12 year old girl forced to marry in "new" Romania

[El Brujo]

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/121...5p-109244c.html (http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/121525p-109244c.html)

SIBIU, Romania - It was billed as the Gypsy wedding of the year. But it got off to a bad start yesterday when the 12-year-old princess bride stormed out of the church in protest in front of 400 guests.
"Leave me alone!" Ana Maria Cioaba screamed at reporters as her bridesmaids chanted slogans against the 15-year-old groom.

Ana Maria returned to the church minutes later and was duly married off in a ceremony performed by her father, Florin, who claims the title King of the Gypsies that his father, a rich scrap metal dealer, also held.

Afterward, the preteen bride - who said she already had turned down several marriage offers - stalked out and refused to look at the groom, who walked uncomfortably two steps behind.

"What marriage?" Ana Maria snorted after the ceremony. Her 12 bridesmaids, supporting her rebellion, chanted, "Out with Birita!" - referring to hapless groom Mihai Birita.

Though the legal age for marriage in Romania is 18, the country generally tolerates the Gypsy tradition of arranged child weddings.

The bride's family presented a dowry worth tens of thousands of dollars, and an adviser to her father said the girl would be punished, probably with a beating, for spoiling the lavish event.

[CubanFox]

Was this tolerated under Ceausescu?

[Dhul Fiqar]

They showed footage on BBC where she was actually running out of the church - and screamed at the camera and then this bridesmaid comes in front of the camera and says: "The bride is fixing her dress.. that is what I am told to say... but really she has run away..."

Then a reporter asks:

"Run away?? But why doesn't she want to get married?"

The girl looks at him with disgust and says: "Would YOU??"

Classic - I hope this fucker gets what he deserves (the so-called "king"). He was shown on TV and he is the most laughable fat little fuck I have ever seen - his "crown" is obviously made of plastic and sprayed with golden spraypaint - the rest of it is red and he wears some kind of cape. He looks like the emperor in some kind of children's cartoon version of "the emperor wears no clothes" - totally laughable in every way.

--- g.

[Sasafrás]

As far as politics, what exactly is it like in Romania? :unsure:

~ Sassy

[Loknar]

Well this is the culture, she should do her duty to her family and marry. This sort of thing has been done since time began, I dont see what the big deal is here.

[Urban Rubble]

Jesus Christ Loknar, can't you hold one fucking opinion that isn't totally laughable ?

She should do her duty to her family ? What fucking duty ? Are you really this blind ? If it was family tradition to cut your balls off at age 10 would you do it ?

Oh, I see, it's been done since time began. So has slavery, do you support that ?

[Loknar]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 2 2003, 11:17 PM
Jesus Christ Loknar, can't you hold one fucking opinion that isn't totally laughable ?

She should do her duty to her family ? What fucking duty ? Are you really this blind ? If it was family tradition to cut your balls off at age 10 would you do it ?

Oh, I see, it's been done since time began. So has slavery, do you support that ?
So what makes you the ultimate authority on what is right and what is wrong? You nor I have no right to slam these people for their cultural traditions (that probably dates back hundreds of years). Some Hindu's marry at a young age, some cultures arrange marriages from birth, but who am I to say "no stop that shit"?


The duty I speak of is her duty to carry out a marriage union with the 15 yearold for both families, as I said this kind of behavior has happened since the beginning of time.


And to answer your question, I wouldn’t even have a say in the matter if something like that happened. Sure I’d be pissed when I grew up but that is how it is I guess. You know some man in America are circumcised, should they sue the hospitals that performed the circumcision?

[timbaly]

So you think the girl should marry against her own will because of tradition? why should anyone be forced to do something so permanent as marriage against their own will? I just don't see how you see forced marriage to be justifiable.

[Rastafari]

This reminded me of one of the greater poems of all time, in my opinion (better than that goddam "Handschuh" bullshit at least)


Der Erlkönig
Wer reitet so spät durch Nacht und Wind?
Es ist der Vater mit seinem Kind;
Er hat den Knaben wohl in dem Arm,
Er faßt ihn sicher, er hält ihn warm.

Mein Sohn, was birgst du so bang dein Gesicht? -
Siehst, Vater, du den Erlkönig nicht?
Den Erlenkönig mit Kron und Schweif? -
Mein Sohn, es ist ein Nebelstreif. -

"Du liebes Kind, komm, geh mit mir!
Gar schöne Spiele spiel ich mit dir;
Manch bunte Blumen sind an dem Strand,
Meine Mutter hat manch gülden Gewand."

