Legalization of Prostitution

[We will rise again]

Hello Revlefters,

What are your thoughts on this?

I personally think it's good to legalize and control this, I'm sure it helps the fight against STD's by ensuring proper contraception is used, and possibly turn an illegal exploitative and criminal business (read extremely exploitative and criminal) into a legal and controlled environment, of personal choice and ending much of sexual slavery.

Does it work in Netherlands? Has it helped stop the criminal sector and pimps?

Enlighten me.

NO FLAMING!

[graymouser]

Yeah, that's a minefield you're stepping into there.

Personally, I believe it should be legalized in the immediate term and unionized, with strict work rules and so forth, mainly for the protection of the women involved in it. There are conflicting reports on how it's gone in the Netherlands, clouding the issue further.

[Robocommie]

Yeah, that's a minefield you're stepping into there.

You said it, I'm going to go make popcorn.

[We will rise again]

Yeah, that's a minefield you're stepping into there.

It's a controversial subject indeed, but nevertheless discussion is healthy.

And I agree with the unionisation.

[graymouser]

It's a controversial subject indeed, but nevertheless discussion is healthy.
That's cool and all, but there've been a couple of heated discussions about this in the past month. It hits a point with some people where rational discussion stops. Just giving you a heads up.

[Robocommie]

It hits a point with some people where rational discussion stops. Just giving you a heads up.

Don't most threads on Revleft hit that eventually, though?

[tracher999]

legalize idd nothing els to say:cool:

[ZeroNowhere]

Don't most threads on Revleft hit that eventually, though?Well, yes, but in this case not only is it on the Discrimination forum, which is just about the worst place on Revleft for rational discussion of any sort (previously, that was easily the Philosophy forum, but not so much recently), but here we've pretty much hit that already.

[Bronco]

I would agree with it's legalisation, we are all entitled to control over our own bodys after all and if a woman wants to become a prostitute she should have every right to do so. Criminalising it and forcing it underground does no good to anyone

[Anarchrusty]

The only things the Netherlands has legalised, is the pimp's status to exploit poor Eastern European women into a life of misery and hell. The Netherlands are now known for the worst human trafficking record ever.
I wouldn't call that a step forward. Would you?

[We will rise again]

The only things the Netherlands has legalised, is the pimp's status to exploit poor Eastern European women into a life of misery and hell. The Netherlands are now known for the worst human trafficking record ever.
I wouldn't call that a step forward. Would you?

Badly designed system?

[Demogorgon]

This is certainly a difficult issue. I think it should be remembered however that no mater what the legal status is there will always be prostitution and we ought to focus on the welfare of the prostitutes which means not criminalising their behaviour. That could involve only punishing those paying for sex and not those providing it, but that still drives prostitution underground and increases the dangers, so I would say it is best to legalise and regulate it.

[The Anarchist]

As long as the women/men working in the business are doing it willingly then I am fine with it being legalized. It is better than the way things go now in my opinion.

Just my 2 cents since this is a hit or miss discussion.
Nobody is going to reach a solid agreement on this, but I'd challenge everybody to.

[progressive_lefty]

It is quite depressing to think that it even exists and the people that use them. The whole point of legalisation is trying to make things safer for the workers - but like other have mentioned illegal prostitution will always exists. It seems as though the police depending on the country turn a blind eye to it. Human trafficking is disgusting..

[MattShizzle]

I agree it should be legal as long as it's voluntary - no trafficking or slavery. Though in a post-capitalist society would anyone choose to be a prostitute?

[Heathen Communist]

True enough- its current status does very little to alleviate any true social issues. It supplies organized crime with a source of income, violates the rights of thousands of women in the United States alone, and provides a medium for the transmission of Sexually Transmitted Diseases.
It should be legalized, unionized, and placed under heavy health (etc.) regulations.

[Tenka]

I think it makes very little difference either way under the capitalist system. How effectively could prostitutes really unionise if prostitution was legal? There would probably still be some operating illegally anyway -- it's not easy to find a job even if the skill requirements are fairly scant. But anyway, a socialist society wouldn't (or shouldn't, in my view) have prostitution in the true sense of the word. And encroaching on ever more subjective territory, I must say that I can't even begin to understand anyone who would feel the need to pay for sex.

