Is it wrong to tear Nationalist propaganda off walls?

[We will rise again]

Next to my school there is Nationalist propaganda by the PNR party (Portugal's counterpart of the BNP). They are known for the nationalism and extreme anti-immigration ideals.

Now they aren't self declared Fascists (possibly because they would be banned), but their hate is kind of obvious.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Renovator_Party

Example of Propaganda:

http://avoznacional.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/cartaz_pnr.jpg

Should I remove their crap off the walls? Or is it wrong to do it?

Do you destroy BNP propaganda in the UK?

[#FF0000]

Why would it be wrong?

[We will rise again]

I know this is kind of stupid, but it feels "unfair" and against free-speech. They aren't blatantly racist or Nazi.

[Sensible Socialist]

I know this is kind of stupid, but it feels "unfair" and against free-speech. They aren't blatantly racist or Nazi.
I couldn't translate most of the propaganda, but from the few words and the general image, they looked pretty blatantly racist.

Don't feel bad for fighting facists.

[We will rise again]

Translation:

IMMIGRATION?

ENOUGH ABUSE

Open Frontiers, Dependence Welfare, Multiculturalism, Low Salaries, Unemployment, Crime... We say NO!

PNR

Portugal for the Portuguese

[Delenda Carthago]

I know this is kind of stupid, but it feels "unfair" and against free-speech. They aren't blatantly racist or Nazi.
Freedom of speech can truly exist in classless societies. As long we have classes, there is no such thing.

[Red Commissar]

Who started that whole stupid imagery? This isn't the first time I've seen the whole "white sheep" kicking the "black sheep" out of the country imagery. Here is a similar one from a nationalist party in Switzerland:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/60/Spp-poster.jpg

At any rate do what you want. I suggest you don't mention it here though.

[GallowsBird]

I destroy BNP propaganda when I see it (which is thankfully not that common as they are not that supported where I live) so no I would say there is nothing wrong with defacing that filth. Heck there is something wrong with not destroying it or at least pissing on it (though it may be a bit high for the latter obviously). Try not to get caught though.;)

[We will rise again]

I suggest you don't mention it here though.

Why?

*looks over shoulder*

[a rebel]

anybody can just vandalize, why not spray something communist on that sign? If you sprayed "CLASS WAR!" across, and let them know that you don't fall for their racist crap it would be better

[We will rise again]

anybody can just vandalize, why not spray something communist on that sign? If you sprayed "CLASS WAR!" across, and let them know that you don't fall for their racist crap it would be better

It's right next to my school, so kinda hard not to get caught...

Unless I go at night and Ninja the f*ck out that propaganda :ninja:

[a rebel]

It's right next to my school, so kinda hard not to get caught...

Unless I go at night and Ninja the f*ck out that propaganda :ninja:

Going at night would be best, & Socialist Ninja? Awesome

[We will rise again]

Socialist Ninja?

:laugh:

[Triple A]

I tear PNR propaganda and CDS off the walls whenever i see it.
If i have anarchist stickers ill glue one where the fascist sticker was to piss of ppl.
If it is hard to tear I write fuck nazis.

[#FF0000]

this isn't really a big deal

[¿Que?]

Most schools (at least in the US) have specific regulations regarding hate speech on campua. Most (in the US) have what they call a zero-tolerance with regard to this stuff. One thing you might try if it is actually on campus, or even near by, you could get together some friends and start a campaign to get it removed. Like I said, I don't know how things are in portugal, but in the US, you could probably successfully carry out such a campaign with only a few people and some good PR. Particularly if it's a public institution, your chances of this are pretty good. That's not to say it wouldn't be a rough fight. You might want to keep on your best behavior while the campaign is active.

Good luck.

[Luisrah]

It's not going against free speech if you shut up those that want some not to have it.

So if someone says all blacks should be killed, there's really nothing wrong with shutting them up. Why? Because those that are against free-speech and think some people should have that right, those really don't deserve it.
Isn't freedom supposed to end when someone else's starts? Then no one should be allowed to discriminate.

