Anti-fascists paintbomb fascist pub in Brighton.

[IndependentCitizen]

“Report of paintbomb attack on the Railway Bell, Brighton. Fascist hangout…

If you like your beer with a hint of racism you can probably do no better than the Railway Bell…

On March 24th the March for England, a flag waving front for fascist scum, the ENA (English Nationalist Alliance) and EDL (English Defence League), held a march in Brighton

March for England was attended by several divisions of the English Defence League

Their meeting point was the Railway Bell, opposite Brighton Station. The pub opened early to accommodate the fash and served as a reassembly point for marchers after their parade through town.

The Railway Bell has been a popular venue for fascists during previous Brighton marches.

The MfE, ENA and EDL are not welcome and will be resisted

In the early hours of this morning antifascists hurled paintbombs at the Railway Bell before disappearing into the night.”

Well done to the participants, fascism shouldn't be tolerated.

[Niall]

Fair play to them

[Anarchist Skinhead]

ha! good news :)

[Socialfist]

:laugh:Fuck the islamophobes but I wouldn't show support for defacing someone who probs doesn't even support the EDL's property, or am I wrong?

[Anarchist Skinhead]

thing is that they do, they specifically said that they don't mind EDL drinking in their pub and allowed them to put their flags up before the demo.. so they can fuck off!

[Quail]

Have these antifascists been raising awareness about this pub and its support of the EDL/ENA as well as paintbombing it? To someone who doesn't know much about the situation, this could just seem like a random act of vandalism.

[Leftie]

Have these antifascists been raising awareness about this pub and its support of the EDL/ENA as well as paintbombing it? To someone who doesn't know much about the situation, this could just seem like a random act of vandalism.

I think its fairly obvious that if the EDL are in a pub and some people paintbomb it its probably not a random act of vandalism.

[Anarchist Skinhead]

depends by what you mean by raising awareness? there had been some posters around that i have seen etc. but no proper action highlighting the role of that pub in fascist mobilisation. Saying that it is only what I know and not being directly involved I might have missed some stuff.

[Bronco]

Wow what a great victory over Fascism, a bit of paint was thrown over a pub where the EDL sometimes have a pint. Come on, seriously?

[IndependentCitizen]

Antifa has been sprayed on the walls on the march before last, and If I remember likely, under antifa it said stop the fascist sympathisers.

[Anarchist Skinhead]

Bronco, is anybody claiming that this is a great victory over fascism? Don't you have better things to do than talk shit on forums? You are more than welcome to do something better, I for one congratulate however did it.

[YorkshireAntifa]

No, not a great victory, but it'll no doubt piss them off. Fair play to the antifas!

[IndependentCitizen]

Wow what a great victory over Fascism, a bit of paint was thrown over a pub where the EDL sometimes have a pint. Come on, seriously?

It's a statement, and sign of opposition. Not like anywhere else has taken up much action lately. It'll also be a form of economic disruption. They'll need to clean it off, which will require them using staff away from the bar, or hired cleaners to clean it. May be small, but it sends a big message.

[progressive_lefty]

Anything to piss the fash off.

[Sam_b]

Don't you have better things to do than talk shit on forums?
This is ironic.


It's a statement, and sign of opposition

This isn't how we beat fascism though, is it? In fact such action didn't really acheive anything.


It'll also be a form of economic disruption

This is also pretty spurious.

[Anarchist Skinhead]

Sam b- I was half-expecting you to re-appear somewhere here . Any example of your successful combating of fascism recently perhaps?
Don't you have like some papers to sell or something? :)

[Anarchist Skinhead]

This is ironic.



This isn't how we beat fascism though, is it? In fact such action didn't really acheive anything.



This is also pretty spurious.


Of course, everybody knows that we beat fascism by selling loads of papers, making arrangements with the police and shouting "narzis" at the edl from behind the safety of the police cordon, following glorious UAF leadership :)

[Sam_b]

I don't particularly support everything that the UAF does, nor am I a member of UAF. Try again champ.

[Anarchist Skinhead]

SWP though, so its the same thing. We had that discussion before.

[Sasha]

he finally left the swp though...

[Anarchist Skinhead]

Doesn't look like his mind did the same though ;)
Back to the topic though, whoever did it- well done! Don't worry about naysayers, internet forums are always full of clever folks that know the best ;)

[Olentzero]

How, exactly, are a few paintbombs and spraypainted slogans going to convince the community at large to actually organize themselves and show the fascists they're not welcome? Especially since those directly responsible disappeared as soon as the deed was done. All the neighborhood is left with is the lingering odor of paint in the air and, more than likely, a few muttered comments about how the damn kids need to find something better to do. How is that going to keep the nazis out of that pub and the neighborhood?

...or is your point not to organize the neighborhood against fascism?

[Anarchist Skinhead]

But actions like that don't stop anybody from organising the neighbourhood at all! It is completely different sort of action and it doesn't mean that in Brighton Anti-fascists are only throwing paintbombs, quite the opposite actually.
At the same time it sends the message to the pub- want to host fascists in your pub and make money on it, there will be consequences and you might find that it is actually not that profitable as you think.

[Olentzero]

True, such actions don't stop anybody from organizing, but they don't do anything to organize the neighborhood, either. And if the Brighton antifas are doing both (guerrilla actions and organizing), it's going to have a limiting effect on their ability to organize because people who could otherwise be won to organizing against fascism might be leery of joining the Brighton group precisely because they don't wish to be associated with the paintbombing type of tactics.

