Nazis Get Beat Out Of Worcester, MA

[Stand Your Ground]

WORCESTER, MA--On May 21st at 4pm local Antifascists clashed with racists from the group North East White Pride(NEWP). We learned NEWP would once again attempt to hold a public meeting in the Worcester Library only 24 hours in advance, in that time about 10 to 20 antifa were mobilized and prepared to kick the bastards out of our city.
NEWP managed to bring about 5 supporters to their meeting who were clearly no match for us, so with bandannas over our faces we made our way into the meeting room, and immediately came into conflict with them. It began with shoves and a few kicks, then blunt weapons and chairs we're used. One bonehead got a u-lock taken to his face and arm, while others had chairs brought down on their skulls. The only exit was covered so they had no where to go, and could only stand there and attempt to cover themselves as chairs rained down on them. There were no injuries or arrests of the antifa.

This is a warning to NEWP, this will not stop, you are not from here, and Worcester will never be a safe place for you. Solidarity to those fighting the bastards everywhere.


http://www.onepeoplesproject.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=741:north-east-white-pride-meets-in-worcester-ma-librarywith-antifa&catid=29:antifa-news&Itemid=14
(http://www.onepeoplesproject.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=741:north-east-white-pride-meets-in-worcester-ma-librarywith-antifa&catid=29:antifa-news&Itemid=14)

[Olentzero]

I am sure the Worcester Library and its patrons appreciate you using library property in your confrontation. No doubt you'll win plenty of good Worcester folk to your organization now.

[Ravachol]

I am sure the Worcester Library and its patrons appreciate you using library property in your confrontation. No doubt you'll win plenty of good Worcester folk to your organization now.

Good job defending property! I also love how the latter seems to be the primary issue here :rolleyes:



Commercial logic also enters into "theoretical" formation. With a growing mass of ideological commodity-capital to realize, it becomes necessary to create a deep motivation so people will buy commodities. For this the best motivation is: learn more, read more, in order to be above, in order to be different from the mass. Prestige and exclusion are the signs of competition in all its forms; and so also among these gangs, which must vaunt their originality, their prestige, in order to attract notice. This is why the cult of the organization and the glorification of the peculiarities of the gang develop. From that point on, it's no longer a question of defending a "theory," but of preserving an organizational tradition.


But then again, what do 'squadists' know about anything ey? :D

[Proukunin]

Good job.

[Sasha]

Yup, because contrary to their library being used as an propaganda and recruiting tool by fascists one should worry about some furniture..

[Smyg]

:thumbup1: Thumbs up for these guys.

[bezdomni]

I remember the KKK wanted to have a "white history exhibition" or some shit at the Town Hall building in Tomball, Texas (near Houston). This took place in 2005.

Anyway, the local government was put under pressure to not allow the exhibition to take place on the grounds that KKK obviously discriminates against who can enter the room (e.g., black people were physically prevented from entering the room).

Since the event was took place on public property, it was then illegal for them to hold such an event there and now they have been banned from ever coming back.

The mayor said this: "The new policy will require that [a]ny person or group renting or using a building or location owned or controlled by the City of Tomball for a public function shall not prohibit, dissuade, prevent, or exclude any member of the public based upon or regarding an individual’s race, color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, age, national origin, or disability; The policy will require all parties renting city facilities for public events to sign a contract of nondiscrimination."

I imagine the same logic should apply to this group and a public library in Worster, MA.

[Bronco]

It's quite hard to determine what was actually taking place or what is really meant by them holding a "public meeting" but the fact that there were only 5 of them tells me that this was hardly some great breeding ground of Fascism.

It's mindless shit like this that gives anti-Fascists a bad name.

[Stand Your Ground]

It's quite hard to determine what was actually taking place or what is really meant by them holding a "public meeting" but the fact that there were only 5 of them tells me that this was hardly some great breeding ground of Fascism.

It's mindless shit like this that gives anti-Fascists a bad name.
Small organizing is still organizing. Who knows what the fuck they were gonna talk about in there: bombs? killing sprees? We cannot let them organize under any circumstances. Even one Nazi alone has the potential to do harm to innocent people.

[Bronco]

Small organizing is still organizing. Who knows what the fuck they were gonna talk about in there: bombs? killing sprees? We cannot let them organize under any circumstances. Even one Nazi alone has the potential to do harm to innocent people.

So they'd go to a public library to discuss how best to make bombs or kill blacks?

By public meeting I guess the 5 of them sat round and had a little group wank over David Irving, most of the people in the library probably didnt know or didnt give a shit until 20 idiots came in and smashed stuff up. After which, the NEWP probably strolled off to have their meeting elsewhere.

Forgive me for expressing doubts over the merits of such an action.

[Olentzero]

Yup, because contrary to their library being used as an propaganda and recruiting tool by fascists one should worry about some furniture..Ain't so much the furniture I'm concerned about as who uses it and why. And the ability of the library to replace them - or even to repair any damage to the walls and doors from that knucklehead swinging a U-lock around, seeing as how Worcester isn't exactly the richest city in Massachusetts, and God knows how long the city government's been slashing public funding for places like libraries.

So they chased off a couple Nazis. Bravo. They've also put a dent in the library's budget, possibly got barred from entering again, and in all probability driven off patrons who have now been convinced that not even the library is a safe place to hang out because a bunch of thugs got into a fight there.

Here's a counterexample from right here in lovely Stockholm. A meeting of ours was pre-empted by a handful of neighborhood fascists who occupied the room we were supposed to meet in for a public discussion of Che, Malcolm X, and Angela Davis. Must have been about 5 of them and 20 of us. We got in there, faced them down and without lifting a finger convinced them quite thoroughly they weren't wanted there. Result? They fucked off, no furniture was broken, the non-members who came to be part of the discussion stayed, and the people who run the place (a public meeting hall with a cafe and some places for young folks to hang out) are more than happy to see us back - to the point they asked us to help organize a neighborhood anti-racist festival in September because they realized they don't want the fascists around either, and they know we're not a bunch of thuggish idiots who'll start swinging hardware at the drop of a hat.

Which results will be more productive in the long run, do you think?

[Anarchist Skinhead]

well done to whoever did it! and ignore the idiots moaning how ineffective the action was.
Militant activity is not always pretty thing, but it has to be done. You cannot always explain things to everybody and not everybody wants to listen anyway. While you talk shit, some people prefer to act.

[bezdomni]

While you talk shit, some people prefer to act.

The vast majority, however, probably like quiet in the library.

BTW. I think we can safely say that they were not having a public meeting to discuss bombs/killings (what is this I don't even...), they were most definitely having a white-nationalist bore fest. These people are not poised to seize political power or build a movement.

Compare even the situation with skinheads/neo-nazis in Russia to anywhere in the US.

I've never seen a neonazi in Worster, but then again I'm not around there very often. Are there many of them out there? Are they very active?

[Sasha]

the only issue one should have with this action is the detailed boasting about illegal acts in an "pressrelease", its stupid as it leaves people very vulnerable for prosecution and its unnecessary as these kind of story's spread among the fash anyway and are way more effective as rumors.
"we stopped some nazi's from meeting" would have been more than enough.