[MattShizzle]

There are always some of us guys who women tend to either not like or more likely see as "just friends" material. And yeah, even if legal under capitalism it would still be way too easy to exploit the prostitutes (as is done in Nevada in the places where it's legal - iirc they have to live in the brothel and aspects of their non-working lives are strictly controlled.)

[deLarge]

Whether or not it is legal is like debating whether one's prison cell should have concrete or steel walls; it's rather beside the point. Rather, the forces which force people into prostitution in the first place should be dealt with.

That said, in the current capitalist system, as with any industry, I support unionization and regulation.

[We will rise again]

From what I can see most of us Left support the legalization and unionisation.

Truth is you can't really stop illegal prostitution that easily at all, it's the same as a war on drugs, you simply can't win. They will always be around.

So, legalization, regulation and unionisation is the step forward.

While at the same time trying to stop the illegal sector.

[Franz Fanonipants]

Prostitution was essentially legal throughout most of the American West during the nineteenth century. It was a regulated, licensed business.

Prostitution was STILL a vector for slavery, suicide, and everything else that's ugly about prostitution in its illegal form.

Legalization will change nothing about prostitution's form.

[TheLeftStar]

I support legalisation of prostitution. It'll reduce STD, HIV, end exploitation and sex trafficking!

[Book O'Dead]

Prostitution is the vilest form of human exploitation; it is a social evil. It requires a person to sell himself or herself and become the object of sexual use to another person. Prostitution corrupts and commercializes one of the most intimate aspects of human relations by turning sex (which ought to flow from friendship, compassion, empathy and love) into a mere commodity (something capitalism will do with anything it gets its bloody hand onto).

For true revolutionaries discussion about legalizing it is meaningless and sterile. Moreover, talking about unionizing "sex workers" is offensive and debases the noblest principles of worker power.

[black magick hustla]

the clerical socialists are back


For true revolutionaries discussion about legalizing it is meaningless and sterile. Moreover, talking about unionizing "sex workers" is offensive and debases the noblest principles of worker power.

"noble"? the first unionization drives were among the scum of the earth and there was a criminal element always to unionization, this is the reason why unions got mobbed up. who the hell do you think you are

[Crux]

I think buying sex and pimping should be illegal. I e the sex workers themselfes should not find themselfes charged with a crime.
Since unionization of sex worker's in the case of legal prostitution is brought up several times here I'd like to pose the question to you are you aware of any sucessfull such unions in countries prostitution is legal, like Germany and The Netherlands? AFAIK the dutch union has very few members and the german one has never participated in any struggle. At all. In a sector where you'd think there would be some issues that require struggle.

[Crux]

There are always some of us guys who women tend to either not like or more likely see as "just friends" material. And yeah, even if legal under capitalism it would still be way too easy to exploit the prostitutes (as is done in Nevada in the places where it's legal - iirc they have to live in the brothel and aspects of their non-working lives are strictly controlled.)
I think that's a pretty naive view of prostitution, it's not about sex it's about patriarchy and male dominance, as well as the capitalist commodification (that is making it into a commodity) of sex.

[durhamleft]

As can be inferred from my Ron Paul flaming match, legalise it.

[RedSonRising]

Obviously prostitution under capitalism is exploitative and legalization would allow a form of regulatory & independent control, but I don't think sex should be commodified. It's a natural part of social life, and to encourage its use as a paid service puts both service givers and costumers in positions that may harm them in the long run. It might just be my preference personally seeping into my assessment, but I would hope that people didn't need prostitution either as a means for living or as an escape or crutch replacing what they might have developed otherwise.

[We will rise again]

I was debating this with a fellow comrade from my CP's youth wing.

He said: "Exploitation of a human body should never be legal, let alone considered to be allowed."

I answered: "Well, in that case, promise me you'll never watch pornography ever again."

[MattShizzle]

If it was legal and the prostitute herself/himself wasn't under the control of anyone else why would it be a problem?

[Tenka]

I was debating this with a fellow comrade from my CP's youth wing.

He said: "Exploitation of a human body should never be legal, let alone considered to be allowed."

I answered: "Well, in that case, promise me you'll never watch pornography ever again."

