What to do with serious, violent criminals.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

I was watching a Louie Theroux documentary today, whilst being a lazy bastard and not going to a lecture, and it got me thinking.

It looked at a very overcrowded prison in Miami, which was actually a very old system, and the amount of violence between prisoners was astounding. You could have 25 men to a cell, and they run on some kind of code that uses violence to establish to establish hierarchical order in the cell, that leads to weaker men facing serious abuse and all kinds of acts of violence, including stabbing which is commonplace. I am sure that this kind of prison order is common knowledge, I am merely pointing it out as an example behind my question.

Also noteworthy is the fact that many of the criminals there were re-offenders, that have pathologically resorted to violent attacks against the public and even family members for economic means and in other instances, for no clear reason.

I understand that these people are victims of a broken social and economic order, and with that in mind, I sympathize with them and naturally do not see it as a black and white, good and evil issue. What I do not understand, is how we are to deal with these people in a revolutionary situation. Hypothetically, we are organizing a new social order, with the aim of establishing communism - the question is, what do we do with those who are institutionalized criminals, that have been conditioned to think that violence against others is a means to their end? Do we expect them to function in a society based on mutual aid properly, bearing in mind that these people do not understand the concept of personal liberty? Or do we keep them isolated from society? Can they be educated? I also see the prison system as an inherently broken system, but what do we do with those who have spent so much time in it, living by its 'code' and practically being conditioned in these crime universities? Are they other ways to rehabilitate these broken people? I definitely do not agree with the prison system and see it as doing more harm than good, but the fact is that our most violent members of society are dealt with in this way, with all of the negativity this creates, so we have to understand that and address it.

I'd like to hear proposals and perspectives from the left. I am completely torn on the issue. I believe in the principle of liberty, but one's liberty ends where another person's begins, therefore the question of those who see interpersonal and social violence as a way of life and what to do with them in a transition to communism is something I truly don't get.

We know what to do with those who control the mode of production as is stands, what do we do with those products of the system that have practically been conditioned into being violent sociopaths? We aim to fix the socio-economic problems that lead to these kind of people being who they are, but I don't understand how to deal with the ones that exist. Surely we don't just let them out and hope that they can adjust to a new society.

I'd like to point out too that I am not generalizing prisoners here, I know that many are not violent and a very high amount aren't criminals at all in our eyes. I am talking about really violent individuals, sociopaths and I guess they would largely fall into the lumpen category if we are talking class. I want to see a world without people who rape and murder other people, and I think our ideologies and proposals are a way to do this, however, I am not well versed on this question.

Please, enlighten and inspire me.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

There will always be people with sociopath or psychopath tendencies. Adding to these are many other psychological conditions that could reduce empathy or contribute to people committing violent crimes. And there will always be people who commit violent crime in a rage or another emotionally unstable state. These kinds of people do need to get locked up once they commit their crimes.

But IMO a socialist society should use methods of psychology and pedagogy to try to find people with personality disorders early and help them the best it can before they become a problem. Ultimately, people's psyche is the development and synthesis of their conditions over their life, and these conditions can be altered. Crime prevention should be the focus of society, not crime punishment.

To sum up-where violent criminals exist, do punish them, but do everything in your power to prevent people from developing into violent criminals to begin with.

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

I agree with that fully, and I would hope that a communist society would focus on socializing people into being fantastic human beings. But what about the remnants of this system? What do we do with that huge population of violent lunatics? Is there a point where a person has been socialized too far into the role of violent criminal, where he cannot be reeducated and rehabilitated? If yes, what do we do? Transfer these people into some other kind of institution that is more humane?

If we are going to do away with prisons, we have to do away with the conditions that justify the existence of them, that we can establish as a given. But its the problem of those who are a product of that system and what to do with them in a revolutionary society without keeping that old system alive that is a vicious cycle.

[caramelpence]

what do we do with those who are institutionalized criminals

I presume you're talking about people who have been locked in prison for long periods of time under capitalist society and the issue of what a socialist society would do, having inherited many of the problems of capitalist society - I specify this only to make sure that you're not talking about people who would be institutionalized under socialism and that we both agree that socialism would not embody degrading institutions like prisons, and would probably have an entirely different understanding of deviance altogether. I watched the same program and to be honest I'm not surprised that the jail (it was a holding location for prisoners who had yet to go for trial if I understood correctly) was such a site of violence. If you have a large group of young men confined in a space with tiny bunk-beds literally pushed up against each other and the walls of the cell, and no visible entertainment or recreation other than television screens that are on the other side of the bars and the occasional opportunity to exercise in the yard, all of this taking place in a society with sharp racial divisions and tensions, then why would anyone expect an environment like that to produce autonomous and reflective individuals who can relate to each other in respectful and human ways?

