Ratko Mladic arrested in Serbia

[Tommy4ever]

Notorius Bosnian Serb war criminal and military commander Ratko Mladic has been arrested in Serbia.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13561407

Amongst other crimes he is accused of being responsible for the Srebrenica massacre.

[Sasha]

its disgusting how almost all dutch media seize upon this to try and wash again the blood of the hands of the dutch government/military command

[Omsk]

It is also dissapointing to see Western media in general 'celebrating' this,when they (Western leaders) are the ones who caused much of the chaos and horror..

Its also dissapointing to see a lot of people support Mladic,as a 'hero'.The real heroes were the soldiers who fought against NATO bombers,the pilots,conscripts who tried to protect their city,or medical workers who helped wounded men on all sides,not the commanders or war criminals.

[duchetina]

It is also dissapointing to see Western media in general 'celebrating' this,when they (Western leaders) are the ones who caused much of the chaos and horror..

Its also dissapointing to see a lot of people support Mladic,as a 'hero'.The real heroes were the soldiers who fought against NATO bombers,the pilots,conscripts who tried to protect their city,or medical workers who helped wounded men on all sides,not the commanders or war criminals.ComradeErich why NATO is bombing Serbia?

[Omsk]

? You mean,why NATO bombed Serbia.

NATO bombed Serbia because of the government.The civilians didn't deserve to die.

[Tommy4ever]

ComradeErich why NATO is bombing Serbia?

NATO bombed Serbia to try to force the government to withdraw from Kosovo where yet another tragedy of the Balkan Wars was unfolding.

[Spartacus.]

NATO bombed Serbia to try to force the government to withdraw from Kosovo where yet another tragedy of the Balkan Wars was unfolding.

Just to make myself clear; I'm in no way or form supportive of Milosevic, his reign and his regime that is filled with crimes and innocent civilian blood, but do you seriosly believe that NATO was butchering thousands of harmless woman and children in order to "protect" civilians on Kosovo? Not to mention the fact that after NATO established control over Kosovo, they allowed KLA to kill and expel from their homes thousands of Roma people, Serbs and Albanians who disagreed with their politics. Why NATO hasn't bombed the KLA troops when they were unfolding yet another tragedy of Balkan Wars? :rolleyes:
Don't be so naive my friend, the only real reason NATO and US got interested in Kosovo was because it had great geo-strategic position in the center of the Balkans, able to house the biggest US base in Europe, thus strenghtening American influence in that region and because it has extensive mineral wealth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trep%C4%8Da_Mines

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/jun2002/trep-j28.shtml


Miraculously, during 37,000 sorties by NATO bombers Trepca remained untouched, whereas other branches of industry were destroyed with deadly precision.

Quite interesting, isn't it? :rolleyes: Btw; at the same time as US bombed Yugoslavia, there were genocides in action in Turkey and East Timor, commited by US allies, and with US weapons and guess what, there was no "humanitarian" intervention... :rolleyes:

Back on the topic. It is good that they have captured Mladic. Let us hope that all other war criminals, no matter if they are Montenegrians, Serbs, Croatians, Bosnians or Albanians will be captured and tried for their crimes. We need to get over the dark ages of the 90's.

[Tommy4ever]

You don't seem to understand the concept that Western politicians often have to yield to public opinion. Public opinion didn't care about East Timor or Turkey - it did about Kosovo.

Its not all one big conspiracy to conquer the entire world. These decisions often come as reactions to the moment and to the public mood.

Obviously, there were other considerations. But the idea of Western politicians (like Tony Blair) that they were off to 'save the world' was a real factor.

[CitizenSmith]

Shoot the fucker. I've read several of the forensic archaeology reports from sebrenica, the things they did there are just inhuman.

[Spartacus.]

You don't seem to understand the concept that Western politicians often have to yield to public opinion. Public opinion didn't care about East Timor or Turkey - it did about Kosovo.

Its not all one big conspiracy to conquer the entire world. These decisions often come as reactions to the moment and to the public mood.

Obviously, there were other considerations. But the idea of Western politicians (like Tony Blair) that they were off to 'save the world' was a real factor.


Sorry to be rude, but how old are you? :rolleyes: The western "democrats" don't give a shit about public "opinion". If they cared, don't you think they would have withdrawn troops from Afghanistan considering the fact that the majority of people are against prolongation of that war? So much for them being "servants" of the people's will. :rolleyes: Learn to think with your own head and don't accept everything you heard uncritically...