Pornography is different from prostitution in that one is recorded doing the sex acts; this recording can be copied and distributed indefinitely. Many amateurs don't even expect payment because starring in porn is simply not all that time-consuming or taxing.
Prostitution requires ones body to be fit for sex and at least reasonably non-reprehensible looks-wise for as long as it's in use, and letting your body be used regularly by strangers to put food on the table somehow lacks the glamour of porn stardom; it's more precarious an occupation and risky in general, regardless of how well-regulated it is. The working conditions of porn stars and prostitutes are not quite similar in my view.

[Franz Fanonipants]

I was debating this with a fellow comrade from my CP's youth wing.

He said: "Exploitation of a human body should never be legal, let alone considered to be allowed."

I answered: "Well, in that case, promise me you'll never watch pornography ever again."

It's a fair cop.

[miltonwasfried...man]

Women are objects to be "rented"? What? I don't think so. Prostitution is a sign of a rotting, sickly society and steps should be made to eliminate it. We should uplift, encourage and help those who are in bad situations and forced to do such demoralizing things. Those who use prostitues should be helped also. Comrades can help them become better people, and realize lust will not make them happy. Legalizing prostitution sounds an awful lot like free market jargon to me.

[We will rise again]

Starring in porn is simply not all that time-consuming or taxing.Not taxing or time-consuming? You think porn stars work 30 min a day? They are actors, and their bosses expect them to work like anybody else.


Prostitution requires ones body to be fit for sex and at least reasonably non-reprehensible looks-wise for as long as it's in useNot true, there are plenty of not very attractive prostitutes on the road in my country, sitting on a chair waiting for the next customer, this comment shows you don't know what your talking about.


and letting your body be used regularly by strangers to put food on the table somehow lacks the glamour of porn stardom
Porn stars are paid to have sex with strangers so they can eat, it's exactly the same thing, except there's a camera.


The working conditions of porn stars and prostitutes are not quite similar in my view.Of course the conditions for porn stars is better, because it's a legal job, with working rights like any other.

[Tenka]

Not taxing or time-consuming? You think porn stars work 30 min a day? They are actors, and their bosses expect them to work like anybody else.
Not all porn stars have "bosses" or do it as a "job", and it is not nearly as time-consuming as prostitution in any case.


Not true, there are plenty of not very attractive prostitutes on the road in my country, sitting on a chair waiting for the next customer, this comment shows you don't know what your talking about.
This comment shows you didn't look very closely at what I said. Prostitutes have to be physically able to satisfy a customer if they are to expect payment; they cannot be completely repulsive to look at or touch, and most of them probably can't do their jobs with a very debilitating illness. I never suggested prostitutes had to be attractive. I've never seen an attractive prostitute.


Porn stars are paid to have sex with strangers so they can eat, it's exactly the same thing, except there's a camera.
It's not the same thing. Porn stars are actors plain and simple, acting out sex acts with other actors. They may be payed for it, they may not. It's not the same as physically engaging with strangers on a regular basis, which is what a prostitute is payed for. Porn stars are payed for the recordings they make (professional ones anyway).


Of course the conditions for porn stars is better, because it's a legal job, with working rights like any other.
The legality isn't all that explains better working conditions. I don't think prostitution under any circumstances would have working conditions which compared favourably to those of a mainstream porn star, for example.

[Luís Henrique]

I must say that I can't even begin to understand anyone who would feel the need to pay for sex.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l2r5vskKtH1qbxs82o1_400.jpghttp://mystuffspace.com/graphic/prod_227_5921.jpghttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/_B1LlYh6iKqs/StEsyHLUUHI/AAAAAAAABEU/79YTmTUFhY8/s400/funny-ugly-people-2.jpghttp://ui20.gamespot.com/1427/l67f0d4003e232b59078f92871c2c86b4_2.png

Maybe images can explain it better?

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

I don't think sex should be commodified.

I don't think baking bread shoul be commodified, either.

Luís Henrique

[We will rise again]

and it is not nearly as time-consuming as prostitution in any case.

Why?


It's not the same as physically engaging with strangers on a regular basis

How not?


they cannot be completely repulsive to look at or touch

Same as porn actors, they are contracted often on their looks.

[Tenka]

Why?