I'm confident that a socialist society would find ways to integrate those sorts of individuals by offering them a meaningful existence. The experience of revolution, which would surely involve the destruction of institutions like prisons as part of broader processes of political transformation, is itself a radical moralizing force that changes human relationships, as you can see from past revolutionary events, even those that only existed for a short period of time. In general, I don't see it as necessary to make plans about how we might deal with ex-prisoners or any other inherited problems (e.g. who would clean the floors) because I'm confident that the human beings who inhabit a socialist society and who no longer relate to their activity or to each other in alienated ways would be sufficiently imaginative to come up with effective and liberating solutions.

[hatzel]

Transfer these people into some other kind of institution that is more humane?

One could presumably do this. I'm not exactly an expert on criminal psychology, and don't know if some can't be 'salvaged', if you want to put it that way, but I can only assume it would be possible to have some kind of transition system. Those prisoners who aren't deemed to pose a risk to society may be freed more immediately, those who are not could perhaps be transferred from imprisonment to rehabilitation. I can't be certain about it, but I would hope that many of these people could be rehabilitated if the institution at hand were specifically geared towards it. Those who are then sufficiently rehabilitated to no longer pose a threat to society, according to a panel of criminal psychologists, could then be freed.

Of course somebody knowledgeable in criminal psychology might be able to give more insight there, I might be talking booty chowder...

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

I presume you're talking about people who have been locked in prison for long periods of time under capitalist society and the issue of what a socialist society would do, having inherited many of the problems of capitalist society - I specify this only to make sure that you're not talking about people who would be institutionalized under socialism and that we both agree that socialism would not embody degrading institutions like prisons, and would probably have an entirely different understanding of deviance altogether. I watched the same program and to be honest I'm not surprised that the jail (it was a holding location for prisoners who had yet to go for trial if I understood correctly) was such a site of violence. If you have a large group of young men confined in a space with tiny bunk-beds literally pushed up against each other and the walls of the cell, and no visible entertainment or recreation other than television screens that are on the other side of the bars and the occasional opportunity to exercise in the yard, all of this taking place in a society with sharp racial divisions and tensions, then why would anyone expect an environment like that to produce autonomous and reflective individuals who can relate to each other in respectful and human ways?

I'm confident that a socialist society would find ways to integrate those sorts of individuals by offering them a meaningful existence. The experience of revolution, which would surely involve the destruction of institutions like prisons as part of broader processes of political transformation, is itself a radical moralizing force that changes human relationships, as you can see from past revolutionary events, even those that only existed for a short period of time. In general, I don't see it as necessary to make plans about how we might deal with ex-prisoners or any other inherited problems (e.g. who would clean the floors) because I'm confident that the human beings who inhabit a socialist society and who no longer relate to their activity or to each other in alienated ways would be sufficiently imaginative to come up with effective and liberating solutions.
I agree with the general points in the post, and ideally and morally with the latter part, however I am skeptical of the notion that these people would naturally lose their old ways under the transformation of society. This is ideal, but are we underestimating the level of alienation of these people and the deep rooted problems they face as a result of their treatment in the system? Is our understanding of the breadth of this problem comprehensive enough to make such a judgement? Or do these individuals need other attention?

Should we not consider some kind of educational process with the aim of either rehabilitating them, or failing that, keeping them isolated from society but with the greatest amount of liberty we can give them without the risk of them hurting other people? Many of us have elaborate and well thought out economic solutions, and other social solutions for the inherent problems in capitalism, but it looks like the problem with violent criminals is not one that has undergone as much thought as it could have been, and a lot of our conclusions seem to be based on idealist principles rather than concrete study.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Would you recommend the documentary? Wondering if I should watch it on Iplayer or not. Maybe I'll respond to the topic after watching

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

Would you recommend the documentary? Wondering if I should watch it on Iplayer or not. Maybe I'll respond to the topic after watching
I would recommend it to someone who wanted to get some insight into the prison system. Its a series and the following episodes look at other areas of the 'criminal justice system'. I wouldn't say it told me anything I didn't already know, but sometimes its helpful to see things for yourself.

