Mahmoud Ahmadinejad revealed to have Jewish past

[freepalestine]

thought i'd post here as articles is from a rightwing newspaper

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad revealed to have Jewish past



Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's vitriolic attacks on the Jewish world hide an astonishing secret, evidence uncovered by The Daily Telegraph shows.



By Damien McElroy and Ahmad Vahdat 7:30AM BST 03 Oct 2009

A photograph of the Iranian president holding up his identity card during elections in March 2008 clearly shows his family has Jewish roots.


http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01494/ahm_1494743f.jpg

Ahmadinejad showing papers during election. It shows that his family's previous name was Jewish


A close-up of the document reveals he was previously known as Sabourjian – a Jewish name meaning cloth weaver.

The short note scrawled on the card suggests his family changed its name to Ahmadinejad when they converted to embrace Islam after his birth.

The Sabourjians traditionally hail from Aradan, Mr Ahmadinejad's birthplace, and the name derives from "weaver of the Sabour", the name for the Jewish Tallit shawl in Persia. The name is even on the list of reserved names for Iranian Jews compiled by Iran's Ministry of the Interior.

Experts last night suggested Mr Ahmadinejad's track record for hate-filled attacks on Jews could be an overcompensation to hide his past.




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Ali Nourizadeh, of the Centre for Arab
and Iranian Studies, said: "This aspect of Mr Ahmadinejad's background explains a lot about him.

"Every family that converts into a different religion takes a new identity by condemning their old faith.
"By making anti-Israeli statements he is trying to shed any suspicions about his Jewish connections. He feels vulnerable in a radical Shia society."
A London-based expert on Iranian Jewry said that "jian" ending to the name specifically showed the family had been practising Jews.

"He has changed his name for religious reasons, or at least his parents had," said the Iranian-born Jew living in London. "Sabourjian is well known Jewish name in Iran."
A spokesman for the Israeli embassy in London said it would not be drawn on Mr Ahmadinejad's background. "It's not something we'd talk about," said Ron Gidor, a spokesman.
The Iranian leader has not denied his name was changed when his family moved to Tehran in the 1950s. But he has never revealed what it was changed from or directly addressed the reason for the switch.

Relatives have previously said a mixture of religious reasons and economic pressures forced his blacksmith father Ahmad to change when Mr Ahmadinejad was aged four.
The Iranian president grew up to be a qualified engineer with a doctorate in traffic management. He served in the Revolutionary Guards militia before going on to make his name in hardline politics in the capital.
During this year's presidential debate on television he was goaded to admit that his name had changed but he ignored the jibe.

However Mehdi Khazali, an internet blogger, who called for an investigation of Mr Ahmadinejad's roots was arrested this summer.
Mr Ahmadinejad has regularly levelled bitter criticism at Israel, questioned its right to exist and denied the Holocaust. British diplomats walked out of a UN meeting last month after the Iranian president denounced Israel's 'genocide, barbarism and racism.'

Benjamin Netanyahu made an impassioned denunciation of the Iranian leader at the same UN summit. "Yesterday, the man who calls the Holocaust a lie spoke from this podium," he said. "A mere six decades after the Holocaust, you give legitimacy to a man who denies the murder of six million Jews while promising to wipe out the State of Israel, the State of the Jews. What a disgrace. What a mockery of the charter of the United Nations."

Mr Ahmadinejad has been consistently outspoken about the Nazi attempt to wipe out the Jewish race. "They have created a myth today that they call the massacre of Jews and they consider it a principle above God, religions and the prophets," he declared at a conference on the holocaust staged in Tehran in 2006.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/6256173/Mahmoud-Ahmadinejad-revealed-to-have-Jewish-past.html?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4dd5f8ebb5ce8eae%2C0

[Sir Comradical]

Self hating jew, lol.

[dernier combat]

I don't know what the fuck I am reading.

[Tommy4ever]

lol

[danyboy27]

I don't know what the fuck I am reading.

well according to a lebanese guy i talked with long time ago, Farsi is for arab folks pretty much the klingon language of the middle east.

[GallowsBird]

well according to a lebanese guy i talked with long time ago, Farsi is for arab folks pretty much the klingon language of the middle east.


Probably because it is an Indo-European language like Hindi, French, Welsh and English amongst others.

