The Venus Project

[Die Rote Fahne]

Okay, I've heard some people mention it...

What the hell is it? Can someone explain it and maybe give it a Marxist analysis?

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Utopian socialism basically. I think the plan goes like this:
1. Build cool city where technology is so advanced people don't have to do anything and everything is shared in common and there is no law.
2. Open it up as a theme park so everybody can see the glory of the Venus Project.
3. People see glory of the Venus Project so the whole world turns into a bunch of these cities.

Did I mention the cool technology and how everything is powered by green technology?

[Magón]

Take from it what you will.

http://www.thevenusproject.com/

[Robespierre Richard]

It was narrowly defeated in the North American Civil War of 2036-2044 fought between the Venus Project's autistic cyborgs and the Anarcho-Stalinist Resistance Collective after one of the cyborgs was captured and reprogrammed to be JS-1000, The Stalinator.

Seriously though, it's just another technocracy thing except American and crypto-right wing with ties (via membership) to 9/11 truth and Ron Paul.

[CommunityBeliever]

This is a project to build an environmentally friendly theme park that a bunch of bourgeoisie scumbags can play around in.

[Manic Impressive]

crypto-right wing
Explain?

I'd say they're technocratic utopian socialists who lack a class perspective and have no plan for revolution. Essentially they want to destroy capitalism and implement a gift economy so I don't think they're too bad.

[The Douche]

Explain?

I'd say they're technocratic utopian socialists who lack a class perspective and have no plan for revolution. Essentially they want to destroy capitalism and implement a gift economy so I don't think they're too bad.

Because of their associations with the 9/11 truth movement, and conspiracy theories. Also, the zeitgeist movement/venus project (remember, they're the same) was pro-Ron Paul in the 2008 election.

[RED DAVE]

Because of their associations with the 9/11 truth movement, and conspiracy theories. Also, the zeitgeist movement/venus project (remember, they're the same) was pro-Ron Paul in the 2008 election.Some of our friendly neighborhood technocrats were/are involved with this all this through the technocracy organization EOS.

http://www.eoslife.eu/

Search "Venus Project."

RED DAVE

[The Douche]

Some of our friendly neighborhood technocrats were/are involved with this all this through the technocracy organization EOS.

http://www.eoslife.eu/

Search "Venus Project."

RED DAVE

I'm sure they are, I've never really understood how technocracy fits in with the revolutionary left.

[Astarte]

Essentially they are all about extremely high tech computerized machines running every aspect of production - it would result in a high-tech technocratic intelligentsia running society as a kind of new class since they would be the only ones who knew how to build, repair and operate their Venusian "savior-machines".

[RED DAVE]

I'm sure they are, I've never really understood how technocracy fits in with the revolutionary left.Neither do I. We have had huge threads about this, one of which resulted in the most prominent technocrat around here taking his leave.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/technocracy-some-issues-t153169/index.html?t=153169&highlight=technocracy

RED DAVE

[Q]

I'm sure they are, I've never really understood how technocracy fits in with the revolutionary left.


Here is where the American soviets can produce real miracles. "Technocracy" can come true only under communism, when the dead hands of private property rights and private profits are lifted from your industrial system. The most daring proposals of the Hoover commission on standardization and rationalization will seem childish compared to the new possibilities let loose by American communism.

- Leon Trotsky (http://www.newyouth.com/archives/classics/trotsky/if_america_should_go_communist.html)

I believe this is a far better position towards technocracy then Troll Dave's "ZOMG THESE ARE CRYPTO FASCISTS, BAN BAN BAN!!!!111".

I agree with A Revolutionary Tool in post 2 though that the Venus Project itself is really quite utopian socialist. Coming up with grand schemes to change the world is hardly a new idea. It exactly doesn't tackle the whole problem of the basic problem within our society - capitalism - and how to go from here to that society. That said, the Venus Project can give us good ideas and inspiration to get an idea of how communism is going to look like.

[Astarte]

- Leon Trotsky (http://www.newyouth.com/archives/classics/trotsky/if_america_should_go_communist.html)

I believe this is a far better position towards technocracy then Troll Dave's "ZOMG THESE ARE CRYPTO FASCISTS, BAN BAN BAN!!!!111".

I agree with A Revolutionary Tool in post 2 though that the Venus Project itself is really quite utopian socialist. Coming up with grand schemes to change the world is hardly a new idea. It exactly doesn't tackle the whole problem of the basic problem within our society - capitalism - and how to go from here to that society. That said, the Venus Project can give us good ideas and inspiration to get an idea of how communism is going to look like.

To me, after watching some of their videos, seeing the Jacque's guy's architectural plans, and mulling over it, it seems like the Venus project is an infrastructural engineers' or technicians's movement. Just seems like they are out of touch with the the actual struggle of the working people and more concerned with physically designing a Utopia with high tech machinist's running society and propagating "9/11 Truth" conspiracy theories. IE Turning the role of the vanguard over from the working classes to engineer technocrats (who seem pretty petty bourgeois, if not altogether bourgeois) is against the interests of the proletariat.

[RED DAVE]

- Leon Trotsky (http://www.newyouth.com/archives/classics/trotsky/if_america_should_go_communist.html)

I believe this is a far better position towards technocracy then Troll Dave's "ZOMG THESE ARE CRYPTO FASCISTS, BAN BAN BAN!!!!111".
Here is where the American soviets can produce real miracles. "Technocracy" can come true only under communism, when the dead hands of private property rights and private profits are lifted from your industrial system.First of all, I have never asked for Technocracy or any individual to be banned, so get you facts straight.

Second, Trotsky was not dealing with Technocracy as a political movement but with a set of ideas. After he wrote the above, Technocracy developed some decidedly fascistic tendencies. In addition, its entire theory of capitalism, including its analysis of capitalism as a "price system" rather than as a system of commodity production, and its absence of any political agency, places it very far from revolutionary politics. Read the threads. There's a lot more.


I agree with A Revolutionary Tool in post 2 though that the Venus Project itself is really quite utopian socialist. Coming up with grand schemes to change the world is hardly a new idea. It exactly doesn't tackle the whole problem of the basic problem within our society - capitalism - and how to go from here to that society. That said, the Venus Project can give us good ideas and inspiration to get an idea of how communism is going to look like.The essence of socialism is workers control of the economy on a national and global scale. Any resemblance between utopian ideas and revolutionary socialism is practically an accident.