How not?
These questions make me wonder if you really understood anything I posted. It's really simple: a porn actor is recorded having sex with other actors, this recording is copied and sold by the company or pornographer (the latter of which may be the porn actor his/herself; also this excludes amateurs who may make porn for no compensation with friends or spouses). A prostitute, on the other hand, has to directly sell (or be sold) their sex to strangers. Can you seriously not see how these are different?


Same as porn actors, they are contracted often on their looks.

Obviously they are often contracted on their looks, but what does it mean for the product (the recording) if the actor gets old and saggy and obese and crippled? Nothing. The recording is a static thing. If the same happens to a prostitute, business is sure to go sour except in some really small niche markets.

[Sword and Shield]

I was debating this with a fellow comrade from my CP's youth wing.

He said: "Exploitation of a human body should never be legal, let alone considered to be allowed."

I answered: "Well, in that case, promise me you'll never watch pornography ever again."

I've only seen pornography once, and that was to make sure I would know what I was talking about when I argued against it. I'll never see it again.

[9]

I've only seen pornography once, and that was to make sure I would know what I was talking about when I argued against it. I'll never see it again.

A) Bullshit.
B) You are a troll.

:)

[agnixie]

Prostitution was essentially legal throughout most of the American West during the nineteenth century. It was a regulated, licensed business.

Prostitution was STILL a vector for slavery, suicide, and everything else that's ugly about prostitution in its illegal form.

Legalization will change nothing about prostitution's form.

And that's why we need to make things harder on the workers involved. Got it.
BTW, the swedish model is a complete failure according to recent reports. Making the buying of sexual services illegal has effects almost as bad as arresting the prostitutes.

[black magick hustla]

i couldnt watch porn for a year because i didnt have a computer and i cant bust a nut in the library

[Robocommie]

i cant bust a nut in the library

Quitters never win

[Crux]

And that's why we need to make things harder on the workers involved. Got it.
BTW, the swedish model is a complete failure according to recent reports. Making the buying of sexual services illegal has effects almost as bad as arresting the prostitutes.
Recent reports by whom? You know most experts say that using weasel-words is bad arguing.
And I mean I have yet to see anyone be able to shw me where exactly legalization of buying sex has been beneficial for the sexworkers. See, technically, I am for legal prostitution as much as every other guy (or so it seems) here on revleft. Only I think it is *slightly* more complicated than "hey it's automatically better for sexworkers if it's legal to buy sex. somehow." and "oh ugly people need to buy prostitutes" (which is just a horrible argument in so so many ways).
But yeah, legalize prostitution. Criminalize buying sex and pimping.

[agnixie]

Recent reports by whom? You know most experts say that using weasel-words is bad arguing.
And I mean I have yet to see anyone be able to shw me where exactly legalization of buying sex has been beneficial for the sexworkers. See, technically, I am for legal prostitution as much as every other guy (or so it seems) here on revleft. Only I think it is *slightly* more complicated than "hey it's automatically better for sexworkers if it's legal to buy sex. somehow." and "oh ugly people need to buy prostitutes" (which is just a horrible argument in so so many ways).
But yeah, legalize prostitution. Criminalize buying sex and pimping.

I'm not "any other guy", I'm a woman who has been a sex worker.

The Skarhed report was flawed and had no methodology besides, seemingly, confirmation bias. The Malmö police had reports that violence had increased in the period, and the researcher for the human trafficking unit of the swedish police board went from saying it was a success in 2007 to saying it had been an abject failure three years later, after they figured out from street census that it had only taken prostitution and trafficking underground.

The problem is not buying sex, it's not prostitution, it's the way things are controlled. The only places where it's legalized tend to make it in such a situation that pimps and madames are almost required by law. While the swedish model gives power to pimps by driving people underground.

I'll also note that pimping is generally taken so widely by law enforcement that just tag teaming with a friend for safety is generally seen as "pimping".

[agnixie]

Also I'll add that prostitution on the scale of some places is a symptom of issues, not a cause. If you don't change the material conditions of the sex workers (excepting trafficking, which is a crime anyway and which does have a material condition element just as sweatshop workers who are forced into it still have material condition elements - so largely working class women, but working class queer men and women too quite a bit), you're not going to "end" prostitution.