[SacRedMan]

Ancient Greece had a system called: ostracism. People that behave not well or wich people are sick of will be banned out of society. They vote for who should be banned out of society.

[Commissar Rykov]

Ancient Greece had a system called: ostracism. People that behave not well or wich people are sick of will be banned out of society. They vote for who should be banned out of society.

Most violent criminals are already ostracized from society and usually live on the fringes anyways so I don't see how that could fix anything. Most violent criminals could likely be rehabilitated but it is hard to say the reality is prevention will be much easier in a Socialist and Communist society. There will always deviants though that can't be fixed though due to some reason maybe we can figure it out with further study but the reality is there are people in society who enjoy torturing, murdering and raping their fellow citizens.

[the_red_pickle]

How come nobody has mentioned labor camps? This would be a better option then having 25 men locked up in a cell with nothing to do. Locking up adults in tiny cells where they can hardly move let alone express themselves, create something, is going to leave them in a constant state of anxiety. It will make them whine and cry like irritated helpless infants, except that these are not infants but sociopathic criminals. That kind of environment will degenerate them even more. Why not "work them to death", make them feel tired by the end of the day everyday, work their asses off as much as you can.

[Johnny Kerosene]

How come nobody has mentioned labor camps? This would be a better option then having 25 men locked up in a cell with nothing to do. Locking up adults in tiny cells where they can hardly move let alone express themselves, create something, is going to leave them in a constant state of anxiety. It will make them whine and cry like irritated helpless infants, except that these are not infants but sociopathic criminals. That kind of environment will degenerate them even more. Why not "work them to death", make them feel tired by the end of the day everyday, work their asses off as much as you can.

No. Maybe some kind of involuntary labor program, but certainly not one that overworks them.

[the_red_pickle]

No. Maybe some kind of involuntary labor program, but certainly not one that overworks them.

Uh yes. The more severe their crime, the more work they should be given. They shouldn't necessarily have to do it for the rest of their life or the rest of the time they are there but certainly punishment must still be handed out, hence overwork them. How else can you make it be a punishment for the criminal that does manual labor for a living? It wouldn't really be punishment for them since they are used to that kind of life. When one have committed crimes such as serial raping and murdering, do you think it's fair to just let them clean a toilet once a day? :rolleyes:

[Commissar Rykov]

Uh yes. The more severe their crime, the more work they should be given. They shouldn't necessarily have to do it for the rest of their life or the rest of the time they are there but certainly punishment must still be handed out, hence overwork them. How else can you make it be a punishment for the criminal that does manual labor for a living? It wouldn't really be punishment for them since they are used to that kind of life. When one have committed crimes such as serial raping and murdering, do you think it's fair to just let them clean a toilet once a day? :rolleyes:

Labor Camps is one thing what you are suggesting makes one no better than the criminals. I see no problem in having violent prisoners do something useful for society but it is entirely something else to be purposefully vindictive.

[hatzel]

How come nobody has mentioned labor camps?

To be honest, I think it's pretty obvious why nobody's mentioned labour camps...

[Lord Testicles]

C4beUC3-ckw

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

C4beUC3-ckw

That was interesting to watch. Its a world apart from what I've seen of American and British prisons.

I'd like to know the reoffender rate in relation to American and British prisoners.

[Marxach-Léinínach]

What to do with serious, violent criminals
Hard labour. Least they're contributing something to society that way

[Savage]

Hard labour. Least they're contributing something to society that way

what better way to advance the struggle of the proletariat than to perpetuate their existence as a class.

[hatzel]

what better way to advance the struggle of the proletariat than to perpetuate their existence as a class.

No no, you misunderstand, they won't last long (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extermination_by_labor)...

Seriously, you guys advocating slave labour for criminals better get with the times before you start calling for this shit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hung,_drawn_and_quartered) to be brought back...

[Rousedruminations]

I wouldn't recommend capital punishment, either be incarcerated for life or let it be hard labour before that i think violent criminals ( serial killers ) should have some several serious attempts of rehabilitation.

[Lord Testicles]

That was interesting to watch. Its a world apart from what I've seen of American and British prisons.

I'd like to know the reoffender rate in relation to American and British prisoners.

I have no idea what the recidivism rates are in Norway, according to wikipedia the recidivism rates for released prisoners in the USA and the UK are 60% and 50% respectively. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recidivism#Recidivism_rates) I don't think that the recidivism rates for Norway would matter that much because I don't know how many prisons like that exist there, that might be the sole example of prisons operating in that way.
I just think that treating people like people is a good place to start.