And what is being ignored is the unsavory political connections of the Venus Project. How about some commentary about this?

RED DAVE

[Phonic]

The Venus Project and the Zietgiest movement are utopian socialists, very similar to the very first socialists who were almost always technocratic, they have no class struggle idea's really, i suppose the cloest socialist ideology would be something like Parecon or Star Trekism

[Phonic]

And what is being ignored is the unsavory political connections of the Venus Project. How about some commentary about this?



True, they are linked to Ron Paul, NWO conspiracy theories and the 9/11 truth movement (the latter I am undecided on), I can also imagine some of them being member of the american militia movement.

[The Douche]

I would just like to point out that automated production is not technocracy. It would seem that Trotsky is talking about automation (a core component of technocracy) and not technocracy as a movement/political theory.

[Manic Impressive]

Because of their associations with the 9/11 truth movement, and conspiracy theories. Also, the zeitgeist movement/venus project (remember, they're the same) was pro-Ron Paul in the 2008 election.
What is right wing about thinking that 9/11 was an inside job? There is a whole portion of the right wing who promote an agenda behind it but then you have many on the left who also support the "truth" campaign George Galloway is one that springs to mind and I've heard many people defend him on here. I haven't actually seen the first zeitgeist film apparently it had loads of conspiracy type stuff but they seem to have left that behind them now. As for Ron Paul I don't really know much about him except he wants to ban abortion but hasn't he also spoke out against centralized banking? I think that's why they supported him.

When did ending capitalism and introducing a gift economy become crypto right wing? Did I miss a meeting or something?

[RadioRaheem84]

I'd say they're technocratic utopian socialists who lack a class perspective and have no plan for revolution. Essentially they want to destroy capitalism and implement a gift economy so I don't think they're too bad.
They're technocrats who reject the class analysis, not lack it.

Its what always happens when political parties in the US fear of being red baited.

"We're not socialists, this is different".

[The Douche]

9/11 truth is the domain of the populist right in the us. Not to mention it's flat out nutty. Ron Paul radically defends property rights (he seeks to repeal civil rights legislation in the name of property rights), he opposes centralized banking in favor of privatizing the federal reserve (this obviously anti-socialist) and wants to return the country to the gold standard.

The zeitgeist fils were also academically dishonest.

[Spawn of Stalin]

Manic, it's guilt by association I guess. I'm no technocrat, but honestly I think a lot of this stuff where people connect a bunch of dots and come to ridiculous conclusions is just junk. So some Ron Paul supporters are technocrats, does that make all technocrats Ron Paul supporters? Nope. Does it damage the credibility of the Venus Project? Nope, just the credibility of a handful of its advocates. Plenty of technocracy sympathisers here who are not right wingers. And the 9/11 truth/Ron Paul connection is just as dumb...True: 9/11 conspiracy theories are mostly ridiculous. False: All 9/11 truthers are reactionary.

[The Douche]

And I bet the democratic party has some people who really card about the working class and are pro-socialist in it...so what?

The Venus project is comprised mainly of people who support right wing and free market politics.

[Phonic]

And I bet the democratic party has some people who really card about the working class and are pro-socialist in it...so what?

The Venus project is comprised mainly of people who support right wing and free market politics.

Given that they completely support gift economics, giving up property, money and inequality..what exactly is your evidence that they are in fact free market advocates?

Everything they say rings of utopian socialism, they just arn't really part of our movemetn and tend to accociate with populist rightists.

[DRGonzo]

Its funny:
Most people here spend most of their time moaning about class struggle and masturbating over abstract notions.
When someone finally comes over with a tangible plan you all berate it whilst reverting back to your anachronistic scripture...

The Venus Project is going no-where - as of this month it has severed its ties with The Zeitgeist Movement and lost the majority of the 500k members of the zeitgeist movement. This now means that TZM can design its own transitional plan and branch out into more productive methods of reaching this goal. This is an important change because now everyone has the ability to influence the outcome rather than just Jacque Fresco and I don't think the movement has enough learned leftists (such as yourselves) to help facilitate this transition.

To address a few of the points raised here (in regards to TZM, not the Venus Project):
1. We do not give two shits about who did 9/11
2. Ron Paul is a douche bag.
3. Class struggle does not play a large role in TZM because we do not believe in an "us" and "them" mentality - further still we believe that the bourgeoisie has as much to gain from such a system as the average proletariate so theres no point pitting them against each other.
4. Class stratification could not occur between the technicians and average folk because we are advocating a systematic aproach to the allocation of resources and so there would not be disparity. Further still, technicians do not "decide" things. policy and project suggestions are submitted in the same way a scientific journal is so that ideas are chosen for their objecive value.

I recomend that you watch "Zeitgeist:Moving Foward" before you make assumptions about what we believe in. If you can't be arsed to watch all 3hrs of it then just watch it 1:35hrs into it - that deals with the resource allocation.

[Spawn of Stalin]

we believe that the bourgeoisie has as much to gain from such a system as the average proletariate so theres no point pitting them against each other.

Could you please explain this for me? If such a system were to be fair towards the people who are now (today) workers, how would the current bourgeoisie be able to profit from a more just system?

[DRGonzo]

There are many underlying problems in capitalism that hinder productivity and waste resources - usually due to the competetive nature of capitalism - you probably know more examples than I do. If resources are managed efficiently then the scarcity of resources should be neglegible for the most part (obviously mansions made of gold and the like would not be feasable but all that is accounted for in the resource allocation system) and so the attainment of previously scarce resources would be much easier.


Technology would be by default open-source allowing for a faster pace of innovation. Interchangable parts would allow for more customization, less waste and ultimately optimum utility derived from the materials used.


You are the product of the socioeconomic environment you are raised in - no disparity / no poverty = (almost) no crimes


The management of resources will take into account the environment and so the world will smell a bit nicer than it does now.


Even at the current state of technology, automation can replace over half of current jobs - and so the work load for everyone will be lowered considerably.

