Capitalism here, don't mind me. Just working

[New_Zealand_bro]

Hello lefties. I'm here to set you guys straight and introduce you to the power of the free market

You banned my friend tic_toc a little while ago, calling him a fascist. Tic toc is not a fascist, he a right libertarian. Similar to me

Now, why do you guys hate the free market? What do you think is wrong with it? I will refute all your points and show you the error of your ways.

Ask a lite, right leaning libertarian with strong objection to immigration and a strong believer in national identity and sovereignty anything.

[Agent Ducky]

Hello lefties. I'm here to set you guys straight and introduce you to the power of the free market

You banned my friend tic_toc a little while ago, calling him a fascist. Tic toc is not a fascist, he a right libertarian. Similar to me

Now, why do you guys hate the free market? What do you think is wrong with it? I will refute all your points and show you the error of your ways.

Ask a lite, right leaning libertarian with strong objection to immigration and a strong believer in national identity and sovereignty anything.

I think he got unbanned? ....

And don't think you're going to convince anyone on revleft. Seriously. You sound so sure of yourself. I'm sure the comrades here will have fun arguing with you and laughing at your arguments.

[Agent Ducky]

Does anyone else smell possible sockpuppetry?

[New_Zealand_bro]

>I think he got unbanned? ....

He told me he was labelled as a fascist and privatly banned (as in no one else can see his ban)

>I'm sure the comrades here will have fun arguing with you and laughing at your arguments.

Come at me bro

[Agent Ducky]

No, I'm not even going to bother. Not worth my time.

[Bronco]

Actually I support the free market as well, it's just that vulgar libertarians such as yourself seem to have a misguided definition of what it really is

[Le Socialiste]

Aw, aren't you cute. :laugh:

Seriously though, what makes you think you're going to convert us "lefties"? You're on a forum filled with die-hard leftists (myself included). I'd love to debate you, let's hear what you have to say.

[hatzel]

Oh, so this is yet another thread about right libertarian trolls who approve of white nationalist groups...

http://animal.discovery.com/guides/endangered/mammals/gallery/african_wild_ass.jpg

This is a picture of a wild ass with a lot of growing up to do. I think you'll find I'm totally on topic :)

[RedZezz]

I will repost my original question on Tik Toc's thread:


What is socialism and communism?

I ask because most right-wingers I talk to don't know or have an incorrect definition, so I generally like to get a feel for their theoretical understanding.

Hint: If you say government ownsership of the economy, one-man dictatorship, Obama, or any form of totalitarian ideology, you are WRONG!

[New_Zealand_bro]

lol what. The free market is closest to it's truest form under libertarianism. Having the state only existing to prevent collusion, provide infrastructure, protect rights and protect our boarders means that men can freely accumulate capital and skills without the pesky government getting in the way.

So you tell me, how free enterprise and liberty can exist with an overbearing, authoritarian government telling men what they can and can't do. Because as far as I know free enterprise means voluntary transactions, not force.

[The Man]

Hello lefties. I'm here to set you guys straight and introduce you to the power of the free market

You banned my friend tic_toc a little while ago, calling him a fascist. Tic toc is not a fascist, he a right libertarian. Similar to me

Now, why do you guys hate the free market? What do you think is wrong with it? I will refute all your points and show you the error of your ways.

Ask a lite, right leaning libertarian with strong objection to immigration and a strong believer in national identity and sovereignty anything.

Why won't Communism work?

[Comrade J]

There is no "free" market. And yes, capitalism works stunningly. But only for a small minority. Asia, Latin America, Africa, and millions across North America and Europe suffer because of concentrated capital.

Also, as you're from New Zealand and you're against immigration, I can only assume you're Maori, and as you will know - being a Maori - the indigenous people of New Zealand are overall more economically deprived than whites, so why you would support capitalism I do not understand.

[New_Zealand_bro]

>What is socialism and communism?

Socialism is workers controlling the means of production. Only form of Socialism that currently exists is the planned economy. A proven failure both theoretically, historically and philosophically.

Communism is a classless society where the means of production is owned by the workers. It pretty much means Utopian Socialism.

[Ocean Seal]

Hello lefties. I'm here to set you guys straight and introduce you to the power of the free market
:o


You banned my friend tic_toc a little while ago, calling him a fascist. Tic toc is not a fascist, he a right libertarian. Similar to me

Do you support white supremacist movements as well?



Now, why do you guys hate the free market? What do you think is wrong with it? I will refute all your points and show you the error of your ways.

Me first.
Most of the world is capitalist, most of the world is poor. Real wages have been falling for the past 40 or so years. And real wages have even stopped growing in China where enormous economic growth has ensued. About half of the world lives on $ 2 a day. 15 million children die a year when there is enough food to go around for everyone ten times over.


And of course don't try the "ahh its the state, not the capitalists," because I assure you that the capitalists are the reason that the state operates. The state is merely a tool of legitimate authority for the ruling class, the state in fact exists because of this ruling class, and a state will exist so long as there is capitalism as there is no class based incentive to get rid of the state for the ruling class. The state being a tool is therefore kept to protect the rulers from themselves, and if you argue that the workers should abolish a state-- then why don't the abolish the ruling class while they're at it?


Capitalists no longer create, and instead merely leech of the creativity of their workers. Factories don't work because they have CEO's but because they have workers. Now you might argue that executives and capitalists do labor to create these institutions of wage slavery. However, why is it necessary that they create new institutions when those institutions are merely as oppressive as the one's before them and not more creative? The fact is, the workers can seize these institutions, centralize them, and create more effectively bypassing the resource destroying process of capitalism and the thin layer of parasites who drain the majority of the wealth from the world.