[Sir Comradical]

well according to a lebanese guy i talked with long time ago, Farsi is for arab folks pretty much the klingon language of the middle east.

lolol. I've often said that Arabic is to Farsi what German is to French. The former comes off as aggressive and harsh, while the latter is considered much softer. In this sense, Arabic is the Klingon.

[RGacky3]

Does it matter? I think he would claim he's not anti-semetic, just anti-israel and a holocause denier (in other words a huge moron).

[Nehru]

Does it matter? I think he would claim he's not anti-semetic, just anti-israel and a holocause denier (in other words a huge moron).

He is anti-Israel, not anti-Semitic and doesn't deny the holocaust. Nor is he a moron. He is a charismatic leader.

[Princess Luna]

He is anti-Israel, not anti-Semitic and doesn't deny the holocaust. Nor is he a moron. He is a charismatic leader.
Oh, really?

They have fabricated a legend, under the name Massacre of the Jews, and they hold it higher than God himself, religion itself and the prophets themselves...If somebody in their country questions God, nobody says anything, but if somebody denies the myth of the massacre of Jews, the Zionist loudspeakers and the governments in the pay of Zionism will start to scream
Holocaust denier- Check
Moron- Check
and as a cherry on the anti-semitic sunday, Iran hosted the International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust which featured famous holocaust deniers from around the world including the darling of Stormfront, David Duke.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I'm not a fan of this guy and he has shown signs of this for ages. Even during Passover he apparently disappeared, lol.

[RGacky3]

and doesn't deny the holocaust. Nor is he a moron. He is a charismatic leader.

Well he did deny the holocaust .... WHich makes him a moron.

As for charismatic leader, yeah, so was hitler, also if he was so charismatic then why does he need to steal elections and inprison protesters?

[Os Cangaceiros]

He is anti-Israel, not anti-Semitic and doesn't deny the holocaust. Nor is he a moron. He is a charismatic leader.

That dude is not charismatic at all.

[CynicalIdealist]

He doesn't deny the Holocaust. He doubts the Holocaust.

Which isn't much better, but then again America refuses to acknowledge its equally bad crimes against humanity.

[agnixie]

That dude is not charismatic at all.

To be quite fair about a man I otherwise dislike tremendously, he's got to be extremely good at what he does to play to the gallery, because he manages to keep power in a country where the people on top hate him and the people at the bottom hate him (although part of it is the mullah blaming all sorts of evil they do on him), while holding views (he's apparently a liberal-ish nationalist who has been accused of being a secularist) that are diametrally opposed to those of the group of people who have the real power. Who he has apparently successfully undermined in a bunch of sectors of their power apparatus.

I honestly doubt we'll ever know what he really believes in unless he somehow gets rid of the religious dudes on top, and probably not even.

[GreenCommunism]

All he ever said about the holocaust is that if it ever happened, it would be up to germany to pay the cost , not the palestinians.

[Devrim]

Well he did deny the holocaust .... WHich makes him a moron.

How does being a holocaust denier make somebody a moron?

Devrim

[GallowsBird]

lolol. I've often said that Arabic is to Farsi what German is to French. The former comes off as aggressive and harsh, while the latter is considered much softer. In this sense, Arabic is the Klingon.

Except German and French are closely related (both being Indo-European languages) but Farsi is not close to Arabic (as stated Iranian languages are Indo-European and Arabic is part of Western Semitic branch of the Afro-Asiatic family). Many westerners seem to think Arabs and Iranians are related closely linguistically (bear in mind that I am a Nostraicist so I do acknowledge they are related far enough back) and the same culturally when this isn't the case. Not all Middle Easterners (though Iran isn't universally considered as Middle Eastern, some consider it Central Asian) are Arabs, some are Turks (Altaic peoples), Kurds (Indo-Europeans), other Semitic peoples (Afro-Asiatic) and if you count those in Cyprus also Greeks (Indo-European). The Middle East is a culturally diverse place.

But yes I think Arabic is harsher than Iranian as it is more guttural like German, Dutch, Welsh et cetera, but of course that isn't to say I don't like the sound of Arabic which I do of course.

[Nehru]

That dude is not charismatic at all.

http://towleroad.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c730253ef0148c7e386bd970c-500wi

[Nehru]

Well he did deny the holocaust .... WHich makes him a moron.

As for charismatic leader, yeah, so was hitler, also if he was so charismatic then why does he need to steal elections and inprison protesters?

He never denied holocaust. the whole thing is a misinterpretation by the west. And you're foolish enough to buy it.