Mein Vater, mein Vater, und hörest du nicht,
Was Erlenkönig mir leise verspricht? -
Sei ruhig, bleibe ruhig, mein Kind;
In dürren Blättern säuselt der Wind. -

"Willst, feiner Knabe, du mit mir gehn?
Meine Töchter sollen dich warten schön;
Meine Töchter führen den nächtlichen Reihn,
Und wiegen und tanzen und singen dich ein."

Mein Vater, mein Vater, und siehst du nicht dort
Erlkönigs Töchter am düstern Ort? -
Mein Sohn, mein Sohn, ich seh es genau:
Es scheinen die alten Weiden so grau. -

"Ich liebe dich, mich reizt deine schöne Gestalt;
Und bist du nicht willig, so brauch ich Gewalt."
Mein Vater, mein Vater, jetzt faßt er mich an!
Erlkönig hat mir ein Leids getan! -

Dem Vater grausets, er reitet geschwind,
Er hält in Armen das ächzende Kind,
Erreicht den Hof mit Mühe und Not;
In seinen Armen das Kind war tot.

See, if the dad would have listened to the kid, he wouldn't be tot.
Thats like this. Goddam king of the Gypsies!!!

[Urban Rubble]

Loknar, you're missing my point. My point is not that they should stop this tradition (though I think that they should). My point is that if a 12 year old girl does not want to be forced into an arranged marriage, then she should not be forced to. I am not saying that she should be able to make ever decision in her young life, but to force her to marry someone against her will is so wrong I cannot believe you would support that.

If she is indifferent, then it's a totally different matter.

[synthesis]

Originally posted by Loknar+Oct 2 2003, 11:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Loknar @ Oct 2 2003, 11:38 PM)
Urban [email protected] 2 2003, 11:17 PM
Jesus Christ Loknar, can&#39;t you hold one fucking opinion that isn&#39;t totally laughable ?

She should do her duty to her family ? What fucking duty ? Are you really this blind ? If it was family tradition to cut your balls off at age 10 would you do it ?

Oh, I see, it&#39;s been done since time began. So has slavery, do you support that ?
So what makes you the ultimate authority on what is right and what is wrong? You nor I have no right to slam these people for their cultural traditions (that probably dates back hundreds of years). Some Hindu&#39;s marry at a young age, some cultures arrange marriages from birth, but who am I to say "no stop that shit"? [/b]
OK. So it&#39;s just a "Cultural practice" when a woman&#39;s clitoris is forcefully cut off when she is ten years old?

Just because it&#39;s a different culture, doesn&#39;t mean it&#39;s not fucking wrong.

Why should the girl have to spend the rest of her life with someone she despises just because her parents force her to?

This is bourgeois gender relations 101, Loknar. This is why the family should be abolished. Why should one girl have to essentially become a slave for the entire rest of her life just because she was born to a pair of idiots?

[Loknar]

Dryer, what is wrong with the family? I didn’t see Marx having a problem with it. Didn’t you read the manifesto? No of course not, you&#39;re some kid who wants to rebel against "the system".


Anyway, I don’t think cutting off a girls clitoris is a good thing to do, I think that act should be stopped. However marriage is different, and as I said what that girls has to do has been done millions of times. If she doesn’t like the man she can always ruin away. And let me ask you this, what choice did the boy have?

[Comrade Ceausescu]

Was this tolerated under Ceausescu?

no&#33;

[(*]

The whole thing is messed up. 12 years, too young.

I wonder what she&#39;ll look like in 6 years. :unsure:

[Non-Sectarian Bastard!]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2003, 11:06 PM
Well this is the culture, she should do her duty to her family and marry. This sort of thing has been done since time began, I dont see what the big deal is here.
You remain funny. :D

I bet that you&#39;re a really cute six year old.

Your dogma to beourgeoisie culture and old values is even worrying as funny

[Urban Rubble]

IF SHE DOESN&#39;T LIKE IT SHE COULD RUN AWAY ?

What the fuck Loknar ? Why should she be forced to abondon her life, family and everything she knows just because her idiot parents are forcing her to sign her life away ? Also, do you think running away is a viable option for a 12 year old girl ? Do you know how long she would last on the streets ?

