Fidel Castro and Muammar Gaddafi are the same

[CesareBorgia]

Both are bourgeois nationalists.

Both megalomaniac dictators for over 40 years

Both oversee a repressive police state regime with snitches and spys on every block and
arrest people for such things as 'dangerousness.' Complaining about hunger will get you a
two year minimum stay in one of Castro's gulags.

Both have relativity high human development in their geographic area. And a developed system of social welfare.
With Gaddafi actually being ahead in this regard.

Both can claim to have fought imperialism and supported 'national-liberation' movements. In Africa, the middle east, latin america.

Both have governments with a strong public sector and elements of economic planning. And likewise both are dismantling
this in recent years.

Gaddafi laid-off 400,000 state-workers in 2007, not to be outdone, Castro plans to do the same with 1,000,000 workers this year.

Both want a rapprochement with the western powers with Gaddafi being slightly more successful in this regard.

Conclusions:

Petty-bourgeois nationalism is a dead end

The petty-bourgeois 'left' in the west is bankrupt

Only the working-class can solve the problems of society

[Spawn of Stalin]

I expect some people are going to want to see unbiased sources for some of your claims.

[Imposter Marxist]

http://www.cheatengine.org/forum/files/this_thread_again_197.jpg

[RedSonRising]

Except for the fact that Castro led a revolutionary coalition of peasant-based guerrillas in coordination with urban proletarian activists-not a nationalist coup d'etat, established state organs with which the workers actively engage in community decision-making instead of establishing a military hierarchy, made it so that the accumulation of exploitative private capital is illegal, raised the average standard of living as one the highest in the third world despite its trade isolation and limited production capabilities, and where a state re-structuring of the economy in conditions of crisis is attempting to relocate and reintegrate workers instead of simply abandoning them as completely alienated units of labor.

Cuba's far from perfect, but comparing the successes the working classes achieved in the Cuban Revolution to the constantly degenerating ideas of a madman ruling an oil-rich dictatorship in Libya is a severe distortion of the political realities of these countries.

[Ocean Seal]

Both are bourgeois nationalists.

Both megalomaniac dictators for over 40 years

Both oversee a repressive police state regime with snitches and spys on every block and
arrest people for such things as 'dangerousness.' Complaining about hunger will get you a
two year minimum stay in one of Castro's gulags.

Both have relativity high human development in their geographic area. And a developed system of social welfare.
With Gaddafi actually being ahead in this regard.

Both can claim to have fought imperialism and supported 'national-liberation' movements. In Africa, the middle east, latin america.

Both have governments with a strong public sector and elements of economic planning. And likewise both are dismantling
this in recent years.

Gaddafi laid-off 400,000 state-workers in 2007, not to be outdone, Castro plans to do the same with 1,000,000 workers this year.

Both want a rapprochement with the western powers with Gaddafi being slightly more successful in this regard.

Conclusions:

Petty-bourgeois nationalism is a dead end

The petty-bourgeois 'left' in the west is bankrupt

Only the working-class can solve the problems of society
Small island nation with imperialist embargo. Yep, its all that evil Castro's fault. He truly wanted to cut those workers, that bourgeois nationalist.

[MattShizzle]

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e162/MattGo74/Notthisshit-1.jpg

[CesareBorgia]

Except for the fact that Castro led a revolutionary coalition of peasant-based guerrillas in coordination with urban proletarian activists-not a nationalist coup d'etat,

He lead a group of petty-bourgeois radicals... yeah, nothing like Gaddafi...



established state organs with which the workers actively engage in community decision-making

You mean like Gaddafi's fictitious 'peoples committees?' dont kid yourself, workers arent allowed to make decisions


instead of establishing a military hierarchy

OK, here I'm starting to think you might be trolling. There is no military hierarchy in Cuba? Its run by a 4 star general and chief Cuban spymaster who always wears his uniform for Christs sake.

,
made it so that the accumulation of exploitative private capital is [B]illegal

yes, "'exploitative' private capital" as opposed to the non-exploitive capital that the state, business men, and foreign capitalists extract.


,
raised the average standard of living as one the highest in the third world

Same goes for Gaddafi, and this was stated in the OP. Libya has the highest HDI and one of the highest GDP per cap in Africa, among other things.


despite its trade isolation

I love this part, as if the 5 billion plus dollars in free Soviet money never happened. Libya also went through many years of trade isolation.


and limited production capabilities

Whose fault is this? Castro had decade after decade of time and aid that would make Mubarak blush.

,
and where a state re-structuring of the economy in conditions of crisis is attempting to relocate and reintegrate workers instead of simply abandoning them as completely alienated units of labor.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:


Cuba's far from perfect

Now there's an understatement.

[RedSonRising]

He lead a group of petty-bourgeois radicals... yeah, nothing like Gaddafi...


You clearly know nothing about the Cuban revolution. The July 26th movement, in coordination with urban working class activists who organized massive general strikes, were mobilized throughout the countryside with the support of the peasantry (many illiterate) in order to overthrow Batista and rectify the injustices of US imperialism and social inequality. There was not enough of a petty bourgeoisie to carry out such an insurrection. So, yes, nothing like Gaddafi. Use your brain and read some books.



