Would you recommend reading the bible, koran, torah?

[CesareBorgia]

I never read any of these books. I have never been religious and never had any interest.

But I've been thinking how influential these books are, and that there are a lot of references to these books in many other works, including the works of Marx and Marxists, that go over my head.

Thanks.

[Commissar Rykov]

I find reading no matter what the material is enlightening and at least gives you information on what various groups believe. I have personally read the Qur'an and Bible myself.

[We will rise again]

I find reading no matter what the material is enlightening and at least gives you information on what various groups believe. I have personally read the Qur'an and Bible myself.

You like fairy tails? :rolleyes:

Which of the 2 did you find most interesting?

[Leftie]

When people criticize communism I generally reply 'How can you criticize an ideology which you know nothing about? Have you ever actually read Marx?' (to which they always reply no :rolleyes:)

It would be hypocritical to then go and criticise certain religions without actualy knowing in depth what their beliefs are.

I would most definitely recommend reading these books.

[WeAreReborn]

Well if you are interested in reading them and have the time, then go for it. I personally don't find them that interesting but it is all a matter of taste. It definitely isn't a necessary read, but again if you are interested then of course read them.

[Astarte]

I never read any of these books. I have never been religious and never had any interest.

But I've been thinking how influential these books are, and that there are a lot of references to these books in many other works, including the works of Marx and Marxists, that go over my head.

Thanks.

Even if you are an atheist you should at least be familiar with Abrahamic religion since ... you know, like Christianity and Islam are like the world's biggest religions and Judaism is the source of them both ... oh, and the global political situation too, or something like that.

[Commissar Rykov]

You like fairy tails? :rolleyes:

Which of the 2 did you find most interesting?

Tales not Tails. It is this kind of behavior that I find utterly self-defeating in regards to the Revolutionary Left.

As to your question I actually found the Qur'an much more interesting but that might have been because I hadn't grown up around it. I definitely urged my fellow Americans after 9/11 to read it but unfortunately they were too busy looking for blood and ignoring American Blowback.

[bricolage]

I've heard the Koran is very beautiful to read in Arabic but in anything else you lose most of the poetics. I've always found the book of revelation pretty good going if you are into the end of the world shit. I think in the Old Testament and Torah you get all the interesting vengeful God but you get all the boring begat begat begat stuff too so it's here and there. Dunno really, I've never read any all the way through.

[Astarte]

I've heard the Koran is very beautiful to read in Arabic but in anything else you lose most of the poetics. I've always found the book of revelation pretty good going if you are into the end of the world shit. I think in the Old Testament and Torah you get all the interesting vengeful God but you get all the boring begat begat begat stuff too so it's here and there. Dunno really, I've never read any all the way through.

Yeah, Revelation of St. John the Divine is pretty good, and so is the Book of Daniel. Also, Exodus is basically a national liberation story.

[Comrade J]

Definitely you should read some of these books! They are ancient texts that have been compiled over centuries, giving a glimpse of society thousands of years ago, which is really interesting. Just a pity that people believe them to be true.

I feel I know parts of the Bible better than many Christians - not necessarily able to quote, but knowing the history of some of the texts, who actually wrote them and when etc. which gives you a lot of credit in a debate. Also check out sites that refute parts of the Bible with logical reasoning, archaeological and empirical facts, such as jesusneverexisted.com which has some excellent essays, which quote Bible verses and weigh them against the evidence. This one (http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/nazareth.html[/url) is one I particularly enjoyed reading, it's about Nazareth (where Jesus was apparently from) and how it in fact didn't exist at the time, nor does it have any of the geological features around it that the gospels claim.

I can only really talk about the Bible, though I did read a good bulk of the Qu'ran about 4-5 years ago, and texts about its context and Islamic beliefs in general, so as to be able to debate well with a couple of my friends at college who were muslim but on the verge of atheism or at least agnosticism.

[x359594]

Given that the Bible, the Quaran and the Tanakh are seminal works underlying the premises of the Abrahamic religions as well as much of Western culture, it's worth being familiar with them.

[graymouser]

Cultural literacy today pretty much requires reading these three books. They're long, and at times quite boring; but it's worth going through and understanding what's actually in the Bible. God doesn't exactly come off as somebody I'd worship in any of the versions, although I think some of what Jesus is supposed to have said isn't bad.

