Is Marxism anti-theistic

[ImStalinist]

I know Marx was, but is Marxism, itself, anti-theistic. I am deistic personally :thumbup1:, and I don't believe that Marxism is perfect.

Nor Leninism, however they are great ideologies.

In a semi-related note, we have a group for Anti-Theists but none for Jews and Muslims(okay, we have a group for Christians).

- ImStalinist!

[Queercommie Girl]

Marxism is definitely an atheist ideology, but it's not anti-theist in the same way militant atheism is.

[ImStalinist]

Thanks for the info, I oppose militant Atheism because goes hard on beliviers. Of course, you can criticize religion:laugh:.

[Ocean Seal]

Marxism is definitely an atheist ideology, but it's not anti-theist in the same way militant atheism is.
I would argue that materialism isn't as atheist as most postulate that it is. Materialism is accepting that economic influences are what moves society as opposed to cultural factors. I don't think that I need to believe in Feurbach's universal materialism to believe in economic materialism. To each his own. I'm Christian and an economic materialist.

[Hebrew Hammer]

In a semi-related note, we have a group for Anti-Theists but none for Jews and Muslims(okay, we have a group for Christians).


I could start a nudist kibbutz?

[Queercommie Girl]

I would argue that materialism isn't as atheist as most postulate that it is. Materialism is accepting that economic influences are what moves society as opposed to cultural factors. I don't think that I need to believe in Feurbach's universal materialism to believe in economic materialism. To each his own. I'm Christian and an economic materialist.

Marxism shouldn't be analysed in a narrow economic reductionist sense, and Marxist materialism is not just "economic materialism". If one traces the historical origins of Marxist philosophy, one would see they clearly came from materialism. Incidentally Marxism does not believe that "cultural factors" have no influence on society either, since although ultimately economics determine culture, culture can also counteract on economics dialectically. Similarly, Marxist materialism is also dialectical, it's not just a simplistic linear relationship between base and superstructure.

But it doesn't mean a Marxist cannot also be religious. For one thing, it is a fundamental mistake to treat Marxism like a religion. Marx is not a prophet or a religious figure. So just because one is a Marxist does not mean Marxism takes over one's life, so much that one can't subscribe to other non-Marxist ideologies such as Christianity anymore. Marxism believes in cultural democracy. But this doesn't mean there is some link between Marxism and Christianity at the intrinsic theoretical level.

In fact, you don't even have to agree with every aspect of Marxism, but only some aspects of it. Dogmatism is retarded.

[Zanthorus]

I know Marx was,

Where did you get this idea from? I don't think Marx and Engels' comments on religion would warrant any kind of anti-theistic stance, and in fact would tend towards opposing such a stance, as evidenced by their own hostility to the attempts of the Bakuninists and Blanquists to legislate atheism as a principle of the workers' movement. Prior to that in 'The Holy Family' Marx had also been quite sarcastic and dismissive with regards Bauer's militant atheism, even going as far as saying that Bauer's anti-theism had merely reproduced the dogma of religion in a negative form. And even earlier in 'On the Jewish Question' Marx stated that we do not assert people must overcome their religious narrowness in order to surpass their secular restrictions, but on the contrary they must first overcome the secular restrictions of which which religious narrowness is a product.

A similar theme is in evidence in Engels' Anti-Dühring in the section on 'State, Family, Education', when he briefly mocks Dühring's attempts to legislate atheism. Engels opposes this by linking the development of religion to the reflection of the forces that dominate mens lives. In primitive forms of society this was the forces of nature, and hence the predominance of nature/animal worship and such. But as the productive forces developed, the form of domination changed from one of nature over man, but to that of the forces of social labour in opposition to the producers, the highest development of which is capital. Since religion was a reflection of domination, it could not merely be legislated away by means of education, but on the contrary it's abolition would merely be the reflection of the removal of the material domination which existed in everyday life.


Marxism is definitely an atheist ideology,

The writings of Marx and Engels themselves (For example Marx on Bauer's atheism) actually suggest otherwise. Incidentally this would be consistent with a reading of the German Ideology which sees Marx as thinking essentially along the same lines as Ludwig Wittgenstein in terms of language being embodied in the practices of everyday life, and the distortions of speculative idealism emanating from a removal of language from the language-games in which they originated, since a Wittgensteinian account of meaning would lead us to the conclusion that the proposition that 'God does not exist' is as as nonsensical as 'God exists'.