Unless you picture every member of the bourgeoisie as a Gordon Gecko wannabie i'm sure you agree that it will be better in the long run for everyone.

The only problem i've encountered when talking to free-market enthusiasts is that they really don't like the idea of renting/using a yatch (or other luxury item thats not feasable for mass production) for a few days because most of the value of a yatch comes from its social value...the "look i have a yatch" factor which is predominantly based on the heirachical structure of our socioeconomic system anyway.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

There are many underlying problems in capitalism that hinder productivity and waste resources -

Technology would be by default open-source allowing for a faster pace of innovation. Interchangable parts would allow for more customization, less waste and ultimately optimum utility derived from the materials used.

Okay, what do you mean by "productivity" What are the criteria? "Productivity" under capitalism and socialism are radically different things.Under capitalism there is production based on profit, for exchange value rather than use value.There is no meaningful way of comparing capitalist and socialist "productivity".

Human needs can more easily be fulfilled when they are not based on production of commodities for monetary exchange. That's the fundamental problem. I think you may not be considering these impediments to a better economy, all of which are hard wired into the capitalist mode of production.

Its not that a better system would be good for both the bourgeois who own the means of production and everyone else, its rather that the bourgeois who own the means of production and the working class have interests which are antithetical by their very definition. To but it bluntly, property is theft.

When the system implodes, a segment of the bourgeois will come over to the working class, Uncle Karl said this in the Manifesto. The answer though lies not in finding a solution satisfying to all classes, this by definition is impossible, but rather in abolishing the very conditions which create class society.To do this will require a struggle. Ruling classes never give up control willingly.

I think any project which considers an alternative future can be worthwhile. I don't condemn the ZGM. Just the same, it seems like an updated version of the classic 19th century utopian socialists. The visionary aspect is worthwhile and very important. I fully admit I haven't seen the films or read that much ZGM literature. I could be wrong. It does seem to me though ,with all due respect, much like reinventing the wheel. I might respectfully suggest you read "Socialism, Utopian and Scientific" by Friedrich Engels.






You are the product of the socioeconomic environment you are raised in - no disparity / no poverty = (almost) no crimes


Agree. What is the cause of disparity though? I would see it as embedded within class society.


Even at the current state of technology, automation can replace over half of current jobs - and so the work load for everyone will be lowered considerably.


It already has, automation has dramatically increased in recent decades but the conditions for the working class everywhere are much worse than they were 30 years ago. Under capitalism the result of a job being replaced is unemployment, i'e. a struggle for physical survival, rather than time for creativity and human fulfillment.Decades ago, in the 1950s or 60s a major meme for futurists was that "because of increased automation leisure time would be a major problem/challenge for the society of the year 2000". Reading futurist literature of that period can be interesting. Now its 2011 and people are working 60 hours a week just to keep their house. Marxists can explain why this is.



Unless you picture every member of the bourgeoisie as a Gordon Gecko wannabie i'm sure you agree that it will be better in the long run for everyone.



They don't think so. Every time in history when the power of the bourgeois has been challenged, every time socialism was attempted, it has been viscously attacked.Any attempt to change the capitalist mode of production has ended in a blood bath. Russia, Spanish Civil War, Paris Commune, Indonesia, Chile, Congo, South Africa, East Timor, Angola, Mozambique, Central America, etc.Socialism is extremely important for any progress of the human race but it has to be fought for (and this from someone who personally abhors violence herself). Its not gonna come on a silver platter.

At the risk of sounding cheesy, I'd be willing to make a deal. I can promise to engage w/Zeitgeist literature, I'll watch the films, read the literature, etcd. if you promise to read this

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/index.htm

[RadioRaheem84]

If you totally reject class analysis DRGONZO, like I assumed the TVP does, then you clearly care not to change society, because many leftist movements want to change the social relations in production in order to further change society, not the other way around (change society to change social relations).

[The Douche]

From the horse's mouth, TVP is not a working class political project, it is, in fact, opposed to class politics.

Thank you, goodnight.

[Die Rote Fahne]

What is right wing about thinking that 9/11 was an inside job? There is a whole portion of the right wing who promote an agenda behind it but then you have many on the left who also support the "truth" campaign George Galloway is one that springs to mind and I've heard many people defend him on here. I haven't actually seen the first zeitgeist film apparently it had loads of conspiracy type stuff but they seem to have left that behind them now. As for Ron Paul I don't really know much about him except he wants to ban abortion but hasn't he also spoke out against centralized banking? I think that's why they supported him.

When did ending capitalism and introducing a gift economy become crypto right wing? Did I miss a meeting or something?

Galloway isn't a truther... ::facepalm::

[Zav]

Their problem lies in the fact that cities are harder to sustain than villages, and that all of the technology doesn't exist yet.

[CommunityBeliever]

People see glory of the Venus Project so the whole world turns into a bunch of these cities.

I am sure if their theme parks posed any threat to capitalist system at all they would slander them and lie about them like they are doing to our comrades in Cuba.


how technocracy fits in with the revolutionary left

Leftism is based upon egalitarianism and therefore equality for all people regardless of race, religion, ethnicity, class, or even technical merit. On the other hand technocracy is based upon the creation of a technical elite to rule the "stupid masses." That is totally non-egalitarian and not in any way leftist.

[Arilou Lalee'lay]

I think a lot of the Zeitgeisters are utopian anarchist-esque, but afraid to call themselves leftists because the evil of communism is unquestionable.

They're utopian to a degree far exceeding the narodniks and most utopian socialists. Chernyshevsky and the like saw giant glass cities with super wheat and volunteerism as something to look forward to in the distant future, once both social problems and technological problems had been solved. They did realize the importance of solving the social problems however, and what they were: private ownership of the means of production, inheritance, etc.

Most Zeitgeist people I've talked to agree with leftists about some critiques of capitalism, but make a non-sequitur jump to unverified post-scarcity economics in response. Some blame copyright law for all the ills of society. I know quite a few people working to re-develop all of humanity's technology and put it under the GPL, with the theory that smart enough engineers could then achieve a post-scarcity gift economy in a matter of years. They don't like to talk about what sort of "transitional society" might exist during those years. So far their grand success is a couple acres with an open source tractor on it and a barely functional code repository (factor E farm and SKDB, respectively).

