Patriotic Communist Party?

[We will rise again]

So I recently joined JCP ("Juventude Comunista Portuguesa"), the youth-wing of the PCP ("Partido Comunista Português") the Portuguese Communist Party.

Most of them are Marxist-Leninists. But what I really can't understand is their support for Patriotism... I mean, their slogan is "For Patriotic and Left Politics".

I mean WTF? Patriotism only leads to Nationalism and that's one thing I'm against! :thumbdown:

I couldn't help question my comrade on this, his reply was "we must be proud of our history, our culture and our people", call me paranoid, but that sounds right-wing to me... Portugal's history is a colonial one too, and it's people are very socially conservative, possibly a side-effect of the abolished fascist state.

Help me out here comrades...

[Leftie]

It seems to me that your friends are slightly confused.

Are they all like that or is just a small group of them?

I would just try explaining to them that there is nothing leftist in patriotism.

Good luck :)

[union6]

Hmmm that's a tricky one, I suppose there's a fine line between patriotic and nationalist and it's one thing for patriotic in terms of natinal liberation but some how I don't think that applies to portugal. I guess you can be proud of your country in terms of the struggles the people have endured and thought for but for me it ends there.

[Q]

"Marxism-Leninism" has a long history of national roads to socialism. The British Road to Socialism, the historic programme of the old CPGB and originally written by Stalin himself, comes to mind as a rather explicit example (these days the Morning Star CPB has inherited this under the slightly different name of Britain's Road to Socialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britain's_Road_to_Socialism)). As all CP's went to chase their own version of "socialism in one country", this spelled the effective end of the comintern rather quickly. But that is somewhat off topic.

That the PCP is having similar problems doesn't surprise me. How is BE as an alternative?

[Triple A]

So I recently joined JCP ("Juventude Comunista Portuguesa"), the youth-wing of the PCP ("Partido Comunista Português") the Portuguese Communist Party.

Most of them are Marxist-Leninists. But what I really can't understand is their support for Patriotism... I mean, their slogan is "For Patriotic and Left Politics".

I mean WTF? Patriotism only leads to Nationalism and that's one thing I'm against! :thumbdown:

I couldn't help question my comrade on this, his reply was "we must be proud of our history, our culture and our people", call me paranoid, but that sounds right-wing to me... Portugal's history is a colonial one too, and it's people are very socially conservative, possibly a side-effect of the abolished fascist state.

Help me out here comrades...



I dont think PCP is nationalist at all.

Thay stand for patriotic because one of their major goals is national production that was destroyed by EU.

[Triple A]

"Marxism-Leninism" has a long history of national roads to socialism. The British Road to Socialism, the historic programme of the old CPGB and originally written by Stalin himself, comes to mind as a rather explicit example (these days the Morning Star CPB has inherited this under the slightly different name of Britain's Road to Socialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britain%27s_Road_to_Socialism)). As all CP's went to chase their own version of "socialism in one country", this spelled the effective end of the comintern rather quickly. But that is somewhat off topic.

That the PCP is having similar problems doesn't surprise me. How is BE as an alternative?


BE is an alternative for trotzkysts and other more "moderate" people not for badass revolutionaries.

[Q]

BE is an alternative for trotzkysts and other more "moderate" people not for badass revolutionaries.

Could you be somewhat more concrete? What are "badass revolutionaries" for one and how does this not apply to BE?



I dont think PCP is nationalist at all.

Thay stand for patriotic because one of their major goals is national production that was destroyed by EU.
Why didn't this lead to a pan-European perspective instead? A logical response if you're a communist I think.

[Honggweilo]

I couldn't help question my comrade on this, his reply was "we must be proud of our history, our culture and our people", call me paranoid, but that sounds right-wing to me... Portugal's history is a colonial one too, and it's people are very socially conservative, possibly a side-effect of the abolished fascist state.

i think as one of the biggest factors in the carnation revolution and major supporter of anti-colonial liberation movements, the PCP/JCP is perfectly aware of that. There is a big difference between a peoples history and a chauvinist history of a culture/people. And the JCP is quite the opposite of being social conservative, especially compared to the greek KNE (in terms of views on softdrugs, religion and LGTB rights).