[RGacky3]

He never denied holocaust. the whole thing is a misinterpretation by the west. And you're foolish enough to buy it.

Go ahead and explain.


How does being a holocaust denier make somebody a moron?


Because your someone denying proven reality and hard facts without a real argument.

[Princess Luna]

He never denied holocaust. the whole thing is a misinterpretation by the west. And you're foolish enough to buy it.
So hosting a entire convention with the purpose of disproving the holocaust, and inviting Neo-Nazis like David Duke to speak at it, is just a misunderstanding?

[Viet Minh]

He doesn't deny the Holocaust. He doubts the Holocaust.

Which isn't much better, but then again America refuses to acknowledge its equally bad crimes against humanity.

And the Turkish deny the Armenian massacre, so that makes the US okay.. Owait, its irrelevant to this situation


How does being a holocaust denier make somebody a moron?

Devrim

For the same reason people who deny evolution are morons, or somebody who doesn't believe in gravity, or the earth orbiting the sun. When you make claims of something to be untrue, in face of a huge weight of evidence, you'd better have some pretty good proof yourself. So far as I'm aware he has none, and given his various other tirades its safe to assume his comments are politically motivated, not the work of an amateur historian happening upon some great misconception on the part of pretty much every expert on that period of history, and multiple eyewitnesses and survivors.


He never denied holocaust. the whole thing is a misinterpretation by the west. And you're foolish enough to buy it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4529198.stm

If its a misinterpretation, or even a conspiracy, its a pretty widespread one. He was later asked about his comments, and he revised them to ask why the jews were considered so important compared to the rest of the 60 million that lost their lives. On this I agree somewhat, in that we should never forget the gypsies, homosexuals, disabled, leftists, jehovahs witnesses, freemasons who died in the concentration camps, and of course the many millions who died fighting fascism. However after he allegedly made the comments that the holocaust [of jews] was a myth, he was interviewed on different occasions, and he never specifically denied having said that.

The question on whether or not he is Jewish is irrelevant, it is clear he is an anti-semite.

[Sir Comradical]

Except German and French are closely related (both being Indo-European languages) but Farsi is not close to Arabic (as stated Iranian languages are Indo-European and Arabic is part of Western Semitic branch of the Afro-Asiatic family). Many westerners seem to think Arabs and Iranians are related closely linguistically (bear in mind that I am a Nostraicist so I do acknowledge they are related far enough back) and the same culturally when this isn't the case. Not all Middle Easterners (though Iran isn't universally considered as Middle Eastern, some consider it Central Asian) are Arabs, some are Turks (Altaic peoples), Kurds (Indo-Europeans), other Semitic peoples (Afro-Asiatic) and if you count those in Cyprus also Greeks (Indo-European). The Middle East is a culturally diverse place.

But yes I think Arabic is harsher than Iranian as it is more guttural like German, Dutch, Welsh et cetera, but of course that isn't to say I don't like the sound of Arabic which I do of course.

Thanks dude. I knew all of the above anyway.

[Devrim]

For the same reason people who deny evolution are morons, or somebody who doesn't believe in gravity, or the earth orbiting the sun.

Look at the words I have put in italics. Neither you nor I know what he believes. It is a deeply different thing to deny something and not believe something, and there isn't necessarily a direct connection.

If we take the Armenian genocide, which has already been raised, as an example, it is quite obvious that it would be impossible to have any sort of political career in Turkey if you didn't deny that it happened. That doesn't necessarily mean that you believe that it didn't happen, though of course many of them must do, but that you are publicly denying it. It is called political expediency.

In fact I would go as far as to say that anybody who was trying to have a mainstream political career in Turkey and didn't deny the Armenian genocide, would be a moron.


When you make claims of something to be untrue, in face of a huge weight of evidence, you'd better have some pretty good proof yourself. So far as I'm aware he has none,...

Why does he need evidence? I don't think the people who he is playing to when he says things like this require much evidence.

He makes political capital from making a statement. Does that make him a moron or a smart political operator?

Devrim

[Devrim]

If its a misinterpretation, or even a conspiracy, its a pretty widespread one.


"They have created a myth today that they call the massacre of Jews and they consider it a principle above God, religions and the prophets," he said.

Here he doesn't say that the holocaust never happened. He says that "they have created a myth". If you don't think that Israel has built a myth around the holocaust, then you are clearly not paying much attention.

