A few questions

[Jim Nasium]

Hi,

I looking to learn about socialism after getting disillusioned with the Libertarian philosophy I have been following for some time.

I don't want to debate or anything like, I just want to learn, hopefully some of you can help.

I realise there are many different ideas about how socialism would work in practice (assuming the USSR, China, social democracies etc. are/were not socialist), but just so I can get a general idea.

So the first thing I am curious about, when most of you think of socialism do you envision state socialism? i.e. 100% state control of the means of production?

[Stranger Than Paradise]

No, the means of production should be controlled by the working class as a whole, not a state made up of a small minority. This is a necessary prerequisite on the road to Communism.

[Rooster]

Maybe under the dictatorship of the porelatriat, but there really shouldn't be a state in the first place if we've reached communism.

[CesareBorgia]

Yes, I believe that property must pass through the hands of the state before being 'socialized' and then I measure Socialism by how much that property ceases being state property i.e. 'the withering of the state'

Cheers.

[Sixiang]

If said state is run by the proletariat, then yes, I do support that state having 100% control of the means of production.

[Revolutionair]

I don't think the entire proletariat can control the state. There will always be people left out, and these will become oppressed by the people who are in control of the state.

I use the word socialism as a synonym for communism or sometimes for the mode of production that communism uses.

When I think of socialism, I think of production for use-value instead of exchange-value. I think of no state and no private property.

But we cannot know for sure what the future will hold. Some believe that it is necessary for a state to control the economy, with the majority of workers in charge. This is not because they like state-power per se, but because they predict that the revolution will be a bloody one. No class in the history of mankind has given up its privileges voluntarily, so they think it will take a state to suppress the bourgeoisie until the economic basis for the restoration of capitalism is removed.

[Jim Nasium]

I can visualise a system where the state controls the means production, although I would agree this would most likely lead to a situation like the USSR where you had a new elite class of government officials, which would defeat the object.

What is the alternative? How can the proletariat ensure that goods are being produced for use-value rather than exchange value at all times? There must be some group with the responsibility of ensuring everybody is towing the line right? Would this group not have more power than the average worker and constitute a form of state/government?

Maybe I am talking out my ass. If there are any books you can recommend which explain these basic concepts that would be useful.

[La Peur Rouge]

What is the alternative?

You'll get greatly varying answers depending on who you ask, if you're interested in doing some reading I would suggest the Marxists Internet Archive (http://www.marxists.org/). Karl Marx's and Frederick Engel's Selected Works (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/sw/index.htm) from MIA

I envision worker's councils formed in work places sending delegates (who could be instantly replaced) to a larger council to voice the decision made by their respective worker's council, and from there a final decision would be made. This is just my personal opinion.