abortion ??/

[Anarchist Freedom]

is abortion right yes or no i totally disagree with it even though it may be her body it is a living child! i mean cmon! your killing something inside of you because you dont want it ! all life is precious whether it is a baby or a adult it does not matter

your opinions??



:che:

[Alejandro C]

i agree with you. by the way you got some balls to start this topic. these things always get out of hand, just wait.

for me life begins at conception and any operation or anything used later than the morning after pill i see as murder, plain and simple.

[JohnTheMarxist]

I don't mean to bash you or anything but..what you see as life is not relevant. We go by facts in a civilized society. A fetus IS NOT a child...this is a way to force women into pregnancy and keep a low wage workforce. You as men have no right to dictate over a womans body. This whole "choos elife" bullshit is made up by sexists and people who think sperms and eggs have souls. Focus on saving the lives of REAL children who are alive today and starving by the millions!

[Marxist in Nebraska]

I agree with a woman's right to an abortion and birth control.

I do think we should have a society where women are not stigmatized for being pregnant, adoption services should be much better, and pre- and post- natal care should be given to every pregnant woman.

I like the idea of women being counseled before having an abortion as well. I realize this is used as a roadblock by anti-choice reactionaries, and thus I am nervous about actually supporting it in practice today. In post-capitalist society, however, I think that counseling could prove useful.

With all of these things in place, women would only have the abortions that are necessary.

[Alejandro C]

' a way to force women into pregnancy and keep a low wage workforce '
i've never heard abortion as a conspiracy before, thats interesting. it also brings up something i didn't mention before. i would agree with abortion if a women really was forced into pregnancy- rape. as well as with underaged pregnancy and incest. however i would have a condition to these that in order for the women to get the abortion they would have to bring charges against the rapist/incestist.

[Jesus Christ]

I 100% defend any woman's right to have an abortion.
Pro-choice all the way

as John said, a fetus is not a child

[Alejandro C]

explain to me why a fetus is not a child

[Sabocat]

Main Entry: fe·tus
Pronunciation: 'fE-t&s
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin, act of bearing young, offspring; akin to Latin fetus newly delivered, fruitful -- more at FEMININE
Date: 14th century
: an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kind; specifically : a developing human from usually three months after conception to birth

If it can't sustain life on it's own, it's not a living being.

A woman should have the choice to do whatever she wants with her own body.

[Alejandro C]

a one week old baby cannot sustain life on its own

[Alejandro C]

'from 3 months after conception to birth' ?

so if there is a full grown fetus and its ready to be born, and you kill it inside the womb it is still ok?

at that point the only difference in being born is coming out and breathing for the first time, nothing to do with developmental issues or brain capacity. you think its ok to kill a baby just because it hasn't come out of the womb yet? for instance if someone is pregnant and has gone 9 months into labor and when the baby is due decides they don't want it. you think its ok for them to kill the baby, just as long as they kill the baby when its inside its mother and not wait until its outside of its mother. is that right?

[JohnTheMarxist]

He meant breath and have its organs function. You act as though doctors tie a woman to a table and rip a 3 foot tall toddler out of her and shoot it.

[JohnTheMarxist]

Also, abortion doesn't happen at 9 months..maybe you should read up and get your facts straight before you start spewing anti-woman crap.

[Alejandro C]

i'm not trying to insult women. i'm not trying to portray abortion as something its not. i've seen the procedure performed, its very cold and sterile, no pistols at all.

why don't you support abortion at 9 months. its still a fetus isn't it?

[JohnTheMarxist]

No one supports killing a fully functioning child...what we are talkign about is a zygote or a fetus...I have gone with a friend to get an abortion before because her parents were christian extremists and would have kicked her out of the house and witheld her college tuition if they knew she was pregnant. It isn't an easy decision but you have to think about real life scenerios. Also, planned parenthood in Africa provides abortions because there is not enough food, medicine to take care of all the people and there is constantly war and rape. Women often die due to complicaitons at birth and because of George Bush cutting abortion funding there an estimated 77,000 women have died. These are the facts.

[Sabocat]

It's a simple solution really.


If you're not for abortion....don't have one.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2003, 02:40 PM
If you're not for abortion....don't have one.
works for me

[Alejandro C]

OK, this thread came up when i first joined this site a couple of years ago. i remember because everyone jumped all over me for a long time about it when i was new.

i ended up thinking about it a lot and this is what i've decided. you know the conditions that i would support an abortion. anything else i think an abortion is immoral. HOWEVER, i would not try to force these kind of my morals on anyone else. if it was us to me i would make abortion legal because i can support giving people the choice. however in order to have said abortion i think it's important for the father to agree to it.

but there you have it, i agree with the ability of decision even though i think its the wrond decision. i think last time i ended the thread something like- "i think abortionis murder but i support the right of women to murder their unborn child" so thats as far as i'll go this time.

[JohnTheMarxist]

and you know what. That is good enough. Just let women have their own decision. Everyone has their own thoughts on myriads of issues but we can't legislate them all.

[truthaddict11]

i fully support a womens right to have an abortion and have freedom over thier bodies.

[RyeN]

Abortion in my oppinion should be the choice of not only the woman, but the man as well. It takes two to tango. Anyway I really dont see why anyone would want to have an abortion. There are perople who have been waiting on a list for years for your unwanted baby. Someones trash is anothers treasure. If your not up for addoption there are people with money who dont want to wait on the adoption list and will pay Cash for your baby. Cmonn before you posibly kill the next Marx think about all the options.

[truthaddict11]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2003, 06:26 PM
Abortion in my oppinion should be the choice of not only the woman, but the man as well. It takes two to tango. Anyway I really dont see why anyone would want to have an abortion. There are perople who have been waiting on a list for years for your unwanted baby. Someones trash is anothers treasure. If your not up for addoption there are people with money who dont want to wait on the adoption list and will pay Cash for your baby. Cmonn before you posibly kill the next Marx think about all the options.
good grief not this "next mozart" argument again. first of all no one can determine the future contributions of a fucking fetus. secondly there are thousands of children in "group homes" aka orphanages in horrible conditions by having more and more children being added to this is not an option i want to see happen. if these couples really want children then why not adopt one of the thousands already availible.

You say that a man should have a decision in what a women does with her body? what fucking bullshit! Its her damn body man let her make the decision.

[BuyOurEverything]

Let me start by saying that I fully support a woman's right to have an abortion.


Cmonn before you posibly kill the next Marx think about all the options.

You could also "kill" the next Marx by not having sex.


i would agree with abortion if a women really was forced into pregnancy- rape. as well as with underaged pregnancy and incest. however i would have a condition to these that in order for the women to get the abortion they would have to bring charges against the rapist/incestist.

I have a problem with that. If you truly believe that a fetus is a child, how could you support killing it sometimes? The fact that you would allow abortions in certain cases is an admission that you don't really believe fetuses are children after all, which is, of course, correct. Also, with that system, if all a woman needs to do is charge someone with rape, it seems to me there is nothing stopping a woman desperate for an abortion from just accusing a random person of raping her knowing the charges wouldn't stick but allowing her to get an abortion. On the other hand, if a person had to be convicted of rape in order for a woman to get an abortion, tons of women who were raped but couldn't prove their case in court would be denied abortions. That whole opinion is fundamentally flawed.

[swapna]

I completely agree with John on this issue. Women should have complete freedom on wanting to have a kid or not.

But I am very sorry to tell that in my country they use it to kill female fetus in the womb just because they want to have a son. They think women is a burden on their family. females neither earn nor bring any dowry.

[Alejandro C]

Buy our everything-

don't tell me what i believe. i know what i believe.

[redstar2000]

A popular topic...

http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?a...&hl=abortion&s= (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=4&t=4860&hl=abortion&s=)

http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?a...&hl=abortion&s= (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=4&t=4862&hl=abortion&s=)

http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?a...4&t=4161&hl=&s= (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=4&t=4161&hl=&s=)

http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?a...4&t=2347&hl=&s= (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=4&t=2347&hl=&s=)

http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?a...4&t=1396&hl=&s= (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=4&t=1396&hl=&s=)

There are actually three pages of topics in the Politics forum alone where the subject is at least mentioned. You could also search the Theory forum as well...I'm pretty sure there've been some threads on it there too.

Why do you think guys like to talk so much about a surgical procedure that they will never undergo?

:redstar2000:

PS: Look for the posts from RedFW...she is a genuine expert on the subject.

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[truthaddict11]

: Look for the posts from RedFW...she is a genuine expert on the subject

i agree, i sent her a PM earlier today asking her to check out the latest thread when possible

[BuyOurEverything]

don't tell me what i believe. i know what i believe.

Sorry, I just assumed that the reason you were against abortion was that you believe a fetus is a child. Please correct me.


Abortion in my oppinion should be the choice of not only the woman, but the man as well.

Often when a woman wants to get an abortion, the father isn't around. In fact quite often it is because of this that women choose to get abortions. Also, lot's of guys are so strongly opposed to their baby's mother getting an abortion but when the kid's actually born they don't support it or her.

[Iepilei]

abortion is a filler arguement. nothing more, nothing less. we have more pressing matters to attend to.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

I am strongly anti-life.

It is absolutely the woman's choice whether or not to abort a preganacy. I think partial-birth abortions should also be available. Saying that a reproductive cell or mass of cells is not under control of the individual which these cells inhabit uses the same logic as saying that masturbation is a waste of sperm! It's absolutely propostrous. It has no rights as it does not exist as an individual. It's like saying, "You may not drink alcohol because it harms your liver! You don't have the right to harm your liver! Liver-killer!!!"

[Regicidal Insomniac]

Originally posted by Alejandro [email protected] 1 2003, 07:33 PM
i'm not trying to insult women. i'm not trying to portray abortion as something its not. i've seen the procedure performed, its very cold and sterile, no pistols at all.

why don't you support abortion at 9 months. its still a fetus isn't it?
This argument is a true "red herring." There is no such thing as an abortion at nine months; inducing labour at this point in a pregnancy is called childbirth. :lol:

About abortion, I fully support any woman's right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy. No woman can call herself free unless she has complete control over her reproductive life and she can conscientously decide whether or not she wants to become a mother. And don't give me any of that responsibility bullshit, most women who get an abortion have used some form of contraception.

Here's a great site (http://www.caral.ca/facts/responses.php) about abortion rights, I suggest you read up on your facts. ;)

[BXs Prophet]

I'm anti- abortion unless the woman was raped or is under the age of 18.

Women who fuck men without protection, knowing that there's a risk of an unwanted pregnancy are dumb tramps and shouldn't have the right to abort babies. They should take care of their responsibilities and women up. There's too many ways to protect yourself from unwanted pregnancies. :unsure: I'm all for men who blow up abortion clinics. :unsure: If the government reads this. I'm entltled to my own opinion. "Freedom of Speech" :)

[BuyOurEverything]

I'm anti- abortion unless the woman was raped or is under the age of 18.

