"Irish-Americans"

[727Goon]

Are sooo fucking annoying. I'm just gonna put it out there, if you identify as Irish and your parents werent immigrants to the US, chances are you're an enormous tool. Most "Irish" people in the US don't even know shit about the struggles going on in Ireland and for some reason a lot of them have been some of the most racist fucks I've encountered. (This should be a chit chat thread but I'm still restricted so you know)

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

"Irish struggle" in this country isn't tied to where they came from but the struggle that went on in this country. There was a time that Irish immigrants were looked down upon in the US...until their children became one of the major groups who inflicted racism upon the eastern europeans and italians who predominately made up the next wave of immigrants.

Did you know there is still racism against Irish people in the UK? Crazy notion I know. Here it seems like whatever product you have, if you slap a four leaf clover on it and call it Irish it will become much more popular. Food, beer, whiskey, bumpers of cars, bikinis, keychains...all that shit.

[727Goon]

"Irish struggle" in this country isn't tied to where they came from but the struggle that went on in this country. There was a time that Irish immigrants were looked down upon in the US...until their children became one of the major groups who inflicted racism upon the eastern europeans and italians who predominately made up the next wave of immigrants.

Did you know there is still racism against Irish people in the UK? Crazy notion I know. Here it seems like whatever product you have, if you slap a four leaf clover on it and call it Irish it will become much more popular. Food, beer, whiskey, bumpers of cars, bikinis, keychains...all that shit.

I know dude I meant actual Irish struggle in Ireland, "Irish" people here dont know shit about that.

[RedRaptor]

I like how they try to seperate themselves from other white people. Like anyof them can even tell unless they point it out first.

[RGacky3]

Why should they care about it?

They've lived for generations on generations here.

[Chicxulub]

Are sooo fucking annoying. I'm just gonna put it out there, if you identify as Irish and your parents werent immigrants to the US, chances are you're an enormous tool. Most "Irish" people in the US don't even know shit about the struggles going on in Ireland and for some reason a lot of them have been some of the most racist fucks I've encountered. (This should be a chit chat thread but I'm still restricted so you know)


Speaking of racist fucks...



...I'd say classifying an entire group of people as "annoying" is pretty racist, wouldn't you agree, you racist piece of shit?

[RGacky3]

Yeah, this is a kind of racist thread.

[infearoffear]

Um yeah this thread kind of pissed me off, and inspired me to actually register instead of my usual lurking, but anyways not all people of irish descent are racist tools and its pretty fucking ignorant to label every single one of us as "fucking annoying enormous tools" and "racist fucks". You're just as bad as the racist assholes you claim to hate so much.

[#FF0000]

He's talking about the prevalence of "plastic paddy" syndrome among Irish Americans.

And he is spot on.

~An Irish American.

PS What he's saying actually sounds a ton like what an IRA volunteer once said when he visited the US in the 60's, about how the Irish-Americans were all about supporting the IRA but reminded him more of the Orangemen and all that.

[#FF0000]

Why should they care about it?

They've lived for generations on generations here.

No one's saying they should or they shouldn't, but in America, Irish Americans love to talk about the struggle in the "old country" or whatever. Then they go and vote republican.

That is what he is talking about.

[Chicxulub]

He's talking about the prevalence of "plastic paddy" syndrome among Irish Americans.

And he is spot on.

~An Irish American.



Glad to see you were appointed the supreme chairman of all Irish Americans, and that no Irish Americans were offended in any way by this display of racism, because you personally decided, as an Irish American, that he wasn't offensive, and thus your opinion negates any other Irish Americans who may have been offended by this bigot (that includes infearoffear, who actually IS an Irish American. DID YOU HEAR THAT INFEAROFFEAR? YOU'RE NOT OFFENDED, REVLEFT USER #FF0000 SAID SO, HE'S IRISH AMERICAN, SO HE KNOWS WHAT YOU FEEL).

but good job defending racism! No really, good job. you could be a lawyer when you grow up!


* * *

I must be dreaming: This is a leftist forum? Then why the hell is everyone so fucking stupid then?

[#FF0000]

tbh i'm more offended by irish american republican congressmen who fuck over working class people all day every day and then sing the praises of the ira than by people who call folks like that out.

edit: I think it's fair to take issue with the "IRISH AMERICANS TEND TO BE RACIST" part.

[ComradeMan]

Are sooo fucking annoying. I'm just gonna put it out there, if you identify as Irish and your parents werent immigrants to the US, chances are you're an enormous tool. Most "Irish" people in the US don't even know shit about the struggles going on in Ireland and for some reason a lot of them have been some of the most racist fucks I've encountered. (This should be a chit chat thread but I'm still restricted so you know)

I don't think you should generalise but I do notice that a lot of Americans hold to their great great great grandparent(s)'s ethnicity in an odd way.

Italian-Americans in Italy are often quite amusing- especially when they walk into an expensive restaurant in Florence and say "Ue, Goombah" to the maitre! :crying:

;)

Regarding the OP- hmmm.... on rereading it does seem like you have a problem with people of Irish origin and that you could be accused of being racist towards them.

[infearoffear]

I think it's fairer to say something closer to "stupid people tend to be racist". Anyone can be racist regardless of their ethnicity and it just seems wrong to label an entire group of people one way. Yeah I mean it annoys me when I see an Irish American who's completely ignorant of the discrimination their forefathers went through in centuries past, and who appropriates the same conservative racist culture that was responsible for said discrimination, but it seemed more like the original poster was just making bigoted statements. Maybe hes suffered discrimination at the hands of Irish Americans and is just letting off steam, which I understand, but dude just know that we're not all racist pricks, your ethnicity doesnt need to define you as a person idk thats just my 2 cents.

[Dunk]

Embracing racial prejudice as a reaction to racism and overall ignorance is stupid.

[Manic Impressive]

fucking plastic paddys :rolleyes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QHYFXDGf4Y

[MuslimMarxist]

I think making comments about Irish Americans as a whole is not productive. However I don't think it can be denied, there is a bit of a difference not only in the political leanings of many Irish Americans but also of the Irish in the Irish Republic when compared to People living in Northern Ireland. Irish Americans are not oppressed anymore because they are Irish as they were when they first began to arrive in America ( and for many years after that ). Therefore its hard for many of them to identify with an oppressed people. The people of Northen Ireland ( especially the Catholic Working Class ) have a greater sense of connection with oppressed peoples in Palestine, Iraq, US ( Blacks, Native Americans,Hispanics,Muslims), because they are themselves an Occupied and Oppressed people.

Everyone can jump down 727 goon's throat ( and I do believe he should not have made it seem like all Irish Americans are like that ) however to say he doesn't have a point at all is delusional. How many Pro Palestinian Murals are there in Irish American neighborhoods? Are there any left over Murals in Irish American neighborhoods from the 80's and and early 90's denouncing Apartheid in South Africa? There are many such murals in Republican areas of Belfast.

Many if not most Irish Americans do not have the same connection with the oppressed peoples of the world as Republicans in Northern Ireland do.

However instead of approaching them with anger it would be better to try and educate them. Also of course to make them class conscious.

[727Goon]

Speaking of racist fucks...



...I'd say classifying an entire group of people as "annoying" is pretty racist, wouldn't you agree, you racist piece of shit?

What group of people? No one differentiates Irish-Americans from other white people except for Irish-Americans. No ones been discriminated against for being Irish in the US since the 1850s. Although to be honest I didn't know most "Irish" voted republican, I thought they were mostly democrats but also racist.

[727Goon]

Yeah, this is a kind of racist thread.

If Irish-American was a race then it would be. It's an anti-subculture thread.

[gorillafuck]

No one's saying they should or they shouldn't, but in America, Irish Americans love to talk about the struggle in the "old country" or whatever. Then they go and vote republican.
PS What he's saying actually sounds a ton like what an IRA volunteer once said when he visited the US in the 60's, about how the Irish-Americans were all about supporting the IRA but reminded him more of the Orangemen and all that.None of the Irish/Irish-American people I've met have ever said anything to me about the IRA.

[Chicxulub]

If Irish-American was a race then it would be. It's an anti-subculture thread.

no, it's still racist, just like it's racist to talk shit about jews or muslims, despite them being ethno-religious identities in many cases.

fuck you, you racist piece of shit.

[727Goon]

None of the Irish/Irish-American people I've met have ever said anything to me about the IRA.

Im sayin. Except for in the departed where hes talking about the first generation dude at the bar like "Look at this IRA fuck over here" haha.

