Europe waking up (aka let's go camping!)

[Havet]

http://europeanrevolution.net/

Participatory democratic movements are emerging all over Europe. I'm surprised there is no thread in OI about this, especially after Barcelona's and Paris' police spanking towards peaceful protesters, on the 27th and 29th of May, respectively.

English video explaining Spanish protests

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Police brutality on Barcelona

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The #acampada phenomenon has spread to many cities across Portugal, Spain, France, Greece, etc. You can follow up on social networks livestreams, tweets or pics/videos (if you understand catalan, spanish, french, portuguese, greek, etc). Those currently most popular are from barcelona and paris:

Barcelona
http://acampadabcn.wordpress.com/
http://www.facebook.com/Acampadabcn
http://twitter.com/#!/Acampadabcn (http://twitter.com/#%21/Acampadabcn)

Paris
http://twitter.com/#!/Acampadaparis (http://twitter.com/#%21/Acampadaparis)
http://yfrog.com/user/Acampadaparis/photos

All livestreams available here (from several european cities)
http://www.spanishrevolution.eu/

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Thoughts?

[Kotze]

:crying: I wish my Spanish wasn't so crappy, because there's something about the proposals (http://www.democraciarealya.es/?page_id=234) by Democracia Real Ya that bugs me a bit.

Even considering it's a short outline, I think they aren't concrete enough about what proportionality really means (aside from mentioning proportionally representing blank votes in the legislature :rolleyes:) or how to avoid that specific political currents aren't discriminated against (any election system that changes much about that has to be defined much broader than just a method for counting ballots).

I also found what they said there about dealing with housing rather ham-fisted. Don't they know about land-value taxation? :closedeyes:

[Havet]

Just an important note regarding my first post:

Its also quite interesting to see how these movements are far more open to EVERY opinion (ex: some extreme-right ideologies), representing a true participatory democracy, even in their online message boards, when comparing to revleft which is notorious for its 'purity of thought'.

I guess this could be a reason as to why revolutionary leftism hasn't really been able to 'market' itself to ordinary people. Its too closed on itself.

[Kotze]

Dunno about that, the proposals by Democracia Real Ya look rather leftish to me, though I can understand that they don't want to be associated with the official socialists...

IMHO one of the biggest problems with the radical left in the Europe and the US is that, for all the talk about not being idealistic, they make very little use of appeals to self-interest, which I find really odd given what the wealth distribution actually is and how people react when they are confronted with that piece of reality.

Have you used the opportunity to shamelessy plug for mobile-phone voting?

Which message boards have the most talk? The link to the one on democraciarealya.es displays a blank page for me :/

[Thirsty Crow]

Just an important note regarding my first post:

Its also quite interesting to see how these movements are far more open to EVERY opinion (ex: some extreme-right ideologies), representing a true participatory democracy, even in their online message boards, when comparing to revleft which is notorious for its 'purity of thought'. I encountered similar notions of all-inclusive direct/participatory democracy as the "true" direct/participatory democracy in relation to the students movement in the country where I live.

First, I don't think that this kind of an approach, which basically functions without any consideration for a broader political and historical context, is really useful. What I aim at is that populism and (crypto)fascism exhibit a historically validated tendency towards adopting the rhetoric of direct democracy and direct action, but in political action these groups function practically as the direct opposite of those modes of politics they adopt in rhetoric.
I would only consider advocating for those political groups to enjoy the platform of the movement under the condition that they are unable to engage in intimidation and violence, and that a solid portion of the movement will, in fact, vehemently argue against them.

Though, what is unclear in your post is if the concrete openness towards this kind of positions is exhibited within the assemblies or mostly/only in message boards. Basically, message boards do not interest me in this context and I don't think you can take up a "moral highground" and criticise this board for the existing policy towards fascists and nationalists. The reasons are quite clearly specified.


I guess this could be a reason as to why revolutionary leftism hasn't really been able to 'market' itself to ordinary people. Its too closed on itself.
Two things:

1) I don't think that revolutionary socialism should "market" itself since propaganda is not the decisive factor in workers' self-organization and political practice. This is fairly general, but we could go into details on some specific forms of revolutionary groups' activities which are successful or unsuccessful. However, I'd insist that propaganda is an auxiliary tool, dependent on the concrete conditions relating to workers' militancy and class struggle within the wider geographical area.