As to the "support" of US public for war on Yugoslavia, Iraq and Afghanistan, there is a thing called propaganda and "war-mongering" which is utilised by governments in order to raise the popularity of war, and was used all the way back from Nazi Germany to today's US "democracy" promotion to enhance the appeal of imperialism among the masses. Per instance, thanks to the intense brain-washing and whipping up of the nationalist hysteria before WWI, people were happily cheering the beggining of slaughter that would cause 20 million deaths. Not to mention the fact that Hitler's wars were very popular in the beggining, which would probably make him in your eyes a good ol' democrat who was just following public opinion which wanted genocidal wars for no good reason. :rolleyes:

I wormly recommend reading Noam Chomsky's book Manufacturing Consent, for better understanding of why US public didn't even heard about existence of East Timor, but they had "known" everything about the "need" to "save" Kosovo and to bring freedom and democracy to those poor Trepca mines. Necessary Ilusions would also constitute a good reading. :)

[Tommy4ever]

I didn't say that public opinion was the only factor, or the most important factor, I just said it was a factor.

The state doesn't have some sort of conspiratorial control over the media. :rolleyes:

The bourgeiosie as a class on the other hand ....

[MaximMK]

NATO was created to fight the Warsaw pact. They just want to build bases all over the world so they can control it. They don't really care about the people. Who are they to interfere in foreigner politics? Who gave them right ti "liberate" other countries? I bet after the war in Libya is over they will want the new government to allow them to build bases there. That is all they want.

[CitizenSmith]

NATO was created to fight the Warsaw pact. They just want to build bases all over the world so they can control it. They don't really care about the people. Who are they to interfere in foreigner politics? Who gave them right ti "liberate" other countries? I bet after the war in Libya is over they will want the new government to allow them to build bases there. That is all they want.

It's called Geo-politics, which all nation-states take part in, it's silly to consider some nation-states 'good' and others 'bad' when all nation-states are competing sets of bourgeois, remeber, the workers have no nationality.

[Sir Comradical]

Yeah but all sides committed crimes. The Bosnian Army led by the ex-Nazi Izetbegovic sought to create an ethnically pure Muslim/Croat state after their secession from Yugoslavia. They basically started the war and the Serbs responded in kind, by fighting back just as brutally. However the reason Serbia was targeted by NATO is because they refused to carry out the reforms demanded of them while the then new right-wing governments of Croatia and the Bosnia were all too happy to open up their economies for capitalist plunder.

[Thirsty Crow]

Yeah but all sides committed crimes. The Bosnian Army led by the ex-Nazi Izetbegovic sought to create an ethnically pure Muslim/Croat state after their secession from Yugoslavia. They basically started the war and the Serbs responded in kind, by fighting back just as brutally. However the reason Serbia was targeted by NATO is because they refused to carry out the reforms demanded of them while the then new right-wing governments of Croatia and the Bosnia were all too happy to open up their economies for capitalist plunder.
Do you have any evidence whatsoever to support the claims you make (especially the one striking claim that only one side was soleley responsible for starting the war)?
Or are you just another deluded "anti-imperialist" who thinks that Milosevic was another good "anti-imperialist", and maybe even a brave socialist who struggled to preserve "socialist" Yugoslavia?

[Sir Comradical]

Do you have any evidence whatsoever to support the claims you make (especially the one striking claim that only one side was soleley responsible for starting the war)?
Or are you just another deluded "anti-imperialist" who thinks that Milosevic was another good "anti-imperialist", and maybe even a brave socialist who struggled to preserve "socialist" Yugoslavia?

No. Bosnia seceded from Yugoslavia and in response, the Bosnian Serbs created an Army to secede from Bosnia.

[PhoenixAsh]

Verhagen Twittering that this is a proud day fo The Netherlands that he is comming to The Hague and that its a a good day for the victims of Srebrenica. Proud and Srebrenica in one Twitter message. This guy is a fucking wanker.

[punisa]

As a witness to this horrible war, I'm sad that its unfortunately still the main topic in Balkans - over 20 years since it started.
Without dwelling into ideologies I can conclude just one thing - they were all monsters: Croats, Serbs, Muslims etc.
From normal family men the war created bloodthirsty beasts over night. The stories I witnessed are far beyond any horror movie you could imagine.
I admit it, it had influence the way I perceive human nature tremendously.

The butchery had nothing to do with capitalism or socialism, it was just sheer madness.

[Sir Comradical]

As a witness to this horrible war, I'm sad that its unfortunately still the main topic in Balkans - over 20 years since it started.
Without dwelling into ideologies I can conclude just one thing - they were all monsters: Croats, Serbs, Muslims etc.
From normal family men the war created bloodthirsty beasts over night. The stories I witnessed are far beyond any horror movie you could imagine.
I admit it, it had influence the way I perceive human nature tremendously.