Women who fuck men without protection, knowing that there's a risk of an unwanted pregnancy are dumb tramps and shouldn't have the right to abort babies. They should take care of their responsibilities and women up. There's too many ways to protect yourself from unwanted pregnancies. I'm all for men who blow up abortion clinics. If the government reads this. I'm entltled to my own opinion. "Freedom of Speech"

Your comment about women only being allowed to have abortions if they are raped or are under 18 is completely illogical as I've stated before. Many contraceptives don't work 100% but that's not even the point. How is it women's responsibility to make sure they don't get pregnant? You haven't even said why you think abortions are bad. By your logic anyone who gets an infection is just a dumb tramp who shouldn't have the right to use antibiotics. I mean after all there's just too many ways of preventing infections, like washing a wound or not getting cut in the first place. They should take responsibility for their own damn actions and die. I would naturally assume that you're all for blowing up hospitals.

[RyeN]

good grief not this "next mozart" argument again. first of all no one can determine the future contributions of a fucking fetus. secondly there are thousands of children in "group homes" aka orphanages in horrible conditions by having more and more children being added to this is not an option i want to see happen. if these couples really want children then why not adopt one of the thousands already availible.


You can not deterimine the contributions of a dead fetus for sure. However given the chance a fetus can be born and grown into something good. I do realize that there are thousands of children in Ophaniges, most of wich will have developed behavioral problems. Or maybee thats why they were sent there. The majority of people who cant have thier own child want an Infant, hence the long waiting periods and the underground baby market.

Are you saying that a man should not have the choice of wether or not his son or daughter is born. If the sex was concentual then the abortion must be as well. I also understand that in many instances the father is not present in which case he waives his right.

The major problem isnt, should people be able to have an abortion, because the answer is Yes. The more pressing issue is why are all of these people getting pregnant? At least in North America and mst of Europe Birth control is rampant. Why not use some. Thats not even the point though. People need to stop having sex with every beautiful person they met. The Capitolist empire has been slowly brain washing you into thinking this is a good idea.

Be more responsible and think before you act. It may be hard but there are some pretty serious consequences that come with permescuity. It is posible to have great sex with one person for long periods of time, all you need to do is keep it interesting. Capitolism is tearing the family unit apart and we need to stop it.

You say that a man should have a decision in what a women does with her body? what fucking bullshit! Its her damn body man let her make the decision.

Do you know that it takes in most instances two people to make a fetus right?

[BuyOurEverything]

You can not deterimine the contributions of a dead fetus for sure. However given the chance a fetus can be born and grown into something good.

Nor can you determine the contibutions of a sperm that never fertilized an egg. Thus is the way of the world. Yes, given the chance to be born a fetus may grow into something good, or something bad. However since it has not been born yet it is irrelevant. Using that logic you could say "if we don't have sex right now you could be killing the next Mozart! Given a chance to combine, my sperm cell and your egg could create a fetus, be born, and grow into something good! If you don't have sex with me right now, your not even giving that theoretical person a chance to exists! Don't walk away you fuckin baby killer!"


I do realize that there are thousands of children in Ophaniges, most of wich will have developed behavioral problems. Or maybee thats why they were sent there. The majority of people who cant have thier own child want an Infant, hence the long waiting periods and the underground baby market.


Right, so the reason orphanages are full is because their all psychos and delinquents. Maybe the reason for the underground baby market is because childless parents that can afford to buy a kid off the black market want a baby with blond hair, blue eyes, and white skin... just a thought.


I also understand that in many instances the father is not present in which case he waives his right.

But what's to stop him from sticking around just long enough to force his fucked up values on her and then leaving when it's time for him to actually help raise or at least pay for the kid. I guarentee that would happen all the time. Also, how would a pregnant teen prove to an abortion doctor that the father is actually gone? Or for that matter, what's to stop her from just bringing one of her friends to the doctor and saying he's the father and getting him to sign a form or two and then leave?


The major problem isnt, should people be able to have an abortion, because the answer is Yes. The more pressing issue is why are all of these people getting pregnant? At least in North America and mst of Europe Birth control is rampant. Why not use some.

I assume by rampant you mean readily available. One thing I've noticed is in Canada (or at least in BC), they educate people about pregnancy and STDs and give out condoms at school and the majority of people use them. In the US though, all I ever hear and see is ABSTINENCE ABSTINENCE ABSTINENCE! No information is offered about pregnancy or STDs and no condoms or info on where to get condoms is given out. Do less people have sex here? Of course not, just less people use condoms.


Thats not even the point though. People need to stop having sex with every beautiful person they met. The Capitolist empire has been slowly brain washing you into thinking this is a good idea.

Of course, blame it on the capitalists! Sex is human nature. People will always have sex. Forget the stupid puritan Christian morals that have been forced on you since birth. One thing that really pisses me off about our society is that while sex is promoted everywhere in the media, at the same time, we are told that it is bad and we should feel guilty about it.


It may be hard but there are some pretty serious consequences that come with permescuity. It is posible to have great sex with one person for long periods of time, all you need to do is keep it interesting.

Not denying that but not everyone that needs an abortion is promiscuous. Also, monogomy doesn't work for everybody. Personally, I think it's an important part of a relationship but I don't claim to speak for everybody and I would never pass judgment on someone that disagreed with me on that.


Capitolism is tearing the family unit apart and we need to stop it.

Explain how. Also explain what you think is a proper "family unit."

[Alejandro C]

i agree with RyeN but you all know that.
i also agree with redstar. everything that can and ever will be said about abortion has already been said, on this forum. i mentioned it before. so maybe we should all just stop talking about this because arguing with someone is not going to change their mind, and anyway most people here that are arguing are dead set in their decisions anyway. so what i'm getting at is - this is going to be my last post about this, i've been making too many useless posts lately anyway.

but as the last post let me clear up something said to me by BOE-
you said earlier that i obviously don't believe that a fetus is a child because i would support abortion in some cases. you're wrong. i believe the child starts at conception, when two people have sex and the man fertilizes the women. argue with it if you want, but don't tell me what i believe. i was simply saying that in some cases i would support abortion because of the extreme trauma and psychological harm having the baby would cause the mother. I still think it is murder, but would never expect a mother that was raped to deliver the child of such a painful and ugly experience. same goes for incest.
despite anyone's view on abortion we all can see that sex is a very important decision, and we can all support safe sex and abstinence. sex is done for pleasure and permantly binds you to that person for the rest of both your lives. it is one of the easiest things for kids to do to fuck up their lives for ever. i'm sure most of you have seen KIDS (larry clark is the fucking bomb by the way). and besides we can all also agree that an abortion is a terrible thing for the mother to go through. physically and emotionally.

peace and love to you all, good luck finding your own place to fit in on this issue. don't let it be something that divides you from other members. we all feel stongly about it and we all have to realize that.

[BuyOurEverything]

Would you support shooting a six year old in the head if it saved its mother some trauma? Of course not. Therefor, you have to admit that at the very least, you regard fetuses as a lesser form of life and not as important as children that have already been born.


sex is done for pleasure and permantly binds you to that person for the rest of both your lives

Of course sex is done for pleasure, as is every other thing do. Explain how it binds you to that person for the rest of your lives because from my experience and observation, it doesn't.


it is one of the easiest things for kids to do to fuck up their lives for ever.

In the current environment, perhaps but that's only because of the pervasivness puritan and fundamentalist attitudes in our society. If abortions, birth control and information was readily available to kids, it wouldn't fuck up their lives. It's a catch 22, the attitude that says sex fucks up your life is in fact the attitude that makes it so sex fucks up your life.

[Alejandro C]

.................................................. ..........



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..........



....


i try and i try.


stop telling me what i believe. for the last fucking time! don't argue with me about what i believe. i know what the fuck i believe and i fucking told you twice already and when you still didn't get it i have to tell you the third time. STOP TELLING ME WHAT I THINK


DON'T TELL ME HOW I 'REGARD' SOMETHING

DON'T TELL ME HOW I FEEL ABOUT SOMETHING

DON'T TELL ME HOW I THINK ABOUT SOMETHING

FOR THE THIRD AND LAST TIME STOP BEING A GODDAMN BASTARD AND STOP TELLING ME WHAT I THINK.



did you get the point that time?


.................................

[RyeN]

But what's to stop him from sticking around just long enough to force his fucked up values on her and then leaving when it's time for him to actually help raise or at least pay for the kid. I guarentee that would happen all the time. Also, how would a pregnant teen prove to an abortion doctor that the father is actually gone? Or for that matter, what's to stop her from just bringing one of her friends to the doctor and saying he's the father and getting him to sign a form or two and then leave?

Why would some one do that? There are laws that make dead beat dads pay. People get thier wages gaurnished and throuwn in jail. I think if he didnt want to pay for a baby he wouldnt make the woman keep it. Im not playing a game of what if here either, I just think that the male has some intrest as well good buddie.

Of course, blame it on the capitalists! Sex is human nature. People will always have sex. Forget the stupid puritan Christian morals that have been forced on you since birth. One thing that really pisses me off about our society is that while sex is promoted everywhere in the media, at the same time, we are told that it is bad and we should feel guilty about it.


Wow, dont try to tie me in with any crazy cristian morals there. Im deffinatley not a monogamist person but I still admit that there are emotional bonds that occur between people when they make love. Maybee not if your a sex degenerat, or some sort of male schauvinist " []D[][]v[][]D ", but for the rest of us there are emtional bonds. People should explore sex to all its posibilities but be educated and wise when doing it.

Of course sex is done for pleasure, as is every other thing do. Explain how it binds you to that person for the rest of your lives because from my experience and observation, it doesn't.

What not everything we do is for pleasure. Sometimes we do things because its the right thing or just because they need doing. Sometimes we do things for pain too. No one said that having sex with a person binds you to them for the rest of your lives. The point has been proven that when people have sex there is an emotianl bond created. To deny you need to be a virgin or a liar.

Heres a solution. Abortions for some, che flags for others.

I agree with Alejandro C The issue seems done.

[shakermaker]

yes, abortion is acceptable in some cases...like if woman is raped or so...
->but if not, atleast they should phone to womb and ask want he/she die...<-stubid comment, I know.< <

[truthaddict11]

Are you saying that a man should not have the choice of wether or not his son or daughter is born. If the sex was concentual then the abortion must be as well. I also understand that in many instances the father is not present in which case he waives his right.

Well as the fetus is part of the womens body then she should be the only one who has a decision in it ,its her damn body&#33;Your idea that the man should have the "right" on the decision is flawed and disgusting. What if the man is strongly opposed to the abortion when the women is not and wants one? What then? :o Abortion is a tough and serious decision for many women to make have the stress of someone strongly opposed saying they have a "right" in that decision wont help one bit


The major problem isnt, should people be able to have an abortion, because the answer is Yes. The more pressing issue is why are all of these people getting pregnant? At least in North America and mst of Europe Birth control is rampant. Why not use some. Thats not even the point though. People need to stop having sex with every beautiful person they met. The Capitolist empire has been slowly brain washing you into thinking this is a good idea.

Birth control fails and condoms break,mistakes happen dont think that those who get pregnant were irresponsible. Your idea that people who get pregnant and have abortions are "whores" though you try to hide it, disgusts me.
Sex with multiple partners existed since the dawn of time, capitalism has nothing to do with it, and communism wont be able to "change" peoples minds on who they fuck either.