The capitalist class is no longer necessary, the means of production have already reached their maximum potential under capitalism. It is time to get rid of the exploitative regime which controls them. Put them in the hands of workers, who actually know how to produce and can decide democratically how to control them? If you don't believe that the workers can control what they produce-- then you're not much of a libertarian right? Unless you ironically believe that the workers should be free to do as they please, but they can't control their workplace-- because Daddy CEO knows best.

So let's do a recap
Most of the world is capitalist most of the world is poor

We have people starving and yet the wonderful free market which dictates that prices should drop because we produce so much isn't doing so? And believe me, the capitalist class controls the state-- so in fact we do live in a free market society.

Capitalists do not perform a worthwhile labor yet one CEO is paid as much as 475 workers who are actually involved in the creative process.

Bonus
Capitalism cannot by definition employ all of its workers because the economy is fragile and full employment will lead to hyperinflation. Socialism can employ everyone without serious inflation.

US: 9% unemployment (not including those who have stopped looking for work and the underemployed)
Inflation: ~3.8%

Cuba: 1.8% unemployment, Inflation: 3.4%

The most powerful nation in the capitalist world, and an isolated island nation which the most powerful nation in the world has placed an embargo upon. How did that happen?



Ask a lite, right leaning libertarian with strong objection to immigration and a strong believer in national identity (I like you because I was born on the same side of a line in the sand as you) and sovereignty anything.
Freedom for those you please to give it to.

[La Comédie Noire]

Ask a lite, right leaning libertarian with strong objection to immigration and a strong believer in national identity and sovereignty anything.


Why are you against immigration, all markets should be open and competetive, including labor markets. Right? I mean right???

[Rooster]

If I'm free to do anything I want without government interference, then why aren't I free to join up with my buddies and steal all of your shit?

[New_Zealand_bro]

Why won't Communism work?

Because Communism requires force to make people collectivize. The only way communism can work is on a tribal scale, with strong family ties keeping people collectivizing. On a National or international scale physical force is required take what people produce off them and give it to the collective.

The free market doesn't need to use force to get people working together. The price system does that. Self interest brings people from different cultures, who otherwise hate each other, together. Capitalism is the only way to achieve world peace.

[hatzel]

Self interest brings people from different cultures, who otherwise hate each other, together.

...didn't you just say something about strong immigration controls? How can it bring them together if they're not actually allowed to live in the same country? :confused:

[Bronco]

lol what. The free market is closest to it's truest form under libertarianism. Having the state only existing to prevent collusion, provide infrastructure, protect rights and protect our boarders means that men can freely accumulate capital and skills without the pesky government getting in the way.

So you tell me, how free enterprise and liberty can exist with an overbearing, authoritarian government telling men what they can and can't do. Because as far as I know free enterprise means voluntary transactions, not force.

Not under Right Libertarianism it isnt, they dont really understand what a free market is, a true free market would mean we dont have to suffer at the hand of corporations that have been propped up by the State, it would allow for genuine competetion, free workers from exploitation and increase equality.

[New_Zealand_bro]

>Why are you against immigration, all markets should be open and competetive, including labor markets. Right? I mean right???

Because of other Statist countries that breed poverty. If we have totally open boarders with other countries remaining statist. Then we would have people immigrating who can't even work just because a life of crime in a libertarian society is better than dying on the street in a Statist one. Also these people who come would try to vote in statism. You are seeing this happen in New Zealand right now with the Chinese immigrants who want to bring in the death penalty and shit.


If every country was libertarian, it wouldn't matter. Because poverty wouldn't be breed and immigration wouldn't cause crime and overbloated prisions. But until that day comes, we have to protect our lands

[Rooster]

I think a New Zealander would be on of the last people to be against immigration.

[New_Zealand_bro]

Not under Right Libertarianism it isnt, they dont really understand what a free market is, a true free market would mean we dont have to suffer at the hand of corporations that have been propped up by the State, it would allow for genuine competetion, free workers from exploitation and increase equality.

But that's wrong, you fucking retard. right libertarianism means the state leaves people alone to freely exchange, not holds up some companies over others. State robbing the wealth off the poor and giving it to the rich isn't right libertarianism, it's just reverse socialism. The rich robbing the poor. And the answer to this isn't robin hood, the answer to this is the state not propping up anyone.

Free market=/= big guys robbing little guys.
But socialism=Everyone robbing you

[New_Zealand_bro]

...didn't you just say something about strong immigration controls? How can it bring them together if they're not actually allowed to live in the same country? :confused:

They can work together even if they are in different nations.

Every good you consume has people from all around the world helping get it to you. From the petrol in the delivery truck that came from the middle east to the rubber from rubber plantations in south america. The magic of the market

[New_Zealand_bro]

I think a New Zealander would be on of the last people to be against immigration.

It's been proven that in diverse societies people end up hating other cultures more.

[Rooster]

But that's wrong, you fucking retard. right libertarianism means the state leaves people alone to freely exchange, not holds up some companies over others. State robbing the wealth off the poor and giving it to the rich isn't right libertarianism, it's just reverse socialism. The rich robbing the poor. And the answer to this isn't robin hood, the answer to this is the state not propping up anyone.

Free market=/= big guys robbing little guys.
But socialism=Everyone robbing you

God. You're a moron. Were you born a cretin or did you grow up to be one?

[Rooster]

It's been proven that in diverse societies people end up hating other cultures more.

Oh, so you're a Maori who hates white people?

[La Comédie Noire]

Because of other Statist countries that breed poverty. If we have totally open boarders with other countries remaining statist. Then we would have people immigrating who can't even work just because a life of crime in a libertarian society is better than dying on the street in a Statist one. Also these people who come would try to vote in statism. You are seeing this happen in New Zealand right now with the Chinese immigrants who want to bring in the death penalty and shit.