The butchery had nothing to do with capitalism or socialism, it was just sheer madness.

Do you think Mladic should be sent to face trial in a NATO court that was placed opportunistically in the Hague to make it look legit? Isn't that where they want to put him on trial?

VxdhZ454KUY

[MarxSchmarx]

From normal family men the war created bloodthirsty beasts over night. The stories I witnessed are far beyond any horror movie you could imagine.
I admit it, it had influence the way I perceive human nature tremendously.

The butchery had nothing to do with capitalism or socialism, it was just sheer madness.

Admittedly I've never had to live personally through such insanity, though several close friends and family members have told to me their experiences of the very situation you describe - regular people that are stripped of what can only be described as the "veneer of civilization".

But I have come to the conclusion that basically it has everything to do with capitalism, or at least the capitalist mindset that the world is a vicious place in which only the fittest survive. For in capitalism, your neighbour is by default your enemy - a potential competitor in the labour market, if you are a shopkeeper your competitor for customers, what have you.

From the world view that you are surrounded by potential enemies in a hostile environment, it is not a very long step to denouncing your neighbors and seeing even people you were once basically happy with as an enemy within that must be purged.

If instead we had a world where people were indeed their "brother's keeper", where they were united by a common sense of solidarity and understood that without each other their individual aspirations could not be realized - in short, with a cooperative, yes socialistic, material order - I cannot help but wonder if the sort of "basic savagery" would be as anachronistic an attitude as our fear of spectres or belief in spirit of the trees or the like.

[Andropov]

The butchery had nothing to do with capitalism or socialism, it was just sheer madness.
This is a primitive perspective.
All genocides, wars, ethnic cleansings, etc are products of their economic environment.
To fob it off on merely 'madness' is not only incorrect but also dangerous.
It is akin to labelling Hitler as 'evil'.
Hitler was a product of his economic context and if you merely label it as an abberation such as being 'evil' then you risk letting another Hitler rise from the same economic context that created Hitler.
The same must be said about the Balkans, fobbing off the latest war on mere 'madness' does not give us an understanding of the context which created such attrocities and thus if we do not understand the context which created that tragic scenario then it will be doomed to repeat itself.

[punisa]

This is a primitive perspective.
All genocides, wars, ethnic cleansings, etc are products of their economic environment.
To fob it off on merely 'madness' is not only incorrect but also dangerous.
It is akin to labelling Hitler as 'evil'.
Hitler was a product of his economic context and if you merely label it as an abberation such as being 'evil' then you risk letting another Hitler rise from the same economic context that created Hitler.
The same must be said about the Balkans, fobbing off the latest war on mere 'madness' does not give us an understanding of the context which created such attrocities and thus if we do not understand the context which created that tragic scenario then it will be doomed to repeat itself.

You failed to read carefully what I have written.
Capitalism is indeed 100% responsible for the war. The whole Balkan war was basically a big fight between nationalistic burgouise elites (until foreigners jumped in).

What I was talking about are single tragedies and single atrocities committed by common people.
They were not poor. They had no understanding of what capitalism nor socialism really is. They had not been in any way affected by the socio-economic elements whatsoever.
But still - once they figured that it's perfectly justifiable and OK to go to your next door neighbor and kill her and her child just because they were Serbs - they did.
These night raids in some cities that happened at the very beginning of the war in Croatia were - once again - just madness.
These men who just yesterday worked at the farm, at the local grocery store or have been fishermen, have organized quickly and just started killing.
I remember that in those days the ammunition was very scarce so they killed people by hand.

So to clarify myself once more - I do not claim that the wars are fought cause' people are "mad". But I do point out how war affects people. For things I have witnessed I have no other expression to use but "sheer madness".

In broader context I imply that all sides participating in the Balkan wars used horrible tactics and each time one participant tries to portray themselves as victim - its a lie (and they all claim it).

[Bandito]

The only sad thing about this arrest is the fact that bourgeois tribunal in Hague will determine his faith, instead of the people's court in Srebrenica.

[pranabjyoti]

The only sad thing about this arrest is the fact that bourgeois tribunal in Hague will determine his faith, instead of the people's court in Srebrenica.
Does that really make any difference? The "people", are still divided into ethnic groups and their mentality is badly infected and poisoned by ethnic hate.
So far, with my little understanding of the situation, I can say that all groups (Croats, Serbs, Bosnians) had committed atrocities in the conflict. So, why only attacking the Serbians? A real tribunal would be determining the fates of all the war criminals from every ethnic group.
The fallacy is while a war criminal from one ethnic groups is under tribunal in Hague while another war criminal is head of the state of Kosovo.