[Leftie]

Go ahead and rip it off I say :)

Don't let these fascists pollute your streets with this crap

[Spawn of Stalin]

Equality>Freedom of speech for fascists

Tear that motherfucker down

[Anarchist Skinhead]

smash it and dont get caught- ;)

[Bronco]

It's not going against free speech if you shut up those that want some not to have it.

So if someone says all blacks should be killed, there's really nothing wrong with shutting them up. Why? Because those that are against free-speech and think some people should have that right, those really don't deserve it.
Isn't freedom supposed to end when someone else's starts? Then no one should be allowed to discriminate.

That seems rather hypocritical

[Thirsty Crow]

Should I remove their crap off the walls? Or is it wrong to do it?

Is it wrong? By which warped standard of ethics would that kind of thing be wrong?
Is it against free speech? No platform for either crypto-fascists or fascists.

Oh yeah, and try not to get caught.

[gorillafuck]

It's not going against free speech if you shut up those that want some not to have it.Yes it still is stifling free speech.

There's nothing wrong with this case of it though.

[Rjevan]

That seems rather hypocritical
No, it's far more hypocritical to hail the concept of absolute and unconditional freedom of speech even if that means fueling and reinforcing those who actively seek to destroy even the most basic freedom of speech.

[F9]

tear them up on every chance you get!!!:thumbup1: Its not even illegal because its illegal to post them in the first place(most of the times) so any chance given you should take it.Be careful though not to be left alone and get discovered by nationalist pricks and get in danger.

[The Anarchist]

I think it is perfectly fine that you share your beliefs with them if they are sharing theirs publicly. Tear it down, just don't get caught.

[Sir Comradical]

Dress up as removalists wearing overalls and do it during the middle of the day. No one will suspect you.

[Ele'ill]

Those with the most money get to engage in free speech. Why should you lose yours because of your class position?

[Zav]

Paint it red. Then paint "Workers of the world, unite!" on it. Physically destroying it would be wasteful of a great place for Leftist counter-propaganda.

[Ocean Seal]

Instead of vandalizing it, you could print a progressive message over it. Make the nationalist propaganda look silly. Make people actually look into it. Once they see the flaw in their logic they'll be on your side. Make sure that you take both an anti-racist stance, and an anti-capitalist stance. But don't overdo it (you know what I mean). Don't put up quotes by Marx and that, but rather about the IMF, and the ruling class. Divert the hatred from a scapegoat to the cause of the hatred. For example, on the unemployment part, you could make a bit about how the ruling class shifts jobs overseas and how they're responsible for the financial crisis. Remember, the most difficult conscience to destroy is the class conscience. It can be confused but never erased, play on people's heartstrings.
If you tear it down then people see nothing, but if you keep it there then you advocate your cause and denigrate theirs.

[Bronco]

No, it's far more hypocritical to hail the concept of absolute and unconditional freedom of speech even if that means fueling and reinforcing those who actively seek to destroy even the most basic freedom of speech.

The poster said it's alright to "shut up those who want some not to have [free speech]". Clearly, you are therefore saying that you yourselves want some not to have it also, correct? And that's not hypocritical?

I see no hypocrisy in advocating free speech for all, it's a fundamental human right, you cant just pick and choose who it applies to. It's like Chomsky said: "If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all"

[Sir Comradical]

^^

"Capitalists took your jobs, not Immigrants!"

or

"Immigrants are our allies in the struggle against the bosses!"

[#FF0000]

tearing down a flyer isn't an abridgement of freedom of speech, even if "freedom of speech" meant anything today.

[Tenka]

I think Chomsky is correct on 'Free Speech': "If you're in favor of freedom of speech, that means you're in favor of freedom of speech precisely for views you despise."

That said, fuck 'free speech'. Deface the nazi billboards and cover them with counter-propaganda.

[Nolan]

I think Chomsky is correct on 'Free Speech': "If you're in favor of freedom of speech, that means you're in favor of freedom of speech precisely for views you despise."

That said, fuck 'free speech'. Deface the nazi billboards and cover them with counter-propaganda.

Nail, head, etc.

I believe Rosa Luxembourg said something to the same effect. They are correct.

Ideologies have material interests. This is an inherent property of any political view. Racism and nationalism have very clear philosophical pedigrees and historical functions in modern societies. An attack on a racist's speech is an attack on the more openly backward wing of capital.