If every country was libertarian, it wouldn't matter. Because poverty wouldn't be breed and immigration wouldn't cause crime and overbloated prisions. But until that day comes, we have to protect our lands

Libertarianism in one country? :lol:

Besides the overy simplistic narrative, doesn't this contradict everything you believe a free market should do?

[#FF0000]

>What is socialism and communism?

Socialism is workers controlling the means of production.

Sure


Only form of Socialism that currently exists is the planned economy.

I wouldn't call planned economies like China or Russia after the civil war "socialist" at all.


A proven failure both theoretically, historically and philosophically.


Nope.


It pretty much means Utopian Socialism.

Nope.

[Ocean Seal]

Free market=/= big guys robbing little guys.

So those with the means of production are on the same scale as those without? There is no economic power vacuum which allows some people to make millions without so much as looking at the place which produced their wealth? Yes, its not robbery at all to profit without work especially when you have the majority of the profits go to you.
43% of the wealth is owned by the top 1%. Mind telling me why they are entitled to that kind of wealth? You might want to answer to my first post in addition to this one before making an argument--though.




But socialism=Everyone robbing you
Socialism-from each according to his ability, to each according to his contribution. Mind telling me what socialism is?

[#FF0000]

It's been proven that in diverse societies people end up hating other cultures more.

[Citation Needed]

[#FF0000]

I think we should all just stop responding until OP decides to post arguments and not just statements.

[Sir Comradical]

But that's wrong, you fucking retard. right libertarianism means the state leaves people alone to freely exchange, not holds up some companies over others. State robbing the wealth off the poor and giving it to the rich isn't right libertarianism, it's just reverse socialism. The rich robbing the poor. And the answer to this isn't robin hood, the answer to this is the state not propping up anyone.

Free market=/= big guys robbing little guys.
But socialism=Everyone robbing you

Even if we assume the existence of your perfect free market at time-zero, the competitive nature of the market would eventually lead to powerful capitalists using the state to advance their own interests. In other words, following your ideal model to its logical conclusion will inevitably produce results that negate your ideal model.

Consider yourself schooled, son.

[New_Zealand_bro]

There is no "free" market. And yes, capitalism works stunningly. But only for a small minority. Asia, Latin America, Africa, and millions across North America and Europe suffer because of concentrated capital.


Capitalism improves the standard of living for all involved. The only times it gets a bit shakey is when it starts off coming out of a statist society. For example, the robber baron days and some 3rd world country today. But eventually, the wealth trickles around

>Also, as you're from New Zealand and you're against immigration, I can only assume you're Maori, and as you will know - being a Maori - the indigenous people of New Zealand are overall more economically deprived than whites, so why you would support capitalism I do not understand.

Because it's the welfare state hurting maori's. The government has made maori's dependent on the government. And I'm a angelo saxon, and proud of my heritage. Everyone should be proud of their heritage, including the maroi's.

Being proud of your heritage doesn't make you a supremest.

[La Comédie Noire]

Being proud of your heritage doesn't make you a supremest.


Yeah it just makes it so you take credit for the work of others. :lol:

[#FF0000]

Capitalism improves the standard of living for all involved. The only times it gets a bit shakey is when it starts off coming out of a statist society.

[Citation Needed]


For example, the robber baron days and some 3rd world country today. But eventually, the wealth trickles around

[Citation Needed]

[Kotze]

Do you support the concept of meritocracy, that is people reaching higher positions based on their own merit and not based on being born into the right family?

[New_Zealand_bro]

Even if we assume the existence of your perfect free market at time-zero, the competitive nature of the market would eventually lead to powerful capitalists using the state to advance their own interests. In other words, following your ideal model to its logical conclusion will inevitably produce results that negate your ideal.

Consider yourself schooled, son.

>the competitive nature of the market would eventually lead to powerful capitalists using the state to advance their own interests.

That's why we would have a limited government under a republic system that would FORBID in stone the use of government redistributing wealth. Not even the majority vote would be able to change this, rule of law, not rule of people.

[New_Zealand_bro]

[Citation Needed]
The first world right now. Us Capitalist societies got rich. While Statist and Socialist societies remained poor



[Citation Needed]
Again us. We didn't remain in the robber baron days forever.

[Ocean Seal]

Capitalism improves the standard of living for all involved. The only times it gets a bit shakey is when it starts off coming out of a statist society. For example, the robber baron days and some 3rd world country today. But eventually, the wealth trickles around

And what is an anti-statist society? Has it ever existed and what has it produced. You say that the robber baron days were statist. But has it ever occurred to you, that those were the most anti-statist days by definition? There were no controls on corporations which is why they could do as they pleased and get as large as they want. The gilded age is right wing libertarian paradise. Complete freedom for the oppressor, and nothing for anyone else.




Because it's the welfare state hurting maori's. The government has made maori's dependent on the government. And I'm a angelo saxon, and proud of my heritage. Everyone should be proud of their heritage, including the maroi's.

New Zealand for Maori's! Multiculturalism doesn't work. A nation for only Maori's! Expel all Anglo-Saxon immigrants!!!!

[#FF0000]

That's why we would have a limited government under a republic system that would FORBID in stone the use of government redistributing wealth. Not even the majority vote would be able to change this, rule of law, not rule of people.

so gov't can't use tax money to build infrastructure? that doesn't count as redistributing wealth? since it's using money taken from private individuals to pay for a social good?

[New_Zealand_bro]

God. You're a moron. Were you born a cretin or did you grow up to be one?

Would you like some bacon with that Ad Hominem

[Sir Comradical]

>the competitive nature of the market would eventually lead to powerful capitalists using the state to advance their own interests.

That's why we would have a limited government under a republic system that would FORBID in stone the use of government redistributing wealth. Not even the majority vote would be able to change this, rule of law, not rule of people.