[727Goon]

no, it's still racist, just like it's racist to talk shit about jews or muslims, despite them being ethno-religious identities in many cases.

fuck you, you racist piece of shit.

Irish-Americans are just like any other white people except for some reason they think they have some mystical connection to ireland. And theres no hatred against the Irish in America like there is against jews or muslims and I'll talk shit about Judaism or Islam as a religion all day.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Are sooo fucking annoying. I'm just gonna put it out there, if you identify as Irish and your parents werent immigrants to the US, chances are you're an enormous tool. Most "Irish" people in the US don't even know shit about the struggles going on in Ireland and for some reason a lot of them have been some of the most racist fucks I've encountered. (This should be a chit chat thread but I'm still restricted so you know)

This is complicated. First condemning all Irish-Americans as "tools" has more than a hint of racism. There have been many Irish-American communists and radicals.. James Cannon, founder of the US Trotskyist movement, Elizabeth Gurley Flynn,the Berrigan brothers, and many others.Irish were hired as plantation slave drivers and rebelled against the Union draft but also fought heroically in the Civil War and were active in the Underground Railroad.


The Nation-annoying liberal rag but sometimes they have interesting stuff
the heroic deeds of the San Patricios, Irish immigrants to America who - like John Quincy Adams and Abraham Lincoln - recognized the 1848 US invasion of Mexico as imperialist aggression. The San Patricios deserted the US cause to fight at the side of the Mexican Army

http://www.thenation.com/blog/radical-inside-tom-haydens-irish-rebellion

Having said this it has to be admitted there has been a fair amount of racism among Irish-Americans.US "ethnic communities" are cultural constructs, having little to do with the culture of the home country. Irish in the US are much different than people in Ireland. The same with Italians, and other groups. Irish immigrants were originally regarded as the "white n....". the price of assimilating consisted in adopting racist norms.

I haven't read this yet but this book is supposed to be excellent

http://endofcapitalism.com/2009/02/15/book-review-of-how-the-irish-became-white/

[GallowsBird]

I wish people would stop creating racist threads like this... We are supposed to be the Revolutionary Left not rightist racist sh*twits.

[#FF0000]

None of the Irish/Irish-American people I've met have ever said anything to me about the IRA.

Hahaha. My family comes from a part of New York where Sinn Fein used to fundraise.

[ComradeMan]

Irish-Americans are just like any other white people except for some reason they think they have some mystical connection to ireland. And theres no hatred against the Irish in America like there is against jews or muslims and I'll talk shit about Judaism or Islam as a religion all day.

Okay, not that I necessarily believe or like these views... but...

What about so-called African-Americans who have never been to Africa and probably have no direct connection to Africa for at least 150 years or even more and perhaps have a lot of other "blood" mixed in yet refer to themselves as African-Americans- very often use African names and have celebrations like Kwanzaa? The same African-Americans mentioned as being pretty damn racist towards, ironically, Africans in this article...
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06044/654613.stm
:confused:

[Thug Lessons]

Irish-Americanism: The Modern Nazism?

[Viet Minh]

Usually people say the opposite, that Irish are friendly and anti-racist. Its stupid to categorise and generalise about people of any nationality though.

[RGacky3]

If Irish-American was a race then it would be. It's an anti-subculture thread.

Irish-American is a subcuture????

How the hell is that a sub-culture, its an ethnic identity.

Its like calling "Black" a subculture and linking it with hip hop or whatever.


Irish-Americans are just like any other white people except for some reason they think they have some mystical connection to ireland. And theres no hatred against the Irish in America like there is against jews or muslims and I'll talk shit about Judaism or Islam as a religion all day.

Yeah, theres not hatred (there was, for many many decades though), but I guess you'd like to start it, their connection is not mystical, its ancestry and culture.

Your just being a bigoted douchbag.

[L.A.P.]

Italian-Americans in Italy are often quite amusing- especially when they walk into an expensive restaurant in Florence and say "Ue, Goombah" to the maitre! :crying:

I'm a New York Italian-American and I relate to how hilarious this is. My mother being first-generation Indian makes fun of my dad and I for having that typical stupid Italian-American pride when we have no actual connection to Italy. I just say it's not so much being proud of having ancestor's come from Italy as much as it is being proud of the subculture that formed around New York Italian-Americans, I think a lot of Americans in general fail to recognize this. You're not proud of being Irish or Italian, you're proud of being a Boston Irish-American or New York Italian-American. Big difference.

[Chicxulub]

I'm wondering why this piece of crap is allowed to even grace this "leftist forum"...or am I wrong about the nature of this forum?

[Mindtoaster]

Usually people say the opposite, that Irish are friendly and anti-racist. Its stupid to categorise and generalise about people of any nationality though.

Yeah... I've never really been to the north-east where the cops are notorious for identifying as "irish"

But most the the Irish Americans (myself included) in the South that I know are uncharacteristically progressive for whites in the region.

[Thug Lessons]

I'm wondering why this piece of crap is allowed to even grace this "leftist forum"...or am I wrong about the nature of this forum?
It's not actually racist. "Irish-American" is just how us Yanks euphemistically refer to alcoholics.

[Viet Minh]

Yeah... I've never really been to the north-east where the cops are notorious for identifying as "irish"

But most the the Irish Americans (myself included) in the South that I know are uncharacteristically progressive for whites in the region.

In California the Irish probably have a bad rep because of the aryan brotherhood, although the actual Irish links there are non-existent. I've never been to the US, but my guess is the racists there use any European heritage they can find as 'justification' for their shit.

To the pitchforked villagers calling OP a racist, yes it came across that way, but I think he was talking about those who make a big deal about Irish-Americanness, as opposed to people who just happen to be Irish American. In Ireland there's a stereotype of the Irish American tourist, and for that matter plenty of stereotypes about the irish themselves too (one example is the racist slur of the Irish being drunks, which is now more than anything a running joke, even arguably a matter of national pride come st paddies day). OP's position is not by default racist, for instance I would think its fair to say that the majority of racists are white, in my experience, and there are plenty of statistics that will back that assertion. So in other words 'whites are more racist', which is in itself a racist statement, and also pretty pointless.

[Revolution starts with U]

(727Goon)'s Are sooo fucking annoying. I'm just gonna put it out there, if you identify as 727Goon and your parents birthed you, chances are you're an enormous tool. Most "727Goon" people in the US don't even know shit about the struggles going on anywhere and for some reason a lot of them have been some of the most racist fucks I've encountered. (This should be a chit chat thread but I'm still restricted so you know)

Fixed that for you :thumbup:

Posts like this make me think you will be saying "Im still restricted" for a looooooong time.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

It's not actually racist. "Irish-American" is just how us Yaks euphemistically refer to alcoholics.
"Yaks" as in Yakuza?



"Yakuza," the Japanese mafia.
The police arrested a couple Yaks today.
See more words with the same meaning: criminal, hooligan, gangster, gangsta

[L.A.P.]

In California the Irish probably have a bad rep because of the aryan brotherhood,

This is where I think the OP could have had a point. I too laugh at the fact that the majority of Neo-Nazi groups in the United States are made up of Irish-Americans and merge the shamrock with the swastika.:laugh: They don't realize that Irish people were never a part of the Great Fuher's idea of a master race due to them not being derived from the Germanic barbarian tribes unlike many other European people such as the English and the French. Had Hitler gotten the chance to, the Irish most likely would have been massively oppressed by Nazi Germany on ethnic grounds.

[Thug Lessons]

No, Yaks as in the particularly heavy, hearty variety of Himalayan cattle that constitute most of the American population.

[727Goon]

In California the Irish probably have a bad rep because of the aryan brotherhood, although the actual Irish links there are non-existent. I've never been to the US, but my guess is the racists there use any European heritage they can find as 'justification' for their shit.

To the pitchforked villagers calling OP a racist, yes it came across that way, but I think he was talking about those who make a big deal about Irish-Americanness, as opposed to people who just happen to be Irish American. In Ireland there's a stereotype of the Irish American tourist, and for that matter plenty of stereotypes about the irish themselves too (one example is the racist slur of the Irish being drunks, which is now more than anything a running joke, even arguably a matter of national pride come st paddies day). OP's position is not by default racist, for instance I would think its fair to say that the majority of racists are white, in my experience, and there are plenty of statistics that will back that assertion. So in other words 'whites are more racist', which is in itself a racist statement, and also pretty pointless.

Exactly, something like 50 percent of white people have Irish blood anyways but only the subculture makes a big deal about it, and they tend to be racist. Could be a coincidence.

[727Goon]

Okay, not that I necessarily believe or like these views... but...