[Tim Finnegan]

Instead of vandalizing it, you could print a progressive message over it. Make the nationalist propaganda look silly. Make people actually look into it. Once they see the flaw in their logic they'll be on your side. Make sure that you take both an anti-racist stance, and an anti-capitalist stance. But don't overdo it (you know what I mean). Don't put up quotes by Marx and that, but rather about the IMF, and the ruling class. Divert the hatred from a scapegoat to the cause of the hatred. For example, on the unemployment part, you could make a bit about how the ruling class shifts jobs overseas and how they're responsible for the financial crisis. Remember, the most difficult conscience to destroy is the class conscience. It can be confused but never erased, play on people's heartstrings.
If you tear it down then people see nothing, but if you keep it there then you advocate your cause and denigrate theirs.
I agree. The absence of a particular bit of propaganda is just that, an absence, but its vandalism is a counter-statement- and all the sweeter because it's one that they've paid to give you. ;)

And as for the victims? I'd go way closer to the centre than that before I felt a twinge of guilt!

http://libcom.org/files/images/25882_117204628297153_117203521630597_284394_48435 3_n.jpg

[Sir Comradical]

http://wheel.blogs.com/rani/images/redfern20graffiti1_2.jpg

[Tim Finnegan]

http://libcom.org/files/images/25882_117204608297155_117203521630597_284392_49719 98_n.jpg

[GallowsBird]

http://leosigh.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/tory1-e1288523698841.jpg

[JucheDPRK]

These tory posters are genius, also, do you really think they won't do the same thing? Ripping it off is ineffective, defacing it actually sends a message to the public and not just to the reactionary who posted up there, and, to him, having it removed would only encourage him to do more often.

[IndependentCitizen]

If it was marxist propaganda, I could tell you right now, fascists wouldn't think twice about destroying it.


Get rid of it.

[Renno]

Burn It!!!! Looks also good at night :D

[Niall]

Deface it with counter propaganda. If you cant do that, tear the fu***r down

[W1N5T0N]

WHITE sheep kicking the BLACK sheep out? THAT is racist. In my opinion, any propaganda that wants the oppression of one people or stirs up hatred against immigrants (thus workers) should be torn off or sprayed over. I think that fascist propaganda must be destroyed.This poster is saying: have the strong class kick the weak class out, they have no rights anyway.

I 100 percent support freedom of speech (or i wouldn't be writing this). But this BNP party just don't want to share their wealth, and tell people that these immigrant are taking it away from them.

In my country, whenever I see blatantly nationalistic propaganda, i take out my permanent Marker and make it unreadable. :D

[Olentzero]

My original gut feeling was tear the shit down, but seeing some of the ways the Tory posters got defaced has pushed me in the other direction. Hijack 'em and put your own message up there. Those black sheep could be the IMF, the bankers - even the Nationalist Party itself! If you don't have your own party sticker to put over the nationalists' logo, throw a good slogan up there like "A socialist world is possible" or something similar.

Just a couple thoughts.

[danyboy27]

i am not usually into breaking shit up but if something like that would appear in my neigborhood i would rip this up.

i wouldnt remove it tho, i would write the word fascist in red all over tho.

if they dont want us to deface their stuff, they should just move it to a place where we cant reach it.

[Anarchrusty]

Hell, I have seen similar posters before. Don't remember if it was from the Austrian or Swiss far right, but they also use the white sheep kicking out the black. The symbolism is very revealing.

[Dr Mindbender]

Next to my school there is Nationalist propaganda by the PNR party (Portugal's counterpart of the BNP). They are known for the nationalism and extreme anti-immigration ideals.

Now they aren't self declared Fascists (possibly because they would be banned), but their hate is kind of obvious.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Renovator_Party

Example of Propaganda:

http://avoznacional.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/cartaz_pnr.jpg

Should I remove their crap off the walls? Or is it wrong to do it?

Do you destroy BNP propaganda in the UK?

Jesus christ. That billboard is pretty much inciting racism. Throw paint bombs at it and burn it.