I'll say it again: Following your ideal model to its logical conclusion will inevitably produce results that negate your ideal. In other words, there's no point constructing your abstract ideal system because the economy is constantly being shaped in the interests of capitalists and they don't care for your limited government shit.

[New_Zealand_bro]

Libertarianism in one country? :lol:

Besides the overy simplistic narrative, doesn't this contradict everything you believe a free market should do?

Tell me why it does and I will answer you.

[#FF0000]

The first world right now. Us Capitalist societies got rich. While Statist and Socialist societies remained poor

Social Democratic countries have higher standards of living than the United States and you are insane if you think any country that developed into capitalism in the 20th century could have developed independently without interventionism.



Again us. We didn't remain in the robber baron days forever.Yeah thanks to anti-trust laws. you know. passed by the gubmint.

[#FF0000]

Would you like some bacon with that Ad Hominem

You're definitely one to talk here.

[New_Zealand_bro]

I'll say it again: Following your ideal model to its logical conclusion will inevitably produce results that negate your ideal. In other words, there's no point constructing your abstract ideal system because the economy is constantly being shaped in the interests of capitalists and they don't care for your limited government shit.

>here's no point constructing your abstract ideal system because the economy is constantly being shaped in the interests of capitalists and they don't care for your limited government shit.

Now you are just sprouting bullshit.

-More workers exist than Capitalists
-Capitalists somehow need to get nearly everyone on their side to change shit
-?????

Fill in the question-mark dickhead.

[Thug Lessons]

http://i.imgur.com/tOKrJ.jpg

[Kotze]

What do you think of affirmative action, that is 2 people with the same grades applying both for the same position, one from a poor background, one from a rich family, the one with the poor family gets it because of his background?

[#FF0000]

>here's no point constructing your abstract ideal system because the economy is constantly being shaped in the interests of capitalists and they don't care for your limited government shit.

Now you are just sprouting bullshit.

-More workers exist than Capitalists
-Capitalists somehow need to get nearly everyone on their side to change shit
-?????

Fill in the question-mark dickhead.

i kind of wish our resident hella rich business owner Bud Struggle was here so he could tell you that Comradical is entirely right that "limited gov't" is not what capitalists want. Maybe limited in some capacity, but not the sort Libertarians talk about.

[New_Zealand_bro]

Social Democratic countries have higher standards of living than the United States and you are insane if you think any country that developed into capitalism in the 20th century could have developed independently without interventionism.




Yeah thanks to anti-trust laws. you know. passed by the gubmint.

I'm for Anti-trust laws, but anti trust should apply for everyone. Even workers, do colluding in unions to set the price of labor.

>Social Democratic countries have higher standards of living than the United States and you are insane if you think any country that developed into capitalism in the 20th century could have developed independently without interventionism.

Actually, social democratic countries like sweeden and New Zealand are starting to shift away from a welfare state. And the US has a shitty standard of living because of the beaners coming in from their shitty statist country. Dropping the average standard of living.

Also most welfare countries are bankrupt (see greece and portugal) and the ones that are currently welfare countires accumulated their wealth and capital previously through the free market.

Socialist status
Not told [ ]
TOLD [X]

[Thug Lessons]

God just shut up you racist sack of garbage.

[New_Zealand_bro]

What do you think of affirmative action, that is 2 people with the same grades applying both for the same position, one from a poor background, one from a rich family, the one with the poor family gets it because of his background?

I am against it. It's discrimination by the State. If the poor guy is more productive and a harder worker then the firm loses out by not hiring him, if he is less productive he shouldn't have been hired anyway. No two people are exactly alike.

[#FF0000]

Actually, social democratic countries like sweeden and New Zealand are starting to shift away from a welfare state. And the US has a shitty standard of living because of the beaners coming in from their shitty statist country. Dropping the average standard of living.

http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/9766/1302270984472.jpg

fun fact: we are all broke in America. It isn't just mexican immigrants.

racist status:

[ ] not told
[ ] no country for told men
[ ] knights of the told republic
[X] butthurpd

[Thug Lessons]

I am against it. It's discrimination by the State. If the poor guy is more productive and a harder worker then the firm loses out by not hiring him, if he is less productive he shouldn't have been hired anyway. No two people are exactly alike.
Brilliant troll. I got so mad when I read this post that I did this:

http://i.imgur.com/TXhJt.jpg

[Kotze]

Well, if two people get the same grades in school, but A has help from their family financing private lessons while B lives in a very stressful environment and has to work a bit on the side, don't you think that B is likely the more talented/hard-working person? As a rule of thumb, getting the same grades while being from a poorer family is an indicator of being more talented/hardworking. Soo...

[New_Zealand_bro]

fun fact: we are all broke in America. It isn't just mexican immigrants.

racist status:

[ ] not told
[ ] no country for told men
[ ] knights of the told republic
[X] butthurpd

Fun fact, America is actually doing better than the Europoors

Also

>America
>Free market
Pick one, the state sucks corporate cock. When they stop subsidizing their farmers and putting up barriers to enter industries then you can tell me they are a free market.

[PhoenixAsh]

Hello lefties. I'm here to set you guys straight and introduce you to the power of the free market

You banned my friend tic_toc a little while ago, calling him a fascist. Tic toc is not a fascist, he a right libertarian. Similar to me

Now, why do you guys hate the free market? What do you think is wrong with it? I will refute all your points and show you the error of your ways.

Ask a lite, right leaning libertarian with strong objection to immigration and a strong believer in national identity and sovereignty anything.


Your free market works for a small group of people...not for the vast majority who live in absolute poverty. Pretty much history has proven that your ideology leads to massive exploitation, poverty, hunger loss of life expectancy.