Be more responsible and think before you act. It may be hard but there are some pretty serious consequences that come with permescuity. It is posible to have great sex with one person for long periods of time, all you need to do is keep it interesting. Capitolism is tearing the family unit apart and we need to stop it

People do take precautions and know the consequences. Mistakes Happen&#33; Even in monogamous relationships things can go wrong. As for capitalism tearing the "family unit" apart, good riddance.


Why would some one do that? There are laws that make dead beat dads pay.
my parents got divorced 15 years ago never saw one damn cent on money. and whats to stop some fanatical chritian man from being opposed to abortion in any case? still doesnt seem like a good idea.

[redstar2000]

Women who fuck men without protection, knowing that there&#39;s a risk of an unwanted pregnancy are dumb tramps and shouldn&#39;t have the right to abort babies.

Yes, we should "make them suffer".

This, folks, is called misogyny--hatred of women for being women. The use of the phrase "dumb tramps" is the give-away.

Whenever someone posts on this topic and uses words like "slut", "whore", "tramp", "*****"...you should immediately recognize the real attitude that&#39;s being expressed.

They will always deny it of course, often saying something like "I like women, it&#39;s just these xxxxx&#39;s that piss me off."

Would you believe someone who said to you "I like black people, it&#39;s just these n*****s that piss me off."? Or, "I like Jewish people, it&#39;s just these k***s that piss me off."?

Inspite of our best efforts to be "socially acceptable" and "politically correct", the words we choose to use reveal more about our real attitudes than we think.

And this is a very good example of that.


I&#39;m all for men who blow up abortion clinics.

I, on the other hand, am all for feminists who kill guys who have or plan to blow up women&#39;s clinics. I don&#39;t think it&#39;s happened yet, but I hope it will.

I also think it would be a good thing if, in any city where a women&#39;s clinic was blown up or torched, the fanciest and most prestigious cathedral was burned to the ground. That also hasn&#39;t happened yet (to my knowledge), but I think it would be a good thing if it did.

The hatred of women is just another kind of fascism...and should be met with the same response.


People need to stop having sex with every beautiful person they met.

And they need to stop eating and breathing, too. Because they&#39;re dead.


Capitalism is tearing the family unit apart and we need to stop it.

Indeed it is, and Marx and Engels commented on that fact in the Communist Manifesto.

Their views were a little different; they did not think that "we need to stop it" and, in fact, didn&#39;t think it even could be stopped. They appear to have thought that the traditional family was becoming archaic...and on its way out of human history.

They seemed to have been right about that.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[JohnTheMarxist]

U can tell these anti-choice fundamentalists are boviously about 15 and they have been propagandized by all the recent choose life bullshit. Yeah tell choose life to all the women who died before roe v wade was legal. I hope you two dont masterbate...you are wasting all those sperm who could be children&#33; This I hope you know is the same arguement against reproductive control that the nazi pope makes.

[Invader Zim]

Well I am completely pro-abortion, I believe it is a womans fundermental right to have an abortion. Her body, her desicion.

However, having said that, those who say men should have no say what so ever, are chimp brained morons. It is as much a mans child as it is a womans, just because it is the womans body does not change that. The mans view should at least be taken into account, but when it gets down to it, it should be the womans ultimate desision.

While we are on the subject, I believe that abortion should be final resort, rather than a popular (for lack of a better word) contraceptive. The use of convetional contraceptive should be used more, and I dont feel much sympathy for an irosponsble couple. Before abortion adoption should be seriously considered, however I do not believe that a mistake such as not using a condom should be punished so harshley by forcing a woman to give birth. So I disagree with unecessary abortion, but if a woman is pregnant, and wants an abortion, better a qualified docter in a safe enviroment, than a coat hanger in an ally way.

[BXs Prophet]

I&#39;m not a misogynist, but I call a *****, a ***** and a whore, a whore. :)

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2003, 05:44 PM
If you truly believe that a fetus is a child, how could you support killing it sometimes? The fact that you would allow abortions in certain cases is an admission that you don&#39;t really believe fetuses are children after all, which is, of course, correct. Also, with that system, if all a woman needs to do is charge someone with rape, it seems to me there is nothing stopping a woman desperate for an abortion from just accusing a random person of raping her knowing the charges wouldn&#39;t stick but allowing her to get an abortion. On the other hand, if a person had to be convicted of rape in order for a woman to get an abortion, tons of women who were raped but couldn&#39;t prove their case in court would be denied abortions. That whole opinion is fundamentally flawed.
I agree.

I have to thank BoE for the argument about only supporting abortion in certain instances. I had never thought of it that way. There is great logic in it.

On the part about alleging and proving rape:

The examples BoE gives show exactly why such an idea, no matter how valid it may be philosophically (I happen to disagree with the idea, but that&#39;s not important here), is totally absurd to apply to real life.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Originally posted by [email protected] 1 2003, 09:53 PM
I think partial-birth abortions should also be available. Saying that a reproductive cell or mass of cells is not under control of the individual which these cells inhabit uses the same logic as saying that masturbation is a waste of sperm&#33;
I also support the late-term abortion--demonized by the anti-choice crowd as "partial birth abortion." Often, if a mother&#39;s life is endangered by a pregnancy, she will not know until late in the pregnancy.

Ahh... the masturbation argument&#33; Michael Moore pursues this in Downsize This&#33;, I believe. He actually talked to a man at a "pro-life" organization who indeed thought masturbation was murder. Moore was being absurd, of course, but he actually found religious rightists who whole-heartedly agreed with him. Scary&#33;

[BuyOurEverything]

But what&#39;s to stop him from sticking around just long enough to force his fucked up values on her and then leaving when it&#39;s time for him to actually help raise or at least pay for the kid. I guarentee that would happen all the time. Also, how would a pregnant teen prove to an abortion doctor that the father is actually gone? Or for that matter, what&#39;s to stop her from just bringing one of her friends to the doctor and saying he&#39;s the father and getting him to sign a form or two and then leave?

Why would some one do that? There are laws that make dead beat dads pay. People get thier wages gaurnished and throuwn in jail. I think if he didnt want to pay for a baby he wouldnt make the woman keep it. Im not playing a game of what if here either, I just think that the male has some intrest as well good buddie.


Someone would do that because they are a brain dead anti-choicer. People SOMETIMES get their wages garnished or thrown in jail. This usually happens when they have been married and had kids for a while and then the get divorced. Not alot of teenage mothers get child-support from the father.


However, having said that, those who say men should have no say what so ever, are chimp brained morons. It is as much a mans child as it is a womans, just because it is the womans body does not change that. The mans view should at least be taken into account, but when it gets down to it, it should be the womans ultimate desision.

While we are on the subject, I believe that abortion should be final resort, rather than a popular (for lack of a better word) contraceptive. The use of convetional contraceptive should be used more, and I dont feel much sympathy for an irosponsble couple. Before abortion adoption should be seriously considered, however I do not believe that a mistake such as not using a condom should be punished so harshley by forcing a woman to give birth. So I disagree with unecessary abortion, but if a woman is pregnant, and wants an abortion, better a qualified docter in a safe enviroment, than a coat hanger in an ally way.

No it is not a man&#39;s child. It is not anyone&#39;s child because it is in fact NOT A CHILD. I don&#39;t think abortions should be used as a contraceptive either but for practical purposes not any vauge moral reasons. An abortion costs alot more than a condom and it can&#39;t protect against STDs.

Marxist in Nebraska: Thank you. I just fail to see how so many people support abortions only in certain cases. It&#39;s so painfully obvious that this opinion is total shit. These people think fetuses are children which is why they oppose removing ("killing") them. But ask any of them if they would support shooting an actual child if his mother was raped or is under 18 and they&#39;re appalled (as they should be of course.) What&#39;s wrong here?

[redstar2000]

I&#39;m not a misogynist, but I call a *****, a ***** and a whore, a whore.

Yes you are and your language proves it. :angry:

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Originally posted by BXs [email protected] 2 2003, 11:48 AM
I&#39;m not a misogynist, but I call a *****, a ***** and a whore, a whore. :)
Explain to us what exactly is a whore and what is a *****. I just want to know how you make these judgements.

[Hampton]

Wonder Why They Call U- Tupac Shakur

You wonda why they call U *****
You wonda why they call U *****.

Verse One: 2Pac

Look here Miss Thang
hate to salt your game
but yous a money hungry woman
and you need to change.

In tha locker room
all the homies do is laugh.
High five&#39;s cuz anotha nigga
played your ass.

It was said you were sleeezy
even easy
sleepin around for what
you need

See it&#39;s your thang
and you can shake it how you wanna.
Give it up free
or make your money on the corner.

But don&#39;t be bad and play the game
get mad and change.
Then you wonda why these muthafuckas
call you names.

Still lookin&#39; for a way out
and that&#39;s OK
I can see you wanna stray
there&#39;s a way out.

Keep your mind on your money,
enroll in school.
And as the years pass by
you can show them fools.

But you ain&#39;t tryin&#39; to hear me
cuz your stuck,
you&#39;re headin&#39; for the bathroom
&#39;bout to get tossed up.

Still lookin&#39; for a rich man
you dug a ditch,
got your legs up
tryin&#39; to get rich.

I love you like a sista
but you need to switch
and that&#39;s why they called
U *****, I betcha.

Chorus

Verse Two: 2Pac

You leave your kids with your mama
cuz your headin&#39; for the club
in a skin tight miniskirt
lookin&#39; for some love.

Got them legs wide open
while you&#39;re sittin&#39; at the bar
Talkin&#39; to some nigga
&#39;bout his car.

I guess he said he
had a Lexxxus, what&#39;s next?
You headin&#39; to his car for some sex

I pass by
can&#39;t hold back tears inside
cuz, lord knows
for years I tried.

And all the other people
on my block hate your guts
Then you wonda why they stare
and call you slut.

It&#39;s like your mind don&#39;t understand
you don&#39;t have to kill your
dreams ploten&#39;
schemes on a man

Keep your head up, legs closed, eyes open
either a nigga wear a rubber or he die smokin&#39;
I&#39;m hearin&#39; rumors so you need to switch
and niggas wouldn&#39;t call you *****, I betcha.

Chorus

Verse Three: 2Pac

I guess times gettin&#39; hard
even harder for you
cuz, hey now, got a baby
on the way now

More money from the county
and thanks to the welfare
you&#39;re about to
get your hair done.

Got a dinner date
can&#39;t be late
trick or treat, sweet thang
got anotha trick to meet.

The way he did it
it was smooth
plottin&#39; while he gamin&#39; you
So baby, peep tha rules.

I shoulda seen it in the first case
the worst case
I shoulda never called you back
in the first place.

I remember back in high school
baby you was fast
straight sex
and barely move your ass.

But now things change
cuz you don&#39;t look the same
let the ghetto get the best of you
baby, that&#39;s a shame

Caught HIV and now you &#39;bout to be deceased
and finally be in peace.

So where your niggas at now
cuz everybody left
they stepped
and left you on your own

See I loved you like a sista
but you died to quick
And that&#39;s why we called U *****, I betcha.