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2003, 05:39 AM

Was this tolerated under Ceausescu?

no&#33;
LOL. Tolerated is the very anti-thesis of what he did in respect to situations such as this. He did not tolerate the gypsy way of life, he moved them into apartment blocks got them jobs.

[El Brujo]

Originally posted by Sasafrá[email protected] 3 2003, 07:05 AM
As far as politics, what exactly is it like in Romania? :unsure:

~ Sassy
Your typical corrupt, mob-ruled, post-socialist Eastern European country. The incompetent government today gives way for such abuses when they were dealt with an iron fist during Ceausescu&#39;s rule.


However marriage is different

How is it different? She is being forced to make a desicion that will affect the rest of her life.


and as I said what that girls has to do has been done millions of times.

People have been enslaved millions of times, do you approve of that?

[CubanFox]

Originally posted by Chairman Mao+Oct 3 2003, 08:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Chairman Mao @ Oct 3 2003, 08:11 PM)
[email protected] 3 2003, 05:39 AM

Was this tolerated under Ceausescu?

no&#33;
LOL. Tolerated is the very anti-thesis of what he did in respect to situations such as this. He did not tolerate the gypsy way of life, he moved them into apartment blocks got them jobs. [/b]
My apologies, I&#39;m not too well educated about Romania.

[Desert Fox]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2003, 11:06 PM
Well this is the culture, she should do her duty to her family and marry. This sort of thing has been done since time began, I dont see what the big deal is here.
I agree with Loknar, it is the tradition of her people. It has been like this for ages, so why should it stop now. We have no right to condem this event, since we aren&#39;t familiar with the romanian culture. If it is a part of the culture than she has to live by it. We can&#39;t afford to break up rules of our culture, so why should she ?

[Dhul Fiqar]

You are right guys. I think we should all also respect the long standing tradition of violent Jihad within Islam and just try and understand that when Osama bin Laden kills thousands of people that is just the way his culture is and it would be wrong to interfere.

Right? :biggrin:

--- G.

[El Brujo]

Originally posted by Dhul [email protected] 4 2003, 07:15 PM
You are right guys. I think we should all also respect the long standing tradition of violent Jihad within Islam and just try and understand that when Osama bin Laden kills thousands of people that is just the way his culture is and it would be wrong to interfere.

Right? :biggrin:

--- G.
HAHAHA, exactly. Its funny hearing neocon&#39;s go on about "tradition" when they are the antithesis of traditionalists. They support rampant expansion of western "democracy" in places in which they consider culturally "unamerican". So tell us ppl who support the wedding: how about pissing off from the Middle East and letting them run theocracy&#39;s? I am a big supporter of Qaddafiist Islamic Socialism.

[Dhul Fiqar]

Tradition is about the worst argument for anything - just because something has NOT worked for thousands of years does not mean it should be allowed to continue NOT working ;)

--- G.

[kitty44]

Originally posted by [email protected] 2 2003, 11:06 PM
Well this is the culture, she should do her duty to her family and marry. This sort of thing has been done since time began, I dont see what the big deal is here.
I guess you don&#39;t see the big deal here because you&#39;re not a 12 year old girl. It&#39;s a sick society that forces a child to get married against her will.....and I emphasize force. What about the cultures that will maim or kill the girl if she refuses to marry the groom the family chooses for her??? Are you one of those sick individuals that would consider that right??? <_<

[El Brujo]

Originally posted by Dhul F[email protected] 5 2003, 05:08 AM
Tradition is about the worst argument for anything - just because something has NOT worked for thousands of years does not mean it should be allowed to continue NOT working ;)

--- G.
Enforced dogmatic tradition is definitely counter-productive (ie: the forced wedding). What Im saying is that some moral values of local traditions can be used to interpret new ideas in a manner which they can be easier to absorb by the specific culture.

[Silent Eye]

Marx DID make statements against the family in the Manifesto, Loknar. Tradition is counter to progress in most cases. Tradition says people shouldn&#39;t have sex until they are married, but I am sure that you, Loknar will ignore this rule, unless you are surprisingly fanatic about your religion.

[Desert Fox]

Originally posted by Dhul [email protected] 4 2003, 11:15 AM
You are right guys. I think we should all also respect the long standing tradition of violent Jihad within Islam and just try and understand that when Osama bin Laden kills thousands of people that is just the way his culture is and it would be wrong to interfere.

