Libya Rebels had newest NATO Weapons from the Beginning

[The Vegan Marxist]

FNf3aHK7PaQ

[Sasha]

A look at Libyan rebels' workshop:
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[The Vegan Marxist]

^Yeah, because your video proves the weapons shown in the first one are fake, right? And those guys training them? Nahhhh, couldn't be! :rolleyes: Seriously, psycho, stop defending the reactionary rebels. It's quite clear what their role is in this war, from beginning to end.

[Sasha]

yeah, and your vid is an typical "if i say it in an whispery voice i dont have to present actual facts only assumptions" conspiracy kludge.
no one is denying that there are probably nato weapons and trainers flowing in to libya at the moment, but they aren't semi-automatics and its in all likelihood an recent thing.
ooh, but i cant be, sanctions!!! yeah, like that worked an charm in any other conflict, half of africa got murdered under sanctions, iran is even exporting weapons and NK build an frigging nucluar bomb. do you know what was the weapon possession rates in libya pre-uprising? think your worst redneck texas stereotype and multiply that a lot.
but belgium weapons!!! yes, machine guns from FN, the same maker gadaffi used to smuggle rifles from to the IRA.
etc etc etc

seriously TVM, do some fact checking before you throw everything on this board that at an first glance fits you discours. stop trying to fit an murky complicated world in your outdated dogma's.

[PhoenixAsh]

that first video is kind of racist...

[Sasha]

Oh, and if the rebels had topgrade military stuff and training from the get go instead of plunderd stuff from army depos because the libyan army only had junk left how come the rebels almost got slaughtered? Sheer determination by the glorious socialist army? Please....

[Kléber]

Gaddafi did have FN FAL's and other Western weapons. Stupid video, stupid post.


In August 2007 France signed contracts with Libya to sell anti-tank missiles and radio communications equipment worth a reported $405m. The European aerospace and defence giant EADS now has an office in Tripoli, and has sold civilian aircraft to the country. According to the Campaign Against Arms trade, the UK licensed over $6m worth of ammunition to Libya, including sniper rifles.
Russia also announced a small-arms and weapons deal to the value of $1.8bn in January 2010, worth nearly a quarter of its state arms exports.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2011/02/2011221163030575441.html

[crazyirish93]

I doubt they had brand new combat uniforms only recently introduced in to the united states army in his stores though.

[Sir Comradical]

Gaddafi did have FN FAL's and other Western weapons. Stupid video, stupid post.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2011/02/2011221163030575441.html

But that article doesn't mention FN-FAL's?

[Impulse97]

Why are the French and Russians selling Belgian and American weapons/Ammo?

[The Vegan Marxist]

Gaddafi did have FN FAL's and other Western weapons. Stupid video, stupid post.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2011/02/2011221163030575441.html

:laugh::laugh:

There's not a single damn mention of FN-FAL's throughout that entire article.

[gorillafuck]

Why are the French and Russians selling Belgian and American weapons/Ammo?Because everyone has weapons from all over nowadays due to trade, past influence (the middle east has a lot of AK-47's because of the USSR), trading, etc.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Oh, and if the rebels had topgrade military stuff and training from the get go instead of plunderd stuff from army depos because the libyan army only had junk left how come the rebels almost got slaughtered? Sheer determination by the glorious socialist army? Please....

No, just complete lack of mass support on the rebels part. They're not of the majority - no where near! It doesn't matter how much weaponry they got, nor at what grade of quality. They can't even have total support throughout Benghazi, let alone the rest of Libya! :laugh:

[PhoenixAsh]

Something the video did not mention is that the FN Fall is also made in the UK....in accordance to commonwealth ammunition standards...and as the standard variety in Venezuela.

Also...more importantly:


Libya is on the list of the using countries at teh very least since 2009 according 35th edition of Jane's Infantry Weapons (which is kind of the expert on arms and arms usage).

So...that basically blows the video out of the water.

/thread.

[RadioRaheem84]

Does where they received their weapons make the rebels any less reactionary?

Jeez, I thought we were all through with apologizing for the rebels?

[The Vegan Marxist]

Something the video did not mention is that the FN Fall is also made in the UK....in accordance to commonwealth ammunition standards...and as the standard variety in Venezuela.