Chorus

Outro: 2Pac

Dear Ms. Deloris Tucker
keep stressen me
fuckin&#39; with a muthafucken mind
I figured you wanted to know
you know
why we call them hos *****es
and maybe this might help you understand
it ain&#39;t personal
strictly business baby
strictly business

So If you wonder why we call U *****
You wonder why we call U *****
If you wonder why we call U *****
You wonder why we call U *****

[apathy maybe]

I havn&#39;t read the whole thread, but as redstar2000 pointed out it is a popular topic. In fact all the points that are comming up have come up before. So I will not give any for or against but just one point.

I support the right of a random person to kill another random person because the first random person didn&#39;t like or can&#39;t live with the second random person.
Unless the second random person is myself or someone I care for.

[BuyOurEverything]

Let me get this straight. You support the right of someone to murder another person as long as you don&#39;t know them?

[redstar2000]

I figured you wanted to know
you know
why we call them hos *****es,
etc., etc., etc.

Good example of misogynist lyrics.

Young women in class society are often compelled to use their sexuality as a commodity...that is, as a form of labor power to be sold to an employer just like any other. (On certain streets in San Francisco, you can find young men in the same situation.)

Does this merit some kind of "special" condemnation? Have the young women committed some "special" offense that everyone who is employed has not committed?

Aren&#39;t we all the boss&#39;s "ho"? And won&#39;t things stay that way until the bosses are overthrown?

Then why single out women for special condemnation?

Misogyny, that&#39;s why.

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A site about communist ideas

[apathy maybe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2003, 10:50 AM
Let me get this straight. You support the right of someone to murder another person as long as you don&#39;t know them?
Well that is (in my opinion) what abortion is. And no I don&#39;t.

[BuyOurEverything]

Well that is (in my opinion) what abortion is.

Ya i gathered that, which is why I was surprised when you said you supported a woman&#39;s right to an abortion.


And no I don&#39;t.

So you don&#39;t think abortion should be legal?

[Hampton]

I wouldn&#39;t exactly call it misogynistic, in the sense meaning one who hates women. The song is about a woman who he wishes would make some other choices that what she does. You can feel that he has love for her and wants her to change "But don&#39;t be bad and play the game get mad and change." also "I love you like a sista but you need to switch and that&#39;s why they called U *****" Because she dosen&#39;t change and finally dies because of her actions, now why she dosen&#39;t change and feels the need to be treated as a commidity is a whole nother issue I suppose.

He didn&#39;t just call her a ***** because she slept with a lot of people, he called her a ***** because she made stupid choices in her life. I think he would call anyone, male or femlae, a ***** for making not making decesions that would better their life, but insead choose poor decisions.

"More money from the county and thanks to the welfare you&#39;re about to get your hair done."
"Keep your mind on your money, enroll in school. And as the years pass by you can show them fools."

The song is not about a woman who has a lot of sex, dies of AIDS, and is called a ***** for it, she makes bad decisions realted to sex and not, he hoped and tried to help her but ultimately died because of it. It could have easily been switched to the other side of a cowardly man who has sex with women, gets them pregnant, then leaves not providing for the children. I would call him a *****.

[BXs Prophet]

Originally posted by Victorcommie+Oct 2 2003, 11:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Victorcommie @ Oct 2 2003, 11:36 PM)
BXs [email protected] 2 2003, 11:48 AM
I&#39;m not a misogynist, but I call a *****, a ***** and a whore, a whore. :)
Explain to us what exactly is a whore and what is a *****. I just want to know how you make these judgements. [/b]
LOL OK...a whore is any woman who engages in promiscuous sexual intercourse and a ***** is a bad-tempered, ill-mannered, nagging woman...



And i don&#39;t hate women...shit i&#39;ll even prove it to you....come to my house at midnight with a box of Magnum condoms ;) :lol: :ph34r:


[email protected] posting the lyrics to 2pac&#39;s "Wonder why they call you a *****" :lol: :lol: good shit


but for real i love women :wub:

[apathy maybe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2003, 11:43 AM

Well that is (in my opinion) what abortion is.

Ya i gathered that, which is why I was surprised when you said you supported a woman&#39;s right to an abortion.


And no I don&#39;t.

So you don&#39;t think abortion should be legal?
Basicly.

[Soul Rebel]

i love redstar2000, i love redstar2000..... seriously man, you fucking blow my mind. you basically wrote everything i was thinking. as a woman and as a radical feminist i cant thank you enough.

now i want to address some issues:

*sexuality- who the fuck are we to say what is "promiscuous" sex and what isnt? what is the number that we are supposed to go by? is it the same for guys and girls? i find it absolutely ridiculous that people have the need to refer to people by their sexual choices. why should it matter to you what and who they do? what they do sexually has nothing to do with their character. if a woman wants to sleep with 34 men then more fucking power to her. it is her choice and if she enjoys it then she should do it without being looked down upon. why call her a slut or a ho? do you call men this? no you dont. the more womyn men sleep with the more respect they get. any why? what is the difference between a man getting off and a woman getting off? either way a woman never knows what to do sexually- if she dont sleep around she is prude, if she does shes a slut. and people- if we are to address sexuality- lets not discuss who people sleep with and with how many people, but safe sex. we need to be discussing safe sex-vs-unprotected sex, this is what really matters.

*abortion- i am 100% for it. it is a womans choice. it is not a choice for the government, family, friends, strangers, etc. to make- it is for the woman. she is the one pregnant with the child. who are we to say what she should or shouldnt do? abortion has nothing to do with a child- it has to do with the woman, so please people stop asking "and what about the child?"

errr...im too tired to keep writing at the moment. i will finish this later.

[BXs Prophet]

[email protected] a woman letting 34 men fuck ..what a hooker...i bet her hole would be completely worn out.

Women should have more respect for themselves, period.

[Soul Rebel]

What the hell does a womans sexual history have to do with her self-respect? Just because a woman has sex doesnt mean she hates herself. Im a sexually active woman and enjoy sex and have a very high self esteem. My self esteem has never been affected by my sexuality.

If that was the case, men would be so unbelievably down on themselves. But i guess its ok because it actually boosts their self esteem right.

im not going to bother arguing about sexuality with a brainwashed, ignorant misogynist.

[BXs Prophet]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2003, 03:07 AM
What the hell does a womans sexual history have to do with her self-respect? Just because a woman has sex doesnt mean she hates herself. Im a sexually active woman and enjoy sex and have a very high self esteem. My self esteem has never been affected by my sexuality.

If that was the case, men would be so unbelievably down on themselves. But i guess its ok because it actually boosts their self esteem right.

im not going to bother arguing about sexuality with a brainwashed, ignorant misogynist.
"Im a sexually active woman and enjoy sex" - Slut :lol:

[BuyOurEverything]

BXs Prophet: Why do you care how many people a person sleeps with? It has nothing to do with self respect, it has to do with what you enjoy doing. Why is sex any different than anything else people enjoy doing?


"Im a sexually active woman and enjoy sex" - Slut

I&#39;m a sexually active man and enjoy sex - Slut? I don&#39;t think so. Why do you hold women to a different standard then men?

[BXs Prophet]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2003, 03:31 AM
BXs Prophet: Why do you care how many people a person sleeps with? It has nothing to do with self respect, it has to do with what you enjoy doing. Why is sex any different than anything else people enjoy doing?


"Im a sexually active woman and enjoy sex" - Slut

I&#39;m a sexually active man and enjoy sex - Slut? I don&#39;t think so. Why do you hold women to a different standard then men?
Yea, you&#39;re a slut too. :lol:

[BuyOurEverything]

Yes, I&#39;m sure you call guys who are sexually active &#39;sluts&#39; all the time. Internet forums don&#39;t count.

[RyeN]

Im a man and I get called a whore at least once a day. Im not a male whroe but bcause im confident and good with women I get labled as such. Do you think it only goes one way. I dont really care because I know im not that, but as a man its good for my reputation some way. The sick part is the double standard for women. It might not be such an issue if people didnt hold such a horrible double standard.

Maybee SenoraChe you could write a book on how to deal with promesquity. I know alot of girls in there mid twenties that are clinicaly depressed becasue of thier sexual past while they were young and how it affects them now. Maybee they just need to learn how to cope better, or maybee it has something to do with people having emotions.

Birth control fails and condoms break,mistakes happen dont think that those who get pregnant were irresponsible. Your idea that people who get pregnant and have abortions are "whores" though you try to hide it, disgusts me.

Hey now. I understand that these accidents happen, I dont understand why you try to put words into my mouth. I have the utmost respect for women, and men. I think that if your disgusted by my views you should probably learn some better coping skills. Things are ony offensive if you find them offensive. Relax friend Im on your side here. I realy think that the decsion should be up to the people involved.

Someone would do that because they are a brain dead anti-choicer. People SOMETIMES get their wages garnished or thrown in jail. This usually happens when they have been married and had kids for a while and then the get divorced. Not alot of teenage mothers get child-support from the father.


In canada at least and probaly the USA because there 100 times more likley to sue, there are lawers who love getting cases like this. Hundreds of class action suits are filled for the same purposes. I sugest you consult a lawyer if you really have been screwed out of your money. My buddie zaks dad stoped paying for 8 years until they sued him and got close to 7000&#036;.

[BuyOurEverything]

There&#39;s no way you can tell me that a significant percentage of teenage mothers don&#39;t get payed child support. Even if they could hire hire a lawyer, which many of them can&#39;t because lawyers is expensive, most teenage guys don&#39;t have a lot of money to spend on child support anyways.

But that&#39;s not even the point. A fetus is not a child and and nobody except the woman who&#39;s body it is has any right to say what she can or can&#39;t do.


Im a man and I get called a whore at least once a day. Im not a male whroe but bcause im confident and good with women I get labled as such. Do you think it only goes one way. I dont really care because I know im not that, but as a man its good for my reputation some way. The sick part is the double standard for women. It might not be such an issue if people didnt hold such a horrible double standard.

I pretty much agree with you on this but I&#39;d say you can&#39;t even compare I guy getting called a whore to a woman getting called a whore. The reason you can ignore it is because nobody looks down on guys that get called whores, they look up to them.

[RyeN]

Quote "There&#39;s no way you can tell me that a significant percentage of teenage mothers don&#39;t get payed child support. Even if they could hire hire a lawyer, which many of them can&#39;t because lawyers is expensive, most teenage guys don&#39;t have a lot of money to spend on child support anyways."

First off take a look at the phrasing in your first sentence. I think its wrong. I can tell you a signifigant percentage of teenage mothers don&#39;t get payed child support. Sencond of all if they cant hire a lawyer there are class action suits as well, i belive i mentioned that earlier.

Quote "But that&#39;s not even the point. A fetus is not a child and and nobody except the woman who&#39;s body it is has any right to say what she can or can&#39;t do. "

The Body I agree is the womans. However the fetus although unborn and not yet human, when resulting in concetual sex is partial the mans as well.

Quote I pretty much agree with you on this but I&#39;d say you can&#39;t even compare I guy getting called a whore to a woman getting called a whore. The reason you can ignore it is because nobody looks down on guys that get called whores, they look up to them.

Your statement was a Bold sexist remark my friend.

[redstar2000]

The song is about a woman who he wishes would make some other choices than what she does.

Did she ask for his advice?


You can feel that he has love for her and wants her to change "But don&#39;t be bad and play the game get mad and change." also "I love you like a sista but you need to switch and that&#39;s why they called U *****".