[Ravachol]

Here's a counterexample from right here in lovely Stockholm. A meeting of ours was pre-empted by a handful of neighborhood fascists who occupied the room we were supposed to meet in for a public discussion of Che, Malcolm X, and Angela Davis. Must have been about 5 of them and 20 of us. We got in there, faced them down and without lifting a finger convinced them quite thoroughly they weren't wanted there. Result? They fucked off, no furniture was broken, the non-members who came to be part of the discussion stayed, and the people who run the place (a public meeting hall with a cafe and some places for young folks to hang out) are more than happy to see us back - to the point they asked us to help organize a neighborhood anti-racist festival in September because they realized they don't want the fascists around either, and they know we're not a bunch of thuggish idiots who'll start swinging hardware at the drop of a hat.


Except that most of the time they'll just have a laugh at your polite liberal 'request for them to leave', break up your meeting and smack you in the face. This happened to multiple UAF meetings broken up by the EDL, for example. Obviously the preferable solution (if there is a choice) is for everybody to leave without any form of 'physical' intervention but this simply isn't an option most of the time.

[PhoenixAsh]

Yup, because contrary to their library being used as an propaganda and recruiting tool by fascists one should worry about some furniture..

what do you get when you put fascists and libraries together?

http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/photo/wlc/image/alpha/bb160.jpg

I think a little bit of furniture is a fair price for the library...considering the alternative

[Le Socialiste]

Fascism, the word/term, cannot successfully take root in its historical sense; the problem lies in how other groups integrate fascistic ideas and theories into their broader sociopolitical platforms. One cannot say that the Tea Party organizations don’t contain certain currents of thought that could be identified as fascist, or that the policies of mainstream governments are immune to fascist tendencies. Nationalism/patriotism, militarism, economic corporatism, class suppression, the belief in one’s racial/social/cultural “supremacy”, and various other qualities can—in many situations—be considered fascistic. But the most likely case is they won’t ever be identified as such unless they are coupled with images of swastikas and “heil Hitler” salutes. This is the problem; fascism is but a term used to describe a certain tendency of sociopolitical (and, to a necessary degree, economic) thought. It doesn’t matter whether the individual or group considers their actions or ideologies to be in line with fascism, the reality is much more difficult to identify. Therefore, American fascism isn’t so much seen in the likes of Stormfront, NEWP, or the National Socialist Party (though, quite frankly/obviously, they are fascist), as it is in the structures, systems, and cultural/social/political staples of American government, in the parties of Democrats and Republicans, in the field of law enforcement, and the natural coercive force of an increasingly heavy-handed capitalistic class. None of these would ever consider themselves as containing a drop of fascism, yet it resides in varying degrees within the very arteries of their governance. Certainly, I support the actions of the Antifascists who came in and forcibly disrupted the meeting of a few self-identified fascists. I believe those who consider themselves adherents of fascism should be dealt with accordingly. But to say that fascism can never take hold of American political and social life is naïve. In various ways it already has, and the need for struggle is all the greater for it. Liberal-style pacifism won’t make for meaningful progress. It only allows for the continuance of the existing structures that permit such attitudes and tendencies to flourish and prosper.

[black magick hustla]

so five methheads were beaten up by some black clad anarcho clowns. it could hardly get more subcultural and irrelevant

[nuisance]

so five methheads were beaten up by some black clad anarcho clowns. it could hardly get more subcultural and irrelevant
well the aim is to keep fascism irrelevant,...so good?

[Renno]

Here's a counterexample from right here in lovely Stockholm. A meeting ... ...
Which results will be more productive in the long run, do you think?


Well, if the purpose is to hold your own meeting and get rid of the fascists, then yours will be more productive, but I doubt that they stopped being fascists.

Then the above method is more effective,what certain ex-moderators of the dutch part of stormfront can confirm......

And who gives a shit how it looks like to the bourgeois-media or happy festivals where everybody unites, goes home and feels good. And do not forget to donate to greenpeace and save the world.

They never have and will stop fascism, it has to be fought by all means necessary. And I think it is about time, that the non-violence part of the movement acknowledges, that we have to fight it by all means necessary.

If you do not agree with certain methods, does not mean that yours are the best. It means also that you create an atmosphere were people, do not have to distrust their fellow activists. It means also that if we stand together, and don't let us be split in good or bad activist,we can fight them everywhere, every-time, physically and mentally.

And yes, we should discuss the chosen methods, without judging them. We have to reflect on our actions, and we need to adjust if needed.

Only then we will have a united front

[Tim Finnegan]

Good job defending property!
But libraries are public property, typically managed by a local, i.e. municipal or county government, and operated on a non-profit basis for the public good. Isn't that at least very broadly what we're actually arguing for? :confused:


While you talk shit, some people prefer to act.
You really need to get over this action-fetish, because "acts" are not intrinsically positive. If you're "acts" are not productive, and in fact actively counter-productive- as damaging the publicly owned property of an underfunded service undoubtedly is- then you'll be doing more good by staying at home until you can think of something useful to do.

[Anarchist Skinhead]

I am not condoning destruction of library, but sometimes things like that happen and there is no better choice. We haven't been there and its not up to us to judge it. I don't have an "action fetish", but I can't stand people talking shit about fellow anti-fascists stopping nazis in their track with great risk to their liberty. Thats all.

[Tim Finnegan]

I am not condoning destruction of library, but sometimes things like that happen and there is no better choice. We haven't been there and its not up to us to judge it. I don't have an "action fetish", but I can't stand people talking shit about fellow anti-fascists stopping nazis in their track with great risk to their liberty. Thats all.
Stopping what, thought? Some poxy little circle jerk? Is that really worth the downright awful impression that this will give the wider community of anti-fascist activism? Because, frankly, it doesn't seem even to me that those involved were in any real or substantial sense combating fascism or protecting the working class, but sacrificing the material interests of the working class, i.e. risking damage to public services, in pursuit of the fulfilment of some self-appointed crusader mission. And that's speaking as somebody who is actually sympathetic to militant anti-fascism- I can't imagine that the centrists who comprise the population at large are somehow likely to see it in any better light.

[Sasha]

hey, lets see what onkel adolf himself, an undisputed expert on the subject on hand i presume, had to say on the subject:


“Only one thing could have broken our movement – if our enemies had understood its principle and from the first day had smashed the nucleus of our movement with extreme brutality.”
(Adolf Hitler, 1933)

[A Revolutionary Tool]

20 against 5? You could have simply mean-mugged them and they would have been thoroughly intimidated and scared; they would have run off with their tails in between their legs! But if they stood their ground then yeah, they wanted a beat down. Next time your library has a event you should help though, or maybe just do some community service there.