[9]

I am for legal prostitution as much as every other guy (or so it seems) here on revleft.

I don't know what thread you're reading BTW, but I guess its not this one.

[t.shonku]

I may sound a little weird but the fact is that when I see a prostitute I feel bad about that girl or woman , they just like any other girl deserve a normal life, I personally think the brothels must be closed down and prostitutes working there must be given industrial training or other training like sewing and stuff like that and be given a new way to live, selling flesh is not a life, these poor girls deserve better life,they must be liberated !

[t.shonku]

Also I'll add that prostitution on the scale of some places is a symptom of issues, not a cause. If you don't change the material conditions of the sex workers


In third world country prostitutes are generally forced to do what they do.

Anyways I have often seen that the authorities treat the prostitutes like criminals which is very bad, I think the society is the real criminal which has forced these poor girls into doing this things, these poor girls are just unfortunate.

[Book O'Dead]

the clerical socialists are back



"noble"? the first unionization drives were among the scum of the earth and there was a criminal element always to unionization, this is the reason why unions got mobbed up. who the hell do you think you are

To answer the last question: I am Book.
The first question is insulting and a provocation, coming from a "moderator" whose first concern ought to be to maintain a certain degree of decorum so that a discussion does not become a shouting match.
Yes, sir, NOBLE is the word that describes the aspiration of workers seeking economic power through unity. To describe it otherwise is an attack on the very basis of Marxian communism.

Also, in case I forget, the phrase "criminal element" is a bourgeois phrase commonly used against the enemies of private property and exploitation.

I ask you this question: Whom do YOU serve?

[Slavicrevolution1991]

As long as it does not turn into huge human traficking like it is in the former combloc
Unionize it, frequent checkeups an is all good

[Luís Henrique]

In third world country prostitutes are generally forced to do what they do.

I live in a third world country. I can assure you that the above is false - unless you are thinking of "forced" in the same way each and every worker is forced to work: either you do it, or you don't earn money to buy your necessities. "White slavery", as it used to be called, certainly exists, but it is very, very minoritary. It is indeed more common for Brazilian prostitutes to be enslaved abroad, after being attracted to first world countries under false promises, than in the country itself.


Anyways I have often seen that the authorities treat the prostitutes like criminals which is very bad, I think the society is the real criminal which has forced these poor girls into doing this things, these poor girls are just unfortunate.

A society cannot be a criminal. The truth here is simple: there is no crime, prostitution harms nobody except in the way capitalism does, and trying to suppress it without suppressing capitalism can only result in more misery, more exploitation... and more "immorality" for what is worth.

Luís Henrique

[28350]

I've only seen pornography once, and that was to make sure I would know what I was talking about when I argued against it. I'll never see it again.

This explains so much

[Robocommie]

Also I'll add that prostitution on the scale of some places is a symptom of issues, not a cause. If you don't change the material conditions of the sex workers (excepting trafficking, which is a crime anyway and which does have a material condition element just as sweatshop workers who are forced into it still have material condition elements - so largely working class women, but working class queer men and women too quite a bit), you're not going to "end" prostitution.

I had thought that was assumed, though. I mean, no social problem will be dealt with, not completely, without the proper tools to do so, tools which happen to be socialist.

[Lumpen Bourgeois]

I've only seen pornography once, and that was to make sure I would know what I was talking about when I argued against it. I'll never see it again.

You must have the best pop-up blocker ever.

[thesadmafioso]

No, the body is not a commodity to be sold in such a crude and uncivilized fashion. It is an industry which is inherently biased towards the exploration of females and thus it is a prime example of the promotion of inequality. When taken into the context of capitalist society, it is something which many females are forced into due to poor economic circumstance, and its legalization would only further encourage such undesirable trends.

Everything about the profession is deplorable in most every way, there is quite literally no circumstance wherein I can see it as being acceptable for any leftist to advocate for its allowance. A female may do what she wishes with her body, but when you add capital into the equation you destroy the liberty of sexual association. The integrity of equality between the sexes is torn apart by permittance of this reactionary act.

[Magón]

I've only seen pornography once, and that was to make sure I would know what I was talking about when I argued against it. I'll never see it again.