There is really no argument you can put up against that.


/debate.


bye, bye.

[New_Zealand_bro]

Well, if two people get the same grades in school, but A has help from their family financing private lessons while B lives in a very stressful environment and has to work a bit on the side, don't you think that B is likely the more talented/hard-working person? As a rule of thumb, getting the same grades while being from a poorer family is an indicator of being more talented/hardworking. Soo...

Well yea, firms are good at finding the best people for the jobs because they want profit. If they make an error they lose out, so they don't often make errors.

And B would get the job in my opinion because he is proven to work well under stress and would ultimiatly be more productive. Even if he doesn't get the job another firm would nab him because he's obviously a productive guy.

[PhoenixAsh]

Fun fact, America is actually doing better than the Europoors

Also

>America
>Free market
Pick one, the state sucks corporate cock. When they stop subsidizing their farmers and putting up barriers to enter industries then you can tell me they are a free market.


rrrrright....you mean with a massive trillions of dollar debt? A debt larger than the entirety of Europe put together?

I can pretty much assure you that the US is not doing better than Europe. If THAT is your argument for the free market...we are pretty much done here.

[Sir Comradical]

>here's no point constructing your abstract ideal system because the economy is constantly being shaped in the interests of capitalists and they don't care for your limited government shit.

Now you are just sprouting bullshit.

-More workers exist than Capitalists
-Capitalists somehow need to get nearly everyone on their side to change shit
-?????

Fill in the question-mark dickhead.

The capitalists are in effective control of the economy because they own/control the means of production. While the workers outnumber capitalists, they don't own/control the means of production. According to your argument, slavery would have never existed because slaves outnumbered their masters.

You must be a special case not to see this one coming. Try again you fucking zero.

[New_Zealand_bro]

Your free market works for a small group of people...not for the vast majority who live in absolute poverty. Pretty much history has proven that your ideology leads to massive exploitation, poverty, hunger loss of life expectancy.

There is really no argument you can put up against that.


/debate.


bye, bye.


You seem to be confusing the free market with Statism and Socialism. Free market works through voluntary agreement and action. No exploition can happen under this system unless collusion occurs or state helps one side over the other.

Why do you think all the poor countries are Statist shitholes? It's not the free markets fault.

[#FF0000]

Fun fact, America is actually doing better than the Europoors

by what metric

[Ocean Seal]

And the US has a shitty standard of living because of the beaners coming in from their shitty statist country. Dropping the average standard of living.

*Yawn* you're not even a smart libertarian.
I would swear at you, for saying shit like this but honestly, you're greatest curse is your stupidity. And you are a white supremacist. Yes, its the fault of the immigrants, not the ruling class which has the majority of the wealth. In fact, how do they lower the standard of living? And how is Mexico statist? If you have time before you're banned please check my original post.



Me first.
Most of the world is capitalist, most of the world is poor. Real wages have been falling for the past 40 or so years. And real wages have even stopped growing in China where enormous economic growth has ensued. About half of the world lives on $ 2 a day. 15 million children die a year when there is enough food to go around for everyone ten times over.


And of course don't try the "ahh its the state, not the capitalists," because I assure you that the capitalists are the reason that the state operates. The state is merely a tool of legitimate authority for the ruling class, the state in fact exists because of this ruling class, and a state will exist so long as there is capitalism as there is no class based incentive to get rid of the state for the ruling class. The state being a tool is therefore kept to protect the rulers from themselves, and if you argue that the workers should abolish a state-- then why don't the abolish the ruling class while they're at it?


Capitalists no longer create, and instead merely leech of the creativity of their workers. Factories don't work because they have CEO's but because they have workers. Now you might argue that executives and capitalists do labor to create these institutions of wage slavery. However, why is it necessary that they create new institutions when those institutions are merely as oppressive as the one's before them and not more creative? The fact is, the workers can seize these institutions, centralize them, and create more effectively bypassing the resource destroying process of capitalism and the thin layer of parasites who drain the majority of the wealth from the world.

The capitalist class is no longer necessary, the means of production have already reached their maximum potential under capitalism. It is time to get rid of the exploitative regime which controls them. Put them in the hands of workers, who actually know how to produce and can decide democratically how to control them? If you don't believe that the workers can control what they produce-- then you're not much of a libertarian right? Unless you ironically believe that the workers should be free to do as they please, but they can't control their workplace-- because Daddy CEO knows best.

So let's do a recap
Most of the world is capitalist most of the world is poor

We have people starving and yet the wonderful free market which dictates that prices should drop because we produce so much isn't doing so? And believe me, the capitalist class controls the state-- so in fact we do live in a free market society.

Capitalists do not perform a worthwhile labor yet one CEO is paid as much as 475 workers who are actually involved in the creative process.

Bonus
Capitalism cannot by definition employ all of its workers because the economy is fragile and full employment will lead to hyperinflation. Socialism can employ everyone without serious inflation.

US: 9% unemployment (not including those who have stopped looking for work and the underemployed)
Inflation: ~3.8%

Cuba: 1.8% unemployment, Inflation: 3.4%

The most powerful nation in the capitalist world, and an isolated island nation which the most powerful nation in the world has placed an embargo upon. How did that happen?






Also most welfare countries are bankrupt (see greece and portugal) and the ones that are currently welfare countires accumulated their wealth and capital previously through the free market.

And know they will become socialist because the workers are achieving class consciousness faster than you can say Heil Ron Paul because capitalism of any kind doesn't work.

[Thug Lessons]

Fun fact, America is actually doing better than the Europoors

Also

>America
>Free market
Pick one, the state sucks corporate cock. When they stop subsidizing their farmers and putting up barriers to enter industries then you can tell me they are a free market.
Fun fact, anime owns bones. Anime FTW.