What about so-called African-Americans who have never been to Africa and probably have no direct connection to Africa for at least 150 years or even more and perhaps have a lot of other "blood" mixed in yet refer to themselves as African-Americans- very often use African names and have celebrations like Kwanzaa? The same African-Americans mentioned as being pretty damn racist towards, ironically, Africans in this article...
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06044/654613.stm
:confused:
keep supporting israel and calling me a racist at the same time bruh

[Revolution starts with U]

I don't support Isreal. And you're a bigot... bro. ;)

[Pretty Flaco]

My dad was Irish (catholic and from north) and immigrated to Wales.

im directly related to real live Irish people and when Americans say they're irish it always makes me laugh :lol:
shit youre an american! my family even considers me american and i wasnt born over here.

[Metacomet]

Quality thread.

[727Goon]

I don't support Isreal. And you're a bigot... bro. ;)

read that post again

[Revolution starts with U]

You can run from it all you want but you said:
All of one ethnic group are x.

That's bigotry, bro. No bones about it. You may be a relatively progressive bigot. But a bigot nonetheless.

[727Goon]

You can run from it all you want but you said:
All of one ethnic group are x.

That's bigotry, bro. No bones about it. You may be a relatively progressive bigot. But a bigot nonetheless.

I was talking about Irish Americans who are all proud of being Irish and think it somehow differentiates them from other white people. As I said before something like 50 percent of white people in America have Irish blood and the vast majority of them dont give a fuck.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-whos-116th-irish-proud-of-his-irish-heritage,103/

[Tim Finnegan]

Are sooo fucking annoying. I'm just gonna put it out there, if you identify as Irish and your parents werent immigrants to the US, chances are you're an enormous tool. Most "Irish" people in the US don't even know shit about the struggles going on in Ireland and for some reason a lot of them have been some of the most racist fucks I've encountered. (This should be a chit chat thread but I'm still restricted so you know)
Do you actually know what the word "Irish" means? You should probably look it up before you go dictating its usage.


As I said before something like 50 percent of white people in America have Irish blood and the vast majority of them dont give a fuck.
Most of that is Anglo-Irish or Scots-Irish, which is to say, Protestants who went there from England, Wales and Scotland for a few hundred years before moving on to America. Different ethnic groups, they just come from the same island.

Incidentally, why is it Irish-Americans which specifically garner your ire? Why not Italian-Americans, or Chinese-Americans, or Scottish-Americans? I know that green beer and shamrocks are rather blasé, but if the very idea of Irishness-in-America upsets you, then surely an organised festival of Scottishness-in-America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_games#United_States) would send you in to a bloodthirsty rage! Yet you remain silent. Why is that?


I'm a New York Italian-American and I relate to how hilarious this is. My mother being first-generation Indian makes fun of my dad and I for having that typical stupid Italian-American pride when we have no actual connection to Italy. I just say it's not so much being proud of having ancestor's come from Italy as much as it is being proud of the subculture that formed around New York Italian-Americans, I think a lot of Americans in general fail to recognize this. You're not proud of being Irish or Italian, you're proud of being a Boston Irish-American or New York Italian-American. Big difference.
That's a good point. I think this is why nobody really minds Scottish-Canadians, despite their being more enthusiastic about their identity than the Irish-Americans could ever hope to be: for them, the Scottishness and Canadianness are integrated, rather than contradictory. They have their own dialect of Gaelic, their own tartans, their own musical traditions, and, while they certainly have an affection for Scotland, what they seem to think of as "New Scotland" is where they ground themselves.

[Che a chara]

I was talking about Irish Americans who are all proud of being Irish and think it somehow differentiates them from other white people. As I said before something like 50 percent of white people in America have Irish blood and the vast majority of them dont give a fuck.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-whos-116th-irish-proud-of-his-irish-heritage,103/

For what it's worth, I don't think you're a complete bigot, a bit ignorant maybe. Though it does seem you are trying to backtrack or at least justify your ignorant opinion and I think this is proved by you scraping the bottom of the barrell by posting an article from 'the onion', which anyone should know is a parody and satirical site. Everything posted on there is a piss take. :lol:

[727Goon]

I think this is proved by you scraping the bottom of the barrell by posting an article from 'the onion', which anyone should know is a parody and satirical site. Everything posted on there is a piss take. :lol:

you sure?

[Che a chara]

you sure?

Yeah dude, go through the various articles on it.

*edit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Onion

[Tim Finnegan]

Or, to save time, look at the title, and note that it reads "The Onion". And has a picture of an onion next to it. As if those weren't pretty blatant clues.

[Che a chara]

Usually people say the opposite, that Irish are friendly and anti-racist.

Aww, that's lovely, but i prefer Engel's description of us:

"The Irishman is a carefree, cheerful, potato-eating child of nature." :engles: :lol:

[Tim Finnegan]

Aww, that's lovely, but i prefer Engel's description of us:

"The Irishman is a carefree, cheerful, potato-eating child of nature." :engles: :lol:
Immediately preceded by "Give me two hundred thousand Irishmen and I will overthrow the entire British monarchy." Apparently, Engels was a big believer in the revolutionary potential of arming hippies? http://www.v-strom.co.uk/phpBB3/images/smilies/smiley_shrug.gif

[727Goon]

Yeah dude, go through the various articles on it.

*edit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Onion

so you're telling me Obama didn't really make it through another day of resisting the urge to launch all US nuclear weapons at once? I find that hard to believe.

[Che a chara]

Immediately preceded by "Give me two hundred thousand Irishmen and I will overthrow the entire British monarchy." Apparently, Engels was a big believer in the revolutionary potential of arming hippies? http://www.v-strom.co.uk/phpBB3/images/smilies/smiley_shrug.gif

Voila ......

http://www.find-me-a-gift.co.uk/images/product_images/spudgun300x300(2).jpg

:lol:

[Che a chara]

so you're telling me Obama didn't really make it through another day of resisting the urge to launch all US nuclear weapons at once? I find that hard to believe.

Maybe his itchy trigger finger was rather busy today :ohmy:

http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/4c20dfe07f8b9a461de30000/obama-middle-finger.jpg

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/11/03/obamafinger.jpg

http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx328/drjohn_bucket/obamamiddlefinger.jpg

[ComradeMan]

keep supporting israel and calling me a racist at the same time bruh


So you can't answer the damn question?

Right- gloves off....

Listen shit for brains, until people like you don't fuck off permanently racism will always exist. All you can do is throw out generalisations and sweeping statements labelling people because of their presumed racism because of their so-called ethnic identity. What about if someone here had been a victim of black criminality and started making sweeping generalisations about African-Americans all being gang members and violent? WTF!!!

Err... that's what racists do.... Einstein. :thumbdown:

If some guy called Paddy McFinningan or Micky O'Toole is/has been racist towards you then that guy is a racist fuckwit but for you to turn around and say it's because he's Irish or an Irish-American makes YOU no damn better.

Either you have a lot of anger and are venting it in the WRONG WAY or you really are a complete racist yourself, no better than the people you are criticising and have your brains in your ass.

[lines]

Its stuff like this that makes it hard to be white and part of the left. Saying racist things against white people or people of white ethnicities is considered acceptable but its not acceptable to say the same of other races, I am against racism and being against racism means being against all types of racism which includes racism against white people. Meanwhile the people who say racist stuff against whites will complain about racist stuff against non-whites and then they go crying to white people about wanting whites to be outraged by the racism, if you want white people to be outraged by racism then you shouldn't say racist things about whites. I hope we can end racism in society but doing so is impossible if it is done in a double standard way.

[GallowsBird]

Paddy McFinningan or Micky O'Toole

Hey, I think I am related to those guys! :lol:

[El Chuncho]

Goon,

http://g.mycommentspace.com/msgfx/30/3003.jpg

:tt2:

[Thug Lessons]

Its stuff like this that makes it hard to be white and part of the left. Saying racist things against white people or people of white ethnicities is considered acceptable but its not acceptable to say the same of other races, I am against racism and being against racism means being against all types of racism which includes racism against white people. Meanwhile the people who say racist stuff against whites will complain about racist stuff against non-whites and then they go crying to white people about wanting whites to be outraged by the racism, if you want white people to be outraged by racism then you shouldn't say racist things about whites. I hope we can end racism in society but doing so is impossible if it is done in a double standard way.
It's called "reverse racism". There's a cool website where you can read all about it, http://www.glennbeck.com. Check it out. You might also find some interesting articles on this topic in Heartburn Magazine.

