Michael Moore On Socialism

[Rakhmetov]

WTF??? I thought he was anti-socialist and pro-Democrat??? WTF?????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neyMdjrbM18&feature=related

[Red_Devotchka]

i think micheal moore is pretty cool. havent u seen his films? sure arent anti-socialist or democrat :p

[Proukunin]

he's not a revolutionary socialist. I don't really believe.

[Rakhmetov]

he's not a revolutionary socialist. I don't really believe.


He mentions Marx several times in that youtube link, eh?

[Tommy4ever]

Isn't he somewhere between a social democrat and a democratic socialist?

Definately not revolutionary.

[Terminator X]

Moore has campaigned actively for both John Kerry and Barack Obama. I attended one of his speeches back in 2004 when he was practically begging people to vote for Kerry because he was "the most liberal Senator in the entire Congress."

Some of his ideas have merit and I enjoy most of his films, but he's no revolutionary.

[The Vegan Marxist]

Moore's definitely an interesting leftist. Just watching his documentaries, you begin seeing the transition itself from social-democrat to socialist. I believe he's still somewhere in between, but is now much closer to socialism than social-democracy. As times become much worse, he becomes more radical. And I truly believe that, soon enough, we'll see Moore as the full-fledge socialist, quoting Marxist literature, demanding an end to this bullshit like the rest of us.

[Jose Gracchus]

I think I agree with TVM, I think in my lifetime I could easily see, should some trends hold, much less intensify (for instance the tendency toward what happened in Madison, WI), Moore might be a full-fledged fellow traveler. I think his politics will always kind of be confused, based on his own background and position. I don't know if he'll ever be much of a go-to for real class politics. Of course, we shouldn't be looking for "go-to"'s on real class politics.

[IndependentCitizen]

He's not a revolutionary socialist. But the thing is, his media attention and documentaries hopefully attract people to question society, and capitalism and eventually turn them to look at new alternatives.

I admittedly cried watching Sicko, because it made me realise how precious the NHS is.

[Robocommie]

Why do I always read the comments? Damnit.

[Robocommie]

Moore has campaigned actively for both John Kerry and Barack Obama. I attended one of his speeches back in 2004 when he was practically begging people to vote for Kerry because he was "the most liberal Senator in the entire Congress."

Some of his ideas have merit and I enjoy most of his films, but he's no revolutionary.

That was six years ago. A lot can change in six years. Six years ago, I was getting excited about John Kerry.

[L.A.P.]

Capitalism: A Love Story turned me to leftism hence becoming a Marxist.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Mentioning Marx doesn't mean a great deal. Hugo Chavez claimed to be both a Trotskyite and a Maoist in the space of a few months if I recall correctly. Seriously, I've heard Labour party members reference pre-Marx utopian socialists, it means nothing.

He's not a revolutionary until he advocates revolution. So far he has only spoken of reform and made it sound revolutionary.

[Rakhmetov]

[QUOTE=Spawn of Stalin;2112565]Mentioning Marx doesn't mean a great deal. Hugo Chavez claimed to be both a Trotskyite and a Maoist in the space of a few months if I recall correctly. Seriously, I've heard Labour party members reference pre-Marx utopian socialists, it means nothing.QUOTE]

It may mean "nothing" to you but to the millions of Venezuelans--- who rushed out to demand Hugo Chavez be restored to power after he was overthrown and kidnapped --- Chavez's rhetoric is a lot more than just "nothing."

[Spawn of Stalin]

The fact that people support him has nothing to do with the topic. I am not denying that most poor Venezuelans love him. I am merely stating the truth: that name dropping is wack as fuck.

[Terminator X]

That was six years ago. A lot can change in six years. Six years ago, I was getting excited about John Kerry.

Explain Moore's breathlessness for Obama 3 years ago then.

Look, I don't mind Moore, but the bottom line is that he's a champion of whatever new "liberal" candidate that the Democratic Party trots out every 4 years. It's the same thing every election cycle, and then he wrings his hands over why they don't end up being as "progressive" as he had hoped. This is also why right-wingers end up associating liberals with "socialism" and "communism" - he practices something entirely different than he preaches.

If Moore were to actually come out and say that working people should break with the Democratic Party, he'd earn a lot more of my respect.

[CleverTitle]

Why do I always read the comments? Damnit.
I always come close, then I pause and realize what a horrible mistake I'm about to make.