[Napoleon Winston]

Personally I am a strong believer in free speech, and believe that freedom always leads to equality.
Defacing or destroying a poster you disagree with is no different than skinheads or NAZIs sending death threats to anti-facist protesters.
Rather you should try setting up an anti-facist sign next to it, counter propaganda and the like.

[Lord Testicles]

Defacing or destroying a poster you disagree with is no different than skinheads or NAZIs sending death threats to anti-facist protesters.


Please list the similarities.

[Buitraker]

Make what you think

[cu247]

I don't think it's wrong to destroy it. I'd say go ahead, free speech doesn't apply to racism and hate. But these Tory posters were cool, so if you find a clever idea, just change it. Anyway, do it at night.

[Le Socialiste]

Of course not. There's no shame in tearing down advertisements for a racist, nationalist party. I would encourage it, actually. We must meet these kinds of things with action. Nationalism in any form shouldn't be tolerated.

[Lunatic Concept]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_q8kBt8ooNTE/S-QRnf85xHI/AAAAAAAADqE/sXnsqhqZwKs/s1600/cam_1.jpg

[Lunatic Concept]

http://www.moneymad.org/defaced_61.jpg

[MaximMK]

Nazi don't deserve free speech! In my country the nationalist party has the government but soon on 5th of may on the elections it will fall because of ruining the country's future. The city is full with their propaganda they waste lots of cash on it. Few days ago a kid ripped one poster and the cops from the "alpha" unit beat him up hard. They are known for their brutality. What the government here does is a regime without justice. Anyway not to get off topic, rip it off but don't get caught there is nothing wrong in doing it since they are racist-nazi idiots.

[Dr Mindbender]

Personally I am a strong believer in free speech, and believe that freedom always leads to equality.
Defacing or destroying a poster you disagree with is no different than skinheads or NAZIs sending death threats to anti-facist protesters.
Rather you should try setting up an anti-facist sign next to it, counter propaganda and the like.

It amazes me that the first ones (usually centre right liberal or tory knob heads) to jump to save the freedom of speech of fascist scum can usually be seen among the same mob that are first to support islamic extremists like abu hamza and al mahijouroun being locked up/deported purely on the basis of their views.

If youre going to allow fascists to speak then you also have to allow pro-al quaeda types to speak who believe that 9/11 was a good thing.

You cant have your cake and eat it.

[Danny777James]

Hate to burst everyone's bubble, but a poster isn't speech... it's text/image :/

Anyway, what's all this talk about "freedom of speech"? What the heck are you talking about? There's no such thing as freedom of speech. I can say whatever I want without government approval anyway -I just have to open my mouth.

I think what you are referring to is "freedom of speech in public discourse". That is governed by capital. If you can afford to publish your message, then you are free to do so -on private property (billboards, TV, radio ect), and 'property is theft', right?

There's allusions to censorship here, but censorship is top-down in approach and prevents the message from getting out in the first place. These guys have already made their expression, you're just expressing your disdain for that. I mean, this "freedom of speech" thing you talk about must work both ways, right?

Anyway, I don't think any justification is necassary. If somebody calls you a dick using their "freedom of speech", you're gonna call them back, right?

[Smyg]

Fuck that shit up. No platform for fascists! "Freedom of speech" doesn't mean that they're allowed to push their propaganda on the streets.

[Napoleon Winston]

Fuck that shit up. No platform for fascists! "Freedom of speech" doesn't mean that they're allowed to push their propaganda on the streets.

Yes, it does.
You cant have freedom of speach for only people you agree with.



Hate to burst everyone's bubble, but a poster isn't speech... it's text/image :/

Anyway, what's all this talk about "freedom of speech"? What the heck are you talking about? There's no such thing as freedom of speech. I can say whatever I want without government approval anyway -I just have to open my mouth.

I think what you are referring to is "freedom of speech in public discourse". That is governed by capital. If you can afford to publish your message, then you are free to do so -on private property (billboards, TV, radio ect), and 'property is theft', right?

There's allusions to censorship here, but censorship is top-down in approach and prevents the message from getting out in the first place. These guys have already made their expression, you're just expressing your disdain for that. I mean, this "freedom of speech" thing you talk about must work both ways, right?