2) I don't agree with the frantic emphasis on "pluralism". I think that revolutionaries should always put the class perspective to the fore, though that does not mean they should not engage in immediate economic and political struggles for specific reforms. But, in my opinion, they should always point out the character, structure, and historical record of the, let's say, Labour Party, no matter that they might work with a specific group of the members on a specific campaign (to be clear, this is a hypothetical example). If Labour members have a problem with that and abandon the campaign, well that'd just show how interested are they for a specific political cooperation which wouldn't be based on one side's total hegemony. But when it comes to the so called far right, I think it would be an outright abomination if revolutionary groups were to passively accept their hate speech and fail to tear them apart (with arguments and informed positions worthy of a human being). Revolutionary socialists tend to oppose not only capitalist exploitation, but all forms of social discrimination and domination as well, and they should continue to do so.

[Havet]

Have you used the opportunity to shamelessy plug for mobile-phone voting?

Not quite sure what youre talking about. If it is what I think it is, then yes, ive been trying to promote it.


Which message boards have the most talk? The link to the one on democraciarealya.es displays a blank page for me :/

From what i've seen Barcelona's has the most topics and replies:

http://acampadadebarcelona.org/index.php?option=com_kunena&view=listcat&catid=1&lang=en&func=listcat&Itemid=54

[Havet]

Also, 50.000 greeks from #greekrevolution, at Sintagma, surround greek parliament, but the representatives have managed to leave already. Live stream here (blog in greek):

http://100greekblogs.blogspot.com/2011/05/update-38-link-facebook.html

News from here (website in spanish):

http://www.esperantia.com/2011/05/50000-personas-toman-el-parlamento.html

[Kotze]

Democracia Real Ya — interview in commie newspaper (English) (http://www.cpgb.org.uk/article.php?article_id=1004417) about claims of not being left or right or a new party.

[Havet]

BTW, this video should explain what is happening in europe and where it came from (read description of video too):

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[Kotze]

Video is not available in my country :/

[Havet]

Video is not available in my country :/

Blame copyright :/

[DienBienPhu]

Situation in Spain is particular ; in this country, economical crisis hit deeply petty-bourgeoisie, more than elsewhere.
I don't think it could spread easily in other european countries. In France, it yet failed.

[Havet]

To anyone who can't view the video, check it on vimeo instead of youtube, see if it works:

http://vimeo.com/24586692 (give it some minutes before it is finished converting)

Also this is relevant:

http://vimeo.com/24390680




Situation in Spain is particular ; in this country, economical crisis hit deeply petty-bourgeoisie, more than elsewhere.
I don't think it could spread easily in other european countries. In France, it yet failed.

I disagree, its just as bad, if not worse, in Portugal and Greece.

If you have doubts that it can spread quick, then im sorry to inform you you are mistaken. It is already a global movement. See the number of permanent camps with the same goal on this world map:

http://www.thetechnoant.info/campmap/

[DienBienPhu]

In Portugal or in Greece yes, but not in France or Germany.

And it it is not because "permanent camps" are signposted on a map that they are really launched. Apparently it is sufficient to post an appel on Indymedia to be added to this map.

But yes I can mistaken, and it would be better. Even if i'm sceptic, I take part in this meeting with good will.

[Havet]

In Portugal or in Greece yes, but not in France or Germany.

Well, in france they recently had police also assault on the peaceful protesters:

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And in germany there are acampada movements as well, although recently their website has been attacked, they still retain a facebook page (without as many supporters as spanish or greek pages, though): https://www.facebook.com/pages/POR-UNA-DEMOCRACIA-REAL-YA-Berl%C3%ADn-se-une/102988009792107


And it it is not because "permanent camps" are signposted on a map that they are really launched. Apparently it is sufficient to post an appel on Indymedia to be added to this map.

Of course, there is that problem. But a quick search on google, facebook and twitter reveals many of the movements are active and growing on other cities, including other continents. Why, even in Wisconsin they recently did a video to support the spanish protesters:

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But yes I can mistaken, and it would be better. Even if i'm sceptic, I take part in this meeting with good will.

Sorry if i seemed aggresive in any way

[Kotze]

*necroing*

Hey, there's a group advocating sortition, Sorteo Político / Partido Azar (http://equalitybylot.wordpress.com/2011/09/13/sortition-in-spain/) — have you heard about these guys?

[Havet]

*necroing*

Hey, there's a group advocating sortition, Sorteo Político / Partido Azar (http://equalitybylot.wordpress.com/2011/09/13/sortition-in-spain/) — have you heard about these guys?

I've heard of sortition before, but not of that party. thanks for the link!