Besides, the current president of the world federation of democratic youth, Tiago Vieira, is a JCP member.


That the PCP is having similar problems doesn't surprise me.

Could you be somewhat more concrete? What are "badass revolutionaries" for one and how does this not apply to BE?


Their calls for "sharing the crisis" by the extremely moderate leadership of BE during the last ellections for example. BE is alot like the Greek Synaspismos; reformist leadership with support of small radical left factions (mostly to host disconent from the old social democracy, and trying to break the power of the CP, without alot of succes. Most of their votes come from social-democratic ex-socialist party voters and students, not the working class)

[Triple A]

Could you be somewhat more concrete? What are "badass revolutionaries" for one and how does this not apply to BE?



Why didn't this lead to a pan-European perspective instead? A logical response if you're a communist I think.


The BE is keynesianist whilst the PCP is a bit revolutionary I think PCP lost the revolutionary fever of other times.

As to pan-european I think it is due to the fact Portugal is rather poor and uneducated and measures like that would not be very popular.



Deconditioned reflexe 's analyzis of BE is preety acurate.

[We will rise again]

How is BE as an alternative?

I am just as sympathetic toward BE as PCP, they are both great. But I joined PCP because they are hard-line communists and BE has a lot of social-democrats. Also PCP's youth wing is much more active than BE's.

[Honggweilo]

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/168301_1708900835099_1015432379_2551765_7880651_n. jpg

those chauvinist stalinoids :rolleyes:

[Crux]

i think as one of the biggest factors in the carnation revolution and major supporter of anti-colonial liberation movements, the PCP/JCP is perfectly aware of that. There is a big difference between a peoples history and a chauvinist history of a culture/people
I do think it is a slightly confusing slogan, as the OP is evidence of and indeed has the roots that Q mentioned.

[Zeus the Moose]

From what I've learned about the Portuguese Communist Party, they probably base their "patriotism" on preserving and extending the radical goals (and accomplishments) of the Carnation Revolution, and, unlike most European countries, this revolution is something that can be pointed to as a positive achievement of the Portuguese working class. It's still a dangerous line towards nationalism, IMO (again, unsurprising in the ways Q pointed out), but perhaps more understandable given Portugal's recent history.

[Honggweilo]

Why didn't this lead to a pan-European perspective instead? A logical response if you're a communist I think.

The JCP hosted the European meeting of Communist Youth Organisations twice.. Their positions are full of pan-european struggle against EU measures like the Lisbon Accords and the Bologna proces.


I do think it is a slightly confusing slogan, as the OP is evidence of and indeed has the roots that Q mentioned.

Roots of what? to what evidence? Have you read the documents of the JCP talking about "a portuguese road to socialism"? They only talking about defending the original April Constitution in their program.

[Q]

As to pan-european I think it is due to the fact Portugal is rather poor and uneducated and measures like that would not be very popular.

But a communist programme is not about being "popular" or (a similar argument also often aired) "connecting to the mass consciousness". A communist programme states what is objectively needed to get from where we are today, to working class power and towards the transformation to communism after that. Communists then set out to win the working class to this programme, not vice versa.

As for BE: Fair enough, my knowledge on them is limited.

[Crux]

I am just as sympathetic toward BE as PCP, they are both great. But I joined PCP because they are hard-line communists and BE has a lot of social-democrats. Also PCP's youth wing is much more active than BE's.
The comrades in Socialismo Revolucionário (http://www.socialismo-revolucionario.org/)
are of the opinion that there ought to be a common, radical, left front. While I can't say I know all that much about the portugese left what has been said about the BE seems to be pretty much accurate, in so far as that the leadership are far too modreate for what the present situation demands.

[We will rise again]

The BE is keynesianist whilst the PCP is a bit revolutionary I think PCP lost the revolutionary fever of other times..

BE is not Keynesianist, they are mostly Socialist and anti-Capitalists.

PCP has adopted a more reformist position, and I can understand this, because many Portuguese people are strangely afraid of Communism (media?), when it was the PCP that struggled for their freedom... Ironic.

But the PCP is still more revolutionary than BE.