[Tim Finnegan]

hey, lets see what onkel adolf himself, an undisputed expert on the subject on hand i presume, had to say on the subject:
I'm pretty sure that, even at it's most feeble, germinal stages, the NSDAP had more clout than the, err, what was it? "North East White Pride"?, and that, equally, that the militant antifascists of the day had more public support in opposing them. What you're looking at here isn't the RFB fighting the SA, or even the much reduced example of, say, Red Action scrapping with Combat 18, it's just two random assortments of nobodies having a barmy in a conference room.

[Sasha]

so why are you getting worked up over it :rolleyes:

[Tim Finnegan]

so why are you getting worked up over it :rolleyes:
I wasn't aware that it was. I voiced an opinion, that opinion was challenged, I defended it; a civil debate, nothing more.

[Ele'ill]

I don't think the issue here has anything whatsoever to do with 'library property' - as in some chairs :rolleyes:

[Anarchist Skinhead]

Tim, if not for those "nobodies from RA and AFA (as much as I dont like Red Action myself) you wouldn't even be able to have a paper sale mate. So think what you like, but unless a criticism is coming from somebody involved in similar work it doesnt hold that much weight to me. After all throughou my history as a militant anti-fascist I had been called a "thug" by my erstwhile "allies" whilst protecting their arses from being kicked so hard that their only activity would be internet forums..

[Tim Finnegan]

Tim, if not for those "nobodies from RA and AFA (as much as I dont like Red Action myself) you wouldn't even be able to have a paper sale mate. So think what you like, but unless a criticism is coming from somebody involved in similar work it doesnt hold that much weight to me. After all throughou my history as a militant anti-fascist I had been called a "thug" by my erstwhile "allies" whilst protecting their arses from being kicked so hard that their only activity would be internet forums..
I didn't say that RA or AFA were "nobodies", I said that these Worcester folk were nobodies in contrast to RA and AFA, who I am quite happy to acknowledge have done useful work in fighting the boot-boys of British fascism. You're misreading me pretty seriously there.

[Anarchist Skinhead]

apologies..

[gorillafuck]

well the aim is to keep fascism irrelevant,...so good?To put this in perspective (and I'm not taking a side on the action, just giving context), this is a library in Worcester, Massachusetts. I assume the people that consider there to be any sort of fascist presence whatsoever in Mass have never been to Massachusetts, or Worcester.

Though on the other hand, I seriously doubt people will be pissed off or angry at the antifas...

[Sasha]

To put this in perspective (and I'm not taking a side on the action, just giving context), this is a library in Worcester, Massachusetts. I assume the people that consider there to be any sort of fascist presence whatsoever in Mass have never been to Massachusetts, or Worcester.



still no reason to let them get together, organize, recruit, grow etc etc unhindered.
i, while being one of the most active anti-fascists in the netherlands, maybe spend only 10% of my activist time on anti-fascism. My german friends in places like dortmund or people i know in poland or russia, spend, out of necessity, maybe up to 99% of their time on it. They have to be, every day, on the look out to not get killed, they cant step out of their doors unarmed.
they have almost no time to spend on other activism, they have almost no time to live an life.
so investing some time and effort in keeping them small and unorganized seems well worth it to me.

[gorillafuck]

still no reason to let them get together, organize, recruit, grow etc etc unhindered.
i, while being one of the most active anti-fascists in the netherlands, maybe spend only 10% of my activist time on anti-fascism. My german friends in places like dortmund or people i know in poland or russia, spend, out of necessity, maybe up to 99% of their time on it. They have to be, every day, on the look out to not get killed, they cant step out of their doors unarmed.You still underestimate how few fascists there are in the Northeast US.

This isn't Alabama where the KKK still can pull together a rally. Fascists here don't exist. These five people aren't from Massachusetts, even. These five people which make up this group are from all the states in New England. That's five people from six states.

[Ele'ill]

You still underestimate how few fascists there are in the Northeast US.

This isn't Alabama where the KKK still can pull together a rally. Fascists here don't exist. These five people aren't from Massachusetts, even. These five people which make up this group are from all the states in New England. That's five people from six states.

Slightly related and I'll have to do a fact check but an area in PA near where I've lived has the highest concentration of 'right wing hate' in the entire country. Also, most people don't consider the PNW to be filled with nazis either but they are most definitely here and targeting anti-fascist organizers.

[gorillafuck]

Slightly related and I'll have to do a fact check but an area in PA near where I've lived has the highest concentration of 'right wing hate' in the entire country. Also, most people don't consider the PNW to be filled with nazis either but they are most definitely here and targeting anti-fascist organizers.Pennsylvania is a lot different from Mass, I think.

Though in New Hampshire a little while back there was a really old GOP guy who held a minor office who was found out to be sympathetic to eugenics (and he was forced to resign).

[black magick hustla]

Tim, if not for those "nobodies from RA and AFA (as much as I dont like Red Action myself) you wouldn't even be able to have a paper sale mate. So think what you like, but unless a criticism is coming from somebody involved in similar work it doesnt hold that much weight to me. After all throughou my history as a militant anti-fascist I had been called a "thug" by my erstwhile "allies" whilst protecting their arses from being kicked so hard that their only activity would be internet forums..

god the fairytale that the AFA and the squadists of the SWP destroyed the national front. if the AFA and the squadists didnt exist the world would have been in the same rut - namely the rise of thatcerism, reaganism, etc as an agressive offense against a militant working class. in fact, the NF dissappeared because the bourgeosie absorbed the gutter right wing through thatcherism, not because of some dumb myth of bootstrapped skinheads kicking nazi heads

[Anarchist Skinhead]

god the fairytale that the AFA and the squadists of the SWP destroyed the national front. if the AFA and the squadists didnt exist the world would have been in the same rut - namely the rise of thatcerism, reaganism, etc as an agressive offense against a militant working class. in fact, the NF dissappeared because the bourgeosie absorbed the gutter right wing through thatcherism, not because of some dumb myth of bootstrapped skinheads kicking nazi heads


of course dear :D

[black magick hustla]

of course dear :D

whateves antifascist "hooligan" (lol)

[nuisance]

To put this in perspective (and I'm not taking a side on the action, just giving context), this is a library in Worcester, Massachusetts. I assume the people that consider there to be any sort of fascist presence whatsoever in Mass have never been to Massachusetts, or Worcester.

Though on the other hand, I seriously doubt people will be pissed off or angry at the antifas...
The point is not to let any sort of presence appear, which means preventing, initially, small groups from organising. It's alot easier to smash up some meets consisting of 5 or 10 boneheads than one that has a larger attendance with a potenially more vaired demographic.

[MaximMK]

Fuck yea damn racists

[Aesop]

god the fairytale that the AFA and the squadists of the SWP destroyed the national front.

No need to patronise , no one here says that AFA single handed destroyed the national front. Nice try son


if the AFA and the squadists didnt exist the world would have been in the same rut - namely the rise of thatcerism, reaganism, etc as an agressive offense against a militant working class.

The whole point of that organisation was to clear the streets of a significant far-right street presence and for a left party(left of labour) to have a enviroment where they could effectly agitate, in the hope the void could be filled. *sign*

Fast forward to the UK 2011. We have a Conservative government which also is incidently aggressively on the offensive against the working class, which by the extenstion of your logical the far-right street movement should be dwindling ehy?