Right? :biggrin:

--- G.
Well that is the thing , we don&#39;t know jacksh*t about the romanian culture. And don&#39;t wich laws they use and how they honour traditions. About the jihad that is a religion and not a culture. And that is a extreme wing of the religion so you can&#39;t really compare them ;)

[Dhul Fiqar]

Originally posted by El Brujo+Oct 5 2003, 05:27 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (El Brujo @ Oct 5 2003, 05:27 AM)
Dhul [email protected] 5 2003, 05:08 AM
Tradition is about the worst argument for anything - just because something has NOT worked for thousands of years does not mean it should be allowed to continue NOT working ;)

--- G.
Enforced dogmatic tradition is definitely counter-productive (ie: the forced wedding). What Im saying is that some moral values of local traditions can be used to interpret new ideas in a manner which they can be easier to absorb by the specific culture. [/b]
True, one certainly can&#39;t go around imposing one&#39;s own cultural values on people - but when force is used by elders to enforce their dogmatism on the children - that is just way too much. :(

--- G.

[Urban Rubble]

Slavery was part of early American culture, should that be allowed to continue also ?

Jesus Christ, I have always thought that just because one is a Capitalist, it doesn&#39;t mean they are complete morons. I was wrong.

[Rastafari]

alas, no response to the Erlkonig...

[Guest1]

I believe in the tradition of stringing anyone who supports this shit by the balls and watching them bleed to death.

[Goldfinger]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2003, 12:06 AM
Well this is the culture, she should do her duty to her family and marry. This sort of thing has been done since time began, I dont see what the big deal is here.
It&#39;s all clear now; when it comes to corporations, all individuals should have their rights, but when it comes to normal people, the society should determin their faith.

[Kapitan Andrey]

Stupid "cigans"&#33;&#33;&#33;

I&#39;m against that shit&#33;&#33;&#33; :angry:

[Loknar]

Originally posted by Silent [email protected] 4 2003, 10:05 PM
Marx DID make statements against the family in the Manifesto, Loknar. Tradition is counter to progress in most cases. Tradition says people shouldn&#39;t have sex until they are married, but I am sure that you, Loknar will ignore this rule, unless you are surprisingly fanatic about your religion.
I have never claimed to be a religious person. What did Marx say about the family ? Is he for the abolition of the family all together?

[synthesis]

Abolition of the family&#33; Even the most radical flare up at this infamous proposal of the Communists.

On what foundation is the present family, the bourgeois family, based? On capital, on private gain. In its completely developed form, this family exists only among the bourgeoisie. But this state of things finds its complement in the practical absence of the family among proletarians, and in public prostitution.

The bourgeois family will vanish as a matter of course when its complement vanishes, and both will vanish with the vanishing of capital.

Do you charge us with wanting to stop the exploitation of children by their parents? To this crime we plead guilty.

From the Manifesto.

[Guest1]

he is for the abolition of the notion that "family" implies "ownership" of the child. this is the case here. her parents do not own her, why should they decide her future in such a profound way if she clearly does not want it?

[Loknar]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2003, 02:13 AM

Abolition of the family&#33; Even the most radical flare up at this infamous proposal of the Communists.

On what foundation is the present family, the bourgeois family, based? On capital, on private gain. In its completely developed form, this family exists only among the bourgeoisie. But this state of things finds its complement in the practical absence of the family among proletarians, and in public prostitution.

The bourgeois family will vanish as a matter of course when its complement vanishes, and both will vanish with the vanishing of capital.

Do you charge us with wanting to stop the exploitation of children by their parents? To this crime we plead guilty.

From the Manifesto.
Abolition of the family is contrary to human nature. Communism cant stop love.

[Silent Eye]

If love never existed, of course it can. Love is simply a two level relationship, the instinctual animal side, and the "friendship" type bond. Family is something Marx was against altogether.

Loves existance can be debated. I think it easily could be another example of humans putting themselves above other "beasts" and showing themselves as superior by referring to their mating rituals in a different light. Animals are "crude" while people are "romantic."

the family is not necessarily abolished, it is simply evolved. That is the idea, at least my thinking. A Collective family perhaps?

[Guest1]

he doesn not speak literally of the abolition of the family. he speaks of the bourgeois notion of family, which is based upon the idea of ownership rather than that of mutual love and respect.

