ireland, a defunct quasi-Eurocommunist group which was briefly prominent in the 70s. No relation to the present SP (CWI), which has something of a hard-on for Connolly.

They have also had public meetings about Che Guevara who knew how to deal with Trotskyites...They know he is a popular left wing symbol. Thats all. The crisis of leadership and the transitional program in action.

[LewisQ]

I don't think the exterminationist rhetoric is necessary or helpful, RSR, but whatever works for you. By the way, did you ever see Joe Higgins's TG4 series on Che? I think you would have liked it, and by "liked it" I mean "punched a hole in the screen".

[Kamil]

stated:

though I have usually posed as a Catholic, I have not done my duty for 15 years, and have not the slightest tincture of faith left… Letter from James Connolly to John Carstairs Matheson, 30 January 1908