I don&#39;t feel any "love" there. His attitude suggests to me that he believes the contempt that others have for her (*****) is justified...and that only if she "changes" will that no longer be the case.

No, it&#39;s not "justified". If this guy had written a song about a woman who became a cop or a mercenary or a greedy landlord or a capitalist pig, etc., then you could say the contempt was justified.

In this case, the only "justification" is misogyny...the idea that it is especially "unacceptable" for a woman to use her sexuality to survive in a patriarchal society.

Had she married some rich "musician", the song would never have been written.


And i don&#39;t hate women...

As I noted earlier, that&#39;s what misogynists always say.


[email protected] a woman letting 34 men fuck ..what a hooker...i bet her hole would be completely worn out.

34 times, eh? And you, has your penis fallen off yet? I&#39;m assuming you&#39;ve had intercourse at least 34 times.


Women should have more respect for themselves, period.

Translation: they should have more respect for your opinions of them.

Why? Why should any sensible woman care about the opinions of a misogynist?

Do people of color worry about the opinions of racists?


Maybe SenoraChe you could write a book on how to deal with promiscuity. I know a lot of girls in there mid-twenties that are clinically depressed because of their sexual past while they were young and how it affects them now.

Or maybe they&#39;re depressed because they live in a patriarchal society that officially despises them because they were sexually active young women.

It is kind of depressing to live in a society that does not consider you "quite human". Almost, but not quite.

If the constitutions of advanced capitalist societies were honest about the matter, they&#39;d officially define a female citizen as "3/5ths of a man".

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A site about communist ideas

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

My right hand is a slut and I&#39;m a filthy manwhore.

This topic makes me wonder if most women aren&#39;t as sexually active as men because they genuinely aren&#39;t as interested or if it&#39;s because they&#39;re afraid of being called a slut.

[Hampton]

Did she ask for his advice?

No she didn&#39;t, hence the reason why he&#39;s saying things which he wished she had done to save her life posthumously.


I don&#39;t feel any "love" there. His attitude suggests to me that he believes the contempt that others have for her (*****) is justified...and that only if she "changes" will that no longer be the case.

You&#39;re right, maybe he did feel was justified because she wasted her life doing the wrong things over and over again, doesn’t see the error in her selfish and ridiculous ways and dies because of it. Like you said she didn&#39;t ask for help which may have saved her life.


No, it&#39;s not "justified". If this guy had written a song about a woman who became a cop or a mercenary or a greedy landlord or a capitalist pig, etc., then you could say the contempt was justified.

Thanks for telling me what I can and can&#39;t say. Tupac was just as anti government and anti police as anyone else probably even more so, most of his songs have a message that a lot of people miss because they have this notion of rap being about money and drugs.


In this case, the only "justification" is misogyny...the idea that it is especially "unacceptable" for a woman to use her sexuality to survive in a patriarchal society.

You forgot a few, like pushing her child away off on her mother so she could go to the club, spending her welfare money to get her hair done and not spending it on the child to buy food and clothes and rent and such, and not going to school to get a job for some real money.


Had she married some rich "musician", the song would never have been written.

Well it was written and if you read the lyrics the song was written in response to Deloris Tucker asking Pac why he calls some women *****es. Yes he was rich, does that make him an evil capitalist murderer who oppress the proletariat? No it doesn’t, I&#39;m not going to get into his whole story about not having a dad and having a mom who was a crack head, but, it would be best to know who this man was before judging him on the amount of money he has and this one song. And I won&#39;t even address putting the word musician in quotes because it is, at best, ridiculous.

[Saint-Just]

I can&#39;t really comment on Tupac&#39;s views and such. But to suggest he is not a talented musician is ridiculous. He is one of the greatest artists ever, most critics will attest that.

If anyone here knows mimcomrade, can you imagine what he would say here? Well I should imagine he sould say that men and women having sex in capitalist society reinforces patriarchy. He says all sex is rape under patriarchy. I do no know what he would say about promiscuity or abortion. He would say that women are all oppressed in capitalist society and that all the sex they have is not their own choice but through patriarchy and therefore never has the consent of the woman.

My own views on the subject are extremely traditional anyhow and not politically influenced, as far as I know. Regardless, I think that any man or woman who is as promiscuous is equally deserving of the label as a &#39;slut&#39; or &#39;whore&#39;. I do not think that is at all sexist. I would suggest that what is sexist or misogynist is to label promiscuous women as &#39;slut&#39; while not doing the same to men. If your standard or morals is that you think it is reasonable to be promiscuous yourself you cannot expect different standards from others and if you expect different standards from women exclusively is misogynist.

[Sabocat]

I would suggest that what is sexist or misogynist is to label promiscuous women as &#39;slut&#39; while not doing the same to men.


The real problem here however is that in todays society, most men consider being called a slut or manwhore a compliment. I don&#39;t think the same could be said for women. It just doesn&#39;t carry the same derogatory weight for a man does it?

Who decides who&#39;s promiscuous and who isn&#39;t? To a shaker, sleeping with any men would be considered promiscuous would it not?

[schumi]

Im pro aborion ESPECIALLY in cases where a young girls get pregnant

[YKTMX]

I support the womens right to choose obviously.

[Sasafrás]

I&#39;m against abortion unless someone gets pregnant as a result of rape or incest. If you willingly have sex and you get pregnant, you don&#39;t deserve to get an abortion because, as many Southerners say, "you shouldn&#39;t have opened your legs." You shouldn&#39;t have been screwing around, so you need to carry that fetal and infant sucker around for 10 months (not 9). But, to each her own. Get an abortion if you want. I won&#39;t be mad at you about it... I guess I&#39;m a bit pro-life and pro-choice at the same time. I don&#39;t think I&#39;d get an abortion myself (unless the pregnancy is a result of that which was first mentioned), but you make your own decisions. I do believe that women should have the right to choose, but I wish they&#39;d choose life.

~ Sas

[Soul Rebel]

To address the question about womyn, sexuality, and self-esteem: womyn do not feel bad because they are sexually active, but because society makes them feel bad for being sexually active. The feeling of hatred or anger that they feel toward themselves is because of the hatred and anger that society has toward sexually active womyn. Womyn are taught to be ashamed of sex and their sexuality.

Once again- who are we, as a society, to say what is promiscuous and what is not? Who the hell cares how many people someone slept with. It is none of our business or the business of other people. Sex is a part of life people and there should be no stanards to hold people by (expect for HER-honesty, equality, and respect).

We need to focus on safe sex- which i cannot stress enough- and thats all.

[Anarchist Freedom]

im not trying to dictate it i mean cmon there is a fuckin person inside you &#33; wtf ok im gunna kill it i wont feel guilt for destroying life because im too lazy or something. I dont want to seem mean or anything but i mean cmon this is a child and how is it not living? Studies have shown that if you leave a born baby alone for long peridos of time it will truly damage the psyche or quite possibly kill it. If we allow for these children to be killed why dont we just cease to be ohh 1 baby is next its 20 next its a million babys ha no~&#33; ok a fetus isnt just some disposable object that shows no meaning it is a human fuckin being if we allowed abortion then we should just give up on children forever anyways if we kill them then what children will there be to help???


P.S. people wont use condoms as usual

:che:

[Anarchist Freedom]

also why dont you just birth the child or sesarian section it?


then adopt it ?

killing it isnt logical


:che:

[BuyOurEverything]

First off take a look at the phrasing in your first sentence. I think its wrong. I can tell you a signifigant percentage of teenage mothers don&#39;t get payed child support. Sencond of all if they cant hire a lawyer there are class action suits as well, i belive i mentioned that earlier.

You can but you&#39;d be wrong. As for class action suits, they don&#39;t work like that, you can&#39;t have a bunch of people each suing a different person all part of the same case.


Your statement was a Bold sexist remark my friend.

Bold and sexist how? I&#39;m a guy and I&#39;m speaking from experience. I can&#39;t believe that you actually think people look down on promiscuous men as they do on women.


The real problem here however is that in todays society, most men consider being called a slut or manwhore a compliment. I don&#39;t think the same could be said for women. It just doesn&#39;t carry the same derogatory weight for a man does it?

Exactly. You can call whoever you want a slut but it has two different meanings depending on the gender of the "slut."

Sasafras: I don&#39;t understand how you can be pro-abortion sometimes and anti-abortion other times. How is a fetus any different in the case of rape or insest?


To address the question about womyn, sexuality, and self-esteem: womyn do not feel bad because they are sexually active, but because society makes them feel bad for being sexually active. The feeling of hatred or anger that they feel toward themselves is because of the hatred and anger that society has toward sexually active womyn. Womyn are taught to be ashamed of sex and their sexuality.

I agree completely.

[BXs Prophet]

Sensitive asses tried to have me restricted :lol: assholes :rolleyes:

[redstar2000]

You&#39;re right, maybe he did feel was justified because she wasted her life doing the wrong things over and over again, doesn&#39;t see the error in her selfish and ridiculous ways and dies because of it. Like you said she didn&#39;t ask for help which may have saved her life.

Does this mean that "because" she didn&#39;t ask for this guy&#39;s help, she&#39;s a "*****"?


Thanks for telling me what I can and can&#39;t say.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth. You can say anything you please. You can expect that if someone disagrees, they will let you know about it.


...most of his songs have a message that a lot of people miss because they have this notion of rap being about money and drugs.

Whereas this song is about money and sex.


You forgot a few, like pushing her child away off on her mother so she could go to the club, spending her welfare money to get her hair done and not spending it on the child to buy food and clothes and rent and such, and not going to school to get a job for some real money.

If every mother who has ever had her own mother watch her child while she went to work (whatever that work might be) is a "*****"...then there are hundreds of millions of them.(&#33;)

Spending money to get her hair done is an "occupational expense"...no different than a mechanic buying a new tool.

As to going to school, you might be quite shocked at the number of women who work in the sex industry to put themselves through school. A woman who holds a "McJob" will have neither the money nor the energy nor the time to go to school...it&#39;s simply not practical, particularly if she&#39;s also a mother.

Not to mention the fact that there are lots of college graduates out there who are very far from "real money"...often because they don&#39;t want to do what you have to do in this society to get "real money".


...and if you read the lyrics the song was written in response to Deloris Tucker asking Pac why he calls some women *****es. Yes he was rich, does that make him an evil capitalist murderer who oppress[es] the proletariat?

Well, his response sucks&#33;

As to his personal wealth, you tell me what he did with it.

The usual practice in the entertainment industry is to hire someone to "manage your wealth"...this is done by investing in various corporations who make a profit by...well, you know what they do.

Perhaps he did otherwise...but once people get rich, they change...a lot&#33;&#33;&#33;

They may indeed still "talk the talk"...but their actual behavior is usually very different.

If you are wealthy in capitalist society, you are "special"...and that is something that you are not allowed to forget--and in time, you won&#39;t let anyone else forget it either.

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The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2003, 05:46 PM
also why dont you just birth the child or sesarian section it?


then adopt it ?

killing it isnt logical


:che:
Putting children up for adoption is emotionaly harmful to the child, I would imagine.

It doesn&#39;t matter what you think is logical, you&#39;re a man&#33; The point is that women must be given the choice. Nobody, for no reason, may judge what can and what cannot be inside of a woman.