[Sir Comradical]

Under socialism? They should be put to work because under socialism, everyone has an obligation to work and they should be paid. Their living conditions should be reasonable and they should have access to a library.

[Jose Gracchus]

I do think some kind of social labor should be part of punishment, since everyone will have to have some obligation to socially necessary labor, rather than it being the responsibility by default of the working class. That said, the labor should be to some degree controlled by the laborers, and they should be compensated appropriately, even if their liberties are temporarily and conditionally restrained.

[Die Neue Zeit]

No no, you misunderstand, they won't last long (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extermination_by_labor)...

Seriously, you guys advocating slave labour for criminals better get with the times before you start calling for this shit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hung,_drawn_and_quartered) to be brought back...

You're too obsessed with Nazi death camps. You need to broaden your knowledge of the GULAG system which included even the industrial city of Magnitogorsk. ;)

When he first posted, I must admit he came across the same way I came across when I first addressed the topic. His second post, however, does have a point re. the severity of the crime:

Prisons, community service, crime-and-punishment controversy, and more (http://www.revleft.com/vb/prisons-community-service-t150308/index.html)

The poster who suggested involuntary labour but no over-work in this thread was suggesting something similar to community service. I believe each of the various forms of corrective labour has its place, from the soft and compensated to the hard, depending on the offense committed or the economic obligation owed (http://www.revleft.com/vb/corvee-labour-socialists-t150993/index.html?p=2045561), with due consideration of utility in the form of deterrence.



As for the answer to the thread title per se, since the OP is referring only to class enemies, serious counter-revolutionaries, serial murderers and other capital offenders, grossly corrupt officials, serial rapists, etc. which in proportion to the global population can have sufficient numbers: GULAG.

For now, however, we all must campaign for the abolition of prison labour for the benefit of private parties.

[hatzel]

When he first posted, I must admit he came across the same way I came across when I first addressed the topic. His second post, however, does have a point re. the severity of the crime

Despite whether or not he has a point in that, I think he's shooting wide of the mark when he's coming out with stuff like:


That kind of environment will degenerate them even more.

...and:


Why not "work them to death"N.B. I realise that last one wasn't necessarily meant to be taken literally...

From what I know of prisons and the like, any set-up which is intended to 'degenerate' the individual isn't worth trying, and is destined to eventual failure. Whilst I know that in prisons today they like violent prisoners to go to the gym and work out all day, so that they're tired out and won't release their energy on each other (so that bit of his post was sensible and accurate), I don't see why that has to be realised by trying to degenerate or degrade or humiliate or break the individual with hard labour or any other means. That strikes me as the complete opposite of what would be the sensible thing to do...it strikes me as a bit outdated, to be honest...

[the_red_pickle]

Despite whether or not he has a point in that, I think he's shooting wide of the mark when he's coming out with stuff like:



...and:

N.B. I realise that last one wasn't necessarily meant to be taken literally...

From what I know of prisons and the like, any set-up which is intended to 'degenerate' the individual isn't worth trying, and is destined to eventual failure. Whilst I know that in prisons today they like violent prisoners to go to the gym and work out all day, so that they're tired out and won't release their energy on each other (so that bit of his post was sensible and accurate), I don't see why that has to be realised by trying to degenerate or degrade or humiliate or break the individual with hard labour or any other means. That strikes me as the complete opposite of what would be the sensible thing to do...it strikes me as a bit outdated, to be honest...

Well first of all I was not alluding to nazi death camps so I do apologize about that. I know how jews have a sensitivity about this topic. 2ndly, I did just mean labor camps as in where people are expected to do hard labor. For capitalists and bourgeois alike, this is such a harsh punishment, maybe worst than the prison system but we are leftists after all and we should not discount the fact of how effective Gulags can be. FYI, we needn't make them as nearly severe as their predecessors and of course there must be regulations to make sure they are treated humanely. The environment should make you able, that you're able to create things with your bare hands and you're being productive.


edit: I'm not opposed to the experience being a therapeutic one. In fact there should be individual and group therapies and activities like dance and entertainment programs for prisoners where they could participate in and work as a group. I'm sure some of you are familiar with Cebu Provincial Detention in the Philippines performing MJ'S "thriller", during the months they were rehearsing that number, the inmate on inmate crime dropped significantly. It's crucial that there's always something to look forward to while they are there. Just like they would be out in the real world.