Additionally, organizing the neighborhood to do something like picketing the pub around the time the fascists are due to congregate would do a lot more towards hurting the Bell barkeep's bottom line than having to pay out of pocket for paint removal (if it's not covered by his insurance, that is). Plus if the cops break up the picket - there's the bonus of anti-cop sentiment among the larger community. More organizing potential!

[Tim Finnegan]

Of course, everybody knows that we beat fascism by selling loads of papers, making arrangements with the police and shouting "narzis" at the edl from behind the safety of the police cordon, following glorious UAF leadership :)
What is with this whole "hierarchy of anti-fascism" stuff on the left? The UAFers look down on the non-confrontational liberals, the AFAers look down on the UAFers, the RAers look down on the AFAers.. Is there someone at the top of the tower who, I don't know, breaks into Nick Griffin's house every Tuesday and sets fire to the bed? http://media.bigoo.ws/content/smile/miscellaneous/smile_280.gif

[Anarchist Skinhead]

the AFAers look down on the UAFers, http://media.bigoo.ws/content/smile/miscellaneous/smile_280.gif

Its painful experience my friend ;)
@Olentzero- while some of the stuff you say/write has certain merit to it, you are far away and don't know the local situation very well, yet you seem to be totally sure how things work here and what is the best solution- unless of course I am reading it wrong , in which case I apologise ;)

[Quail]

I think its fairly obvious that if the EDL are in a pub and some people paintbomb it its probably not a random act of vandalism.
My point was, how do the general public know that the pub sympathises with the EDL and gives them a place to hang out before and after their demos?

depends by what you mean by raising awareness? there had been some posters around that i have seen etc. but no proper action highlighting the role of that pub in fascist mobilisation. Saying that it is only what I know and not being directly involved I might have missed some stuff.
I meant anything really. Any kind of information campaign. For example, activists could have used facebook (or something similar) to inform people and encourage them to tell the pub that their support for the EDL is unacceptable. Flyering, postering, etc. An action like this is pretty pointless unless people who aren't involved understand why it is happening.

[Olentzero]

Its painful experience my friend ;)
@Olentzero- while some of the stuff you say/write has certain merit to it, you are far away and don't know the local situation very well, yet you seem to be totally sure how things work here and what is the best solution- unless of course I am reading it wrong , in which case I apologise ;)Well, yes, I'm not in Brighton, but I do have experience organizing and participating in anti-fascist demonstrations. One of my favorites was a march in Washington DC to shadow what was supposed to be a march by the World Church of the Creator, culminating in a rally in front of the White House. On the day of the march, some 2,000-3,000 radical and progressive activists showed up to march; as we approached the White House we found out that a grand total of 4 WCC fascists had showed up at the staging point and, clearly having heard about what was waiting for them, called the whole thing off. They ended up being sued by the city for misuse of funds because they'd arranged for a police escort and everything. That was sometime in the late 1990s, if I remember correctly, and there hasn't been a hint of open fascist activity in DC since.

So no, perhaps I don't know every last detail of what's going on in Brighton, but I have a damned good idea of what works.

[PhoenixAsh]

I like the action. But without content its useless. Both are needed to make an actual impact. Both the literature and the arguments.

Without it it would be just another attack on just another shop...or even interpreted as trying to stiffle "freedom of speech" (the horror of it all...ieee) by the neighborhood population....or be completely ignored.

Imagine what would happen when the next day a flyer was distributed defending the action and explaining it...some would disagree but almost everybody would actually be forced to acknowledge the issue.

[Niall]

Imagine what would happen when the next day a flyer was distributed defending the action and explaining it...some would disagree but almost everybody would actually be forced to acknowledge the issue.

I like the action too but youre right, this could and should have happened also.

[Olentzero]

Still don't agree with the action itself, but I gotta go with the content definitely being necessary.

[Anarchist Skinhead]

Olentzero- I don't see at all how what you described has ANYTHING to do with Brighton and the action itself. So I am not sure if you know "pretty damn good how IT works". Not convicing so far ;)
As for the action- i have seen some posters in the area before , thousands of locals also had seen dozens of fash in the pub on the day and their flags all over it, so i reckon if somebody would have seen it paintbombed, they would figure it out why it happened. For those more inquisitive its always possible to find the message on indymedia as well. Perhaps there were some leaflets/posters in the are as well, i have no idea. It just strikes me as ...lets say strange at the very least.. that everybody not even from anywhere close to Brighton has so much to say about this action. To me personally not every action, especially so small like this , has to be widelly explained everywhere possible becasue lets face it, main idea was obviously to pass on the message to pub owners/landlords.

[Olentzero]

Olentzero- I don't see at all how what you described has ANYTHING to do with Brighton and the action itself.Oh, I don't know, perhaps organizing members of the community against an unwanted fascist presence?! Brighton's not some special place where community organizing tactics don't function. Lessons learned elsewhere can be applied here.

[Decolonize The Left]

There's nothing wrong with this action. It's neither the most useful nor the least productive, it's simply another anti-fascist action and all anti-fascist actions contribute towards the battle.