With the Hebrew and Christian Bibles, a lot of the translations are quite contentious. The King James Version is the literary gold standard for English, and you really should read it when you get a chance, but a lot of the vocabulary is archaic and the sources were not as good as the ones we have today. Among modern translations, the New Revised Standard Version is generally the best but it's controversial because it tries to "correct" sexist language (i.e. using "brothers and sisters" rather than "brothers") and doesn't translate the word "almah" in Isaiah 7:14 (the verse referenced for Jesus' virgin birth, although it wasn't a prophecy) as "virgin."

The Qu'ran translations are also contentious, especially because many people say you can't find a good one period. I like the translation by M.A.S. Abdel Haleem, put out by Oxford World's Classics, as a very readable prose translation.

[the last donut of the night]

depends. i'm not familiar with the koran or the torah, but i decently know the bible. the book of psalms and the song of songs are the most beautiful books of the bible, in my opinion. if you're interested in more epic stuff, check out the pentateuch and revelations (however understanding revelations is a far more difficult thing, seeing it's full of symbolism obvious to 1st/2nd century christians but very obscure to most people today).

[9]

depends. i'm not familiar with [...] the torah, but i decently know the bible.

If you "decently know the bible", then you are familiar with the Torah. The Torah = the five books of Moses (in English: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy).

[The Man]

It's one of the best fiction books ever. I highly suggest them.

:laugh:

[Nolan]

Yes, and the best thing is the Torah comes with the Bible. :)

[miltonwasfried...man]

If you like murder, insest, genocide and vengence the old testament is right on the money.

[Rooster]

You should also read the bible if you have any interest in renaissance art. Ever wonder who those dudes where sitting at the table with Jesus? It's in the bible. Some of the modern updates to it are pretty funny though. Particularly the London Cockney bible where they refer to God as Guv, as it "Alright, governor?".

[Johnny Kerosene]

I've heard the Koran is very beautiful to read in Arabic.

I've heard this as well. As far as the Bible goes, I wouldn't waste time reading it, though it probably would be good to have some understanding of what goes on in it. The only part of the bible really worth reading is this.

"2 Kings 2:23-24 (King James Version)

23And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

24And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them."

[Magón]

I've only ever read parts of the Bible, but mostly as a kid who didn't understand, and only a few times when I was older to point things out that were relative to whatever discussion I was having about it.

But the only good thing I ever got from the Bible was years later.


The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who in the name of charity and goodwill shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

Never ready the Quran or Torah, neither really interested me.

[Rakhmetov]

We should read these books as they should be read--- as literature like reading Ovid's Metamorphoses or Iliad, Odyssey, Aeneid. We do not believe in Zeus or the godess Athena as the ancient Greeks and Romans did but these Greek and Roman works are the foundation of western literature like the Bible and Koran and you only render yourself ignorant if you neglect to study them. We, however, should not read them as the religious fundamentalist read them--- that is literally.

There are also many biblical phrases that have entered the English language from the King James version of the Bible. Richard Dawkins in his book The God Delusion says this:

(From Chapter 9 of The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins)

I must admit that even I am a little taken aback at the biblical ignorance commonly displayed by people educated in more recent decades than I was. Or maybe it isn't a decade thing. As long ago as 1954, according to Robert Hinde in his thoughtful book, Why Gods Persist, a Gallup Poll in the United States of America found the following. Three quarters of Catholics and Protestants could not name a single Old Testament prophet. More than two thirds didn't know who preached the Sermon on the Mount. A substantial number thought that Moses was one of Jesus's twelve apostles. That, to repeat, was in the United States, which is notoriously more religious than other parts of the developed world.

The King James Authorized English translation includes passages of outstanding literary merit in its own right, for example the Song of Songs and the sublime Ecclesiastes. But the main reason the Bible needs to be part of our education is that it is a major source book for literary culture. The same applies to the legends of the Greek and Roman gods, and we learn about them without being asked to believe in them. Here is a quick list of biblical, or bible-inspired phrases or sentences which occur commonly in literary or conversational English, from great poetry to hackneyed cliché, from proverb to table talk.