Your wrong, guess what in fact the EDL(The only organisation on the far-right that has a noticeable street presence) has got more militant. They have attacked left-wing bookshops and intimidated staff there, they have attacked Socialist party stalls, broken up UAF meetings, disrupted local anti-fascist meetings. Only last week a mob about 25 strong attacked UAF meeting in east london, injuring a few in the process.

It shows that there is a number of factors which decide what happens on the streets. Not merely what happens in parliament.


in fact, the NF dissappeared because the bourgeosie absorbed the gutter right wing through thatcherism,

Man you're terrible, many activists that were involved in AFA acknowledge that the support for the national front(electoral) diminished once thatcher came to power. However this did not stop them having a street presence and attacking SWP, The Militant(Now SPEW) and Communist party paper sellers and party stalls.

Why should comrades have to even think about some knuckle draggers jumping them on a Saturday morning while there doing their Partystalls and trying to engage with the masses?

If the Left can organise its self inside of always relying on state forces to ensure our safety, why is that so bad.


not because of some dumb myth of bootstrapped skinheads kicking nazi heads

Whats wrong with skinheads?, unless your a hipster:lol:

In all seriousness your analysis and tactic is just as bad as the UAF(if not worse), it is just the filpside of the same coin.

On one hand, we have the likes of you saying don't bother combatting any of the far-right, just focus on the bourgeoise and all will be well, and long-term work and pay no attention to the immediate issues that need to be dealt with .

On the other hand you have the likes of the organisation like the UAF that just agitates and doesn't do long-term work of trying to link anti-fascism to anti-capitalism and build local grassroots opposition to the far-right street presence.

I agree with the quote that psycho offered up to a large extent. I remember being at harrow and seeing the EDL turn up with a measly 20 people thinking there is nothing to worry about and these guys are pathetic, 2 years later it is not unusual for them to get about 2000 people to a demo.

Obviously you know the situation in the U.S.A better than me in all probabaility these nazis might not grow, but don't use this example purely for your personal prejudice against antifascism and 'anti-fascists'.

I will be waiting for your reply.

[Stand Your Ground]

You still underestimate how few fascists there are in the Northeast US.

This isn't Alabama where the KKK still can pull together a rally. Fascists here don't exist. These five people aren't from Massachusetts, even. These five people which make up this group are from all the states in New England. That's five people from six states.
You leave em alone and they'll keep growing, we need to show opposition everywhere, no matter how big or how small their groups may be.

[Tim Finnegan]

You leave em alone and they'll keep growing...
Why? They're not a fungus. There's nothing about minuscule fascists sects that makes their growth inevitable, any more than there is of minuscule communist sects- and I'm quite sure that the fash entertain similar delusions about the Workers Socialist Revolutionary Workers Party (Un-Reunified) as we do about the White Nation Power League of Aryan Power.

Has anybody ever seen Give My Head Peace? The episode where Uncle Andy and Big Mervyn start their own loyalist organisation, the Protestant Loyalist Organisation for Protestants, comprised entirely of the two of them? That's what we're dealing with here, not even something as trifling as a National Front-in-waiting. You want to kick their heads in, fine, I could hardly object, but try and do it with a bit more tact than this.

[La Comédie Noire]

I don't know if any of you have ever been to Worcester (I go to college there and occasionally enjoy its bars) , but it isn't a great place to set up a white pride front. :lol:

If the Latinos and Blacks didn't beat the shit out of them, then the many White people with Latino and Black loved ones would have.

[tachosomoza]

Some comrades should travel to the South or West and hit up some KKK rallies. That's where the hard guys are. They also love guns. :(

[Sasha]

Why? They're not a fungus. There's nothing about minuscule fascists sects that makes their growth inevitable, any more than there is of minuscule communist sects- and I'm quite sure that the fash entertain similar delusions about the Workers Socialist Revolutionary Workers Party (Un-Reunified) as we do about the White Nation Power League of Aryan Power.

Has anybody ever seen Give My Head Peace? The episode where Uncle Andy and Big Mervyn start their own loyalist organisation, the Protestant Loyalist Organisation for Protestants, comprised entirely of the two of them? That's what we're dealing with here, not even something as trifling as a National Front-in-waiting. You want to kick their heads in, fine, I could hardly object, but try and do it with a bit more tact than this.


the first time we heard about 3 former speed sniffing white-power kids in an small town close to den-hague setting up a autonomus strasserists pro-bolshevik pro-RAF pro-al quaida neo-nazi group dressing like black-block on steroids we never expected it to take off, cold 3 years later we had almost weekly attacks on our infractrutures, several parts of den hague where an no-go zone for alternative kids, an huge weaponscache with automatic weapons and nailbombs was found and the goverment together with the domestic secretservice had to set an EXIT-project.
and yes, the intensive, confrontative campaing we launched then has been instrumental in the group re-disappearing.

[Tim Finnegan]

the first time we heard about 3 former speed sniffing white-power kids in an small town close to den-hague setting up a autonomus strasserists pro-bolshevik pro-RAF pro-al quaida neo-nazi group dressing like black-block on steroids we never expected it to take off, cold 3 years later we had almost weekly attacks on our infractrutures, several parts of den hague where an no-go zone for alternative kids, an huge weaponscache with automatic weapons and nailbombs was found and the goverment together with the domestic secretservice had to set an EXIT-project.
and yes, the intensive, confrontative campaing we launched then has been instrumental in the group re-disappearing.
Don't you think that so directly comparing the rise of the Autonome Nationalisten to some poxy New English book club is rather over-reductionistic? The material and political circumstances are pretty self-evidently distinct, not least the lack of an existing fascist presence in Massachusetts that can be revived and expanded upon, as in the Nertherlands.
As I said, I'm not in any sense opposed to militant anti-fascism, and I don't even have any problems with kicking the shit out these little book clubbers, I just don't see what this action, in itself, can be said to contribute to any anti-fascist cause.

[Ravachol]

But libraries are public property, typically managed by a local, i.e. municipal or county government, and operated on a non-profit basis for the public good. Isn't that at least very broadly what we're actually arguing for? :confused:


I don't know about you but not me, I'm not a social democrat. State-ownership has nothing to do with Communism, period. It's not like I condone the whole library thing, I like libraries (whether owned by the bourgeois state or privately held for that matter) but get over the few books already. During a strike productivity is halted, in most countries some tires are burned to form a blockade and sometimes a few windows or employer (whether state or private!) property gets smashed, big fucking deal.


god the fairytale that the AFA and the squadists of the SWP destroyed the national front. if the AFA and the squadists didnt exist the world would have been in the same rut - namely the rise of thatcerism, reaganism, etc as an agressive offense against a militant working class. in fact, the NF dissappeared because the bourgeosie absorbed the gutter right wing through thatcherism, not because of some dumb myth of bootstrapped skinheads kicking nazi heads

Well that's not completely true. Fascism and it's many permutations most certainly doesn't rise or fall through the effort of any militant group, it's bound to the dynamics of class society at large. On the other hand, the 'body politic' isn't completely deterministic either. Fascist groups organising locally in order to build up their own networks or assault 'leftist' ones can be challenged in a militant fashion, just like how revolutionary movements rise not through the effort of individual militants (but through the dynamics of class society) but most certainly can be crushed through state repression. While the spread of ideology and activity itself is something beyond the control of militants, the actual networks can be confronted with varying degrees of success. What remains is the question: how serious do we take this or that matter and do we dedicate our resources (or day off :p) to such and such activity.