[Robocommie]

I always come close, then I pause and realize what a horrible mistake I'm about to make.

It's kinda like looking at a car accident. You realize it's dumb to look, because if there's anything to see you're not really going to want to see it, but you look anyway...

[Commissar Rykov]

Capitalism: A Love Story turned me to leftism hence becoming a Marxist.

It pretty much cemented me into the Left.

[DaringMehring]

Moore is somewhat unique in that he has the knack for reaching people who are otherwise far from socialism -- "heartland" types. He seems to know them well, and he backs himself up with the Bible and the Founders. Regardless of his precise politics, he does good work for socialism.

His line about "not getting hung up on terms" is incisive as well. What matters is getting to socialism, not Socialism -- achieving our ideals, not winning the battle over some historical term.

[Lucretia]

Explain Moore's breathlessness for Obama 3 years ago then.

Look, I don't mind Moore, but the bottom line is that he's a champion of whatever new "liberal" candidate that the Democratic Party trots out every 4 years. It's the same thing every election cycle, and then he wrings his hands over why they don't end up being as "progressive" as he had hoped. This is also why right-wingers end up associating liberals with "socialism" and "communism" - he practices something entirely different than he preaches.

If Moore were to actually come out and say that working people should break with the Democratic Party, he'd earn a lot more of my respect.

This pretty much sums it up for me. All bark and no bite.

[Robocommie]

Moore is somewhat unique in that he has the knack for reaching people who are otherwise far from socialism -- "heartland" types. He seems to know them well, and he backs himself up with the Bible and the Founders. Regardless of his precise politics, he does good work for socialism.


That's exactly how I feel about him. I remember watching Capitalism: A Love Story, and when it came to the bit where the folks from Peoria were losing their home (this hit home for me because I live rather near Peoria, and it's literally the American heartland) and the father stated outright, "Sooner or later there's gotta be a war between the folks who have everything and the folks who have nothing." It solidified my convictions even further, and made me hope that there was a real chance for a genuine class war in America.

[Bardo]

I watched Capitalism..... and Sicko around the time I started reading Marx, Chomsky, Goldman ect. The movies pretty much put a real, modern visualization to the issues I was thinking about during this period of my life.

[Rafiq]

Moore is somewhat unique in that he has the knack for reaching people who are otherwise far from socialism -- "heartland" types. He seems to know them well, and he backs himself up with the Bible and the Founders. Regardless of his precise politics, he does good work for socialism.

His line about "not getting hung up on terms" is incisive as well. What matters is getting to socialism, not Socialism -- achieving our ideals, not winning the battle over some historical term.


Karl Marx disagrees.

It's not about seeing socialism as a general state of affairs we must "achieve". Socialism is a process, a process, that of which involves the abolishing of certain things, like the process of water flowing.

More importantly, it's about bringing the working class to power. Remember, we are materialists. The workers must take power through whatever name they like, socialism, communism, social freedom, whatever.

Marx only "advocated" socialism because it was very popular during his time. Socialism used to be very utopian and idealist before Marx. So, 'socialism' is really just a tool for the working class to crush the enemy ;)

[Tim Finnegan]

That's exactly how I feel about him. I remember watching Capitalism: A Love Story, and when it came to the bit where the folks from Peoria were losing their home (this hit home for me because I live rather near Peoria, and it's literally the American heartland) and the father stated outright, "Sooner or later there's gotta be a war between the folks who have everything and the folks who have nothing." It solidified my convictions even further, and made me hope that there was a real chance for a genuine class war in America.
Yeah, that bit seemed really significant to me. That is, as you say, a functioning description of heightened class conflict, and if that can be expressed in terms which not only reach but encourage sympathies in those who are usually far removed from such ideas, it's no bad thing. Between that sequence and the detailing workers cooperatives, I think that there really was something in that film that goes beyond a liberal critique of finance capitalism. An unpolished market socialism is still socialism, however further we may want to bring people.

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

Between that sequence and the detailing workers cooperatives, I think that there really was something in that film that goes beyond a liberal critique of finance capitalism.

Not to mention the Vegas-style interpretation of the Internationale over the final credits.

I would say Moore's what the Maos (the real ones) used to call a "positive Romantic." His politics is all from the gut, and deliberately so, but his gut's in the right place.