Devrim

[gorillafuck]

I don't see how this is relevant at all. Is it somehow worse to be an anti-semite if you have a Jewish past?

Sounds like he's being accused of being a race traitor.

[Viet Minh]

Look at the words I have put in italics. Neither you nor I know what he believes. It is a deeply different thing to deny something and not believe something, and there isn't necessarily a direct connection.

In that case though its even worse, it means he made the comments purely for political point-scoring. If Zionists use the Holocaust as an excuse for Israeli occupation thats unforgivable, and I can almost understand the motive to retaliate by denying the Holocaust, but its still a very insensitive remark, and most offensive to survivors who have nothing to do with Israel. The whole issue of the Holocaust has nothing to do with Israel, and any influential political leader should know better than to conflate the two.


If we take the Armenian genocide, which has already been raised, as an example, it is quite obvious that it would be impossible to have any sort of political career in Turkey if you didn't deny that it happened. That doesn't necessarily mean that you believe that it didn't happen, though of course many of them must do, but that you are publicly denying it. It is called political expediency.

In fact I would go as far as to say that anybody who was trying to have a mainstream political career in Turkey and didn't deny the Armenian genocide, would be a moron.

I don't know, there have been public apologies issued by various heads of state for various atrocities commited in the past, they probably don't do much to heal wounds or bridge gaps but they go some way to diplomatic relations between countries. Its too much to expect that between Israel and Iran, but fanning the flames is pointless.


Why does he need evidence? I don't think the people who he is playing to when he says things like this require much evidence.

He makes political capital from making a statement. Does that make him a moron or a smart political operator?

Well if he's looking to incite fury he's been successful, no doubt about it. But it doesn't really help anyone in the long term.


Here he doesn't say that the holocaust never happened. He says that "they have created a myth". If you don't think that Israel has built a myth around the holocaust, then you are clearly not paying much attention.

Okay I take your point, its possible his words may have been misrepresented. If he did invite David Duke to Iran though there's no justification for that.

[hatzel]

I'm pretty sure this is all just some conspiracy. Uncle Mahmoud says a load of silly stuff and does some silly stuff, too, swings public opinion in America and other countries in favour of an invasion of Iran, starts a huge war, somehow leads to Jewish world domination.

In all seriousness now for a second, I heard this story ages ago, and paid about as much attention to all that 'yeah, Hitler was a gay Jew with an African grandfather' stuff. I don't think it's the kind of thing that necessarily finds its basis in fact, rather than just whipping up a controversy with some kind of baseless talk of something that would be ironic.

Still, if he'll show me his long-form birth certificate, maybe we'll be able to put all this to bed...:rolleyes:

[Devrim]

In that case though its even worse, it means he made the comments purely for political point-scoring. If Zionists use the Holocaust as an excuse for Israeli occupation thats unforgivable, and I can almost understand the motive to retaliate by denying the Holocaust, but its still a very insensitive remark, and most offensive to survivors who have nothing to do with Israel. The whole issue of the Holocaust has nothing to do with Israel, and any influential political leader should know better than to conflate the two.


Worse than what? Worse for whom? Of course he made the comments purely for political reasons. That is his job. He conflates the two precisely because it fosters feelings of national unity in Iran, and increase Iranian influence abroad.

I am not in any way defending him, just saying that I don't think that he is 'mad'. In fact he is quite a smart political operator.

The mainstream US media has long had the habit of calling the leaders of the Iranian state, and amongst other people in the Middle East 'mad'. After 1979 it was the 'mad mullahs' in Tehran. Now if we look at what they actually believe; that there once lived a man who was divinely inspired, it is,in my opinion, pretty wacky, but if we compare it to what those sitting in the White House using this term believed; That God manifested himself on Earth, brought people back from the dead, then died and came back to life again three days later, and is coming back again, it seems comparatively quite reasonable.

Another one who has been called mad recently has been Gaddafi. Now Gaddafi has been in power for over forty years. Do you think that he has managed that without rather than being insane, actually being an astute political operator.


I don't know, there have been public apologies issued by various heads of state for various atrocities commited in the past, they probably don't do much to heal wounds or bridge gaps but they go some way to diplomatic relations between countries. Its too much to expect that between Israel and Iran, but fanning the flames is pointless.

Why?