Also...more importantly:


Libya is on the list of the using countries at teh very least since 2009 according 35th edition of Jane's Infantry Weapons (which is kind of the expert on arms and arms usage).

So...that basically blows the video out of the water.

/thread.

This could very well be so, and I appreciate the info.

Though, what's your take on those suspicious looking people helping them out with weaponry? I mean, we already know they've been receiving aid and training from the CIA and MI6. Though, the "official story" on that is they've only been there a few weeks before Obama's speech on America's position in Libya.

If it comes out that they've been there much longer, possibly during the very beginning, it would completely blast the mainstream story of how the "protests" erupted, and for what reasons.

[PhoenixAsh]

If that were the case and could be proven...yes, that would most definately blow that story out of the water.

[Kléber]

But that article doesn't mention FN-FAL's?
Yes but seeing a FN FAL in an African civil war is not very surprising, unlike modern Western weapons. Prior to 1969 coup, the Libyan military was transitioning to the FAL as its standard infantry weapon. Under Gaddafi, the army switched to Eastern weapons imported from the Soviet bloc, but kept its stock of FAL's in reserve. That would be the most likely source of the rifles now in rebel hands, and it's possible that more were purchased by the government during Gaddafi's abortive rapprochement with Western imperialism.

[Sasha]

again, gadaffi was in the position to give the IRA FN MAGs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_Irish_Republican_Army_arms_importation #Libyan_arms) and a whole bunch of other special stuff like SAMs, an few FALs is nothing extraordinary.
there is no problem with you posting stuff to defend your position, but its shoddy hack "journalism" each and every time, no one is going to take you serious if you keep posting "evidence" thats not one bit better than the "loose change" 9-11 stuff.

[Sir Comradical]

Yes but seeing a FN FAL in an African civil war is not very surprising, unlike modern Western weapons. Prior to 1969 coup, the Libyan military was transitioning to the FAL as its standard infantry weapon. Under Gaddafi, the army switched to Eastern weapons imported from the Soviet bloc, but kept its stock of FAL's in reserve. That would be the most likely source of the rifles now in rebel hands, and it's possible that more were purchased by the government during Gaddafi's abortive rapprochement with Western imperialism.

Ok thanks.

[Sasha]

No, just complete lack of mass support on the rebels part. They're not of the majority - no where near! It doesn't matter how much weaponry they got, nor at what grade of quality. They can't even have total support throughout Benghazi, let alone the rest of Libya! :laugh:

so you keep saying, but challenged on that claim you still fail to provide any actual proof that thats the case, you think i forgot that thread you quietly backed out of? i havent: http://www.revleft.com/vb/tvm-please-source-t152528/index.html

[Red Future]

The FN FAL is widely used in the "third world" ,hell they even make them in Brazil in workshops and Castro had them in the 1950s , its hardly a new weapon

[Salyut]

I have seen pictures of rebels with captured FN2000's. Very weird mix of firearms over there - although the logistics must be nightmarish for both sides. (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/04/22/the-guns-of-the-libyan-rebellion/)

last second edit: looks like FN sold the guns back in 2009. (http://www.expatica.com/be/news/belgian-news/belgium-probes-arms-sales-to-kadhafi-regime_131541.html)

[Red Future]

I did notice some of the Rebels in US army style desert fatigues though

[Marxach-Léinínach]

so you keep saying, but challenged on that claim you still fail to provide any actual proof that thats the case, you think i forgot that thread you quietly backed out of? i havent: http://www.revleft.com/vb/tvm-please-source-t152528/index.html

If they'd had mass support they'd have won aeons ago without NATO having to fight their war for them.

[agnixie]

If they'd had mass support they'd have won aeons ago without NATO having to fight their war for them.