[Honggweilo]

The comrades in Socialismo Revolucionário (http://www.socialismo-revolucionario.org/)
are of the opinion that there ought to be a common, radical, left front. While I can't say I know all that much about the portugese left what has been said about the BE seems to be pretty much accurate, in so far as that the leadership are far too modreate for what the present situation demands.

Well we saw how that worked out in SYRIZA in greece. In comparison to Sweden, they are much like the Vansterpartiet, but a bit more right wing even i think. Most trotskist organisation supporting and within BE tend to take the usual entryist line (Or in Q's case, the line the CWI had on the Dutch SP).

[We will rise again]

Well we saw how that worked out in SYRIZA in greece

Enlighten me :confused:

BE is a united anti-capitalist party, with many different ideologies.

[Honggweilo]

Enlighten me :confused:

BE is a united anti-capitalist party, with many different ideologies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_of_the_Radical_Left

[Crux]

Well we saw how that worked out in SYRIZA in greece. In comparison to Sweden, they are much like the Vansterpartiet, but a bit more right wing even i think. Most trotskist organisation supporting and within BE tend to take the usual entryist line (Or in Q's case, the line the CWI had on the Dutch SP).
While similar they are not identical, however I should note that the comrades are currently not working in the BE, although they have in the past.
As for SYRIZA it could have well developed in another direction, but in the end what has happened now is that it is torn between two factions of the leadership clique neither of which has a way forward. This conflict unfortunatly deflated the pressure that was indeed building inside SYRIZA, mainly from non-aligned members.

[RadioRaheem84]

I don't think Patriotism is really right wing per-se and anti-socialist, in so much as one can have love for their region, people, homeland. It's when the Nation-State is used as a tool of the capitalist class that it becomes reactionary; nationalism.

[We will rise again]

In the last election (2009), the Left Block (BE) got 9.81% of votes. The party's support has been growing steadily since it's creation in 1998 in think. The PCP's support has been slowly going downhill since the 80's, with 7.86% of voters.

New elections are coming up on the 5th of June.

[We will rise again]

I don't think Patriotism is really right wing per-se and anti-socialist, in so much as one can have love for their region, people, homeland. It's when the Nation-State is used as a tool of the capitalist class that it becomes reactionary; nationalism.

Love for one's region, people and homeland is just a watered down version of love for ones country, race, and nation.

[Triple A]

Anyway next elections in 5 June BE is expected to fall 4 %, because of voters fleeing to socialist party, whilst PCP is expected to grow 2-3 %.

[We will rise again]

Anyway next elections in 5 June BE is expected to fall 4 %, because of voters fleeing to socialist party, whilst PCP is expected to grow 2-3 %.

Why are voters fleeing to Socialist Party if they are the ones imposing the cuts?!

[gorillafuck]

Patriotism is the same as nationalism. If I love living in New Hampshire it doesn't make me a New Hampshire Patriot. Patriotism is love for your nation, which is inseparable from your nationstate.

[Honggweilo]

Why are voters fleeing to Socialist Party if they are the ones imposing the cuts?!

fear for a PSD/PP coalition, the most rightwing government since 74. Usual "tactical lesser evil" vote from the middle class.


Patriotism is the same as nationalism. If I love living in New Hampshire it doesn't make me a New Hampshire Patriot. Patriotism is love for your nation, which is inseparable from your nationstate. You can debate over semantics, or cultural bias to a specific term, in the context of the PCP, it isnt chauvinist. Just like "patria o muerte" isnt chauvinist in Cuba (some might disagree, but thats understandable).

[We will rise again]

fear for a PSD/PP coalition, the most rightwing government since 74. Usual "tactical lesser evil" vote from the middle class.

Wouldn't it make more sense for the middle-class to vote BE?

[Honggweilo]

Wouldn't it make more sense for the middle-class to vote BE?

This is a common thing in times of crisis, the middle class, even the progressive ones tend to shift back to the voice of "order and reason" and lend their vote back to moderates in fear of "not getting a majority" and "countering the right wing". Dutch example; Job Cohen, American example; obama tailing

[manic expression]

Patriotism does mean love for one's nation, but you can love your nation while loving every nation, while loving humanity. Internationalist patriotism is the thing.