[RGacky3]

727Goon, why would it piss you off that some Irish Americans have some affinity for Ireland? I mean it does'nt effect you at all, do I care if some black people call themself a Zulu nation, even though they have nothing to do with the origional Zulu? Nope not at all, why does this bother you at all???

(because your a bigot, really).

[Viet Minh]

For future reference..

bad people:
Americans
British
Israelis
Japanese

good people:
Chinese
Russians
Palestinians
Irish

neutral people:
Swiss

sometimes okay people but will talk behind your back when they're drunk:
Mexicans

[The Man]

I'm an Irish American. My Great-Grandfather was kicked out of Ireland for being part of the Irish Republican Army, and using 'Violent actions'. So my Great-Grandfather changed his name, and moved here.

So Goon, stop calling me an enormous tool, because most of my family has lived through all of the crap in Ireland.

[Tim Finnegan]

It's called "reverse racism". There's a cool website where you can read all about it, http://www.glennbeck.com (http://www.glennbeck.com/). Check it out. You might also find some interesting articles on this topic in Heartburn Magazine.
Anti-Irish racism is just regular racism, Thuggles m'dear, even if it's not a WASPs doing it. Your strawman comes tumbling down in the slightest breeze.

[#FF0000]

oh nooooooo racism against white people

[The Man]

oh nooooooo racism against white people

So you think that it is acceptable?

Fuck racism, no matter how much melanin you have in your skin.

[#FF0000]

So you think that it is acceptable?

Fuck racism, no matter how much melanin you have in your skin.

I'm saying it doesn't exist beyond literally one or two people who say "man fuck all white people ever" and even that's not even something to even care about.

[Tim Finnegan]

I'm saying it doesn't exist beyond literally one or two people who say "man fuck all white people ever" and even that's not even something to even care about.
Do you mean racism against white people in general, or against specific white ethnicities? Because this pretty much seems to be the latter.

[#FF0000]

either or, racism against white people is a non issue because it doesn't exist in any meaningful capacity

[Tim Finnegan]

either or, racism against white people is a non issue because it doesn't exist in any meaningful capacity
Again, there's a difference between "white people" in general, and specific "white" ethnicities. If you can't quite grasp that, then you're not really in a position to opine on it.

[#FF0000]

No kidding, and neither white people in general nor any specific white ethnicity suffer from racism beyond some dumb isolated name calling.

racism is not a problem for white people. At least not in America. I don't know if the Polish have it rough in France or whatever.

[9]

At least not in America.

I think that's sort of the key piece, tho... you can't really apply the situation in the US to the rest of the world.

[#FF0000]

I think that's sort of the key piece, tho...

what do you mean?

[Revolution starts with U]

Just because whites are in power is no reason to brush off racism against whites. It's still racism and you should be vehemently against it.

[#FF0000]

Just because whites are in power is no reason to brush off racism against whites. It's still racism and you should be vehemently against it.

but it doesn't exist beyond a few individuals. there's no one out there challenging the rights of white people.

[9]

what do you mean?

I mean the situation in the US isn't the situation in the whole world, and obviously not everyone who posts on this forum is from the US. There is definitely anti-Irish racism, even if there isn't in the US. So its probably something to keep in mind considering that this is an international forum.

[Tim Finnegan]

No kidding, and neither white people in general nor any specific white ethnicity suffer from racism beyond some dumb isolated name calling.

racism is not a problem for white people. At least not in America. I don't know if the Polish have it rough in France or whatever.
Nice to know that there is no anti-Semitism in the US. And here I thought that was a problem! :rolleyes:

[727Goon]

Nice to know that there is no anti-Semitism in the US. And here I thought that was a problem! :rolleyes:

I could be wrong but I doubt its as bad as other forms of racism anymore. I'm not Jewish though so I can't say.

[#FF0000]

Nice to know that there is no anti-Semitism in the US. And here I thought that was a problem! :rolleyes:

Oh, well if you say jews fall under the category of "white", then I suppose you're right. I don't know if most people do, but who cares.


I mean the situation in the US isn't the situation in the whole world, and obviously not everyone who posts on this forum is from the US. There is definitely anti-Irish racism, even if there isn't in the US. So its probably something to keep in mind considering that this is an international forum.

This is true but at the same time this is a topic dealing specifically with Irish Americans. It's true that there's racism against the Irish in Europe, but people in Europe should know that the situation in Europe isn't the same as in America, where the idea of racism against irish-americans is kind of silly in this day and age.

especially when the statement they're up in arms about is "irish americans who have never been to ireland and don't know anything about ireland but still say up the 'ra and all that are annoying".


I could be wrong but I doubt its as bad as other forms of racism anymore. I'm not Jewish though so I can't say.

I think it was just a couple years where someone went on a shooting spree in a jewish community center or something. I'd say anti-semitism is still sort of a problem.

[9]

There is no systemic anti-semitism in the US anymore. Its not really the point, tho.

[9]

especially when the statement they're up in arms about is "irish americans who have never been to ireland and don't know anything about ireland but still say up the 'ra and all that are annoying".

I agree with you that the OP's point wasn't racist. It just seemed like the discussion had sort of moved on to the existence or non-existence of 'racism against (specific subsets of) white people' more generally.

[#FF0000]

I agree with you that the OP's point wasn't racist. It just seemed like the discussion had sort of moved on to the existence or non-existence of 'racism against white people' more generally.

Alright. I think that's mostly thanks to poor communication on my part.

[Tim Finnegan]

I could be wrong but I doubt its as bad as other forms of racism anymore. I'm not Jewish though so I can't say.
"Not as bad" isn't the same thing as "does not exist", which was really my point.


Oh, well if you say jews fall under the category of "white", then I suppose you're right. I don't know if most people do, but who cares.
Well, that's perhaps part of the problem: if we're defining "whites" as "white whites", which is to say those whites who do not suffer any sort of racism, then you're going to get very particular results.


This is true but at the same time this is a topic dealing specifically with Irish Americans. It's true that there's racism against the Irish in Europe, but people in Europe should know that the situation in Europe isn't the same as in America, where the idea of racism against irish-americans is kind of silly in this day and age.

especially when the statement they're up in arms about is "irish americans who have never been to ireland and don't know anything about ireland but still say up the 'ra and all that are annoying".But in what sense is that fundamentally different than some right-winger complaining about umpteenth-generation Mexican-Americans celebrating Cinco de Mayo, or African-Americans putting on a dashiki? I know that "Irishness" has been pretty heavily colonised by some particularly crass commercialism, which does make it a certain level of legitimate criticism, but that didn't really seem to feature in the OP's complaint so much as a vague swipe at those whom he perceives to have insufficiently recent Eire-born ancestry to have access to a particular label or its associated culture. He's asking people to sacrifice their culture- and for a lot of Irish-Americans, a good part of this stuff is inherited, not bought from a store or picked up from the media- because he doesn't like it. That seems pretty self-evidently iffy to me.

I guess I just wonder why somebody complaining about self-identifying Irish Catholics in Glasgow is a sectarian bigot, and somebody doing it in New York is the voice of reason, just because the latter is freed from the burden of a recent history of anti-Irish racism. I'm not exactly knee-deep in anti-Latino sentiment round here, but I wouldn't go mouthing off about "those bloody Mexicans", or what have you. I mean, prejudices are still prejudices , surely? http://www.v-strom.co.uk/phpBB3/images/smilies/smiley_shrug.gif

[#FF0000]

But in what sense is that fundamentally different than some right-winger complaining about umpteenth-generation Mexican-Americans celebrating Cinco de Mayo, or African-Americans putting on a dashiki?

I think there's a difference between celebrating cinco de mayo and pretending you're the most Irish, or in this case, Mexican person on the fucking globe when you haven't even been to whatever country the person's championing.


He's asking people to sacrifice their culture- and for a lot of Irish-Americans, a good part of this stuff is inherited, not bought from a store or picked up from the media- because he doesn't like it. That seems pretty self-evidently iffy to me.

I don't think he's asking that at all. He's talking about people who's only link to this culture is a Wolfe Tones album they don't listen to corned beef and cabbage.


I guess I just wonder why somebody complaining about self-identifying Irish Catholics in Glasgow is a sectarian bigot, and somebody doing it in New York is the voice of reason, just because the latter is freed from the burden of a recent history of anti-Irish racism. I'm not exactly knee-deep in anti-Latino sentiment round here, but I wouldn't go mouthing off about "those bloody Mexicans", or what have you. I mean, prejudices are still prejudices , surely? http://www.v-strom.co.uk/phpBB3/images/smilies/smiley_shrug.gif

You're talking about a completely different thing, though. We're talking about people who are like YEAH MAN I'M SO IRISH UP THE RA CHUCKEE 'R LA meanwhile they are sooooooooo far removed from Ireland and have literally no connection to it other than their great, great, great, great gandfather who immigrated here.