So that's why the Russian civil war lasted 6 years :rolleyes:

[Sasha]

Yup, and why Franco won in Spain, the juntas in Greece and south America stayed in power etc etc. Not to forget that all those ppl in the 3th world really must have loved their colonial masters.....
:rolleyes:

[Marxach-Léinínach]

So that's why the Russian civil war lasted 6 years :rolleyes:

Russia was also invaded by 14 different countries during the Civil War

[Marxach-Léinínach]

Yup, and why Franco won in Spain, the juntas in Greece and south America stayed in power etc etc. Not to forget that all those ppl in the 3th world really must have loved their colonial masters.....
:rolleyes:

Franco also had Germany and Italy helping him out. In any case though I wouldn't be surprised about a lot of the people in those countries fearing communists more than their dictators. Especially in catholic Spain and South America.

As for the third world colonies, the colonials always used a strategy of divide and conquer.

[Sasha]

So, in all those cases its more complicated (outside support, divide and conquer) but not in Libya? That same Libya where the proletariat suffered under 40 years of policestate, cultivated racism and tribalism, etc etc.
Do you even think before you type?

[pranabjyoti]

So, in all those cases its more complicated (outside support, divide and conquer) but not in Libya? That same Libya where the proletariat suffered under 40 years of policestate, cultivated racism and tribalism, etc etc.
Do you even think before you type?
Yes, that Libya, where distribution of wealth, educational and medical service is just examples for other Arab countries. Libya has the highest standard of living in Africa and pretty ahead then their neighbors by HDI standard.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Yes, that Libya, where distribution of wealth, educational and medical service is just examples for other Arab countries. Libya has the highest standard of living in Africa and pretty ahead then their neighbors by HDI standard.

No offense, but this is not logical argument. Libya is far more oil-rich than any other African country except for Equatorial Guinea, and the North African states have been more prosperous than sub-saharan states for some time for a whole host of historical reasons not worth it to get into. You're completely glossing over the history and the material conditions of the people.

Japan is richer than Vietnam, that doesn't prove that Japanese capitalism is a good model. The USA is richer than Cuba too, that also doesn't prove anything.

What do we know about Libya? Despite these solid indicators, it has a horrible health care system ... the hospitals are so unclean that a bunch of children got AIDS in the 90s! Libya also has very high unemployment, and the schools are totally politicized. So I don't know if other Arab states really view Libya as an example anymore.

[RadioRaheem84]

See what kind of logic are you people using when you make your arguments? It's utterly pathetic.

You guys make these example comparisons up that bear NO relvancy to the topic and it's fucking annoying.

So what if Japanese capitalism is richer than Vietnam, would I support a NATO led mission to undue whatever social structure they've built for their citizens in favor of pure neo-liberalism? NO.

Secondly, Libya is not another third world capitalist nation, it's a nationalist bourgeois nation with a moderate welfare state. NATO and the rebels want to sink back into the third world, where your comparisons would actually make sense.

The neo-liberalization of the nation in the late 80s, early 90s brought a shit load of problems, problems that were recommended by the same lot now using NATO to kick the shit out of Gaddafi to attain power.

It isn't glossing over the history or the material conditions of the people to put tdown these idiotic comparisons with other third world nations and make it seem like Gaddafi = Suharto need to just stop embarrassing themselves. Libya is far from perfect and Gaddafi needs to go, but to keep hamming it on about Libya just being the worst piece of shit nation is spurious.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Secondly, Libya is not another third world capitalist nation, it's a nationalist bourgeois nation with a moderate welfare state. NATO and the rebels want to sink back into the third world, where your comparisons would actually make sense.
and Gaddafi needs to go, but to keep hamming it on about Libya just being the worst piece of shit nation is spurious.

A bourgeois nation by definition is capitalist, whatever the level of welfare state it has.I don't know if Libya is "the worst sort of shit nation" but the regime is obviously despised by large elements of the population.Something quite obviously has been going wrong in Libya for decades and more recently
the Qaddaffi regime appears to have become engulfed in the same crisis of capitalism as the rest of the world.

Denying working class agency in countries such as Libya and Syria, (or anywhere else for that matter) ironically plays into the hands of imperialism and makes imperialist intervention that much easier.

To put it very bluntly, uncritical "anti-imps" such as the PSL and their supporters are doing imperialism's dirty work for free.

[Sasha]

@ radioraheem,
Sigh, that was the whole point, we weren't comparing Libya with central africa, your lot did and we called them out on it.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Uhhhh Raheem, you missed what I was saying. I was responding to Pranab's argument that Gaddafi is a good leader because he's a better leader than the head of state of other African countries. Hence my statement about Vietnam and Japan, which you completely misconstrued.