I don't really want to drag this line any further than it needs to, but I just want to know: If you've only seen porn once in your life, and you're not blatantly lying on the internet (which I'm not saying you are or aren't), then how can you have a good definitive stance on it? You can't really define your stance on a subject, if you've only seen a little video/pictures of it.

[Franz Fanonipants]

And that's why we need to make things harder on the workers involved. Got it.
BTW, the swedish model is a complete failure according to recent reports. Making the buying of sexual services illegal has effects almost as bad as arresting the prostitutes.

What's really cool about RevLeft is that apparently you don't have to read to post.

That said, gtfo you terrible scrub I didn't say anything about "making things harder" on sex workers. The legal status of prostitution means nothing as long as capitalism exists. You're a bunch of dumbfucks if you think otherwise.

[t.shonku]

I live in a third world country. I can assure you that the above is false - unless you are thinking of "forced" in the same way each and every worker is forced to work: either you do it, or you don't earn money to buy your necessities. "White slavery", as it used to be called, certainly exists, but it is very, very minoritary. It is indeed more common for Brazilian prostitutes to be enslaved abroad, after being attracted to first world countries under false promises, than in the country itself.






I was not talking about Brazil ! Brazil is not the only third world country, I was talking about Asia , as an Asian myself I think I am more than qualified than you in Asian matters

[Luís Henrique]

I was not talking about Brazil ! Brazil is not the only third world country, I was talking about Asia , as an Asian myself I think I am more than qualified than you in Asian matters

Then say "Asia" instead of "Third World".

Luís Henrique

[Anarchrusty]

I don't really want to drag this line any further than it needs to, but I just want to know: If you've only seen porn once in your life, and you're not blatantly lying on the internet (which I'm not saying you are or aren't), then how can you have a good definitive stance on it? You can't really define your stance on a subject, if you've only seen a little video/pictures of it.

What bullshit. I once saw a man drowning. Do I need to see another one go to his death before I can decide it was horrible?

Annoying little misogyny apologists all the time............ :(

[Tim Finnegan]

What bullshit. I once saw a man drowning. Do I need to see another one go to his death before I can decide it was horrible?
That analogy doesn't make any sense, on any level. I really am beginning to think that your entire body of posts here is some elaborate-yet-clumsy satire.

[VirgJans12]

Legalization and Unionfication. It'll counter illegal activities and we can keep an eye on it.

Apparently 9 in 10 Dutch prostitutes have no STD. Because they have to be checked every month by law. Most of them who do probably work illegal.

Also, madams/pimps are not allowed to give them a working schedule. So they can work whenever and for how long they want.

[Agapi]

Sex workers need empowerment, and they need it immediately. Forcibly taking their jobs away from them (read: denigrating them and pushing them even further underground) or daydreaming about vague social welfare will do nothing to ease their plight.

[Book O'Dead]

Some of you just don't seem to get it.

Prostitution is an occupation involving the most abject exploitation, submission and, in most cases, humiliation. Why should anyone want to organize to perpetuate and validate those evils when the whole purpose of genuine unionism is to empower and emancipate?

While some in Revleft are being unjustly restricted or banned for standing firm on more or less debatable political principles and views, why is this sort of discussion being tolarated and even defended by this forum's moderators?

FOR SHAME!

[Book O'Dead]

Sex workers need empowerment, and they need it immediately. Forcibly taking their jobs away from them (read: denigrating them and pushing them even further underground) or daydreaming about vague social welfare will do nothing to ease their plight.

You entirely miss the point. Prostitution is not a legitimate proletarian occupation, it is the debasement of the individual for the purpose of someone else's misplaced and perverse sexual gratification.

Even bourgeois morality recognizes this obvious fact by enacting more or less useless laws that forbid and punish sexual harrasment in the workplace.

In advocating for the unionization of hookers some may no dobt be motivated by noble and compassionate sentiments, but to me this is just another example of the road to hell being paved with good intentions.