They're still a very interesting group, because they highlight what contradictions and flaws in capitalism are easily detectable by well educated proletarians in the applied sciences. We'd do damn well to take the open source issue and make it our own. The amount of right libertarians on Slashdot is downright depressing, and it actually stems from noticing real problems in bourgeois government. They hit a brick wall after that due to the messed up education system. The purpose of our history classes is entirely to hide history, and without history, the empirical basis for a scientific socialism or any logical approach to answering "what is to be done?", they come up with theories that seem bizarre to us, and not quite right to them. This settling for not-quite-right theory and fuzzy logic is probably why so many of them also get into conspiracy theories (of the crazy variety).

Does anyone here know how valid the economic hit man stuff in the first video was? That seemed pretty accurate and interesting to me, but my knowledge of the events they talked about (Allende, the Shah of Iran, etc.) is lacking. Tbh I don't know or care about whether they're right about the federal reserve conspiracy, that's something a (Marxist) economist could probably figure out in half an hour though.

Also I don't mean to conflate the Zeitgeisters, open source fanatics, and post-scarcity anarchists, it it seemed like I was doing that above.

[Q]

The Venus Project is going no-where - as of this month it has severed its ties with The Zeitgeist Movement and lost the majority of the 500k members of the zeitgeist movement.
Why did this happen?


This now means that TZM can design its own transitional plan and branch out into more productive methods of reaching this goal. This is an important change because now everyone has the ability to influence the outcome rather than just Jacque Fresco and I don't think the movement has enough learned leftists (such as yourselves) to help facilitate this transition.
I'm happy TZM is open to critical constructive views.


3. Class struggle does not play a large role in TZM because we do not believe in an "us" and "them" mentality - further still we believe that the bourgeoisie has as much to gain from such a system as the average proletariate so theres no point pitting them against each other.
I think Lenina Rosenweg made some very important points in refuting this mistaken position. I'll add to this that class struggle is not a political position or dogma, it is a fact of life. Marxism is not about imposing some political line upon the working class, it is about showing the class their own politics, forming the class as a collective entity and forming it as a potential ruling class. Only after the working class takes power, can we build a classless society as the ruling working class (the vast majority of society) negates itself. Only under communism can we implement the proposals of the Venus Project.


From the horse's mouth, TVP is not a working class political project, it is, in fact, opposed to class politics.
The "horse's mouth" talks about the Zeitgeist Movement, not the Venus Project and indicates it is open for critical peer thought.

[CommunityBeliever]

We'd do damn well to take the open source issue and make it our own.

It is our own. Just look at Nova OS (http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9127882/Software_libre_Cuba_develops_own_free_Linux_called _Nova_), EcuRed (http://www.ecured.cu/index.php/EcuRed:Enciclopedia_cubana), and all the other projects we have created.


Does anyone here know how valid the economic hit man stuff in the first video was?

Actually that "economic hit-men stuff" which describes the mischief that the U.S is constantly conducting, is what helped to eliminate my complacency and accept violent revolution.

[The Douche]

The "horse's mouth" talks about the Zeitgeist Movement, not the Venus Project and indicates it is open for critical peer thought.

TZM is even worse than TVP, I would like to see how one could honestly claim "we're not conspiracy theorists" when their movement's basis is a idiotic movie half about 9/11 conspiracy, and half an intellectually dishonest attack on the supposed existentence (or non-existence) of Jesus Christ, neither of which have anything to do with the struggle for communism.

An open rejection of class struggle means they are just like any other non-communist political project, there may be some people involved who are potentially leftists, there are people involved who are not/who are anti-communist, but anybody who is going to be down for revolution, is going to leave that movement, and join the communist movement. And both of these "organizations" or "movements" (they really aren't either since all they have is a message board and some movies, they have 0 organized activist presence, which is why you end up with their supporters at anti-war rallies holding signs about 9/11, or privatizing the federal reserve, or voting for Ron Paul). They pander to the loony right, and interest some naive proto-socialists...big deal...

[DRGonzo]

I think of productivity in terms of how much you can get out in relation to how much you put in. Thats probably a more basic idea then what you think of but in the "zeitgeist system" global supply and demand is a factor that is taken into account when determining what is economically and environmentally feasable for production. So higher productivity = more goods feasable for production....maybe i meant productive efficiency or something like that.


Of course class struggle plays a key part in all of this but whats the point of going ape shit about it. Slogans like "workers of the world unite" (i'm not sure what leftist kids say on the bloc these days) only aid in polarising the classes and makes us look like we think all of the bourgeoise are 2 dimensional antagonists in some kind of epic war. Most of them care about humanity on the whole and so its just a matter of showing them a better solution, not alienating them. Further still, the transitional plan involves creating a "test" city to show it works and to fine-tune the idea. If this is planned out correctly then there is no need to "overthrow" the bourgeoise. This economic system only functions if people take part in it - if we can provide an alternative way of life that is better then people will join it. We are doing pretty well already - Peter Joseph has
appeared on Russia Today several times, The 3rd film is shown on TV in greece ocassionally and TVP were invited to some UN conference. And you can't deny that it is more accessible to people than most leftist organisations. In two years it has gained half a million members - you show me a leftist movement that has that kind of trend.

TZM currently recommends that members get off the grid - this is an effective tactic in reducing our dependancy on the current economic system whilst also reducing the functionality of the current system. I'm not sure exactly how you all plan on bringing your respective ideologies about but I assume gaining "critical mass" is an important part of it. Leftist fail here because you use abstract notions and complex theories to explain things that really shouldn't be that hard to explain. People want to see a thought out plan before they jump on board with any radical ideology and thats what we want to do.



The Venus Project split from TZM because they felt that it no longer had any say in the direction of the movement. Which basically means Jacque Fresco, who has designed the first city, is worried that his work, which he is so firmly attached to, may not see fruition due to the grass-roots nature of TZM. Plus TVP want to make a ridiculous million $ movie which they dont even need.

Cmoney - we have chapters in most countries with either weekly or monthly meetings. The first film which you are takling about is not relevant to the movement - watch "Zeitgeist:Moving Foward".