[We will rise again]

This is a common thing in times of crisis, the middle class, even the progressive ones tend to shift back to the voice of "order and reason" and lend their vote back to moderates in fear of "not getting a majority" and "countering the right wing". Dutch example; Job Cohen, American example; obama tailing

Their thought is is stupid, because if the middle-class voted for BE, then BE would have majority and counter the right...

Perhaps the individual is afraid that the masses don't think like him, and his vote alone for BE will be useless.

Another strange phenomenon is that people tend to be inseparable from the party they voted for all their life. They find it hard to change even when they know it's the right thing to do.

[Q]

The middle class is of course a huge part of society of a typical western country that matters in any election...

[/slight sarcasm]

[IndependentCitizen]

Use national interest to gain strength, I suppose.

[Delenda Carthago]

All the communist parties are partiotic. The problem comes with revisionism which ends up in naitonalism(Brehznef is a great example of). For all I can speak on, KKE's basic slogan since 2009, other than "without you a cog cannot turn, worker you can do it without the bosses", is "Uprise! Dont let the people pay. This is the real patriotism".

[Honggweilo]

"Uprise! Dont let the people pay. This is the real patriotism"

whats wrong with a slogan like that to counter petty chauvinism?

all and all, a party should not be measured by short term voting polls, but by its rooting in society and mobilisation power

[Delenda Carthago]

whats wrong with a slogan like that to counter petty chauvinism?
I didnt say that anything is wrong. I m reporting what KKE say. Patriotism is a great thing as long as its combined with internationalism.

[RadioRaheem84]

Love for one's region, people and homeland is just a watered down version of love for ones country, race, and nation.

Is it the same as love for one's family?

Seriously, it's not about blood and soil.

[We will rise again]

I didnt say that anything is wrong. I m reporting what KKE say. Patriotism is a great thing as long as its combined with internationalism.

I seriously doubt any nation-pride or the glorification of an ethnic group is good.

Instead we should be patriotic in the working class itself.

The proletariat should be our pride, not some traditional dish or a f*cking worldwide colonial dominance, something that many Portuguese are frightfully proud of.

[We will rise again]

Is it the same as love for one's family?

Seriously, it's not about blood and soil.

As I said, we should love our fellow workers as if family, not our country.

If the whole world is to be Communist, then hopefully it will be like one huge tribe, or a huge family.

Idealistic? I don't think so. It all boils down to inter-dependence and respect for each-other, educating the masses not only in academia but also in language and manners, like avoid swearing.

These aspects may seem irrelevant, but they are not, for manners is a sign of self and inter respect.

[Delenda Carthago]

I seriously doubt any nation-pride or the glorification of an ethnic group is good.

Instead we should be patriotic in the working class itself.

The proletariat should be our pride, not some traditional dish or a f*cking worldwide colonial dominance, something that many Portuguese are frightfully proud of.
ΟΚ. Patriotism is not by definition anti-class war. The KKE slogan says it all. Other than that, except your class distiction, you have another one, which is based on the language you speak, the places you grew up, the ethics and traditions that you lived in. Doesnt mean that you have to stick to it, you have to progress it, but not everyone are the same. We are equal, not the same. So national intependence is also important as class liberation.

[jake williams]

I've met a few folks from the JCP/PCP and they all seemed to have exceptionally solid heads on their shoulders - and to be dedicated internationalists. I can't speak much about Portuguese history, but it's clear right now that some of the sharpest struggles for the Portuguese working class are against inter-European imperialism. I think that's important context.

If the JCP/PCP were actually proud of Portuguese colonialism, that would be fucking horrible. But I'm almost certain that's not the case.

As for the usage of the term "patriotism", one I'm not personally very comfortable or familiar with, the vibe I get is it becomes more of a byword for fighting for those with whom one lives than representing any particular position, theoretical or political, on the status of the "nation".

[JucheDPRK]

To support Patriotism is no problem, to accept the existence of Nations as an extension of the collective and the swear allegiance to your nation and her people is no contradiction of Socialism in any sense.
To support Nationalism as in the National sovereignty of Nations from foreign yoke again, in my eyes, is extremely commendable.
This does not mean that they are National Chauvinists.
You may disagree but Nationalism and valuing one's national sovereignty is not inherently bad.