I'm not going to dance at my laptop because it happened, but I'm also not going to hate on it because it wasn't something else. Everything contributes and is useful in some way.

- August

[Sam_b]

all anti-fascist actions contribute towards the battle

Wow. All antifascist actions (legit and 'so called') have got to have at their very basis a class understanding of the issue and posess a stragegy of awareness and community-building within the larger class itself. Squadism does not work as a long-term strategy.

[Decolonize The Left]

Wow. All antifascist actions (legit and 'so called') have got to have at their very basis a class understanding of the issue and posess a stragegy of awareness and community-building within the larger class itself. Squadism does not work as a long-term strategy.

I never claimed it was a long-term strategy, nor would I. What I am saying is that you (nor I) understand the simple impact of paintbombing a fascist pub. It could result in infuriating some guys, it could result is further solidifying their support for one another, or it could cause one guy to wonder how many people actually support what he's doing... we don't know.

What it does demonstrate is resistance. Is it petty? Yeah, for the most part. But it's still resistance and I'm not going to crap on the way someone resists fascists because it's not academically intelligent or my kind of long-term strategy. Doing this would be counter-productive. Better to express simple support and attempt to elevate this form of resistance into something more effective and long-term, no?

- August

[RedSunRising]

Have these antifascists been raising awareness about this pub and its support of the EDL/ENA as well as paintbombing it? To someone who doesn't know much about the situation, this could just seem like a random act of vandalism.

Sometimes the point of actions is terrorizing reactionaires as opposed to propaganda work.

Heres to those who done it!

[CommieTroll]

:laugh:Fuck the islamophobes but I wouldn't show support for defacing someone who probs doesn't even support the EDL's property, or am I wrong?

The owner of the pub obviously knows his regular customers and is probably happy for the trade but reguardless of that he is responsible for giving these fascists a meeting place

[nuisance]

Wow. All antifascist actions (legit and 'so called') have got to have at their very basis a class understanding of the issue and posess a stragegy of awareness and community-building within the larger class itself. Squadism does not work as a long-term strategy.
They ain't mutually exclusive, and the only people that assert this false dichotomy are Trots that attribute new 'ism's left right and centre. What jokers! :lol:

[Anarchist Skinhead]

well, he is a Trot ;)

[Sasha]

An simple look at the history of British anti-fascism shows that "squadism" had an way more significant impact than anything the swp/ANL did post expulsion (lets not forget who created those "squads" to begin with) waving lollipops and calling on the disenfranchised white working-class to vote labor has been only counterproductive.
Seriously, go read "beating the fascists", it has more classanalysis in one page than an years worth of socialist worker.

[Ravachol]

Wow. All antifascist actions (legit and 'so called') have got to have at their very basis a class understanding of the issue and posess a stragegy of awareness and community-building within the larger class itself. Squadism does not work as a long-term strategy.

Yeah, because shouting 'nazi scum off our streets!' every now and then and touring together with some Labour party fuckhead in a 'Hope, not hate!' tourbus convincing people to 'VOTE LABOUR AGAINST THE NAZI BNP LOLZ!' is really an expression of working class power.. :laugh: Not to mention inviting tory MPs now and then to speak out against fascism to build a 'broad anti-fascist alliance' and what not...

Denouncing any militant action as 'squadism' and supposing it somehow excludes broader, class-based action is just another rethorical trick of leftist bureaucrats trying to monopolize a struggle in order to turn it into a party-recruiting ground.

[Sasha]

Not to mention pretty ironic considering that the expulsion of the squads led to the last significant working-class membership of the swp leaving.
You can say what you want about RedAction but in the field of an actual understanding of the white workingclass they had a lot more right to speak than any SwP hack.

[Olentzero]

Is that the best you idiots can do to defend squadism? Start another SWP pile-on?

[Ravachol]

Is that the best you idiots can do to defend squadism? Start another SWP pile-on?

Surely this is the greatest of responses!

[Olentzero]

Well, I mean, if there's some underlying political or tactical philosophy that justifies forming a squad and paintbombing a pub besides the weaksauce arguments presented here, it would behoove the defenders to use it instead of simply telling the SWP how much they think it sucks. Really, is it that hard to see which approach has the greater potential for productive discussion? That is, assuming you guys actually have something along those lines. Which, I strongly suspect, you don't.

[An archist]

Well, I mean, if there's some underlying political or tactical philosophy that justifies forming a squad and paintbombing a pub besides the weaksauce arguments presented here, it would behoove the defenders to use it instead of simply telling the SWP how much they think it sucks. Really, is it that hard to see which approach has the greater potential for productive discussion? That is, assuming you guys actually have something along those lines. Which, I strongly suspect, you don't.

A couple of years ago, people in Leuven (my hometown) started a small-scale campaign against a bar that allowed a fascist student group to hold their meetings in the room above the bar.
Posters were put up, with a picture of the bar and a big swastika over it and a small description of the problem.
The bar suffered some small acts of vandalism, like graffiti and stickers on the windows.

And right now, the fascists aren't welcome there anymore.

So, I think we can say, these tactics can definitely work.

[Olentzero]

Ah, but that wasn't just a paintbombing like the OP described; in fact there doesn't seem to have been anything like the paintbombing involved. There was a campaign around it - which others in this thread have agreed would have been good for Brighton. The criticism leveled here, as I understand it, is that squad tactics alone don't work, since they don't reach out to the community like even the posters in Leuven attempted to do.