[Tim Finnegan]

I think there's a difference between celebrating cinco de mayo and pretending you're the most Irish, or in this case, Mexican person on the fucking globe when you haven't even been to whatever country the person's championing.
Difference between real people and strawmen, too.


I don't think he's asking that at all. He's talking about people who's only link to this culture is a Wolfe Tones album they don't listen to corned beef and cabbage.
Ah, Paddy O'Straw again, is it?


You're talking about a completely different thing, though. We're talking about people who are like YEAH MAN I'M SO IRISH UP THE RA CHUCKEE 'R LA meanwhile they are sooooooooo far removed from Ireland and have literally no connection to it other than their great, great, great, great gandfather who immigrated here.
Jesus, Paddy, go home, you're drunk. Let the nice people debate in peace.

See, this is basically the problem: this straw Irish-American has been constructed, people have proceeded to kick him about while declaring him the representation of all Irish-Americans, and then when called up on it they'll go "well, no, not all of them". If it's not racist, then it's sure as hell stupid.

[#FF0000]

Difference between real people and strawmen, too.


Ah, Paddy O'Straw again, is it?


Jesus, Paddy, go home, you're drunk. Let the nice people debate in peace.

See, this is basically the problem: this straw Irish-American has been constructed, people have proceeded to kick him about while declaring him the representation of all Irish-Americans, and then when called up on it they'll go "well, no, not all of them". If it's not racist, then it's sure as hell stupid.

nononono that's the point. that's the source of this entire misunderstanding. Paddy O'Straw is exactly the guy we're talking about here, and we definitely acknowledge that Paddy O'Straw doesn't represent the entire Irish-American community.

[Tim Finnegan]

nononono that's the point. that's the source of this entire misunderstanding. Paddy O'Straw is exactly the guy we're talking about here, and we definitely acknowledge that Paddy O'Straw doesn't represent the entire Irish-American community.
Then I'm missing summat, because the opening salvo against poor Mr. O'Straw was:

I'm just gonna put it out there, if you identify as Irish and your parents werent immigrants to the US, chances are you're an enormous tool.
Which isn't exactly the even-handed perspective you're claiming. I guess you and 727Goon are on slightly different wavelengths on this one? :confused:

[#FF0000]

Which isn't exactly the even-handed perspective you're claiming. I guess you and 727Goon are on slightly different wavelengths on this one? :confused:

I think it's poorly worded. In America, there are Irish-Americans who are very far removed from anything even close to Irish, but they make a big deal about being Irish.

I think that is who he is talking about.

I won't argue that it isn't badly worded though.

[Revolution starts with U]

I think you guys (#F and 727) are just engaging in a "no true scotsman" fallacy, and like Tim said, if it's not racist, it sure is fucking stupid.
So what they identify with their far removed heritage? Do you have a problem with that? If you do then you have to denounce black americans that celebrate Kwanza, and Latinos that celebrate Cinco de Mayo, etc.

Do you think you're more of an Irishman because you're a leftist or more knowledgeable about Irish struggle? That's racism, plain and simple: thinking all of one race has to fit into a certain category.

[#FF0000]

Do you have a problem with that? If you do then you have to denounce black americans that celebrate Kwanza, and Latinos that celebrate Cinco de Mayo, etc.

No. I don't have a problem with Irish people celebrating St. Patricks, either. People can celebrate cultural holidays no matter how far removed they are from the culture.

But there's a difference between insisting that you are the most irish person on the fucking planet when you have literally nothing to do with Ireland.


Do you think you're more of an Irishman because you're a leftist or more knowledgeable about Irish struggle? That's racism, plain and simple: thinking all of one race has to fit into a certain category.

no. holy shit that is exactly the kind of thing we're talking about.

[Tim Finnegan]

No. I don't have a problem with Irish people celebrating St. Patricks, either. People can celebrate cultural holidays no matter how far removed they are from the culture.

But there's a difference between insisting that you are the most irish person on the fucking planet when you have literally nothing to do with Ireland.
Yeah, but who actually does this? I get that there are some Irish-Americans who can get a bit too into their borrowed understanding of Irishness, and that this can be pretty annoying, but Paddy O'Straw here seems to be a composite of various annoying traits attributed to over-enthusiastic Irish-Americans, rather than any actual individual who exists. Perhaps I'm not getting the full picture, but as far as I know the only people who are all about being Irish 24/7 are a few old guys in Boston and New York and that sort of place, who grew up in a largely Irish community, are often only second or third generation, and who really do take as much of their identity from inherited traditions as from any received stereotypes.

[#FF0000]

Yeah, but who actually does this? I get that there are some Irish-Americans who can get a bit too into their borrowed understanding of Irishness, and that this can be pretty annoying, but Paddy O'Straw here seems to be a composite of various annoying traits attributed to over-enthusiastic Irish-Americans, rather than any actual individual who exists. Perhaps I'm not getting the full picture, but as far as I know the only people who are all about being Irish 24/7 are a few old guys in Boston and New York and that sort of place, who grew up in a largely Irish community, are often only second or third generation, and who really do take as much of their identity from inherited traditions as from any received stereotypes.

No. Paddy O'Straw is sort of common actually (and accurately describes about 75% of my family). You're right about the New York and Boston thing but you're being generous about the second/third generation thing.

[727Goon]

I think you guys (#F and 727) are just engaging in a "no true scotsman" fallacy, and like Tim said, if it's not racist, it sure is fucking stupid.
So what they identify with their far removed heritage? Do you have a problem with that? If you do then you have to denounce black americans that celebrate Kwanza, and Latinos that celebrate Cinco de Mayo, etc.

Do you think you're more of an Irishman because you're a leftist or more knowledgeable about Irish struggle? That's racism, plain and simple: thinking all of one race has to fit into a certain category.

Actually yeah niggas who celebrate kwanza or wear dashikis are probably lame as fuck. I'll give you that one.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Are sooo fucking annoying. I'm just gonna put it out there, if you identify as Irish and your parents werent immigrants to the US, chances are you're an enormous tool. Most "Irish" people in the US don't even know shit about the struggles going on in Ireland and for some reason a lot of them have been some of the most racist fucks I've encountered. (This should be a chit chat thread but I'm still restricted so you know)

You know 727 I have a question that came to me today.

How do you feel about me making the statement that I know more of the history of the black struggle in this country, whether black nationalism or sncc or the black panthers or the leaders in malcolm x or mlk jr or carmichael.....than the vast majority of black people my age do, despite being a good bit of irish descent (the rest of me is made up of white people smart enough to get on a boat before the europeans really started killing each other off).

How do you feel that the struggle black people have gone through isn't really studied today and the vast majority of what's left seems to solidly support Obama as an example?

[Revolution starts with U]

Actually yeah niggas who celebrate kwanza or wear dashikis are probably lame as fuck. I'll give you that one.

Let me guess, you said "niggas" not "niggers" so it's okay, right? You're a fucking racist dude. :thumbdown:

GTFO

[#FF0000]

727 is black btw

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Please RSTWU, let's not overreact here. Nigga is a perfectly acceptable title in todays society by just about everyone given the right context, especially the "generation Y" types who are, for the most part, overwhelmingly accepting of different cultures and lifestyles. To say that the word's use makes someone a racist (or, let's be honest, saying someone using the term faggot automatically makes them a homophobe) distracts from the real problems the black community faces.

I'm not saying that the word can't be used for racist ends (obviously it can), just like someone using the term faggot to refer explicitly to gay folks, is disgusting. But let's get past all the PC bullshit debates, and focus on actual racism/homophobia/sexism/islamophobia/discrimination in general that exists shall we? please?

Fuck am I the only one who is pissed that the US media, not to mention most LBGT groups, seem to have spent more time talking about Kobe Bryant's use of the term faggot in a basketball game than Uganda very nearly passing a law which would have made homosexuality a capital offense? I mean, is it just me? Please be honest.

[727Goon]

Let me guess, you said "niggas" not "niggers" so it's okay, right? You're a fucking racist dude. :thumbdown:

GTFO

The only thing thats fucking racist is your white ass trying to tell me what I can and cant say. Any other words us darkies shouldnt be saying so as not to offend your sensibilities?

[727Goon]

You know 727 I have a question that came to me today.

How do you feel about me making the statement that I know more of the history of the black struggle in this country, whether black nationalism or sncc or the black panthers or the leaders in malcolm x or mlk jr or carmichael.....than the vast majority of black people my age do, despite being a good bit of irish descent (the rest of me is made up of white people smart enough to get on a boat before the europeans really started killing each other off).