[Thirsty Crow]

Does that really make any difference? The "people", are still divided into ethnic groups and their mentality is badly infected and poisoned by ethnic hate.
So far, with my little understanding of the situation, I can say that all groups (Croats, Serbs, Bosnians) had committed atrocities in the conflict. So, why only attacking the Serbians? A real tribunal would be determining the fates of all the war criminals from every ethnic group.
The fallacy is while a war criminal from one ethnic groups is under tribunal in Hague while another war criminal is head of the state of Kosovo.
See, your conclusion justifies the fact that you know very little about the conflict itself.
Kosovo, and its ruling regime, has nothing to do with the specific conflict in Bosnia and Croatia (you correctly identified the ethnic groups involved).
If we're talking about that conflict, we'd have to acknowledge that both Croat and Serbian members of the armed forces have been not only indicted for war crimes, but also sentenced. Two months ago, general Gotovina was sentenced for 25 years in prison for "joint criminal endeavour" (I'm not familiar with the exact phraseology of the Hague Tribunal). If the first president of Croatia were still alive, he could be awaiting the sentence as well.

Another thing is that other war criminals, from both sides, were not prosecuted and will never be.

Now, if you wish to debate the "Western" hypocrisy in the form of supporting an alleged war criminal, the head of the state of Kosovo, then by all means do, but this is only tangential to the issue at hand.

[Bandito]

Does that really make any difference? The "people", are still divided into ethnic groups and their mentality is badly infected and poisoned by ethnic hate.
So far, with my little understanding of the situation, I can say that all groups (Croats, Serbs, Bosnians) had committed atrocities in the conflict. So, why only attacking the Serbians? A real tribunal would be determining the fates of all the war criminals from every ethnic group.
The fallacy is while a war criminal from one ethnic groups is under tribunal in Hague while another war criminal is head of the state of Kosovo.

No worries about little knowledge of the situation.

No, the Serbs aren't the only nation that is under investigation about war crimes. Croatian and Bosnian war chiefs also faced arrests, investigations, processes and, eventually, sentences.

The only problem that leftists have is the very nature of the Hague Tribunal, which was formed by and for the needs of the bourgeois. Which doesn't mean that likes of Milosevic, Mladic, Gotovina, Karadzic or Seselj do not deserve penalties for what they did. If there were any justice, all of them would be hanged by their balls on the city centers. Sentenced by their own people.

[Omsk]

Sentenced by their own people.
Croatians would hardly hang Gotovina.Same thing goes for Seselj,or Hadzic.

[punisa]

If there were any justice, all of them would be hanged by their balls on the city centers. Sentenced by their own people.
This is hardcore utopia. Over 50% of people view these criminals as heroes in their home countries.

[Bandito]

This is hardcore utopia. Over 50% of people view these criminals as heroes in their home countries.

Well, in our case, justice now seems like an utopia, for sure. That's the result of the media propaganda from over 20 years.

What is important now is to adjust criticism about those people and those actions now, no matter how it is received by the majority of the people.

[Great1917Revolution]

its disgusting how almost all dutch media seize upon this to try and wash again the blood of the hands of the dutch government/military command

Agreed! Henk Kamp even decorated Thom Karremans, Rob Franken and others who cowardly withdrew and helped VRS carry out the massacre. Until they stripped of these decorations and brought to court The Netherlands shall be held responsible, at least partially, of the genocide.

By the way, great news!

[Andropov]

You failed to read carefully what I have written.
Capitalism is indeed 100% responsible for the war. The whole Balkan war was basically a big fight between nationalistic burgouise elites (until foreigners jumped in).
Maybe you can understand where I came to that conclusion when you wrote this....

The butchery had nothing to do with capitalism or socialism, it was just sheer madness.

What I was talking about are single tragedies and single atrocities committed by common people.
They were not poor. They had no understanding of what capitalism nor socialism really is. They had not been in any way affected by the socio-economic elements whatsoever.
On this I completely disagree with you.
Of course every person in this world is not just affected by their socio-economic context but they are also created by their socio-economic context.
The whole context that unfolded in the Balkans would not have gained the momentum it did if the people were not so heavily moulded by their respective socio-economic contexts.
People are not islands from their contexts.