[Tim Finnegan]

I don't know about you but not me, I'm not a social democrat. State-ownership has nothing to do with Communism, period.
Well, yeah, I did say "at least very broadly", meaning that the property in question is a producer only of use-values, and not of exchange-values, which is to say a service which exists outside of the logic of capitalism.


It's not like I condone the whole library thing, I like libraries (whether owned by the bourgeois state or privately held for that matter) but get over the few books already. During a strike productivity is halted, in most countries some tires are burned to form a blockade and sometimes a few windows or employer (whether state or private!) property gets smashed, big fucking deal.I get that, I'm just saying, it's harder to convincingly sneer about "property" when the property in question is one of the few institutions genuinely run for the public good. This isn't like he's splaying himself across a Starbucks window, he's just saying "public services: maybe don't ruin them for people?".

You have to remember how hard people fought to get institutions like this set up, and how hard they are fighting now to save them. Pissing all over that in pursuit of a petty crusade- and this isn't Moscow, or Berlin, or even London, it's suburban Massachusetts, so it can't exactly be called the necessary suppression of a public menace- isn't exactly the waging of class war as I understand it.

(That said, good point about the validity of militant anti-fascism. As I said, I'm not at all opposed to it in itself, just feeble incarnations like this.)

[redSHARP]

i would replace any property destroyed in the melee, or at least try. i think its the right thing to do.

anyway...i think it is a solid idea to put pressure on fascist groups. i like to think that by letting groups know they are not liked and keeping them on the defensive, they would not be able to grow or be active.

When i found some "operation schoolyard" CD's in my neighborhood, i bought a crap ton of anti-fascist music and handed them out for free. simple actions like that could show a fascist or fascist group that they need to be careful what they do.

However, was fascist group new or old? if it just popped up, then some people should have went as infiltrators and gathered names, pamphlets, emails, anything. intelligence is key to anti-fascism.

[Leftsolidarity]

I give props to those who did this. :thumbup1:
I'm not going to be like some of these people who sit at their computers and critize anyone who actually does something.

[Tim Finnegan]

I'm not going to be like some of these people who sit at their computers and critize anyone who actually does something.
I don't know why people imagine that this is actually an argument. Criticism is not only legitimate, but necessary, and if that's not something that you're prepared to deal with, then stop claiming to be part of a movement.

[Leftsolidarity]

I don't know why people imagine that this is actually an argument. Criticism is not only legitimate, but necessary, and if that's not something that you're prepared to deal with, then stop claiming to be part of a movement.

I never said it was an argument but it seems that all some people want to do is be-little and critize the people who actually do something while they just sit there and be armchair revolutionaries.

[Aspiring Humanist]

It's quite hard to determine what was actually taking place or what is really meant by them holding a "public meeting" but the fact that there were only 5 of them tells me that this was hardly some great breeding ground of Fascism.

It's mindless shit like this that gives anti-Fascists a bad name.

Since when is fucking up fascists giving anyone a bad name?

The only good fascist is a dead one, and it doesn't matter if there were 5 fascists or 100, they needed to be kicked the hell out of that town

[tachosomoza]

Since when is fucking up fascists giving anyone a bad name?

The only good fascist is a dead one, and it doesn't matter if there were 5 fascists or 100, they needed to be kicked the hell out of that town

This is what I'm talking about. Fuck Finnegan, that little keyboard warrior. He'd change in a hurry if he left Scottishland and came to the States.

[Tim Finnegan]

I never said it was an argument but it seems that all some people want to do is be-little and critize the people who actually do something while they just sit there and be armchair revolutionaries.
Criticism stands or falls on its own merit, just like action. Who is doing it is neither here nor there. Presumably, you're familiar with the phrase "ad hominem"?


Since when is fucking up fascists giving anyone a bad name?

The only good fascist is a dead one, and it doesn't matter if there were 5 fascists or 100, they needed to be kicked the hell out of that town It's not the fact of "fucking up fascists", it's the approach taken. There's a balance of costs, here, I'm not convinced that the anti-fascists in question have left themselves in the black.


This is what I'm talking about. Fuck Finnegan, that little keyboard warrior. He'd change in a hurry if he left Scottishland and came to the States.
Honestly, I don't even know what does this even means. Best I can make out is that "Scottishland" is supposed to be an insult? Somehow? But the rest of it I can't make head nor tail of.

[Aspiring Humanist]

My point is that anytime a fascist gets injured it should be cause for celebration..and the only criticism should be that the antifa didn't do enough

[Tim Finnegan]

My point is that anytime a fascist gets injured it should be cause for celebration..and the only criticism should be that the antifa didn't do enough
Romantic, but not particularly practical.

[tachosomoza]

Romantic, but not particularly practical.

Well, whit do ye think should be done, Comrade?

[Bronco]

Since when is fucking up fascists giving anyone a bad name?

The only good fascist is a dead one, and it doesn't matter if there were 5 fascists or 100, they needed to be kicked the hell out of that town

Since it did no real good to the anti-Fascist cause.

[Tim Finnegan]

Well, whit do ye think should be done, Comrade?
Done where? About what? That's an incredibly open-ended question.

[tachosomoza]

Since it did no real good to the anti-Fascist cause.

It sent a message that their shenanigans and plots wouldn't be tolerated.

[bezdomni]

It sent a message that their shenanigans and plots wouldn't be tolerated.

As it has been brought up several times by now, there must be more tactful ways to do this than provoking a brawl in a public library.

It would be interesting to see what people who live in Worcester thought about this.

[Leftsolidarity]

As it has been brought up several times by now, there must be more tactful ways to do this than provoking a brawl in a public library.

It would be interesting to see what people who live in Worcester thought about this.


Nah, a brawl in a library seems good to me.

[tachosomoza]

Fine then. Let them feel free to meet in public. They will eventually feel free to act in public as well. That's what most ivory tower leftists fail to realize. Things are a lot different out in the street.

[Tim Finnegan]

Fine then. Let them feel free to meet in public. They will eventually feel free to act in public as well. That's what most ivory tower leftists fail to realize. Things are a lot different out in the street.
Five losers having a white-power circle-jerk in a library conference room isn't exactly a rally in Trafalgar Square. As I said, there's a balance of costs, here, and I'm really not sure that letting a few losers get away with- well, "get away with"- a poxy little thing like this is worth the price of making anti-fascists look like sociopaths in front of the general public.