How do you feel that the struggle black people have gone through isn't really studied today and the vast majority of what's left seems to solidly support Obama as an example?

Well I obviously think that focus on black struggle isn't prevalent at all in the modern left and the modern left has little or no relevance to our day to day struggles. And that statements condescending as fuck and probably a little racist, black struggle isnt just something you read about in books, its the day to day struggle as a black person in America. You may know more history than most black people your age, but every black person ever knows more about black struggle than you do.

[RGacky3]

The only thing thats fucking racist is your white ass trying to tell me what I can and cant say. Any other words us darkies shouldnt be saying so as not to offend your sensibilities?

Rreally? Is that the only thing thats racist??

Because I thought this was also pretty damn racsit



Are sooo fucking annoying. I'm just gonna put it out there, if you identify as Irish and your parents werent immigrants to the US, chances are you're an enormous tool. Most "Irish" people in the US don't even know shit about the struggles going on in Ireland and for some reason a lot of them have been some of the most racist fucks I've encountered. (This should be a chit chat thread but I'm still restricted so you know)



Well I obviously think that focus on black struggle isn't prevalent at all in the modern left and the modern left has little or no relevance to our day to day struggles. And that statements condescending as fuck and probably a little racist, black struggle isnt just something you read about in books, its the day to day struggle as a black person in America. You may know more history than most black people your age, but every black person ever knows more about black struggle than you do.

Excactly, so if I were you I'd shut up about your opinion of the Irish.

[727Goon]

Irish-Americans arent Irish.

[RGacky3]

Says you, but the point stays the same.

[cormacobear]

It's more ironic than racist claiming Irish-Americans (cause those are the only Irish Diaspora) are ignorant of irish politics both past and present on a board with a bunch of political hacks, some of the most knowledgeable on irish affairs from around the world, thus faulting the generalization. The point bears validity mostly in it's indictment of the us education system and the undercurrent of nationalism in all modern education systems which both limit knowledge of and steer the lens young people view other countries through. Canadians still learn about the Fenians but if you want to know about the normans and cromwell and all of that you'll have to dig there were 25 students in my Canadian classes and 15 nationalities represented, it would be hard to teach all their histories.

[#FF0000]

Says you, but the point stays the same.

No. Says the fact that they are not Irish. Unless they've got Irish citizenship, they are not Irish. They are American.

[RGacky3]

Its a national identity, many people have American citizenships, or british or whatever that do not consider themselves that.

[#FF0000]

Its a national identity, many people have American citizenships, or british or whatever that do not consider themselves that.

And that's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that the people 727 are referring to are not Irish, know nothing of Ireland, yet embrace a bunch of outdated and stereotypical irish customs or whatever and then get loud about how Irish they are.

It is not racist to say that these people are obnoxious or tools. no more than it's racist to say white people who appropriate stereotypical asian customs are fucking obnoxious.

[#FF0000]

Fun fact: I am talking to a friend of mine up in Boston. I asked him if he knew this Paddy O'Straw and indeed he does. Not only that, he tells me that South Boston is pretty notorious for it's plastic paddy scene.

It's also notorious for being full of horrible racists.

So, 727 had something in his OP. A lot of plastic paddys (not Irish-Americans) are racist.

[cormacobear]

north americans are gradually relinquishing their cultural heritage, but those interested in history usually start with their family history. so you can promote the origin-citizenship status or discourage knowledge of global history and affairs. They are alas interwoven.

A sense of global citizenship, vs. nationalistic aggressiveness

[Revolution starts with U]

No. Says the fact that they are not Irish. Unless they've got Irish citizenship, they are not Irish. They are American.

And that's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that the people 727 are referring to are not Irish, know nothing of Ireland, yet embrace a bunch of outdated and stereotypical irish customs or whatever and then get loud about how Irish they are.

It is not racist to say that these people are obnoxious or tools. no more than it's racist to say white people who appropriate stereotypical asian customs are fucking obnoxious.

Idk dude. I don't think there is anything wrong with people adopting other cultures. Maybe you do. I think it has no bearing on whether or not they are racist, per se, or have any other douchebag symptoms.

[Revolution starts with U]

The only thing thats fucking racist is your white ass trying to tell me what I can and cant say. Any other words us darkies shouldnt be saying so as not to offend your sensibilities?

No, it's the content. You're saying they're not real africans or irishmen.

First, it's racist to even care about that. WTF is an "african" human?

Second. It's racist to use a well established derogatory tone, in a racist context, and think it's ok because (insert arbitrary reason here).

... :thumbdown:

WTF is a "white person?"

[#FF0000]

Idk dude. I don't think there is anything wrong with people adopting other cultures. Maybe you do. I think it has no bearing on whether or not they are racist, per se, or have any other douchebag symptoms.

Well I mean if someone's in Ireland or whatever and they adopt that culture, that's understandable. Otherwise the only problem with "adopting a culture" that exists an ocean away is that it might be potentially pretty offensive because more often than not people are adopting stereotypes.

And on top of that I think it's kinda pathetic because it's like someone's trying to build an artificial identity for themselves.

But yeah there's nothing wrong with being really into a particular culture. There's just a difference between that and assert that you are of that culture.

[cormacobear]

the racism issue has only to do with making generalizations, and the racism rampant in any poor and poorly educated community. Being angry they Identify with their irish culture yet are ignorant of it's history and current struggles, doesn't change things.

What can be done to make 2nd, and third, and fourth generation immigrants more aware of their status as blessed refugees who understand and support compatriots abroad? The US education system has failed and a willingness to let religious schools and home schooled pervert facts, has led us to seeking community based solutions to both the education and international knowledge spheres.

[RGacky3]

If you have Irish parents, grow up around Irish culture .... then why are you not Irish?

[GallowsBird]

The only thing thats fucking racist is your white ass

I think you are forgetting your own rant about Irish-Americans.:rolleyes:

If it isn't racist (and it is) it is still intolerence and generalising about a group. I'm not even sure why threads like this are allowed to continue on this site yet many less offensive threads have been closed and members banned a lot recently.

[cormacobear]

what's your passport say? Is that country so deplorable it hasn't earned some loyalty?
But hey we're leftists always human first.

[9]

So for the people who think the OP is racist, would you also consider the term "plastic paddy" to be racist as well...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_Paddy

...?

I'm not trying to make any kind of point in asking, I'm just curious.

[#FF0000]

If you have Irish parents, grow up around Irish culture .... then why are you not Irish?

the people 727 is talking about might have great gandparents who they never met who immigrated from Ireland. We are talking about people with no connection to Ireland other than being Irish-American.

This is not hard to understand.


I think you are forgetting your own rant about Irish-Americans.:rolleyes:

If it isn't racist (and it is) it is still intolerence and generalising about a group. I'm not even sure why threads like this are allowed to continue on this site yet many less offensive threads have been closed and members banned a lot recently.

OP is not talking about all Irish Americans.

[cormacobear]

Despite all the fakers 'kiss me i'm irish' still works on st. paddy's. But Enough N. americans supported irish republicans to have been a problem for the opposition. Those who want to know will learn those dumb thugs who ignore the poets and think it's about beer will always exist. Whatcha gonna do about it? Every day a new generation of leftists and a new gen of fascists are born. education is the issue at heart.
Should different nationalities run their own schools so 'plastic paddy's' are real paddy's? I can see a lot of downsides to that.

[#FF0000]

Despite all the fakers 'kiss me i'm irish' still works on st. paddy's. But Enough N. americans supported irish republicans to have been a problem for the opposition. Those who want to know will learn those dumb thugs who ignore the poets and think it's about beer will always exist. Whatcha gonna do about it? Every day a new generation of leftists and a new gen of fascists are born. education is the issue at heart.
Should different nationalities run their own schools so 'plastic paddy's' are real paddy's? I can see a lot of downsides to that.

It really has nothing to do with this. You can know all the Irish history you want but if you've never been to Ireland and have no living relatives who have been to Ireland and all you know about Irish music is flogging molly and dropkick murphys, then you're not irish and shouldn't be posturing.

This is not racist.

[RGacky3]

The same with Mexicans?

[#FF0000]

The same with Mexicans?

I guess? I've never heard of anything like this among Mexican-Americans though.

[cormacobear]

I know hundreds of irish who know less about what's going on in Ireland and why than most of the Canadian Irish I know. Bravado is always to be viewed with disdain.
Is your complaint their ignorance, where they were born, which government issues their documents? Really what's your problem?