BXs Prophet, why do you care what is done to a bunch of cells in a woman&#39;s uterus? It&#39;s none of your business, why do you care? Are you emotionaly attached to it? Why does it have rights? Do its "rights" come before those of the woman?

Why are womens&#39; sexual actions looked down upon, but mens&#39; aren&#39;t?

[redstar2000]

My own views on the subject are extremely traditional anyhow and not politically influenced, as far as I know.

You just contradicted yourself. Do you think "tradition" just falls out of the sky?

No, you have (unconsciously, no doubt) absorbed a patriarchal view of sexual "morality"...one that actually is pre-capitalist and goes back to the time when women were property (nomadism).

You put a contemporary "spin" on it by applying it to men as well as women...but that doesn&#39;t change its fundamental absurdity.

Sex is an appetite, like thirst or hunger. To deliberately refuse to satisfy it with an attractive and willing partner is as dumb as deliberately going thirsty or hungry.

To hold those who do enjoy the pleasures of the flesh in some kind of special contempt is just neo-puritanical arrogance.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2003, 09:30 PM
You put a contemporary "spin" on it by applying it to men as well as women...but that doesn&#39;t change its fundamental absurdity.
exactly&#33;

[Hampton]

Does this mean that "because" she didn&#39;t ask for this guy&#39;s help, she&#39;s a "*****"?

Hardly, she&#39;s a ***** because she killed herself with her ignorant actions and wasn&#39;t thinking about her child when she did them.


Whereas this song is about money and sex.

You fail to see the message of the song. It involves those things but the underlying message is not to glorify sex and money because she dies doing and attaing those things.


If every mother who has ever had her own mother watch her child while she went to work (whatever that work might be) is a "*****"...then there are hundreds of millions of them.(&#33;)

Read the lyrics, she didn&#39;t hand the kind off and go to night school, she handed the kid off and went to a club to get laid by a man she knew for 5 minutes.


Spending money to get her hair done is an "occupational expense"...no different than a mechanic buying a new tool.

Sooo, you&#39;re saying iit was right of her to spend her welfare check on her hair? What were her other sources of income? Gullible men who gave her money and bought her gifts? Good way of supporting your child.


Well, his response sucks&#33;

One man&#39;s opinion who&#39;s never heard the song or any other Tupac song opposed to the milions who bought the album.


As to his personal wealth, you tell me what he did with it.

This isn&#39;t the Tupac biography forum, find out for yourself and learn intresting facts.


If you are wealthy in capitalist society, you are "special"...and that is something that you are not allowed to forget--and in time, you won&#39;t let anyone else forget it either.

Well this may be true, ask yourself why he was watched by the FBI along with his East Coast rival Christopher Wallace. And why his stepfather, political prisoner and his mother former Black Panther, think that the FBI murdered them both. They were both special, so special that they had to be murdered to ease the grip that rap music had on people, thus not allowing the FBI&#39;s long fear of giving rise to a black messiah.

[RyeN]

quote "Putting children up for adoption is emotionaly harmful to the child, I would imagine."

I would imagine it is more emotionaly harmful to abort the child though.

[Sasafrás]

Okay... Um, I enjoy sex a lot. I think it&#39;a a great thing.. But I still do not think that people should senselessly engage in the activity excessively. I know people who have sex with "attractive and willing" people who they&#39;ve only known for a week. It&#39;s just plain nasty. It&#39;s one thing to enjoy sex, but it&#39;s another to sleep around or sleep with people who you simply should not sleep with. I guess, maybe I see sex as being something that should be special while others think that it&#39;s not a big deal at all. <_<

Hence one of my bigger problems with women getting abortions. Many women who abort their babies do so because they&#39;ve been sleeping around and having meaningless and casual sex and they just don&#39;t want to face the consequences of their actions. To me, it&#39;s pretty sad.

And, I do believe it&#39;s better to put a child up for adoption. Sure, the birthing process is a painful one, but imagine the emotional hurt that women (who actually have feelings) bear when they abort their babies. I think one may as well just bring the child to light and give it to a family who cares. There are so many couples in the world who can&#39;t procreate because of certain issues, but countless women decide to abort their babies rather than just give birth to them and allow these couples to adopt the children. Sounds to me like a lot of wasted lives...

~ Sasafras http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/party/party-smiley-017.gif

[truthaddict11]

you people are aware that married couples have abortions too right?

[BXs Prophet]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2003, 09:36 AM
you people are aware that married couples have abortions too right?
Married women who have abortions should recieve the electric chair....no no no...thats getting off easy..she should be stoned to death...

[shakermaker]

Originally posted by BXs [email protected] 4 2003, 09:54 AM
thats getting off easy..she should be stoned to death...
that&#39;s too cruel&#33;
...and don&#39;t say that killing fetus is not, I know it is...

[redstar2000]

Hardly, she&#39;s a ***** because she killed herself with her ignorant actions and wasn&#39;t thinking about her child when she did them.

Perhaps she really was a "total fuckup"...no one bothered to write a song from her point of view.

Aren&#39;t you at least curious what she might have had to say?


Sooo, you&#39;re saying it was right of her to spend her welfare check on her hair? What were her other sources of income? Gullible men who gave her money and bought her gifts? Good way of supporting your child.

It was her way.

I don&#39;t know about you, but I&#39;m starting to suspect that Mr. Tupac was simply unable to imagine how things are from a woman&#39;s point of view.

It seems that many men can&#39;t...which may be why they are so quick to call women "*****es" and "whores" and "sluts".


One man&#39;s opinion who&#39;s never heard the song or any other Tupac song opposed to the millions who bought the album.

I don&#39;t see how album sales have anything to do with political questions.

You posted the lyrics of one song (no one made you do it). Once you do that, it&#39;s up for the same political examination and criticism as any other post.

Perhaps Mr. Tupac wrote many excellent political songs and this was just an aberration, a mistake.

But then you said yourself that he wrote this song because a woman asked him why he was "always" calling women "*****es" and "whores". That suggests that it wasn&#39;t just a "mistake"...that, in fact, he was a misogynist.


They were both special, so special that they had to be murdered to ease the grip that rap music had on people, thus not allowing the FBI&#39;s long fear of giving rise to a black messiah.

For the FBI to murder people is not unknown. For them to do so to prevent the "rise of a black messiah" sounds utterly wacko.

You are undoubtedly more of an authority on "the grip that rap music has on people" than I am. I simply note that the U.S. government uses rap music to torture political prisoners...and confess that if they used it against me, I would spill my guts within a few minutes.

Some things are too much to bear.

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A site about communist ideas

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

In Brazil countless women die, become sterile, or severely injuredf from trying to abort their fetuses or from receiving an abortion from inexperienced illegal abortion doctors. You see, in Brazil the Catholic church has immense power and influence, and because of this abortion is illegal there.

Here&#39;s a story: when we lived in Brazil, we had a maid who became pregnant, she was about 18. She didn&#39;t really wnat to make a decision about her fetus, and neither did her boyfriend. They kept putting it off and ignoring it. When she reached her 5th month, she became desperate and hurryied to some illegal abortion clinic. The doctor was not expecting a 5-month old baby, and he didn&#39;t have the means to abort it. The gilr thought she was fine and that the baby had been successfuly aborted. She ended up in the hospital and it was revealed that only a leg had been removed, the child had been killed, the uterus had ruptured, and the dead, bleeding child was beging to rot inside of her. The baby had been jammed up into her rib cage. The hospital managed to remove the baby, but she became completely sterile. :(

We had another maid later on who also became pregnant, she aborted herself with a clotheshanger. It was a successful abortion, but she also wounded herself pretty badly. :(

Damn catholics&#33; :angry:

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2003, 02:30 AM

My own views on the subject are extremely traditional anyhow and not politically influenced, as far as I know.

You just contradicted yourself. Do you think "tradition" just falls out of the sky?

No, you have (unconsciously, no doubt) absorbed a patriarchal view of sexual "morality"...one that actually is pre-capitalist and goes back to the time when women were property (nomadism).

You put a contemporary "spin" on it by applying it to men as well as women...but that doesn&#39;t change its fundamental absurdity.

Sex is an appetite, like thirst or hunger. To deliberately refuse to satisfy it with an attractive and willing partner is as dumb as deliberately going thirsty or hungry.

To hold those who do enjoy the pleasures of the flesh in some kind of special contempt is just neo-puritanical arrogance.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas
Traditions are politically influenced however my adoption of these traditional views is not politically influenced. I admit that there was leeway for interpretation of that statement, but I think to say I do not know that tradition is politically influenced gives suggests I have a lowly intellect. I wonder whether its worth replying to you when you give me so little credit for my thought.

but that doesn&#39;t change its fundamental absurdity.

I agree on your evaluation of my views, however not on their &#39;fundamental absurdity&#39;. This is because I think sex is a rather different matter to thirst or hunger. Eating bread and drinking water does not emotionally involve two people on a high level. Would you say it is acceptable for someone to sleep with someone else whilst they are in a relationship with one person? It is not because sex signifies a bond between two people and therefore you break it by sleeping with someone else. Sex has developed as a physical means to display emotion. It should not be undertaken outside a long-term relationship.

[truthaddict11]

Originally posted by BXs [email protected] 3 2003, 08:57 PM
Sensitive asses tried to have me restricted :lol: assholes :rolleyes:
thats right you should be banned

[BXs Prophet]

Originally posted by truthaddict11+Oct 4 2003, 09:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (truthaddict11 @ Oct 4 2003, 09:42 PM)
BXs [email protected] 3 2003, 08:57 PM
Sensitive asses tried to have me restricted :lol: assholes :rolleyes:
thats right you should be banned [/b]
LOL...bann me then :)

[truthaddict11]

i dont have the authority to ban you (if i did you would have been so right after your comment on killing women who have abortions) but if you keep up your dumbass attitude i dont see why the admins wouldnt.

[Anarchist Freedom]

well i can agree with you victorcommie and i cant but if you allow for abortion to happen in i mean like huge numbers which could happen because people would have un-protected sex knowing they could have an abortion and there is the same level of emotional strain involved with killing a child as there is adopting one am i right?



:che:

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

No, sf88. Because an abortion is something that the mother can normaly get over relatively fast. A child being available for adoption I imagine gives the child the impression that he is unwanted, and he is. :( If he is adopted, then his pain may be partialy eased. If he is not, then I imagine he will be the most miserable child on earth, not being loved by anyone, even your own parents.

In America abortion is legal, ana women don&#39;t over do it, do they? People still preffer to be protected during sex. And there is no current problem of a lack of children.

[redstar2000]

I think to say I do not know that tradition is politically influenced gives suggests I have a lowly intellect.

It isn&#39;t a matter of "intellect"...unconscious adoption of "traditional views" even happens to "geniuses".

If we fail to develop the habit of subjecting all social ideas to critical examination, we will inevitably absorb bits and pieces and chunks of the "accepted opinion" of whatever social group we happen to find ourselves in.

If you grow up in a racist society, for example, you have to make a conscious effort to overcome the racism that you absorbed "without paying attention". It doesn&#39;t just "happen".

Growing up in a class society dominated by the bourgeoisie, you have to make a conscious effort to overcome bourgeois ideology, bourgeois values, bourgeois philosophy.