[We will rise again]

ΟΚ. Patriotism is not by definition anti-class war. The KKE slogan says it all. Other than that, except your class distiction, you have another one, which is based on the language you speak, the places you grew up, the ethics and traditions that you lived in. Doesnt mean that you have to stick to it, you have to progress it, but not everyone are the same. We are equal, not the same. So national intependence is also important as class liberation.

I think an International Culture will form over the centuries with access to instant means of communication and co-operation.

I am also for the adoption of the Universal Language.

The whole World will suffer acculturation to a point where culture is universal outside a few minor differences across the planet.

Patriotism is counter social-progression. Different cultures formed due to isolation, something that rarely exists in this day and age.



If the JCP/PCP were actually proud of Portuguese colonialism, that would be fucking horrible. But I'm almost certain that's not the case.

That isn't the case. I'm talking of the Portuguese people, not the party. I've encountered numerous persons that have pride in "owning" half the world. Disgusting is right.

[Desperado]

I mean WTF? Patriotism only leads to Nationalism and that's one thing I'm against! :thumbdown:

Both patriotism and nationalism are inherently vague words, so vague and used in so many different ways that they're almost empty unless elaborated on. Naturally, because of it's association with so many conservative and counter-revolutionary bourgeois groups it should set off alarm bells, but this does not necessarily mean that they are such. Do further research on the key issues: do they support the end of border restrictions? Are they supportive of a strong army and to what purpose? Do they wish to control the culture of the people in any way?



I couldn't help question my comrade on this, his reply was "we must be proud of our history, our culture and our people", call me paranoid, but that sounds right-wing to me...


Again, "proud" is a vague term. It can be either a) Positive self reflection in or b) A feeling of higher status because of (i.e "better" than others). The first is fine, the second is bellicose and divides the working class against their oppressor. Either way, national pride always involves cherry-picking. Hitler wasn't proud of Germany's defeat in the second world war. So called progressive nationalists take pride in a few historically progressive institutions and values and ignore quite a few more shameful moments. What are they proud of, and what do they mean by proud? More importantly, how (if at all) does this influence what they do?

[Delenda Carthago]

I think an will form over the centuries with access to instant means of communication and co-operation.

I am also for the adoption of the .

The whole World will suffer acculturation to a point where culture is universal outside a few minor differences across the planet.

Patriotism is counter social-progression. Different cultures formed due to isolation, something that rarely exists in this day and age.
Probably. But up until then, I m a greek malakas, "you" are an english prick, he is an american motherfucker, she is a spanish cambron and we all are working class and unlucky about it.:)

[Honggweilo]

If the JCP/PCP were actually proud of Portuguese colonialism, that would be fucking horrible. But I'm almost certain that's not the case.

For those who havent noticed my interest on this subject, im half portuguese and i have alot of connections with the JCP, and i can say with absolute certainty this is not the case. Every single anti-colonial liberation movement from the former colonies attend Festa do Avante every year in big numers; the MPLA, FREMILO, FRETLIN, and PAIGC



http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/38510_1544544774779_1269808299_31525019_3767831_n. jpg

Also "no people is free that opresses another" doesnt really sound like a colonial slogan to me.

[Delenda Carthago]

How strong is the Portuguese Communist Party?

[Honggweilo]

How strong is the Portuguese Communist Party?

i would say the second biggest CP in europe in numbers, with the KKE being the biggest. Their annual festival has over 200.000 visitors each year.

good indication in this video

EbjNm6oS6As

[Delenda Carthago]

You know, Papariga stated in a press conferance that the experiment of PCP with Block will be a failure and through that they will draw conclusions that KKE drawed in 1989 when they did something like it.

[Honggweilo]

Another thing, the current president of JCP is a black woman from cape verde

[Honggweilo]

You know, Papariga stated in a press conferance that the experiment of PCP with Block will be a failure and through that they will draw conclusions that KKE drawed in 1989 when they did something like it.

