The argument that made me facepalm

[SacRedMan]

who giving work to "proletariat"? Capitalists, smart people!

Okay, this really made me facepalm, but I can't give an argument that proves that the argument of my discussion partner fails very hard, due to lack of English grammar. So help me with this one, please!

And this thread has also another function: awnsering my question: Who gives work to the proletariat in a communist society?

(this isn't the same guy as in the former thread, about that other discussion wich made me also, and others, facepalm)

[Old Mole]

Work has not been "given" to the workers, as shown in Capital. Actually the capitalist form of production was forced on them and a lot of people preferred living as wanderers, begging and robbing, to being imprisoned in the chains of capitalism. The workers give work to the capitalists (surplus value) and in a truly communist society work as we know it will be abolished, noone will sacrifice their time for the profit of the few.

[SacRedMan]

another fantastic argument!


If communism is so good, then why it don't work nowhere? Every communist society have been class society. Party members are rich and they live as true capitalists. Simple worker is still poor slave on they'r hand. Communist don't work. They can only kill ritch people, taking they'r money and then...then they need slaves who working for nothing. Why communist China need capitalism? Because communism don't work. In Russia, Cuba, Vietnam, Korea, Gambodza, Latin-America...nowhere! Open your eyes!

[RadioRaheem84]

Spread of wealth in capitalist societies is 10,000 to 1. In the former blocs it was as low as 5 to1, to as high as a 100 to 1.

Class was a problem in the former blocs but the extravagant gaps in income were highly reduced. Of course, then you wait for the argument that Communism just made everyone poor, as if income disparity on a grand scale makes a nation look more equal?

[Thirsty Crow]

The first argument is based on an unsubstantiated assumption: that all the people who are in a position to create jobs (i.e. capitalists) are smart and, conversely, that workers are dumb. I don't think that such a ridiculous assumption needs to be even debated.

The second argument is "better", but again it operates with a faulty assumption, that an isolated nation-state may witness the creation of a communist societies confined to its borders. It cannot.

But somehow I sense that any point you make in this conversation will be discarded.

[RadioRaheem84]

Can we all agree that most pro-capitalist claims coming from people who obviously do not own capital, are based upon a really shoddy set of presuppositions?

Always challenge their assumptions. 99% of their arguments are false assumptions that they suppose are true and think that everyone else thinks they're true too; i.e. "common sense".

This is one of the major pieces of evidence out there that there is a systemic propaganda machine that has people parroting capitalist assumptions. Workers thinking like owners of industry.

As David Harvey noted, this was a planned thing from the beginning. People like Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan, said that they were going to "revolutionize" the way people think; away from thinking like workers and more like "entrepreneurs". So now a days, a lot of people talk and think as though they themselves are owners of business.

[MaximMK]

Communism cant make people poor for there is no cash in communism and all of the countries he named were SOCIALIST countries and not communist even thou people call them communist.

[Red_Struggle]

Spread of wealth in capitalist societies is 10,000 to 1. In the former blocs it was as low as 5 to1, to as high as a 100 to 1.

Not to mention that it was actually Albania who achieved the most egalitarian wages in the world, which were 2:1 and tell him to look it up. Just drop this and the argument that socialist societies are inherently unegalitarian will be destroyed.

[redhotpoker]

I dont think its right to ridicule people with qustions like this (not accusing the OP of doing this).

The best thing you can do is to site calmly and respectively and try and explain how things really are.


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[Toppler]

Can we all agree that most pro-capitalist claims coming from people who obviously do not own capital, are based upon a really shoddy set of presuppositions?

Always challenge their assumptions. 99% of their arguments are false assumptions that they suppose are true and think that everyone else thinks they're true too; i.e. "common sense".

This is one of the major pieces of evidence out there that there is a systemic propaganda machine that has people parroting capitalist assumptions. Workers thinking like owners of industry.

As David Harvey noted, this was a planned thing from the beginning. People like Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan, said that they were going to "revolutionize" the way people think; away from thinking like workers and more like "entrepreneurs". So now a days, a lot of people talk and think as though they themselves are owners of business.

Yeah.

This "equally poor" thing is bullshit. The average Bloc person had more than enough food to eat, a quite good house/apartment, TV, shower, flushing toilet, stereo etc...with the exception of Romania and Poland. And Yugoslavia had it even much better than the Bloc. The Slovenian part was richer than Austria.

And I hate this "everybody knows commie regimes mean standing in line for rations and living in a hut w/o electricity" thinking too. What would those people say if they learned that actually rationing in the USSR ended in 1946 and in 1952 in CSSR and at similiar times in other communist ruled countries? For somebody who is surrounded by older adults who all lived under a communist regime this type of Western thinking seems both stupid and alien. There were many problems and mistakes in Bloc (singular, there are no "Blocs", there was only 1 Eastern Bloc), but no, people didn't live in poverty or squalor. Not even in the fucking 1950s when West Germans were still eating oatmeal porridge and my granddad listened to the radio where hardcore Stalinist retards talked about fighting against Trotskyte-Titoite-Zionist conspirators and taught the young people the chant "We are the new youth, Gottwald's youth!" ("My sme mládež nová, mládež Gottwaldova!"). At the same time, McCarthy saw commies under the bed. Let's just say both sides had ridiculous propaganda during the Cold War, even through the Soviet one was at least not trying to say that USA was a third world country in which people live in mud.

[red cat]

Originally Posted by discussion partner
who giving work to "proletariat"? Capitalists, smart people!

Who overthrow the capitalists and create a world of peace and true prosperity? Proletarians, even smarter people ! Simple. :lol:

[Rakhmetov]

Classic cartoon by Fred Wright: `How much do you pay your boss?'


http://links.org.au/files/surplusvalue.jpg