Also, I have yet to see any evidence of this great welfare state that Gaddafi set up. Are we talking about the "welfare state" where children get HIV in the state-run hospitals? I've heard that health, housing and education in Libya is variable based on where you live, and often of the poorest quality despite Libya's substantial oil income (perhaps too much of the money was being siphoned to the Sovereign wealth fund, which was in the tens of billions of $$). Now, if poor living standards contributed to triggering this insurrection, I don't see why the people would accept a government which further reduced state welfare, especially in such an oil rich country (Welfare state bourgeois nationalists often do well politically in states endowed with great natural resources like Libya, as long as the CIA doesn't get involved at least :P ).

[Sir Comradical]

Some more information about the Rebels/NATO-puppets.

"Former employees of the Libyan government, particularly those linked to the security apparatus, have been seized by armed gangs wearing ski masks, beaten and imprisoned, and in many cases murdered. Dozens of corpses bearing signs of torture and summary execution have turned up in the streets of the city, or dumped in rural areas outside it."

"While the Benghazi-based opposition has proved impotent as a military force against Gaddafi, it is fully capable of inflicting repression on the local population. The Post report continues: “Rebel commanders have created a wanted list and placed suspects under round-the-clock surveillance. Secret militia units raid houses without court warrants and often interrogate suspects for hours…. In recent weeks, at least seven former members of the internal security police have turned up dead, their bodies riddled with bullets. Although it is not known who killed them, many suspect that they died at the hands of rebel-affiliated death squads."

"A similar depiction of conditions in Benghazi appears in an article published by the New York Times 10 days earlier. Reporter Kareem Fahim described the finding of corpses of former Gaddafi regime functionaries, which “raised the specter of a death squad stalking former Gaddafi officials in Benghazi, the opposition stronghold."

"At a ceremony marking this event Sunday, TNC leader Mustafa Abdul-Jalil—a former top official of the Gaddafi regime—declared that those powers backing the rebels would receive an economic reward through preferential access to Libya’s oil resources. “Our friends who support this revolution will have the best opportunity in future contracts in Libya,” he said."

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/may2011/liby-m23.shtml

[#FF0000]

i really don't understand why people think the rebels are good guys

[ellipsis]

calling FALs "newest" is laughable, it is a very, very common weapon produced and fields by many countries.

also the video falsely identified certain weapons as US. it also mentions "NATO calibers" when .308/7.62x51 is a universal chambering.

[Crux]

Some more information about the Rebels/NATO-puppets.

"Former employees of the Libyan government, particularly those linked to the security apparatus, have been seized by armed gangs wearing ski masks, beaten and imprisoned, and in many cases murdered. Dozens of corpses bearing signs of torture and summary execution have turned up in the streets of the city, or dumped in rural areas outside it."

"While the Benghazi-based opposition has proved impotent as a military force against Gaddafi, it is fully capable of inflicting repression on the local population. The Post report continues: “Rebel commanders have created a wanted list and placed suspects under round-the-clock surveillance. Secret militia units raid houses without court warrants and often interrogate suspects for hours…. In recent weeks, at least seven former members of the internal security police have turned up dead, their bodies riddled with bullets. Although it is not known who killed them, many suspect that they died at the hands of rebel-affiliated death squads."

"A similar depiction of conditions in Benghazi appears in an article published by the New York Times 10 days earlier. Reporter Kareem Fahim described the finding of corpses of former Gaddafi regime functionaries, which “raised the specter of a death squad stalking former Gaddafi officials in Benghazi, the opposition stronghold."

"At a ceremony marking this event Sunday, TNC leader Mustafa Abdul-Jalil—a former top official of the Gaddafi regime—declared that those powers backing the rebels would receive an economic reward through preferential access to Libya’s oil resources. “Our friends who support this revolution will have the best opportunity in future contracts in Libya,” he said."

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/may2011/liby-m23.shtml
My, why oh why would they kill the heads of the security police. I mean Libya was such a well-functioning and just state before, who could possibly hold any grudge against the internal security police?