When did she say that? i havent heard anything about the PCP reaching out to BE, because there are alot of tensions. Most of the small radical left wing parties in BE are very anti-PCP from the beginning, even during the carnation revolution, parties compareable to the KOE in greece. The small left in portugal has a history of CIA involvement to break the power of the PCP, so they are very carefull. Best example is the party former EU president Barrosso was a part of; the PCTP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCTP/MRPP) (not a BE member btw)

However, there are some small differences between the PCP and KKE. Mostly concerning tactics. Like i said, in my opinion the PCP is somewhat more social/culturally progressive on subjects. In portugal, there is also a big difference between the Catholic conservative north (excluding cities like Braga and Porto) and the more progressive south (excluding the tourist Algarve).

Funny Anecdote, the father of a comrade of mine who lived in the Alentejo, during the carnation revolution. They went up to a conservative local priest supportive of the regime, and they painted his whole church red "because it was ugly".

[Delenda Carthago]

When did she say that? i havent heard anything about the PCP reaching out to BE, because there are alot of tensions. Most of the small radical left wing parties in BE are very anti-PCP from the beginning, even during the carnation revolution, parties compareable to the KOE in greece. The small left in portugal has a history of CIA involvement to break the power of the PCP, so they are very carefull. Best example is the party former EU president Barrosso was a part of; the PCTP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCTP/MRPP) (not a BE member btw)
Last week. Like, 5 days ago. Because it was announced that they will form a front or that they will work together anyway, and many SYRIZA parties and members were excited by the fact and started writing on their newspaper about it. So when Papariga was asked, she was totally negative to the posibility. Mater of fact, she has stated before that they will work with some right wingers if they have a common ground, in order to form a social collabo, but not with opportunists whose only target is to destroy the communist movement.

[Le Socialiste]

Patriotism is incompatible with socialism. Not only does it elevate the importance of national exploits unnecessarily, it is a means by which the state ensures the support of the people. Subjected to such a narrow vision of "nation-building", the people lose their focus, their goal of a worldwide emancipatory effort and the liberation of all peoples from the yoke of oppression. It is disturbing (though perhaps not terribly surprising) that the party/organization is vocally supportive of patriotism. No matter its ideology, a party that partakes of the state will ultimately become it.

[Honggweilo]

Last week. Like, 5 days ago. Because it was announced that they will form a front or that they will work together anyway, and many SYRIZA parties and members were excited by the fact and started writing on their newspaper about it. So when Papariga was asked, she was totally negative to the posibility. Mater of fact, she has stated before that they will work with some right wingers if they have a common ground, in order to form a social collabo, but not with opportunists whose only target is to destroy the communist movement.

Well this is news for me, i have to look into it. I share the concerns of Papariga, but i will have to see the how the PCP plans on doing this. I know it has to do with the current political crisis about the financial "aid" plan.

In all honesty, BE is not as dominated so much by the reformists as SYRIZA was, since it was never founded by a majority faction centered around a party like Synaspismos. But the PCP is perfectly aware of the dangers and would never form a united block like Izquierda Unida in spain, which really hurt the Spanish PCE. The power of the PCP lies in its dominance of trade unions and militant mobilisation, as where BE's power lies in students and discontent social-democrats. Thats why the PCP support is very loyal, and BE's support is just based on weavering popular opinion.

and please, all posters comming in here and having a very general anekdote about "patriotism", read into the situation before you start judging a party.

[black magick hustla]

Patriotism does mean love for one's nation, but you can love your nation while loving every nation, while loving humanity. Internationalist patriotism is the thing.
jesus "internationalist patriotism", now that is a neat trick.

the old revolutionaries (wrongly) speculated that patriotism of the opressed nations might be useful in certain strategic scenarios, but it was never a matter of principle. those who live in fucking europe, from all places, and talk about love of the fatherland don't even have the argument of opressed nations anymore. you guys are fake communists.

[HEAD ICE]

RevLeft continues to amaze. Patriotism is somehow considered to be a progressive thing now. Patriotism can be nothing but reactionary. What the fuck.