Devrim

[Viet Minh]

Worse than what? Worse for whom? Of course he made the comments purely for political reasons. That is his job. He conflates the two precisely because it fosters feelings of national unity in Iran, and increase Iranian influence abroad.

I am not in any way defending him, just saying that I don't think that he is 'mad'. In fact he is quite a smart political operator.

The mainstream US media has long had the habit of calling the leaders of the Iranian state, and amongst other people in the Middle East 'mad'. After 1979 it was the 'mad mullahs' in Tehran. Now if we look at what they actually believe; that there once lived a man who was divinely inspired, it is,in my opinion, pretty wacky, but if we compare it to what those sitting in the White House using this term believed; That God manifested himself on Earth, brought people back from the dead, then died and came back to life again three days later, and is coming back again, it seems comparatively quite reasonable.

Another one who has been called mad recently has been Gaddafi. Now Gaddafi has been in power for over forty years. Do you think that he has managed that without rather than being insane, actually being an astute political operator.


The reason I said it was worse was because he made the comment to elicit a reaction, if it was made out of a genuine belief that was the truth then thats fair enough, people should be able to speak their minds. But to say it just to offend people.. I don't see the point. He is an outspoken critic of Israel which I admire, but to bring in antisemitic remarks and holocaust denial does nobody any favours. Least of all the Palestinians who at the best of times are wrongly portrayed by many as antisemitic.

And I never said he was mad, and when I said moron its not that he's not intelligent, its just I think he is needlessly controversial. That said he does get attention where he might otherwise be ignored entirely.



Why?

Devrim


Its like debating with someone about politics, and then making a 'yo mama' comment. Its pointless and irrelevant. I can see where you're coming from and he's in a difficult position, the west is looking for any excuse to demonize him, but I still think he did go too far with some comments.

[Red Commissar]

As the date on the telegraph article would indicate, this was back from 2009. There was a dispute over the claim though, and I think they are worth reading such as this one:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/oct/05/mahmoud-ahmadinejad-jewish-family


In June 2005, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's meteoric rise from mayor of Tehran to president of one of the most influential countries in the Middle East took everyone by surprise. One of the main reasons for the astonishment was that so little was known about him.

One recently published claim about his background comes from an article in the Daily Telegraph. Entitled "Mahmoud Ahmadinejad revealed to have Jewish past", it claims that his family converted to Islam after his birth. The claim is based on a number of arguments, a key one being that his previous surname was Sabourjian which "derives from weaver of the sabour, the name for the Jewish tallit shawl in Persia".

Professor David Yeroshalmi, author of The Jews of Iran in the 19th century and an expert on Iranian Jewish communities, disputes the validity of this argument. "There is no such meaning for the word 'sabour' in any of the Persian Jewish dialects, nor does it mean Jewish prayer shawl in Persian. Also, the name Sabourjian is not a well-known Jewish name," he stated in a recent interview. In fact, Iranian Jews use the Hebrew word "tzitzit" to describe the Jewish prayer shawl. Yeroshalmi, a scholar at Tel Aviv University's Center for Iranian Studies, also went on to dispute the article's findings that the "-jian" ending to the name specifically showed the family had been practising Jews. "This ending is in no way sufficient to judge whether someone has a Jewish background. Many Muslim surnames have the same ending," he stated.

Upon closer inspection, a completely different interpretation of "Sabourjian" emerges. According to Robert Tait, a Guardian correspondent who travelled to Ahmadinejad's native village in 2005, the name "derives from thread painter – sabor in Farsi – a once common and humble occupation in the carpet industry in Semnan province, where Aradan is situated". This is confirmed by Kasra Naji, who also wrote a biography of Ahmadinejad and met his family in his native village. Carpet weaving or colouring carpet threads are not professions associated with Jews in Iran.

According to both Naji and Tait, Ahmadinejad's father Ahmad was in fact a religious Shia, who taught the Quran before and after Ahmadinejad's birth and their move to Tehran. So religious was Ahmad Sabourjian that he bought a house near a Hosseinieh, a religious club that he frequented during the holy month of Moharram to mourn the martyrdom of Imam Hossein.

Moreover, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's mother is a Seyyede. This is a title given to women whose family are believed to be direct bloodline descendants of Prophet Muhammad. Male members are given the title of Seyyed, and include prominent figures such as Iran's supreme leader Ali Khamenei. In Judaism, this is equivalent to the Cohens, who are direct descendants of Aaron, the brother of Moses. One has to be born into a Seyyed family: the title is never given to Muslims by birth, let alone converts. This makes it impossible for Ahmadinejad's mother to have been a Jew. In fact, she was so proud of her lineage that everyone in her native village of Aradan referred to her by her Islamic title, Seyyede.