Look, in fact, at this board. Many people have overcome "the old shit" partially...the part of contemporary society that they subjected to critical examination and rejected. The rest just stays in the back of their brains, influencing their views...and they don&#39;t even "know" it.

For example, there were two posts in the Commie Club forum today that said, in effect, "what&#39;s offensive about calling a slut a slut?"

Can you imagine them saying "what&#39;s offensive about calling a n****r a n****r?" Of course not&#33; They know that racist language is unacceptable on the left.

It has never occurred to them to question sexist language. They&#39;ve examined racism consciously and rejected it. They&#39;ve never examined patriarchal misogyny critically...so they just repeat "what everybody knows"...that some women really "are" "sluts".


Would you say it is acceptable for someone to sleep with someone else whilst they are in a relationship with one person? It is not because sex signifies a bond between two people and therefore you break it by sleeping with someone else. Sex has developed as a physical means to display emotion. It should not be undertaken outside a long-term relationship.

If you rephrased that statement to insert the word "I" in the appropriate places, then I would not quarrel with your views. You have every right to conduct your sex life as you and your partner(s) see fit...and it&#39;s absolutely none of my business.

But that is true of everyone else as well&#33;

One of the "by-products" (or epiphenomenon) of class society is the regulation of sexuality for the purpose of orderly inheritance of property. The use of religion for this purpose is well known.

Since religion is not in such great shape these days, defenders of class society have fallen back on secular arguments--the use of "psychology" to develop "arguments" for "traditional morality" is also well known.

And, of course, there is always fear. Sexual indulgence used to involve the "palpable risk" of "Hellfire"...now, we just tell people that if they have lots of sex with lots of partners, they will get AIDS and die.

Eventually, AIDS will become a curable disease...and who knows what they will threaten us with next?

But behind all this is a simple fact: property. The abolition of private property and the right of inheritance means that there will no longer be any material basis for "traditional sexual morality".

And that should finally put an end to it.

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A site about communist ideas

[RyeN]

If he is adopted, then his pain may be partialy eased. If he is not, then I imagine he will be the most miserable child on earth, not being loved by anyone, even your own parents.

I imagine that there would be some emotional issues due to the abodoment. This doesnt however mean that children put up for adoption wont be loved by anyone. I used to be in love with a girl who was adopted. The fact that her parents ad given up on her didnt stop me from caring.

[dopediana]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2003, 12:17 AM
well i can agree with you victorcommie and i cant but if you allow for abortion to happen in i mean like huge numbers which could happen because people would have un-protected sex knowing they could have an abortion and there is the same level of emotional strain involved with killing a child as there is adopting one am i right?
oh for fuck&#39;s sake. people don&#39;t use a condom because they figure "oh, i&#39;ll just get an abortion if i get pregnant." an abortion costs a LOT more than a condom. 500 dollars for an abortion vs a nice 65 cent grape flavored one you picked up at condom kingdom on south street? oh, the answer is so fucking obvious.


victor, i agree with you completely. abortion needs to be a safe option, not a dreaded but "necessary" option. in brazil you have so many women who end up pregnant. and unlike the states, putting the baby up for adoption is NOT an option. you have so many people living on the street already that it would be fucking disgusting for the government to have an adoption agency while you have emaciated people leaning up against huge ritzy apartment buildings on the side that the porteiro can&#39;t see them.

and also, we don&#39;t have orphanages in america. kids up for adoption are bounced around from foster home to foster home. they never truly have a chance to drop anchor because they switch caregivers so often, they&#39;re seriously phsycologically fucked up, some foster parents are abusive. not to say that this is how it happens in every case and that it would be a better option to just abort the child, but the best thing we can do is get people to be responsible about their adult loving.

alot of foster kids never get adopted. and from stuff i&#39;ve read, plenty of prospective parents would rather have babies, not teens who&#39;ve been all over the place. you do the emotional math.

[the SovieT]

this thread is fucking stupid..



Its the women decision if she should abort or no...


thje rest of us must shut up unless your the father...


its PRO-CHOICE or STFU (shut the fuck up)
the choice is obvious....

[Ian]

I&#39;m pro-choice

[BXs Prophet]

:huh: where&#39;s the commie club forum? :unsure:

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2003, 01:16 AM
If you rephrased that statement to insert the word "I" in the appropriate places, then I would not quarrel with your views. You have every right to conduct your sex life as you and your partner(s) see fit...and it&#39;s absolutely none of my business.

But that is true of everyone else as well&#33;

One of the "by-products" (or epiphenomenon) of class society is the regulation of sexuality for the purpose of orderly inheritance of property. The use of religion for this purpose is well known.

Since religion is not in such great shape these days, defenders of class society have fallen back on secular arguments--the use of "psychology" to develop "arguments" for "traditional morality" is also well known.

And, of course, there is always fear. Sexual indulgence used to involve the "palpable risk" of "Hellfire"...now, we just tell people that if they have lots of sex with lots of partners, they will get AIDS and die.

Eventually, AIDS will become a curable disease...and who knows what they will threaten us with next?

But behind all this is a simple fact: property. The abolition of private property and the right of inheritance means that there will no longer be any material basis for "traditional sexual morality".

And that should finally put an end to it.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

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A site about communist ideas
I agree that it is down to people&#39;s own choice. I do not try to force my opinion on this subject on to other people. I have been brought up around people who are sexually, quite liberal. The only area where I do take my views is my own relationships. Unfortunately women don&#39;t enjoy you criticising them for having lost their virginity or for being promiscuous.

Ultimately I cannot conduct my sex life precisely how I want since it relies on other people who usually have different views. I find most people don&#39;t look down on male or female promiscuity although they do tend to treat women poorly. I look down on male and female promiscuity and sexism. I think its extremely difficult to fathom which of these ideas are old and which are new, which will benefit society most and which will do the most damage and so ultimately which are the most progressive.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Originally posted by BXs [email protected] 5 2003, 08:01 AM
:huh: where&#39;s the commie club forum? :unsure:
You can&#39;t see it because you&#39;re not a member. You may apply once you achieve your 50th post. If you want CC access, I can ask an admin or a mod to give you access, eh?

[Anarchist Freedom]

heres the way i see it that child that just got aborted could have been amercas revolutionary&#33; but he isnt anymore he is a dead carkass




:che:

[Hampton]

For the FBI to murder people is not unknown. For them to do so to prevent the "rise of a black messiah" sounds utterly wacko.

Utterly wacko but true.

[the SovieT]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2003, 05:43 PM
heres the way i see it that child that just got aborted could have been amercas revolutionary&#33; but he isnt anymore he is a dead carkass




:che:
dont worry we still have the americas idiot...


YOU&#33;


think for a fucking second..

the kid will not be born a revolutionary nor a leader..

he will EVENTUALLY become one by a meere cause-efect events...


but i guess thats jsut too hard for you to understand :rolleyes:

[(*]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2003, 01:43 PM
heres the way i see it that child that just got aborted could have been amercas revolutionary&#33; but he isnt anymore he is a dead carkass




:che:
He could have murdered a dozen people...
He could have been the next president and decide to destroy the entire world.
He could have been a She.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2003, 01:10 PM

For the FBI to murder people is not unknown. For them to do so to prevent the "rise of a black messiah" sounds utterly wacko.

Utterly wacko but true.
Point taken&#33;

From the context, it looks to have been written after the murder of Malcolm X but prior to the murder of King...that is, while the FBI was still the fiefdom of the utterly wacko J. Edgar Hoover.

Do you think they are still loony enough today to believe in "black messiahs"? And to kill anyone they think might be a plausible candidate for the role?

At the moment, I think they have other priorities...mainly swarthy folk with Muslim names.

But in all honestly, I have to admit that you could be right. They could very well still have a "hit list" of prominent black people that will be assassinated under certain circumstances.

The irony, of course, is that there&#39;s no such thing as "messiahs"...when people are ready to liberate themselves, they "just do it".

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

:o
Everyone&#33; Come and see&#33;
redstar is admitting he may be wrong&#33;
Make this a sticky and lock the thread before he takes it back&#33;

:lol:
j/k, comarde

[redstar2000]

I&#39;ve admitted three mistakes today. Look in the "monopoly of legitimate violence" thread in Theory.

It hasn&#39;t been a good day. :(

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

I&#39;m sorry, comarde, it wasn&#39;t meant to offend you.
Have a smoke. :)

[Soul Rebel]

Originally posted by Sasafrá[email protected] 4 2003, 08:30 AM
Okay... Um, I enjoy sex a lot. I think it&#39;a a great thing.. But I still do not think that people should senselessly engage in the activity excessively. I know people who have sex with "attractive and willing" people who they&#39;ve only known for a week. It&#39;s just plain nasty. It&#39;s one thing to enjoy sex, but it&#39;s another to sleep around or sleep with people who you simply should not sleep with. I guess, maybe I see sex as being something that should be special while others think that it&#39;s not a big deal at all. <_<

Hence one of my bigger problems with women getting abortions. Many women who abort their babies do so because they&#39;ve been sleeping around and having meaningless and casual sex and they just don&#39;t want to face the consequences of their actions. To me, it&#39;s pretty sad.

And, I do believe it&#39;s better to put a child up for adoption. Sure, the birthing process is a painful one, but imagine the emotional hurt that women (who actually have feelings) bear when they abort their babies. I think one may as well just bring the child to light and give it to a family who cares. There are so many couples in the world who can&#39;t procreate because of certain issues, but countless women decide to abort their babies rather than just give birth to them and allow these couples to adopt the children. Sounds to me like a lot of wasted lives...

~ Sasafras http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/party/party-smiley-017.gif
Im sorry if this sounds like a "*****y" thing to say safaras, and please dont take it as a personal attack, because its not---- but that is the biggest bunch of crap ever for so many different reasons.

What do you consider to be "sensless sex" or "excessive sex"? Who are you to say what this is? Sure you may have a certain standard, but that is your standard. There is no reason for you to apply it to other people. People should have the right to do what they want with who they want (if they are willing) without being criticized for it. How do you know that these people arent enjoying what they do and with who they do it with? I dont understand how "having sex" and "sleeping around" are different. They are the same fucking thing- you are doing the same thing: having sex, even though it may be with different people. Its ridiculous to say that its nasty. And who shouldnt people sleep with? Damn, people should be allowed to sleep with whomever they want (as long as there is consent and its age appropriate). Just because you wont sleep with a certain person doesnt mean i shouldnt or just because you dont approve doesnt mean i shouldnt either. And how do you know that each sexual experience isnt special for these people? You think its only special if shared with one specific person, which isnt true. You can sleep with a ton of people and feel something awesome towards them or have a nice experience with each one. Special has a different meaning to people.

As for the abortion comment- you constantly keep repeating the same myth that the right has been tossing into the public to make abortion illegal, to control womyns bodies. Its really sad that you would believe this myth. How do you know why womyn abort children? Have you done a quantitative study on it? Have you discussed abortion with thousands or millions of womyn of every race, class, sexuality, age about abortion? No you havent so you really cant say why womyn get abortions. And most studies done on abortion show a variety of reasons and sleeping around does not happen to be the first reason why womyn abort. And what about men? You put all the blame on womyn and that is sad.