[synthesis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2003, 07:44 PM
Abolition of the family is contrary to human nature.
If by "human nature" you mean "the nature of bourgeois society", then you would be correct. You have no knowledge of some abstract human being unaffected by outside influences, therefore it is impossible to postulate what "natural humans" do.

I, like you, live in a bourgeois society and can thus comment on its corrupt institutions such as the family.

[Rastafari]

Communism cant stop love.

Hurrah&#33; You sound like the fucking beatles or somehting

[Desert Fox]

Originally posted by Che y [email protected] 7 2003, 02:13 AM
he is for the abolition of the notion that "family" implies "ownership" of the child. this is the case here. her parents do not own her, why should they decide her future in such a profound way if she clearly does not want it?
She is just influenced by the Western culture but even so, she still have obligations to her parents and to her etire family and she has to do them, if she likes them or not. I don&#39;t like the fact I have to help out my little nephew, that he won&#39;t get in trouble. I don&#39;t like him at all, but you won&#39;t be seeïng me push over a cliff or so :P

OK. My "culture" dictates that you have an "obligation" to give me a blowjob. On your knees.

This Italian sausage isn&#39;t looking too appealing right now, is it? Neither was the forced marriage for the twelve year old girl.

(As you can see, I&#39;ll play the analogy game, too.)

[Urban Rubble]

So you are comparing the temporary duty of helping you nephew to a child being forced to sign her life away by marrying someone she despises ?

Nice to see that you have some sense of reality.

[kitty44]

Originally posted by Desert Fox+Oct 8 2003, 02:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Desert Fox @ Oct 8 2003, 02:27 PM)
Che y [email protected] 7 2003, 02:13 AM
he is for the abolition of the notion that "family" implies "ownership" of the child. this is the case here. her parents do not own her, why should they decide her future in such a profound way if she clearly does not want it?
She is just influenced by the Western culture but even so, she still have obligations to her parents and to her etire family and she has to do them, if she likes them or not. I don&#39;t like the fact I have to help out my little nephew, that he won&#39;t get in trouble. I don&#39;t like him at all, but you won&#39;t be seeïng me push over a cliff or so :P [/b]
How can you possibly compare helping your nephew stay out of trouble to being forced into marriage at the age of 12??? Don&#39;t you think that 12 is a little young to be getting married??? <_<

[redstar2000]

She is just influenced by the Western culture but even so, she still have obligations to her parents and to her entire family and she has to do them, if she likes them or not.

That&#39;s my nomination for Sickest Post of 2003 at Che-Lives.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[synthesis]

Holy shit, Desert Fox, I&#39;m sorry I edited your post. I meant to click "Quote" and I hit "Edit"... I&#39;m new to this whole moderator thing. Sorry again, it was unintentional :(

[Loknar]

If that isnt abuse of power I dont know what is.

[Urban Rubble]

PURGE HIM. PURGE HIM IMMEDIATELY &#33;&#33;&#33;

[Dhul Fiqar]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 03:38 PM
If that isnt abuse of power I dont know what is.
How about having some actual intention to do something wrong? That is a definition that works a lot better for me - lol :biggrin:

--- G.

[synthesis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2003, 07:38 AM
If that isnt abuse of power I dont know what is.
His original post is still there. I PM&#39;ed him requesting that he edit my words out since I seem to be unable to reverse what I did before. I haven&#39;t gotten a response yet, but I hope he changes it back.

[Rastafari]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2003, 09:36 PM

She is just influenced by the Western culture but even so, she still have obligations to her parents and to her entire family and she has to do them, if she likes them or not.

That&#39;s my nomination for Sickest Post of 2003 at Che-Lives.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas
nah, some of the "eugenics" posts beat that easy

[Desert Fox]

Nah, I won&#39;t edit it , since I can&#39;t edit or quote posts because I see lots of html text and don&#39;t find the add reply button. But anyway we all make mistakes, that makes us human ;)

[synthesis]

Originally posted by Desert [email protected] 14 2003, 06:28 PM
Nah, I won&#39;t edit it , since I can&#39;t edit or quote posts because I see lots of html text and don&#39;t find the add reply button. But anyway we all make mistakes, that makes us human ;)
Yeah, that&#39;s exactly what I see too. Weird... sorry again.