Be fruitful and multiply • East of Eden • Adam's Rib • Am I my brother's keeper? • The mark of Cain • As old as Methuselah • A mess of potage • Sold his birthright • Jacob's ladder • Coat of many colours • Amid the alien corn • Eyeless in Gaza • The fat of the land • The fatted calf • Stranger in a strange land • Burning bush • A land flowing with milk and honey • Let my people go • Flesh pots • An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth • Be sure your sin will find you out • The apple of his eye • The stars in their courses • Butter in a lordly dish • The hosts of Midian • Shibboleth • Out of the strong came forth sweetness • He smote them hip and thigh • Philistine • A man after his own heart • Like David and Jonathan • Passing the love of women • How are the mighty fallen? • Ewe lamb • Man of Belial • Jezebel • Queen of Sheba • Wisdom of Solomon • The half was not told me • Girded up his loins • Drew a bow at a venture • Job's comforters • The patience of Job • I am escaped with the skin of my teeth • The price of wisdom is above rubies • Leviathan • Go to the ant thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise. • Spare the rod and spoil the child • A word in season • Vanity of vanities • To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose • The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong • Of making many books there is no end • I am the rose of Sharon • A garden inclosed • The little foxes • Many waters cannot quench love • Beat their swords into plowshares • Grind the faces of the poor • The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid • Let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we shall die • Set thine house in order • A voice crying in the wilderness • No peace for the wicked • See eye to eye • Cut off out of the land of the living • Balm in Gilead • Can the leopard change his spots? • The parting of the ways • A Daniel in the lions' den • They have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind • Sodom and Gomorrah • Man shall not live by bread alone • Get thee behind me Satan • The salt of the earth • Hide your light under a bushel • Turn the other cheek • Go the extra mile • Moth and rust doth corrupt • Cast your pearls before swine • Wolf in sheeps' clothing • Weeping and gnashing of teeth • Gadarene swine • New wine in old bottles • Shake off the dust of your feet • He that is not with me is against me • Judgment of Solomon • Fell upon stony ground • A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country • The crumbs from the table • Sign of the times • Den of thieves • Pharisee • Whited sepulchre • Wars and rumours of wars • Good and faithful servant • Separate the sheep from the goats • I wash my hands of it • The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath • Suffer the little children • The widow's mite • Physician heal thyself • Good Samaritan •Passed by on the other side • Grapes of wrath • Lost sheep • Prodigal son • A great gulf fixed • Whose shoe latchet I am not worthy to unloose • Cast the first stone • Jesus wept • Greater love hath no man than this • Doubting Thomas • Road to Damascus • A law unto himself • Through a glass darkly • Death, where is thy sting? • A thorn in the flesh • Fallen from grace • Filthy lucre • The root of all evil • Fight the good fight • All flesh is as grass • The weaker vessel • I am Alpha and Omega • Armageddon • De profundis • Quo vadis • Rain on the just and on the unjust

All of these idioms, phrases or clichés come directly from the King James Authorized translation of the Bible. Surely unfamiliarity with the Bible is bound to impoverish one's appreciation of English literature. And not just solemn and serious literature. The following rhyme by Lord Justice Bowen is ingeniously witty:



The rain it raineth on the just,

And also on the unjust fella.

But chiefly on the just, because

The unjust hath the just's umbrella.

But the enjoyment is muffled if you can't take the allusion to Matthew 5: 45 ("For he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust"). Or, from My Fair Lady, the fine point of Eliza Dolittle's fantasy would escape anybody ignorant of John the Baptist's end:



"Thanks a lot, King," says I in a manner well bred,

"But all I want is 'Enry 'Iggins' 'ead."

P G Wodehouse is, for my money, the greatest writer of light comedy in the language, and I bet fully half my list of biblical phrases will be found as allusions within his pages. (A Google search will not find all of them, however. It will miss the derivation of the short story title, 'The Aunt and the Sluggard' from Proverbs 6: 6.) The Wodehouse canon is rich in other biblical phrases, not in my list above and not incorporated into the language as idioms or proverbs. Listen to Bertie Wooster's evocation of what it is like to wake up with a bad hangover:



I had been dreaming that some bounder was driving spikes through my head — not just ordinary spikes, as used by Jael the wife of Heber, but red-hot ones.

Bertie himself was immensely proud of his only scholastic achievement, the prize he once earned for scripture knowledge.

What is true of comic writing in English is more obviously true of serious literature. Naseeb Shaheen's tally of more than 1300 biblical references in Shakespeare's works is widely cited and very believable. The Bible Literacy Report published in Fairfax, Virginia (admittedly financed by the infamous Templeton Foundation) provides many examples, and cites overwhelming agreement by teachers of English literature that biblical literacy is essential to full appreciation of their subject. Doubtless the same is true of French, German, Russian, and other great European literatures. And, for speakers of Arabic and Indian languages, knowledge of the Koran or the Bhagavad Gita are presumably just as essential for full appreciation of their literary heritage. Finally, to round off the list, you can't appreciate Wagner (whose music, as has been wittily said, is better than it sounds) without knowing your way around the Norse gods.