[The Douche]

Class collaboration, abstract futurism, neither left nor right. Yeah, great.

I have seen all of your movies. Your movement should not be talking about complex theories, I could understand the foundations of communism when I was a child, I still don't understand what exactly it is you want, probably because it makes no sense.

And again, you have zero activist presence, and the reason for this is that you don't have an active politics. You make movies and you talk about them, cool. I would ask where are you in the struggles against austerity, but its not your struggle, cause you're not a working class movement, not a socialist movement, not a communist movement, and not a revolutionary leftist movement.

[DRGonzo]

Doesn't sound like you want to understand it to be honest.

[The Douche]

I have little desire to understand anti-communist ideologies, unless they pose a threat to the communist movement (i.e. capitalism, imperialism, fascism), your movement is a marginal anti-communist idea which will fade into obscurity. I'm not real worried about it.

Its a bunch of people who came out of the conspiracy theory/Ron Paul fringe, picked up some ideas from the anarchist faq, and a few from technocracy, combined it with their lingering ideas of classical liberalism, and the pathetic asthetics of the conspiracy subculture, to make a couple movies.


Big fucking deal...

[DRGonzo]

getting rid of money, removing borders, removing property rights, sharing resources equally, removing classes

How is this anti-communist?


I've said we don't give a shit about who did 9/11 - even if it was Bill Murray it wouldnt change a thing about the zeitgeist movement.

Youtube "Zeitgeist:Moving Foward" - that is a true representation of what we want.

[The Douche]

You openly stated you want class colaboration. That is an anti-communist position.

Again, I have seen (unfortunately) all your goofy little films.

How about you show me something that TZM has actually done. Not a movie, not a showing of the movie, not an event where they handed the movie out, not an event where they talked about the movie. Show me something where TZM has done something positive for the working class, or something to help contribute to the working class's emancipation...

[CommunityBeliever]

if people take part in it - if we can provide an alternative way of life that is better then people will join it. Cuba has already provided an alternative way of life - the dictatorship of the proletariat. We don't need a bunch of bourgeoisie theme parks.


TZM currently recommends that members get off the grid - this is an effective tactic in reducing our dependancy on the current economic system whilst also reducing the functionality of the current system.Going off the grid is only an option for the bourgeoisie and the petit-bourgeoisie.

[Manic Impressive]

Of course class struggle plays a key part in all of this but whats the point of going ape shit about it. Slogans like "workers of the world unite" (i'm not sure what leftist kids say on the bloc these days) only aid in polarising the classes and makes us look like we think all of the bourgeoise are 2 dimensional antagonists in some kind of epic war. Most of them care about humanity on the whole and so its just a matter of showing them a better solution, not alienating them.
:lol: This is why I call you Utopian. It is fundamentally against their class interests to end capitalism. Some may care about human suffering and do charity work or donate a little of their money to good causes or whatever but asking them to give up their control over the means of production and their control over society is not in their best interests and asking them nicely by showing them a better way is just laughable.


Further still, the transitional plan involves creating a "test" city to show it works and to fine-tune the idea. If this is planned out correctly then there is no need to "overthrow" the bourgeoise.
You say yourself that technologies that are available to us are not implemented due to being unprofitable or reducing profit in other areas. So why would a super city change that? I remember hearing about a tyre invented in the 80's that lets air in and out so it won't puncture. If all cars were fitted with this tyre it would have saved many lives in road traffic accidents but wasn't implemented because it would destroy the tyre industry by cutting the demand for new tyres. It's exactly the same principle the new super city would save lives, be more efficient, provide a better quality of life for all but until you end the profit motive it will be crushed and buried and nobody will even remember it.


This economic system only functions if people take part in it - if we can provide an alternative way of life that is better then people will join it. We are doing pretty well already - Peter Joseph has
appeared on Russia Today several times, The 3rd film is shown on TV in greece ocassionally and TVP were invited to some UN conference. And you can't deny that it is more accessible to people than most leftist organisations. In two years it has gained half a million members - you show me a leftist movement that has that kind of trend.

TZM currently recommends that members get off the grid - this is an effective tactic in reducing our dependancy on the current economic system whilst also reducing the functionality of the current system. I'm not sure exactly how you all plan on bringing your respective ideologies about but I assume gaining "critical mass" is an important part of it. Leftist fail here because you use abstract notions and complex theories to explain things that really shouldn't be that hard to explain. People want to see a thought out plan before they jump on board with any radical ideology and thats what we want to do.

This is where we start agreeing, the left has many problems outdated rhetoric, over the top propaganda claiming Lenin to be god, Stalin Jesus and the Soviet Union heaven sometimes it's even too much for me to stomach so it's certainly not going attract the vast majority of the working class. I also agree that people need something that they can see and touch and be a part of but I believe that should start at a grass roots level working in the community and work place not "hey guys look at this shiny thing I made, cool eh?"
As for numbers 500,000 worldwide is fairly impressive within the first few years but I wouldn't start trying to compare them to world wide numbers of socialists both anarchists and communists. TZM is really great at PR something most socialist parties are terrible at and something we need to copy. Unfortunately our greatest weakness is TZM greatest strength which is baggage and history. Where as TZM greatest weakness is our strength, realistic theory.


The Venus Project split from TZM because they felt that it no longer had any say in the direction of the movement. Which basically means Jacque Fresco, who has designed the first city, is worried that his work, which he is so firmly attached to, may not see fruition due to the grass-roots nature of TZM. Plus TVP want to make a ridiculous million $ movie which they dont even need.
Splitters!!!:D I think that's a shame tbh I always preferred Fresco to Joseph he always seemed more sane, I hope this doesn't harm TZM

And don't worry about Cmoney he's a good guy but a closet anarcho-primmie :p

[Manic Impressive]

BTW just wondering have TZM chapters been participating in any of the direct action and marches over the last year or so?

[The Douche]

anarcho-primmie

At least primitivists aren't class collaborationists...

[Spawn of Stalin]

So I assume in a technocratic society, whether it be on a global scale or not, ALL people would have the opportunity to receive training in advanced technology to the same standard as anyone else, to a standard that would allow them to contribute to the shaping of society? It's all well and good making everything open source, but I mean I am free to go download some Linux source code, but I can't do a thing with it because I don't have a good education.