[please see my post about Luis Buñuel's "Belle de jour" in the Film & Literature forum]

[Hebrew Hammer]

I am against the legalization of prostitution. I think we should be making it easier, more equal and more fair for women to exceed in other areas of work instead of having them subjecting and objectifying themselves just to make a livable wage. The only possible reason I would personally consent to prostitution being legalized is to get rid of the oppressive and dangerous 'pimp-ho' dynamic of the 'profession' and give the sex workers more rights and control over their own 'business'. Even still, gambling is still legal but you have illegal gambling being done in underground places, same could probably happen if prostitution were legal. Prostitutes who don't want to be checked for STDS, can't pass an STD check, drug addicts, boozers, etc. who knows, any variety of situations could happen. For those who may get pissy about my position on this, I'm sorry, I don't like to see women as disposable sex objects.

[Agapi]

Some of you just don't seem to get it.

Prostitution is an occupation involving the most abject exploitation, submission and, in most cases, humiliation. Why should anyone want to organize to perpetuate and validate those evils when the whole purpose of genuine unionism is to empower and emancipate?

While some in Revleft are being unjustly restricted or banned for standing firm on more or less debatable political principles and views, why is this sort of discussion being tolarated and even defended by this forum's moderators?

FOR SHAME!

Exploitation of sex workers happens because of a dearth of resources and organizational power, not the act they engage in. Unless you have an immediate and better option for sex workers hiding in your sleeve, shut the fuck up with your obnoxious, privileged moralizing.

[Book O'Dead]

Exploitation of sex workers happens because of a dearth of resources and organizational power, not the act they engage in. Unless you have an immediate and better option for sex workers hiding in your sleeve, shut the fuck up with your obnoxious, privileged moralizing.

Missing the point must be your principal occupation, Agapi. Prostitution, in and of itself is a form of exploitation to be avoided and abolished. No ammount of unionizing will change that. Unless, of course, you advocate the type of unionism against which Marx warned when he advised workers to incript on their banners the slogan, "An End To The Wages System!"

[Dr Mindbender]

Missing the point must be your principal occupation, Agapi. Prostitution, in and of itself is a form of exploitation to be avoided and abolished.

Moralising aside, prostitution preceded capitalism by a long long way and will likely survive capitalism for a long way. I'm not sure you can simply 'abolish' something that is so embedded into human culture.

Moreover prohibition doesnt work. It doesnt work against drug trafficking or abuse and it doesnt work against the sex trade. All it does is push these people off the social radar and into the mists of worsened social adversity.

[Agapi]

Missing the point must be your principal occupation, Agapi. Prostitution, in and of itself is a form of exploitation to be avoided and abolished. No ammount of unionizing will change that. Unless, of course, you advocate the type of unionism against which Marx warned when he advised workers to incript on their banners the slogan, "An End To The Wages System!"

Go on, then. Try to abolish sex work under capitalism. You won't gain the favor of sex workers in the process, because all you would be doing is taking away any avenue for safe labor they might have possessed.

You'll only make it clear that you're a reactionary and an enemy of women.

[Hebrew Hammer]

Go on, then. Try to abolish sex work under capitalism. You won't gain the favor of sex workers in the process, because all you would be doing is taking away any avenue for safe labor they might have possessed.

Are you saying that prostitution is a avenue for 'safe labor' under under capitalism?

Or that currently in Western capitalist countries were it is illegal, it is also an avenue for 'safe labor'?

[Agapi]

Are you saying that prostitution is a avenue for 'safe labor' under under capitalism?

Or that currently in Western capitalist countries were it is illegal, it is also an avenue for 'safe labor'?

Neither. I'm saying that successfully unionized and empowered sex work is safer than criminalized, underground sex work.

[Tim Finnegan]

Prostitution is an occupation involving the most abject exploitation, submission and, in most cases, humiliation. Why should anyone want to organize to perpetuate and validate those evils when the whole purpose of genuine unionism is to empower and emancipate?
Funny choice of words, that.

[Crux]

Legalization and Unionfication. It'll counter illegal activities and we can keep an eye on it.

Apparently 9 in 10 Dutch prostitutes have no STD. Because they have to be checked every month by law. Most of them who do probably work illegal.

Also, madams/pimps are not allowed to give them a working schedule. So they can work whenever and for how long they want.
How does it counter illegal traficcing in practicality? I thought, rather that with the increase of the legal side the illegal side increase as well?

We all know that the "can" in a capitalist society is usuallly questionable as in: "It is no problem to get fired, you can always get another job."