You mean like Gaddafi's fictitious 'peoples committees?' dont kid yourself, workers arent allowed to make decisions

They're not fictitious. I've visited the country, unlike yourself obviously, and have thoroughly examined the shifting and complex dynamics that occur between the State, unions, workers, and local committees. These have evolved from an early cooperative design, to a largely centralized planning structure, which is now being decentralized again, specifically in the agricultural sector where federal planning was segmented into municipal decision-making. Believe it or not, politics exist in Cuba beyond party domination. Try to grasp the concept. Explain to me why there hasn't been a "Latin/Cuban Spring" in the wake of worldwide social unrest? The people know that their survival in the crisis depends on their engagement with the State and its organs.



OK, here I'm starting to think you might be trolling. There is no military hierarchy in Cuba? Its run by a 4 star general and chief Cuban spymaster who always wears his uniform for Christs sake.

You're the troll here, comparing two different societal organizations and lumping them with vague generalizations and superficial assessments. The armed forces in Cuba, as an institution, is not particularly empowered in the political processes of the country. There is no population to forcibly exploit, nor an arms race to indulge in with funds, nor an active set of military operations abroad. Gadaffi's coup was an overthrow by a coordinated group of military officers, which had much to gain in the context of Arab-Israeli conflicts by espousing a pseudo-left nationalism empowering the military. The interests of the military are basic and do not have prominence in Cuba. Castro as a former Comandante has clearly integrated the armed forces into the government, but its design for defense has more to do with it than any kind of military hierarchy taking place.


yes, "'exploitative' private capital" as opposed to the non-exploitive capital that the state, business men, and foreign capitalists extract.

A Cuban 'ruling class' would have no desire to focus their scarce financial pool into maintaining some of the the best healthcare and eduction systems in the hemisphere and ensuring the equal distribution of necessary goods. If Cuba were a first-world country, that layer of fat might be enough, but the class character of a capitalist system does not produce this. The people vote regularly and voice their opinions through local and national representatives through the national assembly. I've heard it from citizens themselves. Try again.



Same goes for Gaddafi, and this was stated in the OP. Libya has the highest HDI and one of the highest GDP per cap in Africa, among other things.

It's doing this through its oil exports-a luxury Cuba doesn't have. A ruling class in Libya can easily make concessions in social services to appease the masses with such a valuable commodity on the global market, but in Cuba, the only thing they had going for them was sugar cane exports and regional political weight bringing soviet imports, which don't benefit them anymore. A ruling class in Cuba simply couldn't make themselves rich and powerful to the extent a traditional capitalist class would and simultaneously give Cuban society a glaringly successful foundation of infrastructure.


I love this part, as if the 5 billion plus dollars in free Soviet money never happened. Libya also went through many years of trade isolation.

Cuba was doing a lot better with aid from the Soviet Union, but that was a long time ago, when the USSR was still in existence and defense against the US's rampant raid on Latin American social movements was priority. We are discussing Cuba's present and recent situation. Libya has a multitude of countries in the Arab League-also oil-rich and economically thriving-to trade with and easily create cost-effective plans for domestic development. Cuba has only just began developing ties with newly rising ALBA countries. There is no comparison here.


Whose fault is this? The US' again? Castro had decade after decade of time and aid that would make Mubarak blush.

The fact it's a Caribbean island whose economy was designed to produce sugar-cane as a colony of exploitative first-world countries. Colonialism , if you didn't know, continues to have an effect on recently "independent" countries who never developed a functional economic base with which to develop autonomously. Industrialization was not sustainable; it was attempted, and failed. Much of the Soviet technology and resources provided did not suit the environment of Cuba. These 'decades and decades' you speak of saw great improvements in economic prosperity across the population. But again, if you haven't heard, the Soviet Union was dissolved some 18 years ago.



:laugh::laugh::laugh:

You going to try and counter my statement supported by various documented observations available online at your disposal, or you going to keep trying and support your distorted analysis with emoticons?



Now there's an understatement.

I'm being realistic, you're being childish. Go visit Cuba, read up on the history of the two nation's development, read some Marxist theory, examine the class dynamics of each region, and come back when you're done trying to fit together two separate entities that have little material political relationship.

[CesareBorgia]

quote

Sorry, I dont have time to go post by post and answer all your points line by line.

You obviously have a snobish attitude and I do not wish to carry on a conversation with you.

You dont even know that peasantry is part and parcel of the petty-bourgeoisie, so you are in no position to tell me to go read Marx.

All I will say is that beyond the superficial these regimes have the same social basis; bourgeois nationalism clinging to state property.

Cheers.

[Property Is Robbery]

That's dumb

[Imposter Marxist]

Cheers?! What a stunning clash of titans. http://www.blackhatguide.net/photos/blackhat-Why-Click_this_thread.jpg

I'm in an image macro mood.

[RedSonRising]

Sorry, I dont have time to go post by post and answer all your points line by line.

You obviously have a snobish attitude and I do not wish to carry on a conversation with you.

You dont even know that peasantry is part and parcel of the petty-bourgeoisie, so you are in no position to tell me to go read Marx.