But still - once they figured that it's perfectly justifiable and OK to go to your next door neighbor and kill her and her child just because they were Serbs - they did.
These night raids in some cities that happened at the very beginning of the war in Croatia were - once again - just madness.
These men who just yesterday worked at the farm, at the local grocery store or have been fishermen, have organized quickly and just started killing.
I remember that in those days the ammunition was very scarce so they killed people by hand.
No it wasnt madness.
A mass outbreak of some form of psychological illness did not occur spontaneously in the Balkans at the same time.
These attrocities were rational products of their context and just as the people who committed said attrocities were products of this context.
To fob it off the actions of these people on 'madness' is innacurate, these actions were just more examples of how the socio-economic context can mould, encourage and create certain behaviour and certain actions.

So to clarify myself once more - I do not claim that the wars are fought cause' people are "mad". But I do point out how war affects people. For things I have witnessed I have no other expression to use but "sheer madness".
The horrors that were committed were brutal but like I said using terminology like 'madness' is akin to the Bourgeois media using such terms as 'evil' etc. It doesnt get at the logical cause of these events. Madness is just a psychological disorder and these actions were not created by a spontaneous psychological disorder.

In broader context I imply that all sides participating in the Balkan wars used horrible tactics and each time one participant tries to portray themselves as victim - its a lie (and they all claim it).
I never debated this point either way.

[W1N5T0N]

mladic is a fascist pig. I hope he gets the harshest punishment possible for his crimes and the atrocities which were carried out in his name. Apparently, he hid under a fake name which was an anagram for "I am Ratko Mladic" in serbian. May he rot in a tiny cell until he decides to release himself from his pitiful existence...

@spartacus: very good book, should be made mandatory literature in every school. It gives a very refreshing view of contemporary international politics :) fuck the propaganda!

[Bandito]

mladic is a fascist pig. I hope he gets the harshest punishment possible for his crimes and the atrocities which were carried out in his name. Apparently, he hid under a fake name which was an anagram for "I am Ratko Mladic" in serbian. May he rot in a tiny cell until he decides to release himself from his pitiful existence...

:)

Not true, he had documents issued on the name Ratko Mladic. Plain and simple.

The second part of your post is what I agree with.

[Das war einmal]

its disgusting how almost all dutch media seize upon this to try and wash again the blood of the hands of the dutch government/military command

What do you mean?

[Spartacus.]

What do you mean?


The Dutch troops allowed Serbian troops to butcher the innocent civilians, although they know that there was going to be a massacre and that they had the obligation to protect people of Srebrenica...

Not the first time that such things happen, though. Genocide in Rwanda could have been prevented, or at least minimised, if there was enough willpower to actually do something...

But I suppose oil-rich countries like Iraq or Lybia are much more appealing for "humanitarian" interventions than god-knows-where countries like Rwanda, East Timor, Sri Lanka, Kurdistan and etc. :rolleyes:

[Hiero]

Do you have any evidence whatsoever to support the claims you make (especially the one striking claim that only one side was soleley responsible for starting the war)?
Or are you just another deluded "anti-imperialist" who thinks that Milosevic was another good "anti-imperialist", and maybe even a brave socialist who struggled to preserve "socialist" Yugoslavia?

Noam Chomsky and Michael Parenti would be good places to start for sources. They have written a bit about how Serbia was constantly presured to accept economic reforms that laid out privatisation of nationalised industries and economic policies that would open the country up to the world market. These were reforms that other former Yugoslav countries accepted, hence the reason the KLA was not bombed to shit.

[duchetina]

? You mean,why NATO bombed Serbia.

NATO bombed Serbia because of the government.The civilians didn't deserve to die.but NATO also bombed serbian army 1995,why?

[duchetina]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84_LdFAA3c0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJz6MCUQD58&feature=related

i think is becouse of this

[Thirsty Crow]

Noam Chomsky and Michael Parenti would be good places to start for sources. They have written a bit about how Serbia was constantly presured to accept economic reforms that laid out privatisation of nationalised industries and economic policies that would open the country up to the world market. These were reforms that other former Yugoslav countries accepted, hence the reason the KLA was not bombed to shit.
You misunderstood, apparently, what I said.
I asked for solid evidence in relation to the hypothesis that only one (or two, to be more precise) side involved in the war in Croatia and Bosnia was solely responsible for its outbreak.
I suppose that this hypothesis would be defended by proponents of a kind kind of an "anti-imperialist" perspective, totally oblivious to the fact that Yugoslav development at least from 1965 enabled the formation of regional little imperialisms.

I clearly stated that the issue of Kosovo is onlyindirectly linked to the topic at hand.

[Threetune]

Print some of this off and the next time some naïve or reactionary starts blathering on about 7-8,000 massacred in Srebrenica you can hand them some number and a web site to research.
http://www.srebrenica-report.com/numbers.htm
http://serbianna.com/analysis/archives/876