[New_Zealand_bro]

The capitalists are in effective control of the economy because they own/control the means of production. While the workers outnumber capitalists, they don't own/control the means of production. According to your argument, slavery would have never existed because slaves outnumbered their masters.

You must be a special case not to see this one coming. Try again you fucking zero.

Do Capitalists have more votes than workers, NOPE. So you try again.

more Capital doesn't equal more votes.

[#FF0000]

No exploition can happen under this system unless collusion occurs or state helps one side over the other.You really think that a world where people with loads of cashbux don't or can't influence government to their own ends can ever exist. that is precious.


Do Capitalists have more votes than workers, NOPE. So you try again.

more Capital doesn't equal more votes. capitalists have lots of money thus easy access to politicians and mass media. this has been a thing forever.

\/\/\/\/\/\/ that doesn't sound like a good idea to me

[Thug Lessons]

Hey guys, I have an idea, let's sincerely argue with this racist libertarian troll instead of posting pictures of an anime biting another anime's boob

[Ocean Seal]

Do Capitalists have more votes than workers, NOPE. So you try again.

more Capital doesn't equal more votes.


If voting could change anything the wouldn't let us do it.


[Amadeo Bordiga]
Political freedom and equality, which, according to the theory of liberalism, are expressed in the right to vote, have no meaning except on a basis that excludes inequality of fundamental economic conditions. For this reason we communists accept their application within the class organizations of the proletariat and contend that they should function democratically.




Me first.
Most of the world is capitalist, most of the world is poor. Real wages have been falling for the past 40 or so years. And real wages have even stopped growing in China where enormous economic growth has ensued. About half of the world lives on $ 2 a day. 15 million children die a year when there is enough food to go around for everyone ten times over.


And of course don't try the "ahh its the state, not the capitalists," because I assure you that the capitalists are the reason that the state operates. The state is merely a tool of legitimate authority for the ruling class, the state in fact exists because of this ruling class, and a state will exist so long as there is capitalism as there is no class based incentive to get rid of the state for the ruling class. The state being a tool is therefore kept to protect the rulers from themselves, and if you argue that the workers should abolish a state-- then why don't the abolish the ruling class while they're at it?


Capitalists no longer create, and instead merely leech of the creativity of their workers. Factories don't work because they have CEO's but because they have workers. Now you might argue that executives and capitalists do labor to create these institutions of wage slavery. However, why is it necessary that they create new institutions when those institutions are merely as oppressive as the one's before them and not more creative? The fact is, the workers can seize these institutions, centralize them, and create more effectively bypassing the resource destroying process of capitalism and the thin layer of parasites who drain the majority of the wealth from the world.

The capitalist class is no longer necessary, the means of production have already reached their maximum potential under capitalism. It is time to get rid of the exploitative regime which controls them. Put them in the hands of workers, who actually know how to produce and can decide democratically how to control them? If you don't believe that the workers can control what they produce-- then you're not much of a libertarian right? Unless you ironically believe that the workers should be free to do as they please, but they can't control their workplace-- because Daddy CEO knows best.

So let's do a recap
Most of the world is capitalist most of the world is poor

We have people starving and yet the wonderful free market which dictates that prices should drop because we produce so much isn't doing so? And believe me, the capitalist class controls the state-- so in fact we do live in a free market society.

Capitalists do not perform a worthwhile labor yet one CEO is paid as much as 475 workers who are actually involved in the creative process.

Bonus
Capitalism cannot by definition employ all of its workers because the economy is fragile and full employment will lead to hyperinflation. Socialism can employ everyone without serious inflation.

US: 9% unemployment (not including those who have stopped looking for work and the underemployed)
Inflation: ~3.8%

Cuba: 1.8% unemployment, Inflation: 3.4%

The most powerful nation in the capitalist world, and an isolated island nation which the most powerful nation in the world has placed an embargo upon. How did that happen?

[New_Zealand_bro]

you really think that a world where people with loads of cashbux don't or can't influence government to their own ends can ever exist. That is precious.


don't you fucking read. The government helping one side over the other isn't capitalism you fucking retards. You all have sprouted this in every one of your posts. Stop it and think of new arguments.

[Desperado]

So you tell me, how free enterprise and liberty can exist with an overbearing, authoritarian government telling men what they can and can't do.

Nice job ignoring the vast spectrum of leftist tendencies.


Because as far as I know free enterprise means voluntary transactions, not force.

Because property isn't defended by guns. Because it's not a voluntary transaction if the only way someone can afford to pay their rent and feed their kids is to work in the massively limited choice of shit paying jobs.

To explain it in your terms: the labour market in capitalism is for the most part a monopsony - there always has been an asymmetric ownership of capital and an over supply of workers (the word unemployed didn't exist until the arrival of capitalism). Hence individual workers don't have the bargaining power they should, it's not a free market and they are paid bellow their value.

[Ocean Seal]

don't you fucking read. The government helping one side over the other isn't capitalism you fucking retards. You all have sprouted this in every one of your posts. Stop it and think of new arguments.
Before you make your arguments, read this post



Me first.
Most of the world is capitalist, most of the world is poor. Real wages have been falling for the past 40 or so years. And real wages have even stopped growing in China where enormous economic growth has ensued. About half of the world lives on $ 2 a day. 15 million children die a year when there is enough food to go around for everyone ten times over.


And of course don't try the "ahh its the state, not the capitalists," because I assure you that the capitalists are the reason that the state operates. The state is merely a tool of legitimate authority for the ruling class, the state in fact exists because of this ruling class, and a state will exist so long as there is capitalism as there is no class based incentive to get rid of the state for the ruling class. The state being a tool is therefore kept to protect the rulers from themselves, and if you argue that the workers should abolish a state-- then why don't the abolish the ruling class while they're at it?