The reason that Ahmadinejad's father changed his surname has more to do with the class struggle in Iran. When it became mandatory to adopt surnames, many people from rural areas chose names that represented their professions or that of their ancestors. This made them easily identifiable as townfolk. In many cases they changed their surnames upon moving to Tehran, in order to avoid snobbery and discrimination from residents of the capital.

The Sabourjians were one of many such families. Their surname was related to carpet-making, an industry that conjures up images of sweatshops. They changed it to Ahmadinejad in order to help them fit in. The new name was also chosen because it means from the race of Ahmad, one of the names given to Muhammad.

According to Ahmadinejad's relatives the new name emphasised the family's piety and their dedication to their religion and its founder. This is something that the president and his relatives in Tehran and Aradan have maintained to the present day. Not because they are trying to deny their past, but because they are proud of it.

[Devrim]

As the date on the telegraph article would indicate, this was back from 2009. There was a dispute over the claim though, and I think they are worth reading such as this one:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/oct/05/mahmoud-ahmadinejad-jewish-family

This makes a lot more sense. If there was any truth to him having a Jewish background, you would have presumed that it would have come out in the recent faction fight in Iran, in which people have been accused of much more bizarre things.

Devrim

[Devrim]

The reason I said it was worse was because he made the comment to elicit a reaction, if it was made out of a genuine belief that was the truth then thats fair enough, people should be able to speak their minds.
...
Its like debating with someone about politics, and then making a 'yo mama' comment. Its pointless and irrelevant.

I think that you are missing the point here. He has an agenda, a part of which is to build national unity in Iran, and elicit support abroad. Looked at in these terms his comments are extremely logical. It is not a debate between him and Israel. It is propaganda for consumption both at home and in other countries such as Lebanon.

Devrim

[eyedrop]

I agree with Devrim here.

Think of everything a politician say as a strategical statement, think of what they gain and loose by their statements. It's obviously not meant to gain "western" support, but that doesn't mean it doesn't gain support. The statements may very well be strategically smart in his position even though it seems stupid from a "western" viewpoint, but I'm not that versed in "arab" mainstream politics so I'll refrain from saying anything

Politicians are spineless jellyfishes who say whatever they gain the most by saying. Generally only fringe politicians have any principles and they loose them if they see any possibility to gain power.

[Viet Minh]

Okay I see where you're coming from, but if he wants support, most importantly in Iran, the best way would surely be free and fair elections. It reminds me a bit of Gaddafi, between shooting protesters he was raving about western imperialism. Which is a valid complaint, but it doesn't justify his own actions.

[Devrim]

Okay I see where you're coming from, but if he wants support, most importantly in Iran, the best way would surely be free and fair elections.

What is a 'free and fair election'? I doubt that Ahmadinejad spent over $500,000,000 buying his election as Obama did. Then again, winning a crooked election is better than losing a fair one.

Devrim

[RGacky3]

Then again, winning a crooked election is better than losing a fair one.


Not for the people if Iran its not, if he looses a fair one then he should'nt be in power.


I doubt that Ahmadinejad spent over $500,000,000 buying his election as Obama did.

Nice strawman, no ones defending Obama here are they?

[Devrim]

Not for the people if Iran its not, if he looses a fair one then he should'nt be in power.

But his interests aren't some amorphous interests of the 'people of Iran'. His interests are in defending his own power, and that of his faction within the Iranian state.


Nice strawman, no ones defending Obama here are they?

I didn't say they were. I was just questioning what 'free and fair elections' were. In my opinion it doesn't really matter how 'free and fai^' they are anyway. They are still the dictatorship of capital.

Devrim

[RedSunRising]

But his interests aren't some amorphous interests of the 'people of Iran'. His interests are in defending his own power, and that of his faction within the Iranian state.



Do you think all politicians are basically cynical macheviallians?

[Devrim]

Do you think all politicians are basically cynical macheviallians?

No, but I don't think it matters. Whether he is a cynical machveiallian or he is honestly defending the ideas of his faction because he genuinely believes that they offer the best future for the Iranian people as a whole.

At the end of the day the result is the same.

Devrim