Much better response, however. Thank you.

[Anarchist Skinhead]

Well, I mean, if there's some underlying political or tactical philosophy that justifies forming a squad and paintbombing a pub besides the weaksauce arguments presented here, it would behoove the defenders to use it instead of simply telling the SWP how much they think it sucks. Really, is it that hard to see which approach has the greater potential for productive discussion? That is, assuming you guys actually have something along those lines. Which, I strongly suspect, you don't.


yawn...

[Anarchist Skinhead]

And to finish this discussion Olentzero- I am pretty sure that nobody involved in militant anti-fascism in the Brighton area does actually give a flying fuck what you got to say about that action and anything else here and whether you "approve" or not.

End of story.

[RedSunRising]

Is that the best you idiots can do to defend squadism? Start another SWP pile-on?

Define defending "squadism"? Fascism has a physical agenda that has to be confronted physically, it also has a political one that has to be fought politically, Red Action and AFA in its hey day were very concerned with fighting fascism politically in a way that most of the left were not, the UAF/SWP does not fight fascism politically rather it appeals to liberal sentiments rather than giving class based answers to the white working class alienation that fascists often parasite of. Things are not necesscarily either/or they can also be both/and.

[Sasha]

its even essential to do both, i, together with others, just managed too stop an david irving speech. you know what was the stated reason? not his despicable holocaust denial but the threat of public disturbance.
you think that happened if the IS called for an picket instead of AFA for an physical blockade?

[RedSunRising]

its even essential to do both

There is also the question of how effective the political work of the UAF is seeing as it is largely based around a bourgeois liberal persecptive as opposed to a class one.

[Olentzero]

the UAF/SWP does not fight fascism politically rather it appeals to liberal sentiments rather than giving class based answers to the white working class alienation that fascists often parasite of.Seeing as how you justifiably got called on your completely inaccurate assessment of the participants in Slutwalk, I'm gonna have to ask you to cite concrete examples here. As far as I'm concerned your political analyses right now aren't worth the pixels my screen uses to show them to me.

[Anarchist Skinhead]

excellent, I was really getting bored of reading your "wise" comments .

[hail_to_che69]

wow good on em, we cant let the facist plauge spread

[RedSunRising]

Seeing as how you justifiably got called on your completely inaccurate assessment of the participants in Slutwalk, I'm gonna have to ask you to cite concrete examples here. As far as I'm concerned your political analyses right now aren't worth the pixels my screen uses to show them to me.

Oh go over their silly website.... http://uaf.org.uk/

Anyway I wasnt saying anything much different about them Ravachol here.

[Sam_b]

eah, because shouting 'nazi scum off our streets!' every now and then and touring together with some Labour party fuckhead in a 'Hope, not hate!' tourbus convincing people to 'VOTE LABOUR AGAINST THE NAZI BNP LOLZ!' is really an expression of working class power..

You'll get a prize if you can point out where I said that. This right here is the fundamentals of the situation and the categorical error being made by mainly the british Antifascist left right now: that its a choice between one or another of these things. There appears to be no more reading of stategic analysis these days.


Not to mention pretty ironic considering that the expulsion of the squads led to the last significant working-class membership of the swp leaving

Evidence?


I am pretty sure that nobody involved in militant anti-fascism in the Brighton area does actually give a flying fuck what you got to say about that action and anything else here and whether you "approve" or not.

So in short you're now accusing the 'militant anti-fascists' in Brighton of both being sectarian and inflexible?

[Anarchist Skinhead]

Did somebody fart? I swear I heard something..

[Olentzero]

Oh go over their silly website.... http://uaf.org.uk/I did, looked around a bit. Anything in particular you feel needs pointing out?

[Sasha]

I did, looked around a bit. Anything in particular you feel needs pointing out?


http://uaf.org.uk/about/founding-signatories/

for starters, you cant fight fascism if you pride yourself on support from the very people who lie at the root of fascism developing.

also: Barking public meeting called to defend multiculturalism (http://uaf.org.uk/2011/05/barking-public-meeting-to-defend-multiculturalism/)

an small example of UAF's substitution of class analysis for an racial one that plays right into the fascists hands.

[Anarchist Skinhead]

http://uaf.org.uk/about/founding-signatories/

for starters, you cant fight fascism if you pride yourself on support from the very people who lie at the root of fascism developing.

also: Barking public meeting called to defend multiculturalism (http://uaf.org.uk/2011/05/barking-public-meeting-to-defend-multiculturalism/)

an small example of UAF's substitution of class analysis for an racial one that plays right into the fascists hands.

that

[Olentzero]

for starters, you cant fight fascism if you pride yourself on support from the very people who lie at the root of fascism developing.Who might those be, among that list?
an small example of UAF's substitution of class analysis for an racial one that plays right into the fascists hands.Not following your logic here. How is a meeting to discuss how to organize against the fascists substituting a race analysis for a class one? Are the majority of immigrants in Barking and Dagenham not working class?

All you're doing in both of these threads is throwing small amounts of data and quotes around, with no analysis to back it up, and expecting that to be rock-solid proof.

[Sasha]

Who might those be, among that list?