Capitalists no longer create, and instead merely leech of the creativity of their workers. Factories don't work because they have CEO's but because they have workers. Now you might argue that executives and capitalists do labor to create these institutions of wage slavery. However, why is it necessary that they create new institutions when those institutions are merely as oppressive as the one's before them and not more creative? The fact is, the workers can seize these institutions, centralize them, and create more effectively bypassing the resource destroying process of capitalism and the thin layer of parasites who drain the majority of the wealth from the world.

The capitalist class is no longer necessary, the means of production have already reached their maximum potential under capitalism. It is time to get rid of the exploitative regime which controls them. Put them in the hands of workers, who actually know how to produce and can decide democratically how to control them? If you don't believe that the workers can control what they produce-- then you're not much of a libertarian right? Unless you ironically believe that the workers should be free to do as they please, but they can't control their workplace-- because Daddy CEO knows best.

So let's do a recap
Most of the world is capitalist most of the world is poor

We have people starving and yet the wonderful free market which dictates that prices should drop because we produce so much isn't doing so? And believe me, the capitalist class controls the state-- so in fact we do live in a free market society.

Capitalists do not perform a worthwhile labor yet one CEO is paid as much as 475 workers who are actually involved in the creative process.

Bonus
Capitalism cannot by definition employ all of its workers because the economy is fragile and full employment will lead to hyperinflation. Socialism can employ everyone without serious inflation.

US: 9% unemployment (not including those who have stopped looking for work and the underemployed)
Inflation: ~3.8%

Cuba: 1.8% unemployment, Inflation: 3.4%

The most powerful nation in the capitalist world, and an isolated island nation which the most powerful nation in the world has placed an embargo upon. How did that happen?

[Sir Comradical]

Do Capitalists have more votes than workers, NOPE. So you try again.

more Capital doesn't equal more votes.

Jesus Fucking Chist. How many crotch X-Rays did your dad have before your parents fucked?

Political parties represent the interests of those who back them financially. This is why capitalists contribute fuck-tonnes of money to all mainstream bourgeois parties.

Try again, failtard.

[Texas Expat]

Hello lefties. I'm here to set you guys straight and introduce you to the power of the free market

You banned my friend tic_toc a little while ago, calling him a fascist. Tic toc is not a fascist, he a right libertarian. Similar to me

Now, why do you guys hate the free market? What do you think is wrong with it? I will refute all your points and show you the error of your ways.

Ask a lite, right leaning libertarian with strong objection to immigration and a strong believer in national identity and sovereignty anything.

The free market has never existed. It's always been a myth. Every market always has rules and conditions that affect prices. Once upon a time, it was thought that human labor should be "free" to the employer, hence legalized slavery. There was another time in Western history when it was OK to work children 16 hours a day 7 days a week and chain them to their work stations. Similar conditions still exist in some countries today.

All of those things I mentioned are either allowed to happen or banned based on political decisions made by a society's rulers, whether those rulers be the workers, the voters' representatives, dictators, or kings.

So your premise that if markets were just allowed to be free and then everything would be hunky-dory is a false one. Therefore, every conclusion that you reach based on that premise is flawed.

That's why I'm not a libertarian, anyway.

[#FF0000]

don't you fucking read. The government helping one side over the other isn't capitalism you fucking retards.

nope

http://www.school-clipart.com/_small/0511-0801-1613-5715.jpg

[Thug Lessons]

don't you fucking read. The government helping one side over the other isn't capitalism you fucking retards. You all have sprouted this in every one of your posts. Stop it and think of new arguments.
N7bwbl6UHU8

[Kotze]

I recently had a "debate" here with somebody who said that people help out each other in families — often without contracts, often even without an expectation of any kind of reward — and that society as a whole might be like that someday.

I said that I don't find that plausible, because people in families are more linked genetically (I'm not necessarily racist here mkay, I just mean that character is partially a result of genes and people with similar character tend to get along better) and they also know each other better than just some random person, and that IMHO doesn't simply scale up. There's a natural tendency to like one's offspring. I mean how many people say, My kid is dumb and ugly. Yet everybody knows that not everybody is beautiful.

What's your opinion on that?

[x371322]

Wow, I don't know about you guys, but this libertarian's done a fantastic job of "showing me the error of my ways." I totally see the light now. I forever renounce my evil godless communist ways, and will join him on the side of righteousness and free marketerianism.

Thanks!

[Ele'ill]

You banned my friend tic_toc a little while ago, calling him a fascist. Tic toc is not a fascist, he a right libertarian. Similar to me


Though I do not approve of certain white supremacist groups

White supremacist.

[Meridian]

http://animal.discovery.com/guides/endangered/mammals/gallery/african_wild_ass.jpg

This is a picture of a wild ass with a lot of growing up to do. I think you'll find I'm totally on topic :)
I think this is an injustice to that cute animal.

[PhoenixAsh]

You seem to be confusing the free market with Statism and Socialism. Free market works through voluntary agreement and action. No exploition can happen under this system unless collusion occurs or state helps one side over the other.


No...they do not work to voluntary agreement. Thats basically the whole idea behind capitalism and the free market enterprise. You have to eat so you have to sell your labour...basically any contract comming from that is NOT a contract out of free will

[Zav]

lol what. The free market is closest to it's truest form under libertarianism. Having the state only existing to prevent collusion, provide infrastructure, protect rights and protect our boarders means that men can freely accumulate capital and skills without the pesky government getting in the way.

So you tell me, how free enterprise and liberty can exist with an overbearing, authoritarian government telling men what they can and can't do. Because as far as I know free enterprise means voluntary transactions, not force.
You associate Socialism with the State. That is your first error. You associate the free market with liberty. That is your second. Free markets as you see them can never be truly free because businesses will exploit their workers and their consumers and corrupt the weak government to enable them to create huge dominating corporations whose only concern is profit. Economic liberty is secondary to social liberty, because ultimately people are the ones who make capital.