It does make sense though why so many "Marxist-Leninist" parties and self described "Marxist-Leninists" give "critical support" to patriotism and nationalism. The reason why Marxism-Leninism in all its incarnations is so "successful" (as they like to claim, usually used against anarchists/trotskyists/pretty much everyone of "where is your revolution") especially in the so called "developing countries" is that those Marxist-Leninist regimes have been the best suited to developing and strenghtening the native capital.

Of course this has nothing to do with Lenin, who spent his life being a resolute anti-patriot and tried to make combating Russian chauvinism (read: patriotism) a central principle that even the slightest concession to would be reactionary. I said "tried" because Stalin, even though a Georgian, was in fact the master of Russian chauvinism and a dedicated "patriot" so it is no surprise that his heirs centuries later would try to make "patriotism" some how a "progressive" thing.

[manic expression]

jesus "internationalist patriotism", now that is a neat trick.
It's not a neat trick, it's what revolutionary politics is all about. In case you didn't notice, to be an internationalist, you have to recognize the existence of different nations, including your own. To be an internationalist, you must struggle for the liberation of all nations, including your own. That's internationalist patriotism.


the old revolutionaries (wrongly) speculated that patriotism of the opressed nations might be useful in certain strategic scenarios, but it was never a matter of principle. those who live in fucking europe, from all places, and talk about love of the fatherland don't even have the argument of opressed nations anymore. you guys are fake communists.
RevLeft continues to amaze. Patriotism is somehow considered to be a progressive thing now. Patriotism can be nothing but reactionary. What the fuck.It's funny how you decry progressive patriotism by endorsing the reactionary view of patriotism. To the right-wing nationalist, you're only a patriot if you support your nation's government both in denial of its social composition and at the expense of other nations. You take this (wrong) predication and blindly apply it to every conceivable notion of patriotism. It is your inability to break away from the definitions laid out by the capitalist class that leads you to your position.

By denying nationality and by denying what lies at the core of Marxism, you expose yourself as far more of a "fake" than anyone else. Have fun arguing with the Manifesto:

Since the proletariat must first of all acquire political supremacy, must rise to be the leading class of the nation, must constitute itself the nation, it is so far, itself national, though not in the bourgeois sense of the word.

[black magick hustla]

Since the proletariat must first of all acquire political supremacy, must rise to be the leading class of the nation, must constitute itself the nation, it is so far, itself national, though not in the bourgeois sense of the word.

i dont like scholastic arguments but to that
"workers have no country"

[manic expression]

i dont like scholastic arguments but to that
"workers have no country"
In the time Marx wrote that, it was very true. The workers had no country, as they had won no state power. But we can see very clearly that Marx saw it as their immediate task to do so, to constitute themselves the nation. The workers had no country, the workers will have all countries.

[HEAD ICE]

This message is hidden because manic expression is on your ignore list (http://www.revleft.com/vb/profile.php?do=ignorelist).

[manic expression]

This message is hidden because manic expression is on your ignore list (http://www.revleft.com/vb/profile.php?do=ignorelist).
This message is worthless because Stagger Lee is intellectually bankrupt.

[Honggweilo]

Speaking about possitive patriotism XD

Struggle is joy

4bDN53Rqh54

i know they are slightly ironic and a comedy group, but still awesome XD

[Q]

In the time Marx wrote that, it was very true. The workers had no country, as they had won no state power. But we can see very clearly that Marx saw it as their immediate task to do so, to constitute themselves the nation. The workers had no country, the workers will have all countries.

This type of fuzzy logic is perfectly suited to connect Marxism with nationalism indeed. Revisionism I believe the term was. Again, nothing new to the "Marxists-Leninists".

[manic expression]

This type of fuzzy logic is perfectly suited to connect Marxism with nationalism indeed. Revisionism I believe the term was. Again, nothing new to the "Marxists-Leninists".
How is it revisionism? It's what Marx wrote, right there in black and white.

[Honggweilo]

This type of fuzzy logic is perfectly suited to connect Marxism with nationalism indeed. Revisionism I believe the term was. Again, nothing new to the "Marxists-Leninists".

thats a historical sectarian strawman if i ever saw one, lets not degenerate into this shit again before we start the "what did you ever accomplish with tailgaiting reformists" discussion.