Ken Livingstone
Tony Benn
Peter Hain MP
David Hanson MP
Adam Price MP
Barbara Follett MP
Diane Abbott MP
John Cryer MP
John Trickett MP
Keith Vaz MP
Peter Bottomley MP
Alice Mahon MP
Alan Meale MP
Ian Gibson MP
Sir Teddy Taylor MP
Harry Cohen MP
Betty Williams MP
Ken Purchase MP
Laura Moffatt MP
Peter Bradley MP
Vera Baird MP
Bill Etherington MP
Edward Garnier MP
Roger Berry MP
Angela Smith MP
Brian Iddon MP
Anthony Steen MP
Mike Hancock MP
Colin Pickthall MP
Clive Betts MP
Janet Anderson MP
Neil Gerrard MP
Jane Griffiths MP
Brian Donohue MP
Helen Clark MP
Terry Davis MP
Janet Dean MP
Adrian Bailey MP
David Cameron MP
Louise Ellman MP
Eric Illsley MP
Kelvin Hopkins MP
Ernie Ross MP
Rob Marris MP
Martin Caton MP
Jim Sheridan MP
Martin Jones MP
Paul Tyler MP
Colin Challen MP
David Wright MP
Rudi Vis MP
Tony Worthington MP
Derek Watts MP
Julie Morgan MP
Rev W Martin Smyth MP
Diana Organ MP
Doug Henderson MP
Barry Gardiner MP
Glenys Kinnock
MEP
Gary Titley MEP
Linda McAvan MEP
Glyn Ford MEP
Chris Heaton-Harris MEP
Claude Moraes MEP
Phillip Whitehead MEP
Stephen Hughes MEP
David Seymour
Political Editor,
Daily Mirror
Mark Seddon
Tribune Editor
Liberal democrats

so i would say about half of that list for sure

[Olentzero]

Any particular reasons why? I mean, right now you sound like Joe McCarthy. "I have in my hand a list..."

[Sasha]

if i still have to explain how bourgeois politicians are the root problem of fascism i doubt you'll ever understand.
didnt you say you have trotskys "fascism, what is it an how to fight it" on your shelf?
go and read it i would say.

[dwyck]

I agree with whoever said that this isn't really the best way to fight fascism but I'm sure whoever did it got some enjoyment out of it and it will of pissed some quasi-fascist wankers off. So no harm done I say :)

[Anarchist Skinhead]

:bored: there is no help for some people..

[Tim Finnegan]

if i still have to explain how bourgeois politicians are the root problem of fascism i doubt you'll ever understand.
Now there's a blue-ribbon generalisation.

[Ravachol]

Now there's a blue-ribbon generalisation.

There are no proletarian politicians (and most certainly not on that list!), anyone who believes otherwise is on crack.

[Tim Finnegan]

There are no proletarian politicians (and most certainly not on that list!), anyone who believes otherwise is on crack.
Are you two competing to see who can produce the most blatant over-simplification or something?

[Olentzero]

It would be one thing if the UAF saw the signatories listed above as somehow leaders in the fight against fascism. That would be a political dead end. But the mere fact that these politicians signed on to the UAF's founding statement is not grounds to assume that the UAF does so. A quick glance at the Barking and Dagenham campaign to unseat the BNP from the town council is a clear indication of the opposite - nowhere on their flyer (http://uaf.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/stoke_leaflet.pdf) does it say anything about voting for any specific politician, let alone any specific Labour politician, as the best way to defeat fascism. Doesn't say anything about elections being the key to defeating fascism, either - just that in this specific instance voting would deny the fascists one of their strongest footholds in Britian (which, I might add, worked).

Clearly the UAF doesn't think getting out the vote is the be-all and end-all of anti-fascist organizing, otherwise they'd have stopped organizing once the election season was over last year. But that's clearly not the case, as their "Action" page shows they're still organizing meetings and activities to keep the fight going.

The more I look into the UAF, psycho, the less convinced I am that your criticisms hold any water.

[Renno]

A couple of years ago, people in Leuven (my hometown) started a small-scale campaign against a bar that allowed a fascist student group to hold their meetings in the room above the bar.
Posters were put up, with a picture of the bar and a big swastika over it and a small description of the problem.
The bar suffered some small acts of vandalism, like graffiti and stickers on the windows.

And right now, the fascists aren't welcome there anymore.

So, I think we can say, these tactics can definitely work.

And the same goes for my hometown, after a couple of visits, no more nazis

[The Idler]

Insofar as censorship of the last 40 years whether by the state, direct action or the working-class has achieved anything, British fascism probably has as much support as it did in the 1930s. Workers are quite capable of judging for themselves, working out which ideas accord with their interests – and which do not. The best condition for the emergence of socialist understanding remains free and frank discussion.

[RedSunRising]

Insofar as censorship of the last 40 years whether by the state, direct action or the working-class has achieved anything, British fascism probably has as much support as it did in the 1930s. Workers are quite capable of judging for themselves, working out which ideas accord with their interests – and which do not. The best condition for the emergence of socialist understanding remains free and frank discussion.

With fascists? With the type of people who whip racial violence that directly effects often the most vunerable working people?

[Sasha]

oh, but we are very much in favor of free and frank workingclass discussions with the fash, nothing like an exchange of physical arguments but sadly the cops have an habit of getting in the way.