[Zapatas Guns]

You seem to be confusing the free market with Statism and Socialism. Free market works through voluntary agreement and action. No exploition can happen under this system unless collusion occurs or state helps one side over the other.

Why do you think all the poor countries are Statist shitholes? It's not the free markets fault.


This is fascism. You talk about "statist shitholes". Did you ever consider the damaging affects of imperialism on poorer countries? Do you ever consider how minorities in wealthy countries (ie USA) have been systemically exploited for centuries? The free market allows for slavery, child labor, pennies a day wages, etc. If you consider these things to not be exploitation then you are not that smart and if you think that it can not happen again than you do not know history.

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

The free market doesn't need to use force to get people working together.
You mean it just murders, plunders, rapes and destroys because, hey, it's cool?

[lines]

The free market is not free, it is controlled by capitalists

[Zapatas Guns]

Do Capitalists have more votes than workers, NOPE. So you try again.

more Capital doesn't equal more votes.

One man one vote is theory only. In reality people live in invisible cages. They have a false consciousness to the reality of the situation they live in. The American Dream is just that. A dream. Fantasy. The wealthy elites have all the money and political influence and they have no intention to share any of it. People think they just need to work harder, or longer, or just finish up that degree they are working on and they will succeed. What happens couldn't be further from the truth.

[alegab]

He didn't got banned for being a libertarian, I've seen plenty of them here, (not even for being a right-wing one) but for supporting the "nationalistic" policies of the UKIP, I guess

[Die Rote Fahne]

Well obviously, we have capitalism in lincoln park, it's climbin in yo govment, it's snatchin yo people up tryin to exploit em. So y'all need to hide yo kids, hide yo wife....aaand hide yo husband, cause it's exploitin errbody out here.

[miltonwasfried...man]

Ask a lite, right leaning libertarian with strong objection to immigration and a strong believer in national identity and sovereignty anything.

Too bad the aboriginals of North America that were raped, pillaged and assimilated didn't have a "strong objection to immigration". National identity my ass, call it ethnocentric racism and at least be honest with yourself.

[progressive_lefty]

The wicked thing about opposition to the 'Government' as we have seen in the USA with the Tea Party, is the fact that Government is a representative of the people. If you do not believe in Government then you don't believe in democracy. Just because someone believes in the function of Government, does NOT mean they believe in corruption or bureaucracy. It's so distasteful to see a small group of capitalists in the USA - flooding the media with anti-government sentiment, mostly because of the fact that government - if truly represented by the people - would not work to lower the conditions of the lower and middle classes - and maintain massive corporate profits. It reminds me of sad video I saw of Max Blumenthal (lefty), who went to a Tea Party rally and asked many protestors if they had healthcare. He had a lot of responses from people saying 'no I don't, but I don't believe in Government - socialist-communist-Nazi control'. That's really really sad, if you look at many developed countries, their governments - represented by the people - have nationalised healthcare in order to provide for all of their citizens.

You have a warped belief in libertarianism. My fundamental beliefs in democracy and socialism come from the idea of opportunity. If you look at the US and many other poverty stricken countries - you have an education system dominated by wealthy people NOT smart people. That makes me sick - and as a result you have presidents like George W. Bush and possibly Sarah Palin. Socialism gives people the opportunity to healthcare, education and a fair employment opportunity. But I want to say that I don't believe Socialism is perfect, it has it's flaws as well.

If you believe in libertarianism well how can you explain the individuals in America that have no healthcare or have a very very basic healthcare plan? I thought libertarianism was about the individual and their rights? Shouldn't they have a right to healthcare?

[Property Is Robbery]

Not even the majority vote would be able to change this, rule of law, not rule of people.

You're pretty fascist for a libertarian

[Jimmie Higgins]

You seem to be confusing the free market with Statism and Socialism. Free market works through voluntary agreement and action. No exploition can happen under this system unless collusion occurs or state helps one side over the other.The free market couldn't exist if it wasn't for the involuntary non-agreed apon appropriation of several continents and the modern slave trade that preceded and led to industrialization.

In the US, the growth of slavery and cotton created the surplus capital that financed merchants who then began to invest in industry. The "free-market" is the result of slavery and robbery.


Why do you think all the poor countries are Statist shitholes? It's not the free markets fault.You mean like the US during WWII and in the 1950s and 60s when the tax rate on the rich ranged between 70-90% compared to the 35% today? Considering that the US military is bigger than the rest of the world's militaries combined, and the biggest prison population in the world, the US is quite "statist" and yet "free-market" yahoos don't consider these things as "the state". It's only healthcare or job assistance that's "statist".

The modern state - even in china - serves one purpose and that is to keep capitalism on top. Why are there standing militaries; why is the US and the UK before the ones who have the largest armed forces and take over the most countries - to secure markets, resources, and trade-routes. A Navy really is only good for controlling shipping of goods and trade-ports and is necessary for the "free-market".

Why do some countries have social safty nets or a welfare state? Well it aint because governments are "socialist" and anti-free-market - just look at how people are reacting now that ruling classes are trying to get rid of all these things... protests and unrest. Social programs are the result of the system of capitalism making reforms to try and appease their populations so that the capitalist system could continue rather than be destroyed.

[RGacky3]

The free market is not free, it is controlled by capitalists


A simple but powerful truth.

[Kamos]

Ask a lite, right leaning libertarian with strong objection to immigration and a strong believer in national identity and sovereignty anything.

Can you please GTFO?

[Sasha]

Restricted and infracted the OP pending his unavoidable ban