[tachosomoza]

Five losers having a white-power circle-jerk in a library conference room isn't exactly a rally in Trafalgar Square. As I said, there's a balance of costs, here, and I'm really not sure that letting a few losers get away with- well, "get away with"- a poxy little thing like this is worth the price of making anti-fascists look like sociopaths in front of the general public.

It doesn't have to be a rally in Trafalgar Square. It takes only one emboldened individual to pull a trigger, swing a bat, or rig a bomb, Finnegan.

[Tim Finnegan]

It doesn't have to be a rally in Trafalgar Square. It takes only one emboldened individual to pull a trigger, swing a bat, or rig a bomb, Finnegan.
And what insight does this truism offer into the situation in question, exactly?

[tachosomoza]

And what insight does this truism offer into the situation in question, exactly?

Christ, you're dense. The rightists go to the meeting. They see no opposition. 4 of them go home and post on Stormfront, Chimpout, VNN, etc. One of them feels the need to do a little more. He thinks: "Well, gee, the commie muds and race traitors didn't fuck with us at the library. They must be afraid of us. Neither did the community come out and voice their opposition to our presence. I can get away with anything! The Community will thank me for ridding the streets of these muds and Jews!" He finds some more like minded dolts, gets hold of some bats, and goes to town. I've seen it happen. I don't give a fuck what you say. NEVER LET FASCISTS HOLD THE FUCKING STREET!

[Tim Finnegan]

Christ, you're dense. The rightists go to the meeting. They see no opposition. 4 of them go home and post on Stormfront, Chimpout, VNN, etc. One of them feels the need to do a little more. He thinks: "Well, gee, the commie muds and race traitors didn't fuck with us at the library. They must be afraid of us. Neither did the community come out and voice their opposition to our presence. I can get away with anything! The Community will thank me for ridding the streets of these muds and Jews!" He finds some more like minded dolts, gets hold of some bats, and goes to town. I've seen it happen. I don't give a fuck what you say.
"Christ, your dense; bizarre, hypothetical series of events culminating in something that could've happened one way or the other, and which this incident does not substantially act to prevent." Yes, clearly, I'm just not tuned in... :confused:


NEVER LET FASCISTS HOLD THE FUCKING STREETDo you always end your stories with irrelevant bellowing, or is this a special treat?

[tachosomoza]

"Christ, your dense; bizarre, hypothetical series of events culminating in something that could've happened one way or the other, and which this incident does not substantially act to prevent." Yes, clearly, I'm just not tuned in... :confused:

Do you always end your stories with irrelevant bellowing, or is this a special treat?

I think your perspective would be vastly different if you have actually dealt with right extremists in the real world, Finnegan.

[Tim Finnegan]

I think your perspective would be vastly different if you have actually dealt with right extremists in the real world, Finnegan.
I think that you could do with trying to respond to my criticism in a thoughtful manner, rather than just making ambiguous remarks about "the street" and "the real world"- especially given that your particular version of this "real world" seems to involve a suburban Massachusetts crawling with militant neo-Nazis.

[tachosomoza]

I think that you could do with trying to respond to my criticism in a thoughtful manner, rather than just making ambiguous remarks about "the street" and "the real world"- especially given that your particular version of this "real world" seems to involve a suburban Massachusetts crawling with militant neo-Nazis.

Finnegan, Finnegan. :rolleyes:

[Leftsolidarity]

Finnegan, can't you just find the enjoyment in the fact that some White power assholes got their asses kicked?:lol:

[Tim Finnegan]

Finnegan, can't you just find the enjoyment in the fact that some White power assholes got their asses kicked?:lol:
Who said I didn't? I just don't think, as I've said, that I don't think that small achievement is worth the damage to the public image of anti-fascists that this caused. It's hard to pose as the defenders of the working class when you're engaged in essentially anti-social behaviour, i.e. disrupting public spaces and damaging public property.
That said, given that my own position has been based on the irrelevance of fascism in that area, I suppose you could observe that it doesn't really matter what people think of anti-fascists, so... I don't know, basically. It just doesn't seem worth the effort.

[Leftsolidarity]

Who said I didn't? I just don't think, as I've said, that I don't think that small achievement is worth the damage to the public image of anti-fascists that this caused. It's hard to pose as the defenders of the working class when you're engaged in essentially anti-social behaviour, i.e. disrupting public spaces and damaging public property.
That said, given that my own position has been based on the irrelevance of fascism in that area, I suppose you could observe that it doesn't really matter what people think of anti-fascists, so... I don't know, basically. It just doesn't seem worth the effort.

First of all who's to say if this did or did not damage their public image? All this has been a discussion of "what ifs, probablys, might haves, etc.". No one has shown that it did any harm to their image or if it helped their image. I also wouldn't say that kicking the shit out of white power people is "anti-social" behavior. It is also always worth the effort to disrupt those kinds of meetings.

[Tim Finnegan]

First of all who's to say if this did or did not damage their public image? All this has been a discussion of "what ifs, probablys, might haves, etc.". No one has shown that it did any harm to their image or if it helped their image.
And, equally, the same could be said of the supporters of this event, as Tachywossisname's odd little hypothetical above seems to illustrate. We're dealing in "what ifs" because that's all any of us actually have. As has been said, ideally we find out , but that's not really feasible, so this really ends up being more about general principles.


I also wouldn't say that kicking the shit out of white power people is "anti-social" behavior.
Oh, c'mon, you know full well that I'm talking about the disruption and damage to the library.


It is also always worth the effort to disrupt those kinds of meetings.
That's a bold claim, given the nature of the meeting. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'd be quite happy to see even two fascists trying to get a pint broken up, but not if it meant beating them away with a sack full of kittens, if you'll allow me a bit of hyperbole. As I said, there's a balance of costs, and while one side has a natural advantage, but even that has its limits.

[tachosomoza]

I think Finnegan just likes playing the old cantankerous Scotsman. :lol:

[bcbm]

a couple years ago we found out some nazis were holding a meeting in a chinese restaurant in some small town near here. we went with about 20 people and stood outside in black bloc giving fliers and talking to people who were going in. eventually some nazi came out and the police showed up and then the nazis were forced to leave. they went and held their meeting at pizza hut instead, we found out later. in the years since this incident we stopped really following their activities. when i get bored and check in on them once a year or so, it turns out they haven't grown at all.

[tachosomoza]

a couple years ago we found out some nazis were holding a meeting in a chinese restaurant in some small town near here. we went with about 20 people and stood outside in black bloc giving fliers and talking to people who were going in. eventually some nazi came out and the police showed up and then the nazis were forced to leave. they went and held their meeting at pizza hut instead, we found out later. in the years since this incident we stopped really following their activities. when i get bored and check in on them once a year or so, it turns out they haven't grown at all.

A lot of fascists get away with scheduling shows and meetings at potentially hostile venues by misrepresenting themselves. For example, the "Saint Louis National Socialist Front" won't book as such, they'll be the "STL German Heritage Group" or somesuch.