Anyway, I don't think any justification is necassary. If somebody calls you a dick using their "freedom of speech", you're gonna call them back, right?

No, you silencing them.
And writen/text images are just a diffrent way of getting your message across, its no diffrent than you holding a sign or yelling from the rooftops.



It amazes me that the first ones (usually centre right liberal or tory knob heads) to jump to save the freedom of speech of fascist scum can usually be seen among the same mob that are first to support islamic extremists like abu hamza and al mahijouroun being locked up/deported purely on the basis of their views.

If youre going to allow fascists to speak then you also have to allow pro-al quaeda types to speak who believe that 9/11 was a good thing.

You cant have your cake and eat it.

True, and I do support their right to speach, as long as they aren't physicly hurting anyone.

[Dr Mindbender]

Also to answer the OP's question ''Do UK leftists destroy BNP propaganda like this'' the answer is no we don't because the BNP wouldnt dare put up something like this that is so blatantly racist.

[Dr Mindbender]

Nationalism in any form shouldn't be tolerated.

Nonsense.

In some cases it depends because certain nationalist causes run in parallel to progressive interests. The nationalism of Irish republicanism or Palestine does not equate to the nationalism of colonial or imperialist heavyweights like the United states or the UK.

[TC]

Wrong to tear it down? Its wrong to leave it up!

[Blake's Baby]

Nonsense.

In some cases it depends because certain nationalist causes run in parallel to progressive interests. The nationalism of Irish republicanism or Palestine does not equate to the nationalism of colonial or imperialist heavyweights like the United states or the UK.

Of course, some of us believe that the small nationalisms are as much a poison as the big nationalisms. A stronger Palestinian state will not help the struggle of the working class in Palestine or Israel. Equally, uniting Ireland won't make things better for the working class in either Ireland or Britain. It's a diversion that poisons workers against each other.

So, some of us think that confused notions like 'progressive nationalism' or even nationalism 'parallel to progressive interests' have been outmoded for... well. A century or more, perhaps. Nationalism can only serve the bougeoisie. It's the propaganda of the enemies of the working class. Workers have no country, not Palestine, not Ireland, not Cuba or anywhere else.

[Danny777James]

No, you silencing them.
And writen/text images are just a diffrent way of getting your message across, its no diffrent than you holding a sign or yelling from the rooftops.




...I do support their right to speach, as long as they aren't physicly hurting anyone.

I don't think you understood my post. There is no such thing as "freedom of speech", there is only what capital can afford you.

They can say whatever they want among themselves, and nobody is going to stop them. However, what that billboard is doing is using *property* to express a message. Property belongs to everyone as the shared inheritance of humanity.

And yes, I choose to silence them. So what? I don't like their message. I'm simply using my "freedom of expression" (not that I believe in such things) to destroy their message. If they can axpress themselves, then surely I can too?

As for supporting their "freedom of speech", why? What is so sacroscant about what some idiot has to say?

[Dr Mindbender]

True, and I do support their right to speach, as long as they aren't physicly hurting anyone.

At first, Hitler didnt advocate hurting anyone either. All that came later.

[ColonelCossack]

I know this is kind of stupid, but it feels "unfair" and against free-speech. They aren't blatantly racist or Nazi.

Yes they are. they show a white "native" of portugal kicking out loads of immigrants, who the poster steryotypes as criminals, etc.

[∞]

The sign has white sheep kicking out black sheep...I mean seriously.

You have the freedom of speech fascist, but we have the freedom to kick your ass.

[Decolonize The Left]

You could:
- Burn it
- Deface it with paint balloons
- Alter it to spread a different message
- Whitewash it
- Or, just cut it down. It's standing on fucking wooden poles for christ's sake, just saw through the shit at night and when it's down do whatever you want.

- August

[Napoleon Winston]

Of course, some of us believe that the small nationalisms are as much a poison as the big nationalisms. A stronger Palestinian state will not help the struggle of the working class in Palestine or Israel. Equally, uniting Ireland won't make things better for the working class in either Ireland or Britain. It's a diversion that poisons workers against each other.