[VirgJans12]

How does it counter illegal traficcing in practicality? I thought, rather that with the increase of the legal side the illegal side increase as well?

We all know that the "can" in a capitalist society is usuallly questionable as in: "It is no problem to get fired, you can always get another job."

It's like weed for example. That's also legal in my country. It's sold in coffee shops everywhere. Therefore no one goes through the trouble of finding some shady figure to buy it from, and taking the risk of getting caught. In the shop it's easy to get and legal.

The same goes for prostitution. And if the illegal side doesn't get any customers, because going to a legal prostitute is easy and legal, they are forced to either legalize or quit as well. These girls will then work legal, and we can start keeping an eye on them. Or they'll quit the business.

[Comrade_Oscar]

The subject of legalizing prostitution is a really sensitive subject. Personally I don't think it will hurt society very badly because it is already a problem. But protection should be offered to the prostitute.

[Book O'Dead]

Go on, then. Try to abolish sex work under capitalism. You won't gain the favor of sex workers in the process, because all you would be doing is taking away any avenue for safe labor they might have possessed.

You'll only make it clear that you're a reactionary and an enemy of women.

Talk is cheap, Agapi. To propose legalization and unionization of wage whore work under capitalism poses a number of practical problems not the least of which would be "wage" differentials between high-paid Las Vegas call girls and your average run-of-the-mill street hooker that'll blow you in a car for $20.

Never mind the incoherence about formally turning the political state into a sponsor of prostitution and the labor union into a pimp! It's already happened in ways you seem incapable of imagining.

In the name of I-don't-know-what you're defending an naive, absurd unworkable scheme that only makes you and others sound ridiculous and irrelevant.

And while we're at it, let m remind you and anyone else interested in this sterile discussion that what you are advocating is a reform measure that in no way advances the general interest of the working class. Moreover, reforms under capitalism are actually concealed measures of reaction. So, in actually, the one sounding very much like a reactionary is you and not I.
Besides, to want to perpetuate prostitution in spite of its inherent evil is as anti-woman and anti-feminist as anyone can get.

[Agapi]

I'll listen to what sex workers want before you spieling incoherently about knowing their interests better than they do.

"Concealed measure of reaction" indeed. Suffer well, whores!

[Luís Henrique]

Talk is cheap, Agapi. To propose legalization and unionization of wage whore work under capitalism poses a number of practical problems not the least of which would be "wage" differentials between high-paid Las Vegas call girls and your average run-of-the-mill street hooker that'll blow you in a car for $20.

If prostitution is legalised, how is it going to be for a wage?

Capitalists reduce workers to wage-labour because they own the means of production, but prostitution does not require any means of production - how would then any capitalist be able to wage-exploit prostitutes?

Luís Henrique

[Tim Finnegan]

If prostitution is legalised, how is it going to be for a wage?

Capitalists reduce workers to wage-labour because they own the means of production, but prostitution does not require any means of production - how would then any capitalist be able to wage-exploit prostitutes?

Luís Henrique
It's quite likely that legalised prostitution would mostly take the form of brothels and escort agents, in which the means of production, such as they are, take the form of facilities and infrastructure. (Noting that some models may obscure an essentially piece-work system behind legal façades that present individual prostitutes as independent workers in a tenant-landlord relationship with the brothel-owners.)

Edit: It should probably made clear that this was more of a "well, technically" sort of post, rather than an argument in favour of Book O'Dead's points. I come down on the pro-legalisation side, here.

[Luís Henrique]

It's quite likely that legalised prostitution would mostly take the form of brothels and escort agents, in which the means of production, such as they are, take the form of facilities and infrastructure. (Noting that some models may obscure an essentially piece-work system behind legal façades that present individual prostitutes as independent workers in a tenant-landlord relationship with the brothel-owners.)

Well, probably, but this practically mandates the law to provide for the existence of capitalist bosses - it must be some kind of formal submission of workers - which is much more visible than the "normal" "real" depossession of labourers.

But of course this would depend on the particular form of legalisation - and we surely should strive for the most radical form of legalisation, the most favourable for prostitutes, that we (and them) can think of.

But any legalisation is better than illegality. Even semilegality is preferable to criminalisation.

Luís Henrique