And no adoption is not better. Adoption is probably the worst thing you could do to a child. Do you know how many fucking children are put into adoption? And most of these children never get adopted- they just end up getting stuck in a system where nobody fucking wants them. How is that better? Can you imagine how it feels to be a child who nobody wants? Or getting passed from home to home (foster care)? And how the fuck can you say that womyn who get an abortion dont have feelings? You think that they are monsters or something? Well, reality check, no they are not. These are womyn who hurt and deal with reality- they have to face their family and friends and partners, who may or may not criticize them. Abortion is not an easy choice, but it is a necessary option. And you say that these womyn should give the child to a family who cares. Explain to me why there are so many children in adoption and foster care if there is such a demand for them? Why hasn&#39;t anyone come to get these children? That to me is a lot of wasted lives. There is no reason to bring something to life if its not really going to live.


This is for a lot of the anti-choicers---- you keep forgetting that there are a lot of economic reasons for abortion too. Not everyone can afford other forms of birth control, which many of you have forgotten or take for granted (since you can afford it). Many people cannot afford to have a child, so its very ignorant of you to say that they shoul just have it. Try explaining that to a two parent household who already has 4 children and are making minimum wage and can barely pay the rent or buy food. Also, a lot of people arent educated about birth control- they dont know how to use b.c. or where to get it- thanks to abstinence only sex ed. There are just so many other issues that many of you arent taking into consideration. You just see it from one stance and thats it, but you cant do that, especially if you consider yourself to be a leftist.

[truthaddict11]

SenoraChe

I think youd like this shirt

http://www.akpress.org/images_sm/akcat_2197.jpg

[Soul Rebel]

teheheeee.... thats where i got my sig from&#33;&#33;&#33; did you get the shirt at http://www.ideviate.net? they have awesome shit there.

[truthaddict11]

i got it from AK Press (http://www.akpress.org) check it out

[Anarchist Freedom]

well i guess you can say that abortion is somewhat right and somewhat wrong thanx to this i have been persuaded


whoily shit redstar is admitting he is wrong shit call the news no wait fuck the news we need to tell the world&#33;



:che:

[BuyOurEverything]

well i guess you can say that abortion is somewhat right and somewhat wrong thanx to this i have been persuaded

In the same way an appendectomy is somewhat right and somewhat wrong... in other words not at all. It is a surgical procedure and is completely amoral.

[dopediana]

i would like to point out the fact for those not well-enough acquainted with the female body to make assumptions yet stupid enough to do so, that the vagina does not get "worn out." it does not change much at all, except with childbirth, and even that is minimal and heals. whether a woman has had sex with one or 100 men in her life does not mean the one who has been with more men will have a lesser ability to induce sexual satisfaction. get over yourselves, you goddamn pubescent virgin poseurs.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

I&#39;m extremely glad you pointed taht out, Diana. Guys at my school are such fucking chauvinists, they actualy think that a woman can be "worn out" from "too much sex"&#33; And most of these asses have had sex, or say they have sex with more than one girl, yet they are still conservative enough to demand that they&#39;re wife be a virgin&#33; :angry:

[Ian]

But Diana, Womyn only get 200 000 ova in their life, they can&#39;t just waste them getting pregnant&#33; ;) :rolleyes:

[Soul Rebel]

well there is some change in the vagina- but in the later stages of life (like after menopause). There is a loss in elasticity and more dryness ( lubrication ability goes down, even when aroused.) But in general, it has nothing to do with sex, but with age. Its the course of nature, nothing else.

[Soul Rebel]

Originally posted by the amaryllis+Oct 7 2003, 04:06 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (the amaryllis @ Oct 7 2003, 04:06 AM)
Ian [email protected] 7 2003, 03:56 AM
But Diana, Womyn only get 200 000 ova in their life, they can&#39;t just waste them getting pregnant&#33; ;) :rolleyes:
ova don&#39;t run out from having sex, silly. they run out through the course of menstruation. what do you propose we do with those ova besides let them be fertilized or not anyway? donate them to charity? as if&#33; (dedicated to the "full house" show that laura is watching at the moment)

i&#39;ll just bleed all over you and see how you like my ova then, ian. [/b]
damn you di&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; sharing my secret with people&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

YES, I WATCH FULL HOUSE ON NICK AT NITE&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

Everybody knows.

They&#39;re all going to laugh at me... they&#39;re all going to laugh.....

The madness...

[dopediana]

well, i&#39;ll admit to you that i was quite the sucker for pete & pete. best show ever. and i have "a bug&#39;s life" bedsheets (corporate disney i know, but i was a little kid). there. i&#39;ve come out of the closet now.

[Soul Rebel]

nawh- i hear ya. I used to love Clarissa Explains It All. I still do actually. It was a great show. Pete and Pete was awesome too. Camp Awguwana (spelling?) was the shit as well. Nick rocks.

Just a bit of info.- i dont usually watch full house. im waiting for the cosby show to come on. usually i watch golden girls, but its not on right now because some movie is on. i really dont like tv. but im on the computer (obviously) and need some noise in here.

[Ian]

Originally posted by the [email protected] 7 2003, 04:16 AM
and i have "a bug&#39;s life" bedsheets (corporate disney i know, but i was a little kid)
Erm, I though a bugs life came out like last year :P


I really should have thought through the whole ova thing... So the deal is womyn lose 1 a month until their late 40&#39;s no matter how many times they are pregnant... right well I&#39;m gonna fail biology but that&#39;s coool... as long as nobody bleeds on me

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

so... what about that abortion thing, eh?

Nevermind. I like All That and Kenan & Kel and the Camp Awagasomething show, I&#39;m pretty sure the name of the show wasn&#39;t the name of the camp, but it was still great. :) I remember Pete and Pete, i was a bit young, however, and Clarissa Explainst it All I always thought wasn&#39;t so great.

Bugs Life is a very communist movie. C&#39;mon, it&#39;s about ants who win a glorious revolution against their oppressors&#33; :)

[dopediana]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2003, 04:21 AM
nawh- i hear ya. I used to love Clarissa Explains It All. I still do actually. It was a great show. Pete and Pete was awesome too. Camp Awguwana (spelling?) was the shit as well. Nick rocks.

Just a bit of info.- i dont usually watch full house. im waiting for the cosby show to come on. usually i watch golden girls, but its not on right now because some movie is on. i really dont like tv. but im on the computer (obviously) and need some noise in here.
ah yes&#33;&#33;&#33; clarissa explains it all really kicked ass. i had a semi crush on ferguson when i was 9. and i loved that camp show. i don&#39;t think anyone remembers the name though. i do remember that venus de milo was in it. but just cos of the statue. do you remember that cartoon, "doug"? that was the greatest, honestly. patty mayonnaise. hahaha.

[Soul Rebel]

it was the name of the show. i think it was Camp Anawana. I have no idea how to spell it. I even remember the song :)

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2003, 03:55 AM
I&#39;m extremely glad you pointed taht out, Diana. Guys at my school are such fucking chauvinists, they actualy think that a woman can be "worn out" from "too much sex"&#33; And most of these asses have had sex, or say they have sex with more than one girl, yet they are still conservative enough to demand that they&#39;re wife be a virgin&#33; :angry:
Its natural for most men to desire their wife to be a virgin, I don&#39;t see why women don&#39;t feel the same way. You can&#39;t blame men for thinking the vagina gets more worn out since it does seem a lot more tender than the male genitalia.

[truthaddict11]

i split this topic to keep it at its original disussion please use this (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=12&t=17914&st=0&) thread for posting on television shows

[redstar2000]

You can&#39;t blame men for thinking the vagina gets more worn out since it does seem a lot more tender than the male genitalia.

Don&#39;t they teach kids sex education anymore?

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[commieboy]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2003, 04:34 AM
it was the name of the show. i think it was Camp Anawana. I have no idea how to spell it. I even remember the song :)
the show was salute your shorts....early mid 90&#39;s kids show..... Camp anawana, we hold you in our hearts...&#33;

but i&#39;m a guy and i think this way about abortion...

A girls body is up to her, not her parents, not her boyfriend, not her reverend...ITS HER CHOICE&#33; Because once again, her body, her choice and no one should knock her for choosing either one.

[Hate Is Art]

does the baby get a choice in whether or not it lives?

i think abortion is wrong unless it is dangerous to woman to continue the pregnancy.

[dopediana]

Originally posted by Chairman Mao+Oct 7 2003, 04:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Chairman Mao @ Oct 7 2003, 04:14 PM)
[email protected] 7 2003, 03:55 AM
I&#39;m extremely glad you pointed taht out, Diana. Guys at my school are such fucking chauvinists, they actualy think that a woman can be "worn out" from "too much sex"&#33; And most of these asses have had sex, or say they have sex with more than one girl, yet they are still conservative enough to demand that they&#39;re wife be a virgin&#33; :angry:
Its natural for most men to desire their wife to be a virgin, I don&#39;t see why women don&#39;t feel the same way. You can&#39;t blame men for thinking the vagina gets more worn out since it does seem a lot more tender than the male genitalia. [/b]
who doubles over with pain and anguish when kicked in the genitalia? whose genitalia is EXPOSED first of all? if you want my opinion, the male genitalia is far more tender. men need to figure out how a woman&#39;s body works and not brag about their sexual prowess when, according to you, they apparently know next to nothing.

and i don&#39;t think it&#39;s so much as the desire for a spouse to be a virgin as the abhorration of the thought that someone else might have had intimate relations with them. we&#39;re all jealous after all.

[Marxist in Nebraska]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2003, 01:21 PM

You can&#39;t blame men for thinking the vagina gets more worn out since it does seem a lot more tender than the male genitalia.

Don&#39;t they teach kids sex education anymore?
Sex ed? Not so much in the USA... huge push by the Puritanical religious right for "abstinence-only" classes. Having sex is immoral, stupid, and will get you diseased&#33; A lot of scare tactics involved, too...

EDIT: By the way... I didn&#39;t read this thread for a while... How the hell did a thread about abortion get sidetracked into Nickelodeon&#39;s TV shows from a decade ago?

[Firestorm]

the religious right clearly states: ;) ...

"Don&#39;t have sex until marriage&#33; Then you can devorce (as women are sinful creatures) and have sex with anyone you choose because you have taken GODs word...yes...be holy...u..u self rightous piece of shit...."

What a fucking comedy club&#33; See, if you have a girl friend and she wants sex...fuck her. Its a simple answer to a very complicated solution. (make sure she doesn&#39;t have an STD...and be safe naturally)

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by the [email protected] 7 2003, 10:33 PM
who doubles over with pain and anguish when kicked in the genitalia? whose genitalia is EXPOSED first of all? if you want my opinion, the male genitalia is far more tender. men need to figure out how a woman&#39;s body works and not brag about their sexual prowess when, according to you, they apparently know next to nothing.

and i don&#39;t think it&#39;s so much as the desire for a spouse to be a virgin as the abhorration of the thought that someone else might have had intimate relations with them. we&#39;re all jealous after all.
Yes, but the testacles are fairly well protected on the surface, despite being tender inside. The other part of the male genitalia certainly seems less tender.

I think you may be right about it being jealousy. But why do women not feel the same way?