[Tim Finnegan]

I think Finnegan just likes playing the old cantankerous Scotsman. :lol:
http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/41425_100001375591101_7477_n.jpg

[tachosomoza]

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/41425_100001375591101_7477_n.jpg

Oh, I'm sorry. Summary of my position: Racists got asskicking, good on the antifa, we need more.

[AntifaArnhem]

About a year ago there where some fascists going out in a local club, we didn't like the fact they where going to the same place as we did so some people beat them up. It was a fair fight 8 against 8, the fascists lost and two of them where hospitalized. The fascists where 'radical nationalists', the problem was that a week later they came back with 10 more people from C18/B&H with swastika tattoos in their neck, boots with white leaces etc. etc. The security guard didn't really bother to kick them out and now there is a ban on antifascist symbolism because it might offend people, while racist scum can still lift their right arm and that doesn't really matter...

So my example shows that beating up some boneheads can really work counter productive, fact is that most people in that particular club where happy the fascists got the shit beaten out of them and now most of them don't even want to go back there.

What I've learned about militant antifascism is that when you've beaten up some nazi's make sure you beat them up the next time you see them and if they didn't really learn anything the second time, beat them up a third time. As soon as they realise this is not going to stop until they stop being idiots they will probably stop being idiots...

[Anarchist Skinhead]

Some years ago we started ignoring nazis follwing misguided advice from a comrade that was arguing we should left them alone and concentrate on doing political stuff which we did. As a result we missed the opportunity when their group was tiny and irrelevant- within few years with big help from police repression against antifascists/anarchist movement nazis control the streets totally, 80% of club have nazi security, they are firmy embedded in local football terrace and yesterday my good comrade nearly died after being assaulted by them and stabbed several time with a bayonet. So my p[erspective on it is bit different- had we acted on the beginning we probably wouldnt have to deal with that shit now- if there would be some "bad press" due to smashed library I would consider it very small price for getting rid of the scum.

[bcbm]

i don't think there is a one size fits all model for this sort of thing. in some areas it may be worth countering the nazis in others i don't think it matters as much. most of the miniscule roleplaying groups in the us aren't worth much attention though, especially their little "meetings" where almost nothing gets done. the real scary bigots have actual political power and are using it to make life worse for immigrants and people of color as we speak.


A lot of fascists get away with scheduling shows and meetings at potentially hostile venues by misrepresenting themselves. For example, the "Saint Louis National Socialist Front" won't book as such, they'll be the "STL German Heritage Group" or somesuch.

i know...

[Fietsketting]

Stopping what, thought? Some poxy little circle jerk? Is that really worth the downright awful impression that this will give the wider community of anti-fascist activism? Because, frankly, it doesn't seem even to me that those involved were in any real or substantial sense combating fascism or protecting the working class, but sacrificing the material interests of the working class, i.e. risking damage to public services, in pursuit of the fulfilment of some self-appointed crusader mission. And that's speaking as somebody who is actually sympathetic to militant anti-fascism- I can't imagine that the centrists who comprise the population at large are somehow likely to see it in any better light.

1) Worchester - No Nazi's
2) Worchester - Nazi's in a public space, foothold : a position usable as a base for further advance

Option 1 yes? I think the antifascists gave a proper welcome and goodbye all at once. No foothold for the fascists. This should be considered a good thing with the amount of locations that are willing to host Nazi events nowadays.

[nuisance]

well what i think we can summarise from this is that leftists cannot stop themselves from attempting to appeal to some polite majority and their actions will be accordingly hindered in regards to what tools to use.

[Tim Finnegan]

1) Worchester - No Nazi's
2) Worchester - Nazi's in a public space, foothold : a position usable as a base for further advance

Option 1 yes? I think the antifascists gave a proper welcome and goodbye all at once. No foothold for the fascists. This should be considered a good thing with the amount of locations that are willing to host Nazi events nowadays.
Again, I don't oppose the act of driving out Nazis in itself, even if they are as pitiful and ineffective a grouping as this. What I'm questioning is the particular approach taken given the circumstances, and speculating as to whether it may in fact be counter-productive. Not all anti-fascist activism has to involve public violence, let alone rather ineffective attempts at violence like this. (I mean, to be quite honest, if they broken a few bones, I'd probably view this in a more positive light, because at least then they'd be putting a few fash out of actions, and if the violence had been more discrete- jumping them on their way out, or something- I'd have no criticisms at all. Chucking a few chairs around in a public library is just kinda silly.)

(Edit: My post was originally as Tachosomoza quotes it, but I guess I accidentally ninja'd it when I was clarifying my position.)

[tachosomoza]

Again, I don't oppose the act of driving out Nazis in itself, even if they are as pitiful and ineffective a grouping as this. What I'm questioning is the particular approach taken given the circumstances, and speculating as to whether it may in fact be counter-productive. Not all anti-fascist activism has to involve reaching straight for the brass knuckles

If I were there, I would have lured them outside and scrapped it out there. I agree with the others who say that the library didn't have any business being trashed.

[Anarchist Skinhead]

sometimes you just can't help things mate- we weren't there. I have been on many actions that decision had to be sometimes taken in split second and things could go wrong and probably some people thought we were not better than fash (fights in the pubs for example, getting fascists in public transport and all sorts of other situations). Sometimes you just can't avoid it.
@ Tim- you have no way of knowing whether some bones were broken or not- from the description it sounds like it was quite likely.

[tachosomoza]

sometimes you just can't help things mate- we weren't there. I have been on many actions that decision had to be sometimes taken in split second and things could go wrong and probably some people thought we were not better than fash (fights in the pubs for example, getting fascists in public transport and all sorts of other situations). Sometimes you just can't avoid it.
@ Tim- you have no way of knowing whether some bones were broken or not- from the description it sounds like it was quite likely.

Well, I think in direct action such as this when we're in full view of the townsfolk we should try to keep it on the streets. Protests, for example. Believe me, I'm as anti property as the next leftist, but it hurts the antifa image when people see libraries, hospitals, etc being trashed. Private property is another matter, though.

[Anarchist Skinhead]

as I said- I agree with you on the principle, but sometimes there is no other choice- for example you said about luring the to the street- what if they don't come out? You are faced with instant chpice- do you go in and do it anyway or do you back off or stand there till pigs arrive?

[tachosomoza]

as I said- I agree with you on the principle, but sometimes there is no other choice- for example you said about luring the to the street- what if they don't come out? You are faced with instant chpice- do you go in and do it anyway or do you back off or stand there till pigs arrive?

In America, people don't like public property getting trashed. Watch and wait until they come out.

[Anarchist Skinhead]

I get it man, I get it- but you have to ask yourself a question in moments like that - do you care more what people think or do you want to do the job? Depending on your priorities at the moment you take appropiate course of action, thats all what I am saying without judging. As I said- we weren't there, we don't know the full story so its just very annoying to read all people that know better what would be the best way to deal with thr issue at hand without being there.Thats all I am saying.

[Agnapostate]

Anti-fascist action of this nature needs to adapt to the nature of fascist organizations and the nature of the environment in which they operate.