So, some of us think that confused notions like 'progressive nationalism' or even nationalism 'parallel to progressive interests' have been outmoded for... well. A century or more, perhaps. Nationalism can only serve the bougeoisie. It's the propaganda of the enemies of the working class. Workers have no country, not Palestine, not Ireland, not Cuba or anywhere else.

I disagree, often nationalism can help against government and private monopolies, it also can inspire social programs to help the less well off in nationalistic countries.
True, it doesnt specifically help workers, however I dont think it hurts them.


At first, Hitler didnt advocate hurting anyone either. All that came later.

And I think we can all agree that the holocaust was the worst thing he did, not the none-advocating of hurting people.



I don't think you understood my post. There is no such thing as "freedom of speech", there is only what capital can afford you.

They can say whatever they want among themselves, and nobody is going to stop them. However, what that billboard is doing is using *property* to express a message. Property belongs to everyone as the shared inheritance of humanity.

And yes, I choose to silence them. So what? I don't like their message. I'm simply using my "freedom of expression" (not that I believe in such things) to destroy their message. If they can axpress themselves, then surely I can too?

As for supporting their "freedom of speech", why? What is so sacroscant about what some idiot has to say?

So why cant people express their ideas on public property? And I was under impression that this was put up on university grounds, not private property.

[Dr Mindbender]

And I think we can all agree that the holocaust was the worst thing he did, not the none-advocating of hurting people.
.

Oh Jesus Christ. I want to cry. This is either epic trolling or epic stupidity.

[Blake's Baby]

... often nationalism can help against government and private monopolies, it also can inspire social programs to help the less well off in nationalistic countries.
True, it doesnt specifically help workers, however I dont think it hurts them...

It hurts them because the class interests of workers are with other workers whatever their nationality. 'Workers of the world, unite!' and 'the working calss has no country' actually do mean something, you know.


... I was under impression that this was put up on university grounds, not private property.

Err, in most countries, universities are private property. Can you let me know any that aren't?

[Cleansing Conspiratorial Revolutionary Flame]

Next to my school there is Nationalist propaganda by the PNR party (Portugal's counterpart of the BNP). They are known for the nationalism and extreme anti-immigration ideals.

Now they aren't self declared Fascists (possibly because they would be banned), but their hate is kind of obvious.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Renovator_Party

Example of Propaganda:

http://avoznacional.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/cartaz_pnr.jpg

Should I remove their crap off the walls? Or is it wrong to do it?

Do you destroy BNP propaganda in the UK?

When dealing with the advocates of starting an entirely renewed Auschwitz Generation, the solution in this case is to respond to them with the needed amount of force.
1.) 'Should I remove their crap off the walls? '
Yes.
2.) 'Or is it wrong to do it?'
Only if you're apprehended for doing so.
3.) 'Do you destroy BNP propaganda in the UK?'
I suspect some of our British Comrades have done similar when the opportunity had came about.

http://blogs.sfweekly.com/thesnitch/Molotov_cocktail_flam.jpg

[Die Rote Fahne]

I say spraypaint a big hammer and sickle over it, with the words "we are all workers"

[nuisance]

I say spraypaint a big hammer and sickle over it, with the words "we are all workers"
yeah, talk about subverting towards radical means.....:rolleyes:
angry sentiment is much better than utilizing the symbology of mass murder.

[☭The Revolution☭]

No more wrong than overthrowing a corrupt system by means of revolution. In fact, I'd be proud if you did.

[Tim Finnegan]

yeah, talk about subverting towards radical means.....:rolleyes:
angry sentiment is much better than utilizing the symbology of mass murder.
Grind your axe somewhere else, mate, save us some grief.

[nuisance]

Grind your axe somewhere else, mate, save us some grief.
Sorry....but what? Do you honestly think that the hammer and sickle has positive connotations and that sticking it over some nationalist bullshit will be some sort of victory? If you're gonna use symbols which havesuch massive weight of history overshadowing them, then you're gonna have to explain the point away. Not just slap it on and hope for the best. And I thought you were against 'cliques'. Or is their some sort of social movement in the country that has reclaimed the symbol?