[Sasha]

sigh

It would be one thing if the UAF saw the signatories listed above as somehow leaders in the fight against fascism. That would be a political dead end. But the mere fact that these politicians signed on to the UAF's founding statement is not grounds to assume that the UAF does so. A quick glance at the Barking and Dagenham campaign to unseat the BNP from the town council is a clear indication of the opposite - nowhere on their flyer (http://uaf.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/stoke_leaflet.pdf) does it say anything about voting for any specific politician, let alone any specific Labour politician, as the best way to defeat fascism. Doesn't say anything about elections being the key to defeating fascism, either - just that in this specific instance voting would deny the fascists one of their strongest footholds in Britian (which, I might add, worked).

and nowhere does it (the flyer) acknowledge anything about the problems that cause it to be one of their strongest footholds. the flyer is not only completly void of any class analysis but it even refuses to even mention the failed policy's of the politicians that drive the white workingclass (again and again) into the fascist hands.
ZOMG evIl NaZZi's!!! is all they manage....



Clearly the UAF doesn't think getting out the vote is the be-all and end-all of anti-fascist organizing, otherwise they'd have stopped organizing once the election season was over last year. But that's clearly not the case, as their "Action" page shows they're still organizing meetings and activities to keep the fight going.nope, UAF thinks the be-all and end-all of anti-fascism is recruiting, media exposure and cozying up to those who enable fascism to thrive in the first place, like with the various ANL installments they will abandon anti-fascism on the moment its not an trendy bandwagon anymore.


The more I look into the UAF, psycho, the less convinced I am that your criticisms hold any water.the more i look into your "defense", the more I'm convinced you refuse to even engage my criticisms but have an serious case of "don't confuse me with the facts when my mind is made up"

[Olentzero]

What facts?! Jesus, all you do is throw around unsubstantiated accusations; when I ask for further details and analysis (which, as I understand it, is engaging your criticisms) you respond with nothing more than a few radical-sounding generalizations. There's no critical thinking in there, and I'm surprised you manage to convince anyone with it.

Nevertheless, a thought or two. A flyer isn't the place for an in-depth analysis of why the BNP had a foothold in Barking. That's the purview of a newspaper article or a discussion at a meeting. A flyer is agitation - a few basic ideas conveyed to a large audience. And seeing as how the BNP lost all its seats in Barking over the space of four years, I'd say it was an effective tool in the overall campaign.

And this isn't some trendy thing, either. The Chris Bambery pamphlet I quoted from (either here or in the other thread) was published in 1992, and I've got Anti-Nazi League gear from round about the same time. So anti-fascist organizing has been around for quite a while. It isn't a fashion among these people and I daresay UAF (which, I just found, was established in 2003) will be around for some time to come. Sure, activity may wax and wane along with other struggles, but that's not to be confused with being politically trendy.

Finally, what's wrong with recruiting? I thought the purpose of organizing was to bring in more people. Or would that run the risk of trying to engage people who don't see the value of paintbombing a pub at 3 AM, thereby sullying your group's radical purity?

[Sasha]

The ANL disbanded several times for purely opportunistic reasons. Go read up on English (anti-)fascist history, its impossible to discuss this without an basic grasp of the continues patterns it followed.

[RedSunRising]

The ANL disbanded several times for purely opportunistic reasons. Go read up on English (anti-)fascist history, its impossible to discuss this without an basic grasp of the continues patterns it followed.

In fairness the initial ANL wasnt SO bad, but it kept getting worse at every new incarnation.

[Olentzero]

The ANL disbanded several times for purely opportunistic reasons.I only see one instance, according to Wikipedia, and that in 1981 when the last wave of British fascism collapsed. What, exactly, is opportunist about saying "They're no longer a concrete threat for now, let's step back and focus on other issues"? Simply put, the fight was no longer there; if the real fascists aren't making their move, it's next to impossible to organize people around fighting them. So either you wind the efforts up, or you start looking for new people to call fascist. That is a dangerous path to walk.

In that vein, it appears that those who opposed it - presumably for this apparent 'opportunism' - went on to form Action Front and Anti-Fascist Action, under the philosophy that like cures like: use thuggery to beat thuggery. And that point can be answered with the quote from Trotsky in Bambery's pamphlet - "adventures can only isolate a small, militant minority". Action Front and AFA are not mass organizations and it's doubtful they ever could be. UAF, because it is organizing against a concrete fascist threat and doing so in a way that actually seeks to win people to action, has much more potential in that regard.

[Sasha]

:lol:

[Olentzero]

The smug smirk of the politically bankrupt. Ring down the curtain, show's over.

[Sasha]

Nope, the laugh of someone who has better shit to do than argue with an brick wall so detached from actual reality it would not recognize it if it danced on front of him with an bright neon light proclaiming "reality". This discussion long has left the realms of earth into the absurd.
Al that needs to be said by me is said, now if you excuse me I will spend my time on more worthwhile stuff..

[Sasha]

last pointers; look up how much people AFA - England actually mobilised, you will find it was in fact more than the ANL.

[Sam_b]

British fascism probably has as much support as it did in the 1930s

Could you perhaps quantify your statement? I don't think the level is anywhere near.