[#FF0000]

Is your complaint their ignorance, where they were born, which government issues their documents? Really what's your problem?

I laid it all out pretty clearly on the 6th page, I think.

I'm just trying to explain to these people why complaining about posturing plastic paddys isn't racist, though.

[cormacobear]

it's not but making generalizations always smacks of bigotry if you'd said 'so many Irish-Americans', or Irish-americans with exceptions' , etc people are touchy.

I didn't think it was racist, I thought the medium ironic. So ignorant loud mouth jerks suck...that's hardly news or an irish phenom. If there is a problem how do we promote international awareness without igniting violent nationalist instincts? is this post a complaint about jerks, a generalization about irish immigrants and their descendants, or a chance to identify the best techniques of heritage based internationalism?

The last ever more relevant as Asia and the middle east begin to face their own 2nd generation immigrants in significant numbers.

[#FF0000]

I don't know, man. It's a pretty distinct phenomenon with Irish-Americans, at least in the Northeast US. Everyone around here knows someone who insists that they're the most irish person ever even though they've never even left the state. And it's not that big a deal to me to be honest. I don't have some burning hatred for people like this. Like I said earlier in the thread: my family is full of them. It doesn't bother me but it's still ridiculous.

I'm just trying to explain where 727goon is coming from. Nothing he said was racist.

[Viet Minh]

On a wider scale if someone has an American flag, or the confederate one tattoed on them or flying in their yard, chances are they're a complete douche. People need to drop national/ ethnic identities as a general rule.

[Viet Minh]

A lot of Irish youth(15-20) are VERY anti eastern European. Maybe this could be the fact that its a rural area i live in.

Ireland has one of the highest percentages of white people, I think that its probably easier to hate minorities if you don't know many. As a WASP, I'm just glad the spotlight is on another group for once! :D But in my experience Irish and Irish diaspora are very anti racist, and more often than not left wing. I haven't met any American Irish.

[727Goon]

But in my experience Irish and Irish diaspora are very anti racist, and more often than not left wing

Oh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_draft_riots) really? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desegregation_busing_in_the_United_States#Boston.2 C_Massachusetts)

I'll give you that Irish Americans generally support unions and vote democratic so if you consider that left wing great.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Excactly, so if I were you I'd shut up about your opinion of the Irish.

Fuck man I was the one commiting entrapment with that argument


The same with Mexicans?

The worst, even worse than the Irish, are the fucking Cubans. Stop calling yourself a Cuban if you're 20-something and your parents left in the 1950s. I mean, sure, your religion and food and music and culture may be directly descended from Cuban culture but if your political stance is "Castro needs to go" then you're not a Cuban. Simple as that. I mean that's as in depth knowledge on Cuba as Irish-Americans have with blanket statements like 'brits need to get out" or "cromwell was bad but I don't really know why."

(dont take this seriously Im making a point. I love the culture and food in south florida, and the names of cuban women are among the better in the world i shit you not tho I don't think i could verify that one. i mean names like ismarai and such, especially with that tongue roll you know it sounds quite good much better than mary or sarah imo like all the irish-americans name their daughters)

[Mindtoaster]

I guess? I've never heard of anything like this among Mexican-Americans though.

lol wut

Where do you live?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_pUdl2TL60pU/SxcWy9N-DDI/AAAAAAAADZI/nAwkd6B3L_k/s400/Rey+Mysterio_mexican+tattoo.jpg

In the south-west, especially California, its as prevalent as plastic paddy culture, maybe more so.

Basically every non-WASP ethnic group in America does this shit to one degree or another. Comes with being a settler state I guess

Irish Americans just get more shit for it cause... Well I don't really know. I think a lot of people that claim to be Irish Americans just really aren't.

[Tim Finnegan]

Irish-Americans arent Irish.

No. Says the fact that they are not Irish. Unless they've got Irish citizenship, they are not Irish. They are American.
Yes, Irish-Americans aren't Irish as such, but, equally, African-Americans aren't African as such, and Chinese-Americans aren't Chinese as such. The hyphen is functional, not decorative.


And that's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that the people 727 are referring to are not Irish, know nothing of Ireland, yet embrace a bunch of outdated and stereotypical irish customs or whatever and then get loud about how Irish they are.
I honestly think that you and 727 are arguing different lines here. You're arguing against a particularly cultural tendency- which I suppose I'll take your word for being more real than I had realised- while he seems to find the very idea of Irishness as anything more than a passport somehow offensive.


So for the people who think the OP is racist, would you also consider the term "plastic paddy" to be racist as well...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_Paddy

...?

I'm not trying to make any kind of point in asking, I'm just curious.
Not in typical usage, but it can sometimes be classist- the most enthusiastic users of the term in Scotland are middle-class Irish immigrants who use it as part of a concious effort to separate themselves from working-class Irish-Scots, who they regard as boorish and distasteful. It can often be hurled at behaviour as simple as happening to wear a Celtic shirt or being called "Eamon", let alone anything truly obnoxious.

The two great lessons of Britain to Ireland: the English language, and a vicious contempt for those lower down the social pecking-order than yourself. Well done us, eh? :rolleyes:


Ireland has one of the highest percentages of white people, I think that its probably easier to hate minorities if you don't know many. As a WASP, I'm just glad the spotlight is on another group for once! :D
Ah, don't be so hard on yourself. You may be WASP-esque in Scotland, but as soon as you cross the Tweed, you're just another porridge wog as far as the Sassenachs are concerned. ;)


Oh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_draft_riots) really? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desegregation_busing_in_the_United_States#Boston.2 C_Massachusetts)

I'll give you that Irish Americans generally support unions and vote democratic so if you consider that left wing great.
Viet Minh is speaking from a British perspective, where the Irish and their descendents were the main right-wing whipping boy until the 1950s and continued to be viewed with widespread distaste as late as the 1980s, which tended to leave them with a tendency to lean leftwards and to have little time for overtly racist politics (individual prejudices being another matter, of course). Irish-Americans have a rather different history in that regard, given their middling place in America's more complicated racial hierarchies, and had a habit of ending up as the bootboys of white supremacy in urban areas, so desperate were they to cling on to the sad little scrap of status that they had.

[Viet Minh]

Ah, don't be so hard on yourself. You may be WASP-esque in Scotland, but as soon as you cross the Tweed, you're just another porridge wog as far as the Sassenachs are concerned. ;)

Honestly I've never come across that. The English have the same attitude to Scots as they have to Welsh, patronising, ignorant but not hateful. The English seem to vent their xenophobia on Germans and French. But again its all generalisations.

[Tim Finnegan]

Honestly I've never come across that. The English have the same attitude to Scots as they have to Welsh, patronising, ignorant but not hateful. The English seem to vent their xenophobia on Germans and French. But again its all generalisations.
Oh, I didn't mean to suggest that the English are all foaming anti-Scots bigots or anything like that, just that the Scots are not merely technically but sociologically a minority in England, so they tend to lose any WASP-equivalent status they might have in UK-wide terms.

[GallowsBird]

Ah, don't be so hard on yourself. You may be WASP-esque in Scotland, but as soon as you cross the Tweed, you're just another porridge wog as far as the Sassenachs are concerned. ;)

Nah, slightly lower south, most Northumbrian aren't even sure there is a border! ;)

And the Southrons think the Border is along the wall!

[GallowsBird]

Honestly I've never come across that. The English have the same attitude to Scots as they have to Welsh, patronising, ignorant but not hateful. The English seem to vent their xenophobia on Germans and French. But again its all generalisations.

Germans, French and now especially Poles.

[CommieTroll]

I'm ashamed to be Irish, I live in The Republic Of Ireland and all I see around me is Capitalist greed. The proletarians being controlled by alcohol and religion.

[Invader Zim]

"Irish struggle" in this country isn't tied to where they came from but the struggle that went on in this country. There was a time that Irish immigrants were looked down upon in the US...until their children became one of the major groups who inflicted racism upon the eastern europeans and italians who predominately made up the next wave of immigrants.

Did you know there is still racism against Irish people in the UK? Crazy notion I know. Here it seems like whatever product you have, if you slap a four leaf clover on it and call it Irish it will become much more popular. Food, beer, whiskey, bumpers of cars, bikinis, keychains...all that shit.


Have you ever been to the UK?