[Queercommie Girl]

The writings of Marx and Engels themselves (For example Marx on Bauer's atheism) actually suggest otherwise. Incidentally this would be consistent with a reading of the German Ideology which sees Marx as thinking essentially along the same lines as Ludwig Wittgenstein in terms of language being embodied in the practices of everyday life, and the distortions of speculative idealism emanating from a removal of language from the language-games in which they originated, since a Wittgensteinian account of meaning would lead us to the conclusion that the proposition that 'God does not exist' is as as nonsensical as 'God exists'.

To be frank with you, I couldn't care less. The fact that Karl Marx himself may or may not have been an atheist does not in any way make atheism or theism more or less valid. I'm interested in Marxism simply because I consider it to be an useful tool for contemporary socialist movements, I do not worship Marx like a religious prophet, so whatever Marx may have thought about religion does not influence what I think about religion. (For the record, I am an atheist but I have an intellectual interest in some religious philosophies)

[Ocean Seal]

I know Marx was, but is Marxism, itself, anti-theistic. I am deistic personally :thumbup1:, and I don't believe that Marxism is perfect.

Nor Leninism, however they are great ideologies.

In a semi-related note, we have a group for Anti-Theists but none for Jews and Muslims(okay, we have a group for Christians).

- ImStalinist!
I think we also have a group for Muslims as well as one for Buddhists, and Pagans.


http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=234
http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=302
http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=529

[ZeroNowhere]

To be frank with you, I couldn't care less. The fact that Karl Marx himself may or may not have been an atheist does not in any way make atheism or theism more or less valid.
It does, though, because Marx wasn't non-theistic on a whim. Indeed, the development of his criticism of religion formed the starting-point of his whole development as a communist, and as such was one of the most thoroughly worked out parts of his system. The fact that Karl Marx may have not been a theist may not by itself make theism more or less valid, the fact that Karl Marx was not a theist and was also a bloody smart guy does, to put things briefly.

In any case, Marxism is incompatible with the idea of a God, and this is based on Hegel's argument, which Marx was quite aware of, as was Feuerbach, that a God is incompatible with materialism, that previous attempts at justifying God were condemned to failure by the use of materialist assumptions (eg. the conventional cosmological argument), and hence that the vindication of materialism could only reduce God to nothing by annihilating the concept of pure subjectivity, the universal subject. Communism is merely practical materialism, the materialist program is that of returning the alienated human essence to man, and this is precisely because it is premised on the critique of a god. This would also make Marxism incompatible with the idea that God is a hypothesis.

On the other hand, Marxism is not 'anti-theistic', because Marxism is not against ideas, but against reality. Our concern is with abolishing the real alienation of the human essence from man, not with stopping people from thinking that the human essence is alienated from man; people do not drown, after all, because they think that water has the power to drown them. In actual fact one could change people's minds about theism as much as one wanted, but God would still reign on Earth until the real alienation of the human essence was abolished. We are not against mental spectres, but rather against their real bases.


The writings of Marx and Engels themselves (For example Marx on Bauer's atheism) actually suggest otherwise. Incidentally this would be consistent with a reading of the German Ideology which sees Marx as thinking essentially along the same lines as Ludwig Wittgenstein in terms of language being embodied in the practices of everyday life, and the distortions of speculative idealism emanating from a removal of language from the language-games in which they originated, since a Wittgensteinian account of meaning would lead us to the conclusion that the proposition that 'God does not exist' is as as nonsensical as 'God exists'.Well, yes, and as such atheism only has sense in a society where social practice is alienated from individuals, and only as a protest against these conditions which dissolves as soon as they do to give way to, as you said, both sides being nonsensical. Of course, thought and language, and the human subjective essence, being constituted by the ensemble of social relations (or corresponding social forms of life, as after all social relations do not exist separately from these) in which the individual participates is a prerequisite of Wittgensteinian philosophy, but the recognition of this as the human essence in concrete practice is premised on socialism.

[Queercommie Girl]

It does, though, because Marx wasn't non-theistic on a whim.


Well, I'm an atheist, but like I said, "Marxism" does not really dictate my life in any personal sense, because I don't see it as a personal religion or "philosophy of life". I'm basically an utilitarian who thinks Marxism is an useful tool for socialist movements. I'm not a dogmatic "pure Marxist".

So although I'm an atheist, I don't mind religious people becoming socialists as long as their socialist programme is ok. As long as their politics is ok, I basically stay out of their personal life. I couldn't care less what they like to wear, whether they like sports or not, or whether they go to church on sundays. I believe in cultural freedom and democracy and essentially I am a cultural anarchist. Socialists have no right to dictate to other people how they should live their personal lives.