All I will say is that beyond the superficial these regimes have the same social basis; bourgeois nationalism clinging to state property.

Cheers.

I gave you detailed answers as to why I disagree. Forgive me if I gave off a snobbish attitude, sincerely, because I generally detest that type of online behavior, but it likely resulted from you giving unsatisfactory challenges to the contentions I pointed out and ridiculing those points, when you are the one who made a largely unfounded parallel between two very different leaderships. If you can't back up your claims beyond vague accusations, then your position will not be taken seriously. Considering the peasantry, a vastly depraved and oppressed segment of the Latin American population dominated by the violence of land-owning elites, part of the petty-bourgeoisie simply displays a lack of proper understanding of the region's class politics, especially when you ignore the fact that much of the urban proletariat engaged in political insurrection alongside the rural coalition of forces. I'm sorry to speak harshly but the correlation has little support. "State property" in these cases mean two different things and have produced two different sets of conditions under two different established leaderships. I strongly recommend you visit Cuba, as I would anyone, and get a better understanding of the unique complexities which challenge the people of that country.

[Hebrew Hammer]

I expect some people are going to want to see unbiased sources for some of your claims.

Me for one, idk, I'm down with comrade Castro.

[Aspiring Humanist]

Complaining about hunger will get you a
two year minimum stay in one of Castro's gulags.

Both have relativity high human development in their geographic area. And a developed system of social welfare.
With Gaddafi actually being ahead in this regard.


citations needed

[MarxSchmarx]

Those of you posting old internet pictures mocking this thread - you really need to articulate your political critique better. I mean, ok, so you think it is lame and repetitive to claim Castro and Gaddafi are basically nationalist bourgeosie whom the left should abandon. Then articulate what is wrong with this view! Don't just put up a picture of an orangatang or a cat moaning about the subject. This isn't a political argument and reflects poorly on you, not the OP.

[CesareBorgia]

citations needed

Libya has the highest HDI in Africa, google it. And here is a Time article from 1959 talking about how poor Libya is. Gaddafi can claim to have
helped Libyans as much as Castro has, much more so actually, and a 77 year lifespan is no justification for Castro's disgusting dictatorship.

http://cia-world-fact-book.findthebest.com/compare/72-105/Cuba-vs-Libya



As for the hunger thing;

Here a man complains of hunger
_6k9CpombbU

After a visit from Castro's police he makes this video saying his sorry and is scared.
VvZjijbwUDs

It did him no good as he was arrested shortly after and charged with "dangerousness"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/11/cuba-internet-hunger-rant-marcos

A Cuban appeals court upheld a two-year prison sentence for "public dangerousness" against a man who became an internet celebrity after his drunken rant about hunger on the island was captured by a film crew.

The court rejected Juan Carlos Gonzalez Marcos's plea for leniency in central Havana yesterday, according to Richard Rosello, who observed the hearing on behalf of the Havana-based Cuban Commission on Human Rights and National Reconciliation, a leading rights group.

Gonzalez Marcos, known by the nickname Panfilo, appeared obviously inebriated when he burst into an interview for a documentary on Cuban music, waving his arms and screaming: "What we need here is a little bit of chow!"

He continued for more than 90 seconds, telling the camera about how Cubans are going hungry in a country where the communist system is supposed to provide for all citizens' basic needs.

A video of the tirade ended up on YouTube and was viewed more than 450,000 times after being posted in April. It became a rallying cry for exile groups in Florida, where some hailed Gonzalez Marcos as one of the few Cubans who dare speak frankly about the difficulties of daily life on the island.

In a second video posted on YouTube, Gonzalez Marcos expressed regret that his outburst was used for political ends – but that was not enough to sway the appeals court. Rosello said Gonzalez Marcos was returned to a prison outside Havana after the hearing.

Two western diplomats who tried to observe the proceedings said they were asked to leave before they began. The diplomats, who spoke to The Associated Press on condition they not be named due to their governments' rules, said court authorities told them the hearing was open only to the Cuban public.

Cuba tolerates no official opposition to its single-party system, and the island's dissidents and political activists have little organised following, though infighting and disputes among their minuscule ranks are common.

The government did not respond to requests for comment on Gonzalez Marcos's case.

[CynicalIdealist]

CB is wrong about the quality of life in Cuba relative to Libya. Cuba has a higher standard of living than Libya.

[Jose Gracchus]

Welfare = socialism. Adore the red drapes. Ad nauseum. [yawn]

[pranabjyoti]

At least we can say that Welfare > capitalism.

[EmpireCrusher]

Well, CesareBorgia, I would make the same argument if I watched fox news on a regular basis.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

You mean like Gaddafi's fictitious 'peoples committees?' dont kid yourself, workers arent allowed to make decisions



You know this how?

Have you ever researched this subject thoroughly? Have you ever been to Cuba, and to Libya, and compared the peoples' committees with the CDRs?

Knowledge is the last bastion against ignorance, and thankfully, some of us (I know I can speak for a couple of others) have been to Cuba and seen the CDRs in action. No, they're not perfect, especially on a national level, but to compare them with the confused musings of an idiot like Qadaffi is wholly inaccurate.