[Dr Mindbender]

Are sooo fucking annoying. I'm just gonna put it out there, if you identify as Irish and your parents werent immigrants to the US, chances are you're an enormous tool. Most "Irish" people in the US don't even know shit about the struggles going on in Ireland and for some reason a lot of them have been some of the most racist fucks I've encountered. (This should be a chit chat thread but I'm still restricted so you know)

It happens in England as well. When i lived in Manchester i got tired of second or third generation types coming over to me in a pub or whatever whenever i got into earshot of them, wanting to talk crap about the 'old country'. 90% of them have probably never set foot in Ireland in their life and yes some of them are the first to whinge about immigrants/other races.

[lines]

Well people in America call themselves African Americans even if they are only half black. They call themselves African Americans even if even their great grandparents never set foot in Africa. No one makes a big deal about that.

[#FF0000]

Well people in America call themselves African Americans even if they are only half black. They call themselves African Americans even if even their great grandparents never set foot in Africa. No one makes a big deal about that.

That's fine though because (something)-American is just describing their ethnicity.

[9]

Well people in America call themselves African Americans even if they are only half black. They call themselves African Americans even if even their great grandparents never set foot in Africa. No one makes a big deal about that.

There's a bit of a difference, namely that black people in the US get identified by the rest of society as "African-Americans" - it isn't an identity that's just adopted voluntarily purely because of an affinity for the label or something.

[Tim Finnegan]

Nah, slightly lower south, most Northumbrian aren't even sure there is a border! ;)

And the Southrons think the Border is along the wall!
Fools. Everyone knows that it rightfully runs along the Humber... http://forums.civfanatics.com/images/smilies/mischief.gif


It happens in England as well. When i lived in Manchester i got tired of second or third generation types coming over to me in a pub or whatever whenever i got into earshot of them, wanting to talk crap about the 'old country'. 90% of them have probably never set foot in Ireland in their life and yes some of them are the first to whinge about immigrants/other races.
To be fair to them, that may owe as much to personal identity issues as to to the sort posturing which FF has mentioned. The national identities of Englishness, Irishness, and so forth are often quite limited in their construction when compared to, say, Americanness, and in many cases are constructed as necessarily exclusive, so somebody who finds more than one nation playing a significant part in their formation can have trouble placing themselves, particularly if, as in this case, the cover-all identity of "British" isn't able to reconcile it. It's quite easy to be both Irish and American at the same time, but quite difficult to be both Irish and English.


There's a bit of a difference, namely that black people in the US get identified by the rest of society as "African-Americans" - it isn't an identity that's just adopted voluntarily purely because of an affinity for the label or something.
Actually, the label "African-American" emerged from within the African-American community as a replacement of "Negro", and was consciously constructed as the analogue of "Irish-American", "German-American", etc. "African", in this case, obviously plays a slightly different role than "Irish" or "German" do, but it's still a fair point that one can't unequivocally reject a particular "hyphenated" identity while ignoring another which is, if one insists on a very literal reading, even further from the truth.

[Viet Minh]

Well people in America call themselves African Americans even if they are only half black. They call themselves African Americans even if even their great grandparents never set foot in Africa. No one makes a big deal about that.


There's a bit of a difference, namely that black people in the US get identified by the rest of society as "African-Americans" - it isn't an identity that's just adopted voluntarily purely because of an affinity for the label or something.

Yeah the 'one drop' rule accounts for a lot of that.

[9]

Actually, the label "African-American" emerged from within the African-American community as a replacement of "Negro", and was consciously constructed as the analogue of "Irish-American", "German-American", etc. "African", in this case, obviously plays a slightly different role than "Irish" or "German" do, but it's still a fair point that one can't unequivocally reject a particular "hyphenated" identity while ignoring another which is, if one insists on a very literal reading, even further from the truth.

It isn't a fair point, and it is in fact the sort of thing you hear from people who cry "reverse racism".

Firstly, we're not talking about the labels, we're talking about the actual identities. If black Americans stopped identifying as "black Americans" it would mean absolutely nothing, because the rest of society - and the state - would still identify them as such. If people who call themselves "Irish" because their great great great grandparents came here from Ireland stopped calling themselves "Irish", literally no one else would. The idea that there is any parallel at all between the former identity and the latter is completely absurd.

[Tim Finnegan]

It isn't a fair point, and it is in fact the sort of thing you hear from people who cry "reverse racism".

Firstly, we're not talking about the labels, we're talking about the actual identities. If black Americans stopped identifying as "black Americans" it would mean absolutely nothing, because the rest of society - and the state - would still identify them as such. If people who call themselves "Irish" because their great great great grandparents came here from Ireland stopped calling themselves "Irish", literally no one else would. The idea that there is any parallel at all between the former identity and the latter is completely absurd.
But there's a difference between being "black" and being "African-American". The former is, as you quite rightly observe, an applied racial construct, not something which is volunteered to, while the latter can be a bit more complex. As much as it has become the polite way of saying "black", it has a distinct quality as an asserted identity, expressing not merely a received social category but a declared social identity, one which involves- it could even be argued is based around- a declaration association and solidarity with other "Africans", both among the African diaspora (e.g. Afro-Caribbeans, Afro-Brazilians, etc.) and in Africa itself.

Furthermore, I would argue that it's over-simplistic to regard a legitiamte Irish-American identity as necessarily being an Irish identity plopped down on American soil, and not something in and of itself. That may be how some boorish Irish-Americans interpret, certainly, but there is an Irish-American culture as distinct from an Irish culture, much as there is, say, an American Jewish culture distinct from a Central-Eastern European Jewish culture/s. It may not stand out too much these days, the Irish having been one of the earliest and more heavily integrated immigrant groups- not least because they only ever had so far to go- but it's got a certain presence.
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, Scottish-Canadians can be at least as boisterous about their identity as Irish-Americans are, but they tend to push fewer buttons because they stress neither part exclusively, instead regarding each half of their identity as an integral part of how they experience the other. That's perhaps what the "Plastic Paddies" are missing, although I wouldn't say that no enthusiastic Irish-Americans have managed to reach such a reconciliation- one example of note would be the Celtic-punk Dropkick Murphys, who are often regarded as the soundtrack of Plastic Paddydom, but who locate themselves very squarely and often explicitly in the Boston Irish community.

[GallowsBird]

Fools. Everyone knows that it rightfully runs along the Humber... http://forums.civfanatics.com/images/smilies/mischief.gif


:lol:

There was a campaign a few years ago to include all of the lands of Ye Olde Northumbria (to the Humber) incidentally! I sort of supported as I wouldn't have to cross a "technically non-existant other than on a map" border (marked at Carter Bar by some stones with "England" and "Scotland" written on them... Gads, as if the Borders aren't their own country!) to go a few miles up the road. Especially since some of my favourite places are on that side (Jeddart (Jedburgh to non Borderers), even if some of the people are...well... ;), and Howick (pronounced Hoyk) being the towns I like, but I prefer the countryside, the end in Scotland has some of the nice steeper fells).

[Jimmie Higgins]

Descendents of Jewish, Irish, Italian, immigrants (and many other groups too) often identify themselves in the way the OP was describing. In part that comes from the way people were segregated and treated during what is known as the first mass immigration wave to America. All these groups were more or less ghettoized and faces some level of extra-oppression on top of generally filling the least desirable jobs and ghettos and ethnic enclaves from this era of immigration lasted basically until WWII and there are some of these communities still around although they are mostly just relics or tourist-traps now. So the kind of soft-identity politics of many people in the US of Irish or South/Easter European descent is probably due in part to the experience of their parents and grandparents who probably grew up in mostly-Jewish or mostly-catholic urban neighborhoods. If these 2nd and 3rd generation kids of immigration then turn around and endorse anti-immigrant policies or right-wing politics it has more to do with their position in society and that they have the same basic experience of WASPS in the same class-position. I also think some of this soft-identity politics comes from people just feeling alienated from US society and seeking to identify with a culture that seems more "pure" - but this is just romanticism.

Edit: as evidence, consider that there are probably just as many anglophiles in the US as there are "plastic paddies" or "plastic pisanos" but I've never heard a Ian Smith who smokes British cigarettes and listens to Brit-pop or Mod or British Invasion music call himself "Anglo-American" (same goes for Franco-philes) in the same way someone says, "I'm from New Jersey, grew up there my whole life and I'm Italian". "Anglo-American" is only used in the US as a foreign policy term. So the common denominator for "Irish/Italian/Jewish" American comes from immigrant communities who suffered some kind of opression in the past.

[RGacky3]

Exactly, thte OPs post is simply out of ignorance, like the same people that complain about black hip hop gangster culture, its just simple minded ignorance.

[#FF0000]

Exactly, thte OPs post is simply out of ignorance, like the same people that complain about black hip hop gangster culture, its just simple minded ignorance.

nope