Also there appear to be some pretty heavily conflicting views on this issue, any sources I should look at? Evidence to support that technocrats are reactionary/progressive?

[RED DAVE]

Also there appear to be some pretty heavily conflicting views on this issue, any sources I should look at? Evidence to support that technocrats are reactionary/progressive?Here is a recent, heavy thread on Technocracy. The nonrevolutionary nature of Technocracy is demonstrated here over and over again.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/eos-tendency-t152965/index.html?t=152965

By the way, before anyone participates in this thread, they should read Engels's Socialism Utopian and Scientific. (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/index.htm) It's amusing or dismaying to see people repeating the same nonsense about utopian socialism that Engels refuted well over 100 years ago.

RED DAVE

[RadioRaheem84]

Of course class struggle plays a key part in all of this but whats the point of going ape shit about it. Slogans like "workers of the world unite" (i'm not sure what leftist kids say on the bloc these days) only aid in polarising the classes and makes us look like we think all of the bourgeoise are 2 dimensional antagonists in some kind of epic war. Most of them care about humanity on the whole and so its just a matter of showing them a better solution, not alienating them. Further still, the transitional plan involves creating a "test" city to show it works and to fine-tune the idea. If this is planned out correctly then there is no need to "overthrow" the bourgeoise. This economic system only functions if people take part in it - if we can provide an alternative way of life that is better then people will join it. We are doing pretty well already - Peter Joseph has
appeared on Russia Today several times, The 3rd film is shown on TV in greece ocassionally and TVP were invited to some UN conference. And you can't deny that it is more accessible to people than most leftist organisations. In two years it has gained half a million members - you show me a leftist movement that has that kind of trend.

What you just wrote proves to me that you lack a fundamental class analysis and are reduced to being naive about the class struggle which is perpetrated day in and day out al over the world by people with vest material interest in maintaining class relations.

You are basically reducing the whole of the 20th century with it's labor struggles, class warfare and national liberation, to mere misunderstandings.

The fact that you also mock the class analysis is troubling. I really hate it when groups such as yours act like they're above the class struggle and call for collaboration. It just seems like a desperate attempt to feel accepted into the mainstream and pull yourself apart from other leftist groups.

The bourgoise only care about humanity in the sense that they can both keep their class position and help people too. Other than that they come up hundreds of "creative" solutions to crises all in a vain attempt to preserve the capitalist system.
They pat themselves on the back for coming up with creative and humanitarian solutions all the time, when they're really just shifting crises around to maintain the social order.

Your comments are not only naive but condescending.

[DRGonzo]

Oh for fucks sake - we're trying to pull ourselves apart from the left? Sounds like the best option to me given that all you ever do is divide yourselves up into various "isms" and spend the rest of the time going round in circles talking about the failings of past "isms".

TZM is meant to be a social experiment so your form of [insert persons name here]ism could very well be tested out if we actually get anywhere with this movement. Its about testing out those ideas to get the best form of society possible.

I think to generalise a class is pretty naive. As if anyone with over x amount of money suddenly becomes a megalomaniac. Some are comfortable in the position they are in, others are desensitised to the "plight of the proletariate"....i blame society dude...And its ridiculous to keep harping on about class when you are trying to eliminate it. It just fuels the reactionaries.

The need for the bourgoise to keep their social standing is vital for their survival in this society because were playing a zero sum game - we are trying to transcend this mind state and provide a society where there is less to lose from not engaging in this kind of primitive behavior.

TZM doesn't care about distinctions between the bourgoise and proletariate because it is aiming for a passive revolution - it is striving for scientifically relevant results so that we can transition to such a state through logic rather than rhetoric and theories.

As for what we have done:

The uk chapter has had a few people attending protests - other than that mostly awareness spreading like giving out leaflets and the like. The Greek chapter seems to be going at it hard though. I havent really checked up on the other chapters. Some transitional teams are forming along with media teams. Everyone is lending their hand in some way - graphic designers are creating conceptual models, musicians are making songs, engineers like those at open source ecology are making cheap farming equipment designs, theres a couchsurfing styled site just for zeitgeisters, people are buying billboards with their own money just to advertise TZM, chapeters are sharing "marketing ploys" such as stamping "thezeigeistmovement.com" on monetary notes etc., youtube campaigns such as the "why i advocate tzm" one are helping to spread it on the interwebs, programmers are designing software such as VENUX a linux based os for zeitgesters, offshoots like RBEF are dealing with the maths involved in the systems aproach that we advocate...theres probably some more things that im missing out.

I do feel that we do need to "get out there" a bit more though and i understand what you mean when you ask that question.

[Manic Impressive]

I think to generalise a class is pretty naive. As if anyone with over x amount of money suddenly becomes a megalomaniac. Some are comfortable in the position they are in, others are desensitised to the "plight of the proletariate"....i blame society dude...And its ridiculous to keep harping on about class when you are trying to eliminate it. It just fuels the reactionaries. When we talk about class we generally mean the economic class not the social class. It has little to do with how much capital you have and more to do with your relation to the means of production.


TZM doesn't care about distinctions between the bourgoise and proletariate because it is aiming for a passive revolution - it is striving for scientifically relevant results so that we can transition to such a state through logic rather than rhetoric and theories.
That's news to me I'll have a look for it but I watched a video on youtube of a meeting between a TZM chapter and a socialist group where I'm sure they said revolution by any means necessary.


As for what we have done:

The uk chapter has had a few people attending protests - other than that mostly awareness spreading like giving out leaflets and the like. The Greek chapter seems to be going at it hard though. I havent really checked up on the other chapters. Some transitional teams are forming along with media teams. Everyone is lending their hand in some way - graphic designers are creating conceptual models, musicians are making songs, engineers like those at open source ecology are making cheap farming equipment designs, theres a couchsurfing styled site just for zeitgeisters, people are buying billboards with their own money just to advertise TZM, chapeters are sharing "marketing ploys" such as stamping "thezeigeistmovement.com" on monetary notes etc., youtube campaigns such as the "why i advocate tzm" one are helping to spread it on the interwebs, programmers are designing software such as VENUX a linux based os for zeitgesters, offshoots like RBEF are dealing with the maths involved in the systems aproach that we advocate...theres probably some more things that im missing out.