[Queercommie Girl]

the fact that Karl Marx was not a theist and was also a bloody smart guy does, to put things briefly.


Marx was also rather queerphobic and a very smart guy. Does this imply that queerphobia can be justified? Nope.

And for the record, there are many "smart guys" out there who are not atheists as well.

[ZeroNowhere]

Marx was also rather queerphobic and a very smart guy. Does this imply that queerphobia can be justified? Nope.

And for the record, there are many "smart guys" out there who are not atheists as well.I don't think that you got my point there, quite aside from the fact that I don't recall there being much evidence for Marx being anti-homosexual. I was just summarizing the rest of that first paragraph in a pithy phrase.


Well, I'm an atheist, but like I said, "Marxism" does not really dictate my life in any personal sense, because I don't see it as a personal religion or "philosophy of life". I'm basically an utilitarian who thinks Marxism is an useful tool for socialist movements. I'm not a dogmatic "pure Marxist".So you're a utopian socialist who thinks that Marxism may be a useful means towards that end. Fair enough.

[Queercommie Girl]

I don't recall there being much evidence for Marx being anti-homosexual.


There are quite a lot of such evidence, but there are some disputes regarding this matter.

Besides, note I said queerphobic in general, not just homophobic. Even if Marx was not homophobic, he might still have been transphobic. The two aren't exactly the same thing.



So you're a utopian socialist who thinks that Marxism may be a useful means towards that end. Fair enough.
I'm not an "utopian socialist", I'm an non-dogmatic socialist who believes socialism must evolve and move on with the times or otherwise it's dead. Objectively speaking I'm actually less "utopian" than most dogmatic Marxists.

Unlike dogmatic Marxists, I don't believe Karl Marx was correct on everything, especially not in areas which are not his expertise. I don't see Marx as some kind of "quasi-religious prophet" or someone like Jesus who is supposed to tell us "how to live our lives". Marxism has absolutely nothing to do with the "philosophy of life" or any kind of "lifestyle philosophy", and it's immensely stupid to think that it does. For one thing, it shows a lack of understanding of what Marxism is about.

One reason why I'm definitely not an utopian socialist is because I'm generally even more critical of classical versions of utopian socialism (e.g. Owenism etc) than I'm of classical Marxism. Utopian socialism is even more unscientific and dogmatic than classical Marxism is.

[ZeroNowhere]

The existence of a god is not a matter of 'lifestyle philosophy', although it is a matter of philosophy, and the rejection of this forms part of the basis of Marx's philosophical viewpoint. In addition, I'm fairly sure that most dogmatic Marxists, myself included, would not view Marx as attempting to prescribe a personal lifestyle. Utopian socialism doesn't have much to do with dogmatism per se, however, and indeed the founders of currents of utopian socialism can hardly have been particularly dogmatic themselves, although they were utopian socialists all the same.

[Queercommie Girl]

The existence of a god is not a matter of 'lifestyle philosophy',


No, but practising religion (like going to a church on sundays) is. Besides, not all religions actually believe in God or gods.



although it is a matter of philosophy, and the rejection of this forms part of the basis of Marx's philosophical viewpoint.


I don't disagree. You can see at the top of this thread that I think objectively Marxism is an atheist philosophy. And I am indeed an atheist myself.

However, does this mean I'm going to discriminate against socialists who are religious, or actively try to stop them from believing in religions? No.



In addition, I'm fairly sure that most dogmatic Marxists, myself included, would not view Marx as attempting to prescribe a personal lifestyle.


Ok. I believe Marxism is invaluable as an economic analysis of capitalism and a political strategy, but Marx certainly isn't infallible in other areas, even though he may still have interesting ideas in these other areas which are not his focus or expertise.



Utopian socialism doesn't have much to do with dogmatism per se, however, and indeed the founders of currents of utopian socialism can hardly have been particularly dogmatic themselves, although they were utopian socialists all the same.


Utopian socialism is unscientific, and things that are unscientific are also dogmatic, since they cannot respond to and change according to the times. They are unable to move forward to analyse concrete contemporary reality, they are forever stuck in the narrow idealistic framework from the era in which they were first formulated.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Materialism is the basis for marxist atheism. Material before ideas.

basically it means that there must be a physical world before there is an ideal world. Thus, this is contrary to theism because in most religions (which are idealist) start off with a conscious being or thought or whatever that has created all mater. In the idealist world, the idea comes before physical existence.

There are some theist marxists out there. im not going to criticize their level of marxyness just because they believe in god. if that is waht helps motivate them to fight for the proletariat, then fine.