[Tim Finnegan]

Nope, the laugh of someone who has better shit to do than argue with an brick wall so detached from actual reality it would not recognize it if it danced on front of him with an bright neon light proclaiming "reality". This discussion long has left the realms of earth into the absurd.
Al that needs to be said by me is said, now if you excuse me I will spend my time on more worthwhile stuff..
If Olentzero's position is so self-evidently absurd, then it really shouldn't be more than the work of a moment to smash it to bits. I, for one, would like to hear exactly where he went wrong, because so far I can't say that either case appears to be hugely less solid than the other.

[Anarchist Skinhead]

I concede as well, amount of shit this geezer is putting up here is unbelievable- and if not for AFA todays even most lefty paperselling activities would end up in bloodshed- it is precisely those "adventurists" that make it possible for UAF lot to do anythung without being mashed up to bloody pulp.
End of my part in this ridiculous discussion- besides Olentzero, how come you are such a fucking expert on UAF, UK and a history of anti-fascist activity here if you don't even fucking live here as opposedc to people that put their personal experiences here?

[Decommissioner]

I can't speak on behalf of the antifa that did this, but for me when it comes to these sort of actions, "raising awareness" and "defeating fascism" would be the last thing on my mind (I realise the futility if that were to be my goal). The goal is to piss them off, destroy their property, and feel good doing it. Their misery is justification for the deed. Maybe thats just me though.

If we has such spectacles as that here in my part of america, my friends and I would be doing the same thing, if not worse.

And for whatever it's worth, it really does work to an extent. There used to be a nazi punk scene in my city about 20 years ago. They pretty much got ran out. Their venues and hangouts destroyed, individuals terrorized out of the public sphere. Does this reform nazis? Dis it convert average people to anti-fascists and pro-working class causes? No, who cares? point is they know better now than to spread their hatred and try to have any sort of platforms to express their views. I view such actions as wholly justified and righteous.

[The Idler]

Could you perhaps quantify your statement? I don't think the level is anywhere near.
Ok pre-Olympia (1934) BUF claimed around 50,000 members. Post-Olympia BUF had about 5,000 members. Granted this was in an overall smaller British population, but contrary to popular myth this didn't change much after Cable Street in 1936.

In the 1970s, the NF claimed around 16,000 to 20,000 members.

Despite decades of anti-fascist activity pushing fascists between parliament, streets and underground tactics, the BNP at the last membership leak in October 2009 had 11,811 members (granted this is falling but probably irrespective of antifa). EDL was formed in 2009 though and probably has a few thousand members.
The idea that anti-fascist activity or censorship has impacted this is widely taken for granted, but it bears the burden of proof. Apart from wartime internment, fascist members may well have fluctuated according to international war between states and general economic cycles. Not that a rational considered strategy will be entertained by some anti-fascists who take pride in "terrorising individuals out of the public sphere". You are probably better off selling papers than bashing someone's head with a brick. In that respect the IS tradition are probably more effective!

[Anarchist Skinhead]

ha ha ha,,, good joke ;)

[Sasha]

Ok pre-Olympia (1934) BUF claimed around 50,000 members. Post-Olympia BUF had about 5,000 members. Granted this was in an overall smaller British population, but contrary to popular myth this didn't change much after Cable Street in 1936.

In the 1970s, the NF claimed around 16,000 to 20,000 members.

Despite decades of anti-fascist activity pushing fascists between parliament, streets and underground tactics, the BNP at the last membership leak in October 2009 had 11,811 members (granted this is falling but probably irrespective of antifa). EDL was formed in 2009 though and probably has a few thousand members.
The idea that anti-fascist activity or censorship has impacted this is widely taken for granted, but it bears the burden of proof. Apart from wartime internment, fascist members may well have fluctuated according to international war between states and general economic cycles. Not that a rational considered strategy will be entertained by some anti-fascists who take pride in "terrorising individuals out of the public sphere". You are probably better off selling papers than bashing someone's head with a brick. In that respect the IS tradition are probably more effective!


i think you'll find that its central to the militant anti-fascist analysis that the batle for the street is only symptom treatment, we know kicking them of the streets doesnt change anything on the amount of people ultimately willing to support the fash as longs as the root cause capitalism in not done away with.
but we also know that lobbying politicians, selling newspapers and shouting "nazi scum of our streets" while waving placards doesnt either while it does leave the fash room to terrorize communities, destroy leftist organisations, kill "undesirables".
even if there where as much people willing to support the NF as the BUF , the NF contrary to the BUF was never the same thread to be an political factor of significance, and no matter how much the NF wanted to be black-shirt stormtroopers they never came close to the paramilitary outfit the BUF was.
And even if the BNP post desertion of the streets had as much members as the old BNP, NF and the BM combined i think you all find the significant drop in racial murders, daily knife attacks, group bashing's, attacks at leftist demonstrations, pickets, papersales and music concerts and nailbomb attacks on gay-pubs and immigrant neighborhoods quite wortwhile.
i dont know if you where alive in the 80's but i remember walking with my parents remembrance demonstrations for kids only a few years older than knived to death for being black.
so yeah, i prefer my fash in the voting booth or writing angry letters to the tabloids instead of roaming the streets kicking heads in.

[RedSunRising]

In that vein, it appears that those who opposed it - presumably for this apparent 'opportunism' - went on to form Action Front and Anti-Fascist Action, under the philosophy that like cures like: use thuggery to beat thuggery. And that point can be answered with the quote from Trotsky in Bambery's pamphlet - "adventures can only isolate a small, militant minority". Action Front and AFA are not mass organizations and it's doubtful they ever could be. UAF, because it is organizing against a concrete fascist threat and doing so in a way that actually seeks to win people to action, has much more potential in that regard.