I do feel that we do need to "get out there" a bit more though and i understand what you mean when you ask that question.
Good for you and Good luck, I mean that. I think you have kind of missed a trick though by not being more noticeable at the major protests we've had recently. For instance a stall in Hyde park would have been a good idea if you could have pulled off a UKuncut type thing it would have got you a lot more publicity. But unfortunately that is my view of TZM basically the same as UKuncut, well intentioned with good people but fundamentally flawed theory and practice.

[graymouser]

I think to generalise a class is pretty naive. As if anyone with over x amount of money suddenly becomes a megalomaniac. Some are comfortable in the position they are in, others are desensitised to the "plight of the proletariate"....i blame society dude...And its ridiculous to keep harping on about class when you are trying to eliminate it. It just fuels the reactionaries.

The need for the bourgoise to keep their social standing is vital for their survival in this society because were playing a zero sum game - we are trying to transcend this mind state and provide a society where there is less to lose from not engaging in this kind of primitive behavior.
This shows a total lack of understanding of ABC class politics. The bourgeoisie are not "megalomaniacs" because they have "over x amount of money." A number of dollars or euros or whatevers does not decide your role in relation to class society - whether or not you own the means of production, or whether you are forced to sell your labor to survive, does.

The bourgeoisie has one motto, one credo, one belief: MORE. Any fancy words or ideas are erased by the drive to accumulate. And the laws of the capitalist system prevent a bloc of capital from ceasing this accumulation; once it does, it will be ruthlessly outstripped by its competitors. The problem is not that the game is zero sum, but rather that advances are all gobbled up by the ever-pressing insistence of capital to expand itself. If you give the bourgeoisie more resources, they will only resort to more production, more immiseration of the workers, more crises. Automation in capitalism is not used so everyone can share in abundance but rather so commodities can be made more quickly and cheaply. There is no level at which this stops. Capitalism is an open-ended accumulation machine and breaks down hard when that accumulation cannot continue.


TZM doesn't care about distinctions between the bourgoise and proletariate because it is aiming for a passive revolution - it is striving for scientifically relevant results so that we can transition to such a state through logic rather than rhetoric and theories.
I'm no Maoist, but Mao had one thing right:

"A revolution is not a dinner party, or writing an essay, or painting a picture, or doing embroidery; it cannot be so refined, so leisurely and gentle, so temperate, kind, courteous, restrained and magnanimous. A revolution is an insurrection, an act of violence by which one class overthrows another."

For all his many flaws, Mao was right; passive revolution is a myth. You talk of "revolution" but you mean a dinner party. It won't happen; too many people are too invested in the system. The whole thing needs to be overthrown.

[Arilou Lalee'lay]

I think to generalise a class is pretty naive. As if anyone with over x amount of money suddenly becomes a megalomaniac.After the October revolution the burzhooi were discriminated against, including rich people who were paid a lot simply because they contributed a lot (doctors, etc.). I've had long arguments with the people here who want to keep making that mistake over and over again. They're the same ones with the most historical baggage Manic was talking about, that still pray at the alters of edgy leaders that may or may not have also been mass murderers.

However, the fundamental problem with your theory (well, one of them) is that technology has reduced the need to work but not eliminated it (not only that but, like graymouser said, this will never happen, and we can explain why in detail if you'd like). The people who don't have to work at all in the current system, and who are convinced that their cultural hegemony is correct and can only be maintained by their continued power, will throw their money against anyone who wants them to work a little and and take away their power.

If you're bored and want a more intellectually stimulating utopian city check this out:
http://www.notbored.org/new-babylon.html

[RadioRaheem84]

I think to generalise a class is pretty naive. As if anyone with over x amount of money suddenly becomes a megalomaniac. Some are comfortable in the position they are in, others are desensitised to the "plight of the proletariate"....i blame society dude...And its ridiculous to keep harping on about class when you are trying to eliminate it. It just fuels the reactionaries.




The robber barons of the early 20th century were instrumental in bringing about a surge of philanthropic causes by the super rich. Carnegie being the ringleader. Yet, they would not stop the their capital accumilation because for the most part capitalism is a system that has to keep feeding in order to survive.

Why does it anger you so much that others engage in class warfare? The rich do it us all the time and are pretty openly brazen about it too.

Why is the anger always geared toward us, the workers who call the situation as it is?

Most of time, leftists are engaged in analyzing the situation facing us, analyzing capitalism, not engaging in anti-rich people rhetoric. We say that the rich will not give up their social positions without a fight, as has been proven by history and you jump all over us for having an "outdated" theory? It's fact, dude. Documented history. The history of class struggle.

Why is there always this presumption that we just want to demonize rich people for the hell of it?

Someone needs to read some Gramsci. Or perhaps Michael Parenti's best book; Land of Idols:Political Mythology in America.

[Rafiq]

They're just a bunch of Idealists.

Nothing worth critical analysis.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Another example of a planned utopian city, not dissimilar from the Zeitgeist people.Its been "under construction" since 1970 and doesn't really seem to be going anywhere

http://www.arcosanti.org/

Another, somewhat more viable project in Italy

http://www.damanhur.org/

There have been many other projects similar to the ZGM. Intentional communities,ecovillages, utopian experiments. Why will Zeitgeist succeed while the others have failed or been re-assimilated by mainstream society?

ZGM does not explore the history of utopianism.

A few issues, at random
1.) DRGonzo mentioned that leftist theory is too complex and abstract. Well, the world is not a simple place.Marx's Capital was a friggin' difficult read but I thought it was the most important work I've read for understanding the dynamics, the laws of motion of capitalist society.

2.)Socialists maintain the belief in systemic social transformation. An isolated social experiment, hoping to bring more people into it, won't work. That's been the fallacy of countercultural movements. This has been tried many many times before.There's a need for building an alternative culture but it has to be built on the basis of working class struggle

3.) The classic utopian socialists believed you could create a socialist society w/out class struggle, workers and bourgeois holding hands and singing Gumbaya. History has shown that things don't work that way.