[Tim Finnegan]

Sorry....but what? Do you honestly think that the hammer and sickle has positive connotations and that sticking it over some nationalist bullshit will be some sort of victory? If you're gonna use symbols which havesuch massive weight of history overshadowing them, then you're gonna have to explain the point away. Not just slap it on and hope for the best. And I thought you were against 'cliques'. Or is their some sort of social movement in the country that has reclaimed the symbol?
Look, if you want to get into a discussion about appropriate symbolism, then that's fine, and I would in fact tend to agree with you that the hammer & sickle has lost its credibility in the West. But what you actually did, rather, was to make a passive-aggressive comment that bordered on sectarian provocation, and that's not particularly helpful. I'm sure you'd see things from my perspective if it had been the reverse, for example, a Marxist making similarly-toned comments about the circle-A.

[Die Rote Fahne]

yeah, talk about subverting towards radical means.....:rolleyes:
angry sentiment is much better than utilizing the symbology of mass murder.
If you think the hammer and sickle represents mass murder, you're an eejit.

The same way someone sees a black flag or A symbol, they think it represents chaos and retarded teenagers throwing bricks at windows.

[nuisance]

Look, if you want to get into a discussion about appropriate symbolism, then that's fine, and I would in fact tend to agree with you that the hammer & sickle has lost its credibility in the West. But what you actually did, rather, was to make a passive-aggressive comment that bordered on sectarian provocation, and that's not particularly helpful. I'm sure you'd see things from my perspective if it had been the reverse, for example, a Marxist making similarly-toned comments about the circle-A.
The cirlce A and the hammer and sickle have a massive differing in history and the A is gaining credibility, well recongition atleast, among certain sections of society- well in the UK.

[Die Rote Fahne]

The cirlce A and the hammer and sickle have a massive differing in history and the A is gaining credibility, well recongition atleast, among certain sections of society- well in the UK.
To judge the meaning of the symbol based on Joesph Stalin is fuckin absurd.

[nuisance]

If you think the hammer and sickle represents mass murder, you're an eejit.

The same way someone sees a black flag or A symbol, they think it represents chaos and retarded teenagers throwing bricks at windows.
yet swathes of youths have adopted the A and given it a new meaning. anyway i think the deaths caused by state caitalism, you yes did kill millions and used the symbol, by far out weighs the negative connoations of a brick through a window and some punks with it on their jacket.

[Die Rote Fahne]

yet swathes of youths have adopted the A and given it a new meaning. anyway i think the deaths caused by state caitalism, you yes did kill millions and used the symbol, by far out weighs the negative connoations of a brick through a window and some punks with it on their jacket.
The symbol was in use prior to Stalin. I would fully agree with you had Stalin created the symbol and Stalin started the use of it.

[nuisance]

To judge the meaning of the symbol based on Joesph Stalin is fuckin absurd.
Anarcho-capitalism exists on the internet and among a few economics nerds. Stalin and shit is taught to all kids in history. You think this is comparable? :blink:

[Die Rote Fahne]

Anarcho-capitalism exists on the internet and among a few economics nerds. Stalin and shit is taught to all kids in history. You think this is comparable? :blink:

I'm going to shoot myself...

[nuisance]

The symbol was in use prior to Stalin. I would fully agree with you had Stalin created the symbol and Stalin started the use of it.
we are talking about mass connotations, not the history of it.

[Die Rote Fahne]

we are talking about mass connotations, not the history of it.
Yeah...okay...let's change the symbol because apparently when someone sees it it means Stalinist tyranny.

Goober.

[nuisance]

Yeah...okay...let's change the symbol because apparently when someone sees it it means Stalinist tyranny.

Goober.
plus it sucks. but that's not what im saying....:rolleyes:

[Die Rote Fahne]

plus it sucks. but that's not what im saying....:rolleyes:
Explain yourself then.

[nuisance]

Explain yourself then.
try reading my posts.


If you're gonna use symbols which havesuch massive weight of history overshadowing them, then you're gonna have to explain the point away. Not just slap it on and hope for the best. And I thought you were against 'cliques'. Or is their some sort of social movement in the country that has reclaimed the symbol?

[Die Rote Fahne]

try reading my posts.
I did, all I see is a bunch of whining about how it shouldn't be used because of it's "connotations".

[nuisance]

I did, all I see is a bunch of whining about how it shouldn't be used because of it's "connotations".
It's hardly whining when i hope you fail anyway.