Interesting that its the Anarchists in this thread who are being authoritarian in a good way and its so called Leninists that are coming out with waffle like what I high lighted.

[The Idler]

I think you'll find the general decline in racism is due to liberals rather than a minority of militant anti-fascists going round terrorising people.

[Tim Finnegan]

I think you'll find the general decline in racism is due to liberals rather than a minority of militant anti-fascists going round terrorising people.
To be fair, there's a difference between a general decline in racism and a decline in far-right violence. The two are certainly related, but neither determines the other, as demonstrated by the fact that we got far more in the way of racist violence in Great Britain c.1978 than we did c.1948- even proportionally to the minority populations in each period- despite the fact that overt racism had in that period gone from "totally acceptable" to "not cool".

Plus, there's also the issue of the relationship between racism and acting upon racism, that is, on pursuing actively racist policies, and I would say that the British centre, at least, has moved closer to the latter in the recent years, even as the former has declined. The far-right, for various reasons, drag the political centre rightwards even as what you might call the "cultural centre" moves to the left, so it's necessary to combat them directly, rather than just trying to act as a distant counter-weight.

[black magick hustla]

I concede as well, amount of shit this geezer is putting up here is unbelievable- and if not for AFA todays even most lefty paperselling activities would end up in bloodshed- it is precisely those "adventurists" that make it possible for UAF lot to do anythung without being mashed up to bloody pulp.
End of my part in this ridiculous discussion- besides Olentzero, how come you are such a fucking expert on UAF, UK and a history of anti-fascist activity here if you don't even fucking live here as opposedc to people that put their personal experiences here?

sure and my name is tutankhamen and i have a kingdom made of chocolate

[Anarchist Skinhead]

sure and my name is tutankhamen and i have a kingdom made of chocolate

whatever makes you happy

[Means to a end]

The EDL have drunk in pretty much every pub in my local town centre (Luton) at some stage.

I don't know the full goings on with Brighton but at many times the Police send them to pubs to keep them under wraps or the EDL just head to the first pub they see.

Not that chucking some paint 'in the early hours of the morning' will do anything. (maybe try when the EDL/MFE are in the pub).

[Bronco]

The EDL have drunk in pretty much every pub in my local town centre (Luton) at some stage.

I don't know the full goings on with Brighton but at many times the Police send them to pubs to keep them under wraps or the EDL just head to the first pub they see.

Not that chucking some paint 'in the early hours of the morning' will do anything. (maybe try when the EDL/MFE are in the pub).

Seems likely, looking at the pub it's right next to the station and looks like a pretty bog-standard place, wouldnt surprise me if the choice was mainly made out of convenience

[Anarchist Skinhead]

pub had been aproached on several occasions and they clearly stated they dont mind edl drinking there- their choice then dont you think?

[Means to a end]

Thats what I thought Bronco.

Pubs before 5th Feb in Luton were approached (by the Police or EDL I don't know) to have EDL members drinking in there. At times (not saying its so in the Brighton case) I would not be surprised if the Police tell pubs they have to have the EDL in there (as it makes the Polices job easier keeping them all in one place).

But thats in Luton(and my experiences watching football up and down the country, the police request a pub for such and such fans to drink in, little the owner can do about it). Brighton seems to be different.

I also would not rule out the owner being happy taking the money (their trade has taken a right whack the last few years) not caring who it is coming from. One pub for sure made a killing on 5th Feb from the EDL. Probably one of their busiest days all years.

Or maybe they are full blown EDL members themselves, which fair enough however small the action is.

[Anarchist Skinhead]

Pub landlord either really sympathizes with EDL (one of EDL members is spotted there quite often, maybe something to do with that?) or he is happy to take their money and turn the blind eye, that way or another he might think twice next time.

[pastradamus]

Fair play to them. The pub landlord deserves such treatment for entertaining those racist scumbags.

[The_Outernationalist]

I don't exactly see how paintbombing some place is a "victory against fascism" like the way everyone is making it to be...if that's a victory against fascism, I wonder what the Liberation of Auschwitz must've been on the timeline.

[Anarchist Skinhead]

who ever said its a victory against fascism? Have you got anything useful to say or you just wanted to have one more post on your profile?

[Sam_b]

Pretty ironic you talking about useful things to say, AS.

[Means to a end]

I doubt it change much at all if we are honest. The EDL will still drink in many pubs (including the only one which was done in Luton*) up and down the country with little to no care.

*Which was not carried out by Anti Fascists, but Asian gangs who have their own agendas. The EDL still drink in there and unless you have 100 mob handed it be suicidal to take them on in there. Chuck paint over this place, and you probably get 20 more EDL members in there the next week. (along with CCTV which no doubt the landlord would be more than happy to pass over to the police if any night time activity took place).

[Anarchist Skinhead]

i suppose you have better ideas how to deal with it?

[Means to a end]

No I ain't realistically, but here at least raiding the Dulux aisle in B and Q would do absolutely nothing.

Again I stress maybe things are different in Brighton, if it stops them using this pub as a base (I am pretty sure I would just go to the next one anyway) its worthwile.