[Spawn of Stalin]

They're just a bunch of Idealists.

Nothing worth critical analysis.
Then why post? Did you really think you were going to convince anybody with that argument? After everything that's been said over the last three pages?

[Die Rote Fahne]

From what I can gather is they are more along the line of utopian technocratic corporatism (in the class cooperation sense of the term).

Maybe i'm wrong, but the idea that they are socialist is somewhat not right to me.

[DRGonzo]

I use the term bourgeoisie in the sense of wealth because earlier someone stated that
going "off the grid" was only a viable solution for the borgeoise and petit-bourgeoisie. Thanks for clarifying this though.

With regards to class struggle - it doesnt seem relevant because we are trying to provide the means for people to no longer take part in capitalism. One of the solutions that groups within TZM are gravitating towards is the idea of creating democratic companies and providing a way of supporting the movement financially without people
having to change their way of life significantly. If we produce zeitgeist products people can support the movement by simply buying things they need from us rather than major companies. With enough support we could have enough funding for a city without the need for "die-hard activists" and political parties which have proven to be ineffective for the most part. This isn't something that TZM advocates as yet but it is one of the many ideas floating about. Of course, needless to say, transparency and direct democracy is vital for such a plan. As the current system is dependant on consumption - if we can decrease the flow of money it would likely damage the capitalist system severely with enough members. It's about doing all we can to bring capitalism to the "breaking point". I'm not sure what the borgeouise could do
to stop this but if it has happened in the past do tell me. I personally think that the only way is to beat them at their own game. We all have to take part, if youre socialist or otherwise, so why not at least use this to your advantage. If corruption within the movement is an issue you forsee then all I can say is that at the moment people are working very hard to create a stable networking infrastructure within the movement.

With regards to the complexity of marxism - I agree, capital was the most influencial book i have read to-date. But asking everyone to read such literature is not a viable method of spreading revolution. Some people think practically and others like to think in terms of the abstract - you have to be understanding towards both types of people because bothare needed for any real revolution.

[RED DAVE]

With regards to class struggle - it doesnt seem relevant because we are trying to provide the means for people to no longer take part in capitalism.This is impossible since capitalism is a global system.


One of the solutions that groups within TZM are gravitating towards is the idea of creating democratic companies and providing a way of supporting the movement financially without people
having to change their way of life significantly.This is still capitalism. What you want is to challenge the system without challenging it. What you would be doing is exploiting yourselves at a higher rate than capitalism exploits the average worker. Not too cool.


If we produce zeitgeist products people can support the movement by simply buying things they need from us rather than major companies.Still capitalism. T-shirts do not challenge the system.


With enough support we could have enough funding for a city without the need for "die-hard activists" and political parties which have proven to be ineffective for the most part.This sounds like the same crap we got from Dimentio and EOS. Revolution is the only way to overthrow capitalism. All revolutions fail, except the last one.


This isn't something that TZM advocates as yet but it is one of the many ideas floating about. Of course, needless to say, transparency and direct democracy is vital for such a plan. As the current system is dependant on consumption - if we can decrease the flow of money it would likely damage the capitalist system severely with enough members. It's about doing all we can to bring capitalism to the "breaking point". I'm not sure what the borgeouise could doto stop this but if it has happened in the past do tell me.You have no concept of how huge and powerful global capitalism is. This is a fantasy. The US government just lent its banks over $1,000,000,000,000. Do you really think you can decrease the flow of money in any significant way?


I personally think that the only way is to beat them at their own game.And you are wrong.


We all have to take part, if youre socialist or otherwise, so why not at least use this to your advantage.Bcuase it's a fantasy.


If corruption within the movement is an issue you forsee then all I can say is that at the moment people are working very hard to create a stable networking infrastructure within the movement.You have no idea what it means to build a revolutionary organization.


With regards to the complexity of marxism - I agree, capital was the most influencial book i have read to-date. But asking everyone to read such literature is not a viable method of spreading revolution. Some people think practically and others like to think in terms of the abstract - you have to be understanding towards both types of people because bothare needed for any real revolution.This is a red herring. Reading Capital is not a requirement for being a revolutionary (although it helps). What is required, though, is a healthy knowledge of revolutionary ideas and the willingness to act.

RED DAVE

[CommunityBeliever]

bring capitalism to the "breaking point"Good luck with that. Hopefully when people realize that your solution won't work they will realize that violent revolution is the solution.

I know there were some people that were reformists that became revolutionary during the 26th of July Movement.

[RED DAVE]

I know there was a large group of people that peacefully protested against the Batista regime and went on strike, and then when they saw that that was ineffective they joined the 26th of July Movement.Now that is about as imprecise a statement as one can make.

By the way, do you advocate people's war or guerrilla warfare in the Rocky Mountains?

RED DAVE

[The Douche]

Now that is about as imprecise a statement as one can make.

By the way, do you advocate people's war or guerrilla warfare in the Rocky Mountains?

RED DAVE

Nah, the appalachians, why?

[chegitz guevara]

TZM is even worse than TVP, I would like to see how one could honestly claim "we're not conspiracy theorists" when their movement's basis is a idiotic movie half about 9/11 conspiracy, and half an intellectually dishonest attack on the supposed existentence (or non-existence) of Jesus Christ, neither of which have anything to do with the struggle for communism.

What happened to the part about the Federal Reserve?

[chegitz guevara]

I know there was a large group of people that peacefully protested against the Batista regime and went on strike, and then when they saw that that was ineffective they joined the 26th of July Movement.

Batista was brought down by a general strike. Of course, it was only successful because the bearded ones had smashed the repressive apparatus of the state.

[pastradamus]

Seriously, I wish this guy could think of better ways to use his intelligence in order to make money.

"Jacque Fresco" - "futurist" . . . . What a fucking thespian.

[CommunityBeliever]

Batista was brought down by a general strike. Of course, it was only successful because the bearded ones had smashed the repressive apparatus of the state. Thank you. You are right, the regime was taken down by a general strike. I do know however that there were some reformists that eventually became revolutionary back then because they realized that things like collaboration and compromise won't take down the system. My point is that I hope these reformist technocrats will realize that revolution is the solution.