By the nature of fascist organizations, I refer to their ideology, tactics, and degree of influence. By the nature of the environment in which they operate, I refer again to degree of influence, and also public perception of fascists and assaults on fascists.

Almost all white supremacist fascists tend to use the term "white nationalist" to describe themselves, but there is a schism (or continuum) between a moderate tendency that has an interest in electoral success, such as the majorities of the white vote gained in David Duke's Louisiana gubernatorial and senatorial races and tend to identify with "Constitutionalism," seeking alliances with paleoconservatism, and a more radical "vanguardist" tendency that sees violent action and potential race war as mechanisms of social change.

In the U.S., there would likely be little to gain from assaults on figures such as the late Samuel Francis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_T._Francis) or the living Jared Taylor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_Taylor), since they are ideologues that are not directly involved in hate crimes and ground-level mobilization. There would be much to lose related to the perception that free speech was being stifled, however. In a more vigorously anti-fascist country (such as I hear France and Germany are, though I don't know if this is true), there may be greater tolerance for shutting them down through force or coercion.

On the other hand, the "vanguardists" include groups and individuals such as The Order (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Order_(group)), members of which murdered Jewish attorney and radio personality Alan Berg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Berg), and Tom Metzger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Metzger), who incited skinhead members of his group White Aryan Resistance to murder an Ethiopian immigrant. Metzger was found civilly liable for this incitement, but was not subject to criminal charges; in light of that, I don't think the public would have been up in arms if some extrajudicial reprisal such as the actions described in this thread had found its way to him at the time.

The public may also understand if the context of such actions is clearly explained, with it being demonstrated that the historical circumstances indicate that some fascist groups will assault and even kill people that they dislike if they reach a certain level of organization, and the problem must be nipped in the bud.

[Feodor Augustus]

hey, lets see what onkel adolf himself, an undisputed expert on the subject on hand i presume, had to say on the subject:

Hitler was a participant and leader of a particularly radical brand of fascist politics. He was not 'an undisputed expert on the subject'; and he was most certainly not known for the insight of his historical analysis. In this particular instance:


Only one thing could have broken our movement – if our enemies had understood its principle and from the first day had smashed the nucleus of our movement with extreme brutality.

Hitler is simply applying the logic of his own movement to that of his opponents. This, however, is a false comparison, primarily because both movements represent very different social forces and objectives. In theory and practice, both movements should have different approaches to both means and ends.

In the German case, the Left did not lose because they failed to understand the 'principle' of violence, but in part because they understood this too well, which was to the detriment of much more important principles. Chief amongst these was unity and common solidarity across all sections of the Left - Communist, Social-Democrat, and Catholic. The big mistake of the KPD was to focus upon its fighting organisations at the expense of broader anti-fascist fronts; which was an even more erroneous strategy to pursue after their main fighting org. (the RFB) was banned in 1929. (They severely struggled to create a replica of even equal worth, never mind one that surpassed its predecessor.)

The organisation that they should of built, was both the one that was least violent, alongside the one that had the broadest appeal: the Proletarian Hundreds. As it stands, the KPD's increasingly militant rhetoric became something of a self-fulfilling prophecy; and when the weaker party speaks in bold and furious tones, sooner or later the stronger party will respond with far greater violence. Not just this, but in the KPD case in particular, more militant rhetoric served to increasingly isolate them from wider support, and led many 'ordinary Germans', - I know this is a troublesome phrase, - to accept the Nazi's chief claim: that they could produce law and order by discipling the unruly, militant and violent left.

The tragedy of the Third Period is, in effect, that its politics were counter-productive, and ultimately contributed to fascist success. The means were considered unimportant, and the ends were all that counted. In the process, they increasingly lost sight of both; and if anyone cares to look, they will find a lot of very similar KPD and Nazi propaganda. Indeed they even fought a couple of plebiscites based on almost identical arguments; and the incorporation of nationalist anti-Versailles rhetoric into the KPD program could only benefit the Nazi narrative.

Back on the main subject under discussion: twenty people beating up five cranks who are discussing politics in a public library, - not even, it seems, trying to recruit or engage with anyone, - appears to come very close to the reasons the Left will state for its opposition to fascism. In effect, as much as anti-fascist work is important, given what has been said about this particular incidence, and particularly the locality in which it occurred, I do not see much that differentiates the anti-fascists means and ends from those of the fascists.

Was there even an attempt to create popular opposition or petition the library beforehand? Did you try to, in the first place, use your superior numbers to get them to leave in a more amicable manner? Or did a gang of twenty people just storm a private meeting being held by someone else, and then proceed to beat up the participants? I do not know the answers to these questions, but a certain set of responses would lead down what I consider to be a very slippery slope; and I'm sure to anyone not on either the far left or far right, if the left behaves like this, they can have no opposition to the right doing the exact same in reverse.

In other words, the content and meaning of anti-fascist action seems to be greatly obscured by this sort of activity. Please, do not rely upon Hitler to provide you with an understanding of the historical process: the way to beat the right is not to copy them, this course can only lead to becoming them. (At the same time, this does not mean militant anti-fascist action in general does not have its uses; but the promotion of and practice of violence should be something of a last resort, and should be conditioned by some kind of evaluation of the balance of forces on the ground - i.e. five cranks in a library does not seem to warrant such a stern response. Perspective is everything.)

[tachosomoza]

I'd support a coordinated resistance movement to groups like the Order, AB, and other violent fascist gangs that have the propensity to kill. Hit them before they hit us or our people.

[Anarchist Skinhead]

Feodor- I suggest trying to apply your "more amicable" approach in Russia and Poland and see how far it will get you.

[tachosomoza]

Feodor- I suggest trying to apply your "more amicable" approach in Russia and Poland and see how far it will get you.

Travel warnings have been issued for Africans and Hispanics in Russia. People get killed over there every day for being the wrong shade of tan. It was like that when the Soyuz was still around, IIRC.

[Feodor Augustus]

Feodor- I suggest trying to apply your "more amicable" approach in Russia and Poland and see how far it will get you.

I suggest you try paying attention to what I wrote. In particular, this bit: 'At the same time, this does not mean militant anti-fascist action in general does not have its uses; but the promotion of and practice of violence should be something of a last resort, and should be conditioned by some kind of evaluation of the balance of forces on the ground - i.e. five cranks in a library does not seem to warrant such a stern response. Perspective is everything.'

Also, this thread is not about Russia or Poland, it concerns Worcester, CA - which judging from some of the posts from people familiar with the area, is not a hotbed of fascism. One size fits all, or perhaps better put, one tactic fits all, is a crude basis on which to evaluate political strategy.

In my previous post, I wrote my opinions of this incident and in response to what someone had suggested with regards Weimar Germany. If you wish to take me up on either of these discussions, fine; but I don't see how anything I wrote relates to the situation in either Russia or Poland, which I don't know a great deal about, but understand to be far more grave than that which has been described in relation to Worcester. This no doubt calls for somewhat different tactics.

Different strokes for different folks, so to speak.