Let me not labour the point. I have probably said enough to convince at least my older readers that an atheistic world view provides no justification for cutting the bible, and other sacred books, out of our education. I think the important thing to learn is that we can retain a sentimental loyalty to the cultural and literary traditions of, say, Judaism, Anglicanism or Islam, and even participate in religious rituals such as marriages and funerals, without buying into the supernatural beliefs that historically went along with those traditions. We can give up belief in God while not losing touch with a treasured heritage.

[pluckedflowers]

It's certainly worthwhile to read such texts simply for their literary merit, but I would add that if you are interested in understanding the religions within which they have their primary significance, you should also read secondary literature from within those traditions. I find there is a certain tendency amongst prominent atheists (Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, etc.) to basically grant all of the premises of "fundamentalism" and "literalism" (not the must coherent ideas to begin with) in the way they read such texts. But, as at least a Marxist ought to know, human beings make religion. Books don't make human beings. A religion is constituted by the interpretations of texts in any given context. Protestantism, for example, represented a major change in the religious constitution of European society. But the Bible itself didn't change (well, perhaps in some cases it did). How people read it changed.

[Comrade J]

I've only ever read parts of the Bible, but mostly as a kid who didn't understand, and only a few times when I was older to point things out that were relative to whatever discussion I was having about it.

But the only good thing I ever got from the Bible was years later.


The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who in the name of charity and goodwill shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

That was written by Quentin Tarantino. Only the last sentence and a bit of the one before are from Ezekiel 25:17.

[Sasha]

It are the only books you can get no matter what your hands on if you are in precinct jail , so Yeah, I have read the bible and thus also the torah.
My Arabic is a bit rusty to say the least so no Koran yet but kader abdolah just published an dutch translation so I'm planning on reading it as soon as I find the time for it.

[Bandito]

Yes, of course.

Actually reading the Bible is the quickest way of becoming an atheist.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Some of the stories in the Bible are pretty good. Especially from the Old Testament. A lot of old themes involving bloodshed and betrayal in that one, it's great.

[pastradamus]

Its all a waste of time. Reading is an excellent way of gaining information, knowledge and language whilst developing ones intellect in a subject. Reading the Bilbe, Koran or Torah is reading some ancient timewasting tripe that never happened and all three are in direct conflict with modern scientific beliefs.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Sometimes reading is good just for entertainment. Hence why people read fiction, which is often in conflict w/ "modern scientific beliefs".

(although maybe you were just being sarcastic.)

The original bible prose is kind of turgid, though, and doesn't make for very light reading.

[Magón]

That was written by Quentin Tarantino. Only the last sentence and a bit of the one before are from Ezekiel 25:17.

Yeah, I know, but ask if a Christian even knows, and they probably don't. It's just a badass line. :D

[Tim Finnegan]

I find reading no matter what the material is enlightening and at least gives you information on what various groups believe. I have personally read the Qur'an and Bible myself.
The Qur'an, maybe, but Biblical interpretations- including those that like to pose as "literalist" or "fundamentalist"- are steeped in accumulated tradition, very little of which can actually be inferred from the Bible itself. In either case, you're better off reading some text on traditional interpretations and using the holy text itself as a reference.

[praxis1966]

The King James Version is the literary gold standard for English...

And it's a damned shame that it is as well, what with all the gospels that got edited out of it... Kinda puts a whole new spin on things that will either make a Christian stare like a deer in headlights if they've never heard of them or start frothing at the mouth if they have. (They hate getting told that the "One Truth" is incomplete for political reasons.)


Some of the modern updates to it are pretty funny though. Particularly the London Cockney bible where they refer to God as Guv, as it "Alright, governor?".

Along similar lines, The Bible According to Mark Twain is pretty fucking hilarious as well.

[VeritablyV]

I would recommend them all but I also suggest the Bhagavad Gita or perhaps the whole Mahabrata, which I have yet to read my self and believe is quite expansive, or even the Ramayana.

All religious books should be read as a guide and not taken completely literally. Oh ya, and without projecting anything prior to even opening them.