[Die Rote Fahne]

It's hardly whining when i hope you fail anyway.
Trotsky was right to do Kronstadt.

[nuisance]

Trotsky was right to do Kronstadt.
abit weird for a luxemburgist to say, are you trying to provoke a reaction or something? :laugh:

[Hebrew Hammer]

I know this is kind of stupid, but it feels "unfair" and against free-speech. They aren't blatantly racist or Nazi.

Who cares? Freedom for whom? To do what? That's what you should be asking yourself.

[Die Rote Fahne]

abit weird for a luxemburgist to say, are you trying to provoke a reaction or something? :laugh:
What are you talking about? I'm a Stalinist.

[Rooster]

I see the hammer and sickle spray painted all over the place in Europe. It's hard to avoid it in some cities.

[Tim Finnegan]

The cirlce A and the hammer and sickle have a massive differing in history and the A is gaining credibility, well recongition atleast, among certain sections of society- well in the UK.
That's really not the point...


I did, all I see is a bunch of whining about how it shouldn't be used because of it's "connotations".
That really is over-simplifying things. Symbolism is important, and it must be considered in terms of how it is percieved by the audience to which it appeals, and not merely in terms of how such-and-such far-left grouplet perceive it. The hammer & sickle, for example, is widely percieved as holding negative connotations in the English-speaking world- as Rooster says, it's more ambiguous in Continental Europe, so I was previously inaccurate to generalise by saying "the West"- so its casual deployment will likely fail to communicate the message is intended. As Nuisance quite rightly said, you can't just slap these things anywhere and hope people will not what you mean, any more than, say, a neo-pagan could stick big swastika-stickers up to advertise his new grouping and expect people to understand that he's using it as nothing more than a harmless solar-symbol.

[redSHARP]

It's not going against free speech if you shut up those that want some not to have it.

So if someone says all blacks should be killed, there's really nothing wrong with shutting them up. Why? Because those that are against free-speech and think some people should have that right, those really don't deserve it.
Isn't freedom supposed to end when someone else's starts? Then no one should be allowed to discriminate.

in the US, any speech directly agitating or approving violence against someone/group is not protected by the 1st Amendment (freedom of speech/press/rally/petition). I would hope most countries would have that same mentality with free speech. That how most US nazi groups get busted, they say something overtly violent like "lets kill all of (insert group)", and the next thing you know, they are heavily fined or jailed.

i see no issue with tearing down posters or anything of the such. especially if they tear down leftist posters.

[☭The Revolution☭]

Some anarchists these days, I swear...

[AntifaArnhem]

Some communists these days, I swear...

On topic, rip it down and don't get cought! Do it with a friend if it makes you uncomfortable doing it alone during the night.

[Blake's Baby]

... Do it with a friend if it makes you uncomfortable doing it alone during the night.

Quote of the week.

[AntifaArnhem]

First this threat was about weather ripping down fascist posters is against freedom of speech, then it became more about commie versus anarcho and now you've even downgraded it some more :D

Btw; it took me like 15min. to figure that one out.:blushing:

[Blake's Baby]

No really, sex is beutiful and important and I think there should be more of it. Or maybe I'm just not getting enough and it's preying on my mind.

No, you're right, it was kinda cheap, sorry. All I can say in my defence is I thought it was funny. :rolleyes:

[Die Rote Fahne]

Spray paint a giant penis on it.

[AntifaArnhem]

No really, sex is beutiful and important and I think there should be more of it. Or maybe I'm just not getting enough and it's preying on my mind.

No, you're right, it was kinda cheap, sorry. All I can say in my defence is I thought it was funny. :rolleyes:

I totally agree with you, sex is great and the joke was funny!


Spray paint a giant penis on it.

Yeah and write next to it: Hate fascism! Love interracial sex!

[Red_Devotchka]

burn it down

[Blake's Baby]

Sadly, it looks like the person we're offering all this brilliant advice to has already been banned.

[∞]

Pee on it.

[☭The Revolution☭]

drawing penises in it, tearing it down, burning it, pissing on it, now all we need is for somebody to cum on it and the process will be complete :rofl: