Christianity or Islam

[RedRaptor]

This is one for the atheists and agnostics; which group do you like more? If you had to pick a side which would it be? Posting comments and opinions would be what Im aiming for.

[Ocean Seal]

They're billion+ member groups. They're not homogenous, and preferring one over the other is entirely situational. Whether I support one or the other is based on what they preach, not what they label themselves as. There are thousands of interpretations of the Bible and Quaran. I support the progressive revolutionary interpretations in both, and I stand against the reactionary interpretations of both.

[danyboy27]

i dont see the point of sympathising with religion, i sympathise with peoples, religious or not.

[Johnny Kerosene]

I have an equal amount of contempt for all religions. Well, not quite equal, mormons get a little bit more hate. Nothing personal against anyone here who might be a mormon, it's just I've only met two and one's a libertarian and the other one and I just don't get along. Maybe it's because I say things like "goddamn" a lot.

[Octavian]

All religions are based on unsupported claims, there for none.

[smk]

why does the poll have christianity/creationism as an option? the christian story of creation is the same as the islamic and the jewish story.

that being said, there is no such thing as christianity or islam. there is an entire spectrum of beliefs which people call "Islamic." there are too many interpretations to bunch them all into some monolithic figure.

[DDR]

I voted wotanism for the lulz, if every religion is more or least racist at least go with the hardcore stuff!!! (its a joke, not a fascist I promise! :P)

Now, seriously, Islam, Judaism and Christianity are all the same, same god, diferent profets, diferen scriptures

[MattShizzle]

Neither. Both are repressive and irrational. If I absolutely had to pick a religion it would likely be some form of paganism. Or maybe the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Certainly not one of the Abrahamic religions.

[hatzel]

The premise of this thread is kinda funny. Also it already exists in some form over here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/religion-most-appealing-t103184/index.html) :)

[Magón]

I DO fight all religions, not TRY to fight all religions.

There is no "trying" on that front for me.

[Manic Impressive]

All power structures which religions hold must be destroyed. Religion must not be organized in order to hinder it's counter revolutionary effects while religion must also never be forbidden.

[Die Rote Fahne]

I sympathize with the working class.

[Dumb]

I voted wotanism for the lulz, if every religion is more or least racist at least go with the hardcore stuff!!! (its a joke, not a fascist I promise! :P)

Was this comment addressed to me? ;)

[agnixie]

I voted wotanism for the lulz, if every religion is more or least racist at least go with the hardcore stuff!!! (its a joke, not a fascist I promise! :P)

Now, seriously, Islam, Judaism and Christianity are all the same, same god, diferent profets, diferen scriptures

Actually there are quite significant difference, especially since Islam and Christianity are more orthodoxy-oriented than orthopraxis-oriented, which makes Judaism ironically closer to old school paganism than to its descendent religions in this aspect. There's admittedly more orthopraxy in some branches of christianity, islam, druzism and baha'i but yeah.

[DDR]

I think Catholithism is more close to the pagan religions than Judaism. A lot of local gods, godess and demigods were transformed into saints and virgins. For example the city where my parents live the week after easter there's a parade in order to thank la Virgen del Prado for the harvest and a good Spring. In roman times they also did this thing but with godess Ceres (and Ceres' temple was where now is la Basilica del Prado)



Was this comment addressed to me? ;)

Yes, it was a pun :D

[agnixie]

I think Catholithism is more close to the pagan religions than Judaism. A lot of local gods, godess and demigods were transformed into saints and virgins. For example the city where my parents live the week after easter there's a parade in order to thank la Virgen del Prado for the harvest and a good Spring. In roman times they also did this thing but with godess Ceres (and Ceres' temple was where now is la Basilica del Prado)

That was one of the branches of christianity I was implying was more orthopraxic >.>

[Aspiring Humanist]

Although there are severe tyrannical exceptions (Mubarak, Hussein, Pahlavi, etc.) Muslims are generally the anti-imperialists, especially in Palestine, and oil-rich nations. And given Christianity's power hegemony in the western world for the past few hundred years, and the imperialists generally being Christians, I have to side with the Muslims.

If possible I would like to avoid dividing people by religion, that only distracts and separates us from them.

[agnixie]

Although there are severe tyrannical exceptions (Mubarak, Hussein, Pahlavi, etc.) Muslims are generally the anti-imperialists, especially in Palestine, and oil-rich nations. And given Christianity's power hegemony in the western world for the past few hundred years, and the imperialists generally being Christians, I have to side with the Muslims.

If possible I would like to avoid dividing people by religion, that only distracts and separates us from them.

... your tyrannical exceptions ran secular governments, and oil-rich nations are catering to their own right wing fundies in droves. The only reason Hamas is seen as mildly anti-imperialist is because of the occupation, otherwise Hamas was initially a tool of the british occupation when it was the muslim brethren.

[Aspiring Humanist]

... your tyrannical exceptions ran secular governments, and oil-rich nations are catering to their own right wing fundies in droves. The only reason Hamas is seen as mildly anti-imperialist is because of the occupation, otherwise Hamas was initially a tool of the british occupation when it was the muslim brethren.

>implying Hamas is the only Palestinian organization fighting the occupation

[agnixie]

>implying Hamas is the only Palestinian organization fighting the occupation

Congrats, you know how to make strawmen, you'll go far in life.
I didn't imply such, not remotely. I've regularly criticized the fact that some people seem to think of them as the "one true palestinian group"

[ComradeMan]

This poll is rather badly thought out.

For a start the title says Christianity or Islam yet the poll includes Judaism and other options. The next thing "Christianity/Creationism" implies that intelligent design/creationism i.e. conflict with evolutionary theory is some kind of "synonym" whereas there are in fact many Christians, including the established Holy See of Roman Catholicism, who do not have a problem with evolutionary theory and there are, no doubt, many other religions/religious groups who perhaps do have objectors within their ranks.

Apart from that, the intellectual level of "which side would you pick" yet again reduces any kind of serious debate to the same level as which football team one supports.

Uber-fail.:thumbup1:

[RedRaptor]

Sorry for not being a perfectionist. The question is more or less based on the recent Dawkins thread. Ive watched a few arguments online and with xenophobic Christians trying to keep Islam out of Europe the question comes to mind if you had to pick a side, to atleast push your own view which would it be.

I added the other choices because questions should never have black and white answers. Thats goes along with the fact that you can post a reply and explain your vote.

So, as an atheist, which religion would be best to support? Atleast short term for your own purpose.
Judaism is there because some athiests are jewish and the middle ground i there for obvious reasons.

Wotanism is there because Im a White Supremacist ROFL!!!

[Magón]

Judaism is there because some athiests are jewish

What? :confused:

[RedRaptor]

Its complicated. Some dont follow the religion but still protect their religious blah blah blah you get it.

[hatzel]

What, you mean these guys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_atheism)? :)

[Viet Minh]

All religions are equally shit, however I wouldn't fight them unless they are imposing their warped morality on others, through homophobia, chauvanism, racism, violence etc. My real beef with religion is when they target vulnerable people with brainwashing. The Abrahamic Faiths are full of just and moral values, but imo the theory of religion is irrelevant, what matters is the effect. And in the cases cited above the effect has included murder, imperialism, terrorism, elitism, bigotry. Its not because of the religions themselves, its because mankind is fucked up. There are many good people who follow those faiths, and doubtless good people who are Satanist as well, but organised public and particualrly political religion is the ruination of a nation.

[smk]

I added the other choices because questions should never have black and white answers.

So you chose to include Judaism because it is "between" Christianity and Islam. (?):confused:

This thread is worthless.

[Sir Comradical]

Islam, because a lot of them already hate imperialism.

[tradeunionsupporter]

Neither

[progressive_lefty]

I guess the civil wars in Lebanon (ie Christian vs Muslim) is relevant to this thread. I agree with what others have said, it all depends on the type of religious sect. There's going to be some Muslims and Christians that are very right-wing and conservative, but there will also be some Muslims and Christians that are more leftwing and liberal minded. We can only wish they didn't exist altogether.

[Inquisitive Lurker]

All religions should be opposed. Judaism can be mostly ignored as a religion given it's small size (though strong influence in US-Israeli affairs). Modern Christianity has a good chance of of being converted to Christian Humanism, then Secular Humanism. Islam is a problem, and it will probably take a long time and lots of education for it to be dealt with.

I can't believe 9 people voted for Wotanism, even as a joke.

[IndependentCitizen]

You serious?

[Inquisitive Lurker]

You serious?
I believe so. Which part do you find incredulous?

1. All religions should be opposed.
2. Judaism can be mostly ignored as a religion given it's small size (though strong influence in US-Israeli affairs).
3. Modern Christianity has a good chance of of being converted to Christian Humanism, then Secular Humanism.
4. Islam is a problem, and it will probably take a long time and lots of education for it to be dealt with.
5. I can't believe 9 people voted for Wotanism, even as a joke.

[Anarchrusty]

Yeah but the question was, if you had to choose between the two. Not really rock science.

[Quail]

I don't think that we should be "siding" with any religion just because it is the lesser of evils. All organised religion should be opposed.

[smk]

3. Modern Christianity has a good chance of of being converted to Christian Humanism, then Secular Humanism.
4. Islam is a problem, and it will probably take a long time and lots of education for it to be dealt with.

Source? Logic?

How is Islam a 'problem'? Why do Muslims need to be 'educated'? And for that matter, educated in what exactly? Should they all be forcibly converted to whatever religion by your non-existent logic is 'best'? There is very little difference in the beliefs of christians, jews, and muslims, yet you act like islam is something entirely different. PLEASE tell me what you believe is so radically different from Christianity which makes Islam a 'problem'?

[Delenda Carthago]

Ι dont like either, but you have to admit that the christian world is way more progressive nowdays. Islam is in the stage that Christianity was in the Dark Ages. So if I had to say, I would choose it.

[Inquisitive Lurker]

Source? Logic?

How is Islam a 'problem'? Why do Muslims need to be 'educated'? And for that matter, educated in what exactly? Should they all be forcibly converted to whatever religion by your non-existent logic is 'best'? There is very little difference in the beliefs of christians, jews, and muslims, yet you act like islam is something entirely different. PLEASE tell me what you believe is so radically different from Christianity which makes Islam a 'problem'?

As another poster as mentioned in the intervening time, Christianity has become watered down. Church attendance is at an all time low. There are sects of Christianity that have almost no hard dogma anymore. Take the dear old COE (Church of England, Anglican Churches, Episcopalian Churchs). Wishy-washy Christian Humanism. Now compare that to old school Catholicism, and it's a huge step in the right direction. One more step to Secular Humanism. And the Humanist Bible, which I'm part way through reading, is fantastic.

Islam is a younger religion, and behaves like one. Fundamentalist Islam really isn't that far from mainstream Islam. Try getting a "mainstream" mullah to denounce the crazier bits of Sharia law. He'll weasel his way out of it (I've listened to several debates and lectures where they do just that). As for education, it's not so much the people need education as Muslims ("Why do Muslims need to be 'educated'?") it's the people of the countries where Islam flourishes that need education in general. Take a look at the education levels in the Muslim world, they are abysmal. Teach them to think for themselves, and they won't listen to the Fundamentalists. That's a first step. Educate them further, and they'll start asking questions. Questions can lead them to freedom.

We need schools, not churches and mosques. Every human is entitled to a good secular education.

[smk]

As another poster as mentioned in the intervening time, Christianity has become watered down. Church attendance is at an all time low.There are sects of Christianity that have almost no hard dogma anymore. Take the dear old COE (Church of England, Anglican Churches, Episcopalian Churchs). Wishy-washy Christian Humanism. Now compare that to old school Catholicism, and it's a huge step in the right direction.
You seem to be implying that in order to be a Muslim, you must be dogmatic or an 'extremist.' Whereas, if you are Christian, you dont have to be that. You have options that don't exist for Muslims. Once again, you seem to have no actual premise to base this on. How many extremist Muslims have you met in real life compared to moderate Muslims? (I use the terms extremist and moderate with reserve because these terms are rather vacuous, but they are in language you probably understand.) You lack any sort of base in reality. There is nothing fundamentally different about Islam which makes it more prone to cause extremism.

One more step to Secular Humanism. And the Humanist Bible, which I'm part way through reading, is fantastic.
I didnt know what this was, so I looked it up. [The Humanist Bible incorporates the work of ]"Herodotus and Lucretius, Confucius and Mencius, Seneca and Cicero, Montaigne, Bacon." So what does this have anything to do with Christianity?

Islam is a younger religion, and behaves like one. Fundamentalist Islam really isn't that far from mainstream Islam. Try getting a "mainstream" mullah to denounce the crazier bits of Sharia law. He'll weasel his way out of it (I've listened to several debates and lectures where they do just that).
fine. GZy_Ansc3TQ9PWxDLad6eA
However, I can guarantee you that most of what you percieve as 'extremism' is actually a result of geographic culture. why is there a comparatively higher percentage of moderate muslims in the west than in the east? because of the culture of europe and america, not because of any religion.

As for education, it's not so much the people need education as Muslims ("Why do Muslims need to be 'educated'?") it's the people of the countries where Islam flourishes that need education in general. Take a look at the education levels in the Muslim world, they are abysmal. Teach them to think for themselves, and they won't listen to the Fundamentalists. That's a first step. Educate them further, and they'll start asking questions. Questions can lead them to freedom. We need schools, not churches and mosques. Every human is entitled to a good secular education.
This has nothing to do with Islam. If they were 'uneducated', they would believe anything, be it Islam, Buddhism, Christianity, etc. You are inserting random valid points like that everyone deserves a secular education. You are arguing something else entirely than "Islam is a problem.'

[graffic]

I would prefer the Bible over the Qura'n. The Quran isn't even worth reading, it is a bunch of fairytale stories about a violent paedophile who conquered Arabia. At least Jesus had a pretty overall sound message which actually advanced societies for the better historically

[GallowsBird]

I can't believe 9 people voted for Wotanism, even as a joke.

Maybe they confused it for Germanic Heathenism? Which some call Wodenism (which is an highly innacurate name of course as Woden is but one aspect of deity in that religion, or collection of spiritual beliefs). Contrary to what some may think, Germanic Heathens are mostly not Neo-Nazi scum-bags who connect their faith with their blood and melanin levels. Incidentally, if you go to "Germanic" or oddly perhaps, "Germano-Celtic" racist sites like Skadi you'll notice most aren't even Heathen just the usual "Christian" (no offence to Christians) White Supremacists obsessed with "evil old Islam" and Muslamic Ray-Guns and the supposed inferiority of Black Men, but with an interest in ancient myths (my use here of "myth" referring to stories that have a religions, spiritual or religious significance, of course, rather than in the sense of "not true, fictitious" as I don't wish to debate the truthfulness or falseness of religious writings in regards to historicity).

[GallowsBird]

I would prefer the Bible over the Qura'n.

You're choice. Most Muslims are familiar with both.


The Quran isn't even worth reading

I disagree, most books have at least something worth reading them for including the Bible and the Quran. That is not to say you should believe or accept them. I don't, but I'd never say they are 100% worthless.



it is a bunch of fairytale stories

And the Bible isn't? If you had read the Quran (though it isn't worth reading according to you) then you'd realise that the Quran actually dwells less on these fairy stories than the Bible does. Hence many (if not most) Muslims read the Bible for its descriptive nature* while not accepting it as 100% correct as to them the teachings of Mohammad contained in the Quran are the last stage of "Abrahamic" wisdom.


about a violent paedophile who conquered Arabia.

You do realise that the era was violent (and in fact Mohammad isn't very violent for the era) and that most people in the world would be considered "paedos" by todays standard. In Europe they married girls as young as Mohammad did.


At least Jesus had a pretty overall sound message which actually advanced societies for the better historically

Really? His main message is "Believe in me or you'll go to hell" which in my opinion isn't sound as I am not a Christian. Some of his messages are good, no doubt about it, but others not so.

Incidentally other than all the "I am the son of God" stuff, his messages are actually contained in the Quran (you should read some of it before criticising it... just a thought) where he is called Isa (the Arabic form of Joshua (Jesus being the Greek form)). It should also be noted that Jesus (Isa) is still regarded as the Messiah in Islam, though he was a man and was taken to heaven while alive (unless you follow the Ahmadiyya tradition in which he is said to have died in India).


*Though the Quran doesn't dwell on Biblical tales or descriptions as much as the Bible, the Hadith does describe Jesus (or Isa as they call him) in various ways depending on when he is encountered in his life (note he didn't die on the cross and then arise and ascend to Heaven according to Islam).

[agnixie]

I would prefer the Bible over the Qura'n. The Quran isn't even worth reading, it is a bunch of fairytale stories about a violent paedophile who conquered Arabia. At least Jesus had a pretty overall sound message which actually advanced societies for the better historically

Jesus had a shitty message based about tearing apart families, submitting to authority because... and yeah. Sorry but neither is any good. The pedophile thing is trolling of the lowest order which completely ignores the historical context: women at the time were married off that young even in christian nations, and the official "legal" catholic age for marriage is still barely pubescent. Singling out Islam about it is utterly moronic.

[hatzel]

Jesus had a shitty message

Woah woah woah woah woah...don't diss JC, bro! That guy had it going on! :)

[Inquisitive Lurker]

You seem to be implying that in order to be a Muslim, you must be dogmatic or an 'extremist.' Whereas, if you are Christian, you dont have to be that. You have options that don't exist for Muslims.
No, what I said was the Christianity is watering itself down, whereas Islam is still in a strong form. Islamic Humanism has yet to exist.


I didnt know what this was, so I looked it up. [The Humanist Bible incorporates the work of ]"Herodotus and Lucretius, Confucius and Mencius, Seneca and Cicero, Montaigne, Bacon." So what does this have anything to do with ChristianityActually I misspoke. I was referring to "The Good Book - A Humanist Bible" which is something new. A guy rewrote the Bible.


Why is there a comparatively higher percentage of moderate Muslims in the west than in the east? Because of the culture of Europe and America, not because of any religion.And education.


This has nothing to do with Islam. If they were 'uneducated', they would believe anything, be it Islam, Buddhism, Christianity, etc.You are quite correct, if you are uneducated or undereducated, you will believe any religion. And if you are in a country where 90+% of the people follow a certain religion, guess which religion you will be believing.

[hatzel]

Islamic Humanism has yet to exist.

Not to be that guy, but...yeah (http://www.jstor.org/pss/604423)...

[agnixie]

Woah woah woah woah woah...don't diss JC, bro! That guy had it going on! :)

Fine, that was probably somewhat uncalled for >.>

[hatzel]

Fine, that was probably somewhat uncalled for >.>

You've got to play it safe, on the off chance he actually is the Son, the Father and the Holy Ghost or whatever. Don't want to show up in Heaven and have good ol' St. Peter saying '...didst thou not show dishonour to the ministry of the Son of Man?' :tt2:

[agnixie]

You've got to play it safe, on the off chance he actually is the Son, the Father and the Holy Ghost or whatever. Don't want to show up in Heaven and have good ol' St. Peter saying '...didst thou not show dishonour to the ministry of the Son of Man?' :tt2:

"I think you nailed it... oh shit" :tt2:

[Kamos]

I do not favor either religion one tiny bit.

[hatzel]

You are quite correct, if you are uneducated or undereducated, you will believe any religion. And if you are in a country where 90+% of the people follow a certain religion, guess which religion you will be believing.

I dunno, why don't you ask this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zablon_Simintov)? :)

[Inquisitive Lurker]

I dunno, why don't you ask this guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zablon_Simintov)? :)
He's not from Afghanistan.

[hatzel]

He's not from Afghanistan.

Indeed. He's originally from Turkmenistan. A country where 93% of people are Muslims. 0.015% (that is to say, about 1000 out of a population of 6.5 million) are Jewish. What difference does that make, exactly?

Incidentally, are you going to address my last post, about your bogus claims that Islamic Humanism has yet to exist? If you're too lazy to read the thing, I'll just cite a relevant section from the intro:


Two major intellectual movements, which we have long considered as of exclusively Western origin, have their roots deep down in Islamic soil. The first movement, appropriately called scholasticism, is that of the school guilds in the Middle Age; the second is that of humanism in the Italian Renaissance.

These two intellectual movements are still with us today in our systems of higher education. I believe that both had their origins in Islam, because of certain exigencies relative to the Islam religion and to classical Arabic.

[Inquisitive Lurker]

Incidentally, are you going to address my last post, about your bogus claims that Islamic Humanism has yet to exist? If you're too lazy to read the thing, I'll just cite a relevant section from the intro:

That link allows me to read one page with no context from one publication. Hardly useful. Maybe if I could read the whole thing I might be able to respond.

[Thirsty Crow]

I voted for "Wotanism" as a protest vote: the poll question is fucking ridiculous.

To answer the broader question: I sympathize fully with reasonable, moderate believers of any religion who also do not favour forcing the ethical precepts of their religion on anyone (abortion issue, for example). Though, I'm well aware that not many Christians, for example, would be completely ok with full birth control rights, including free and safe abortion at any time, legislation. That's why I'd also sympathize with those believers who have doubts and are not sure on this.

[hatzel]

That link allows me to read one page with no context from one publication. Hardly useful. Maybe if I could read the whole thing I might be able to respond.

Well it's not my fault you don't have a JStor account or whatever. Still, the point remains, as is made clear even on that first page, that many elements of humanism were developed by Islamic philosophers, in Islamic cultural and religious surroundings, before being imported into Europe in the Renaissance. It's a dastardly Eurocentric (though unfortunately prevalent) viewpoint to ignore that, to claim that all of these ideas and innovations are exclusively European, to the extent that you would even claim that Islamic humanism has never existed! One could easily argue, actually, that all humanism is, for all intents and purposes, Islamic humanism, much of it finding its synthesis in the Islamic world...you can read about this in all manner of books. Here's one (http://www.amazon.co.uk/History-Islamic-Philosophy-Routledge-Philosophies/dp/0415259347/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1305381052&sr=8-1) you can start with.

Also I notice that you skipped over the top half of my post, probably because you had made yet another bullshit, unsubstantiated claim, which was shown to be totally rebuked by the simplest of statistics, as observed on the ground...:rolleyes: Feel like maybe explaining: a) how the presence of religious minorities fits in with your original (implied) claim, and; b) what relevance that has to your overarching theory?

[Inquisitive Lurker]

Also I notice that you skipped over the top half of my post, probably because you had made yet another bullshit, unsubstantiated claim, which was shown to be totally rebuked by the simplest of statistics, as observed on the ground...:rolleyes: Feel like maybe explaining: a) how the presence of religious minorities fits in with your original (implied) claim, and; b) what relevance that has to your overarching theory?

I did say "where 90+% of the population follows a certain religion." I did not say 100%

Also I said for those raised there.

Also I said for the uneducated and undereducated.

My assertion stands.


We need schools. We need good secular education.

[smk]

I did say "where 90+% of the population follows a certain religion." I did not say 100%

Also I said for those raised there.

Also I said for the uneducated and undereducated.

My assertion stands.


We need schools. We need good secular education.

This wasnt your original assertion which started this flame war. No one is arguing that schools are bad.

[hatzel]

I did say "where 90+% of the population follows a certain religion." I did not say 100%

Also I said for those raised there.

Also I said for the uneducated and undereducated.

Obviously. You suggested, though, that if 90+% of the people followed a given religion, then uneducated and undereducated people would believe that religion by default. The existence of very small minority religions throughout history disproves that suggestion. The 1000-strong Tatar Muslim community in Finland disproves that suggestion. The 750-strong Jewish community of Armenia disproves that suggestion. The 4000 or so Christians in Yemen disprove that suggestion. The 365 Confucians in Fiji disprove that suggestion. And how about the 10,000-15,000 Sikhs in Indonesia, 0.0043% of the population? These people were once (and in some cases still are) pretty much uneducated, yet they remain as distinct religion minorities, without assimilating into their surrounding populations. They were born there, raised there, died there, for generation after generation after generation for hundreds or even thousands of years, they may never have gone to school, learnt to read or write, anything like that, but still, somehow, they didn't adopt the religion of the vast majority. You claimed that they would. It is painfully obvious to anybody with two brain cells to rub together that they have not. Therefore, you have no choice but to explain it, somehow within the bounds of your original assertion, or recant...

[Die Rote Fahne]

I would prefer the Bible over the Qura'n. The Quran isn't even worth reading, it is a bunch of fairytale stories about a violent paedophile who conquered Arabia. At least Jesus had a pretty overall sound message which actually advanced societies for the better historically

HAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Talking snakes, a 900 year old building giant boats that house two of every species of animals, a guy getting swallowed by a whale, zombie son of god who is actually god not the son, death sentence for working on the sabbath, just totally absurd practices and beliefs, contradictions everywhere.

The bible is no encyclopedia.

Also, considering in the US a hundred years ago people let their 12 year old daughters marry 30 year old men, i mean come on.

Not defending Islam, but dont give Christians a free ride.

[Astarte]

This thread seemed a little "lullzy" to me so I tried to stay out of it for a while but I feel I might have something to add. I answered Judaism, since in the poll Christianity is listed as "Christianity/Creationism" and anything remotely occult, esoteric or hermetic is not listed.

Anyway...

The idea of "Wotanism" goes back to an essay Carl Jung unfortunately wrote back in the 1930s. I've read it, and while he doesn't condone what was happening in Germany, he also didn't enthusiastically condemn Nazism as strongly as he should have, since this inevitably was probably going to come up anyway in discussing this work by Jung:


Jung and professional organizations in Germany, 1933 to 1939
In 1933, after the Nazis gained power in Germany, Jung took part in restructuring of the General Medical Society for Psychotherapy (Allgemeine Ärztliche Gesellschaft für Psychotherapie), a German-based professional body with an international membership. The society was reorganized into two distinct bodies:
A strictly German body, the Deutsche Allgemeine Ärztliche Gesellschaft für Psychotherapie, led by Matthias Göring, an Adlerian psychotherapist[49] and a cousin of the prominent Nazi Hermann Göring;
International General Medical Society for Psychotherapy, led by Jung. The German body was to be affiliated to the international society, as were new national societies being set up in Switzerland and elsewhere.[50]


C. G. Jung Institute, Küsnacht, Switzerland
The International Society's constitution permitted individual doctors to join it directly, rather than through one of the national affiliated societies, a provision to which Jung drew attention in a circular in 1934.[51] This implied that German Jewish doctors could maintain their professional status as individual members of the international body, even though they were excluded from the German affiliate, as well as from other German medical societies operating under the Nazis.[52]
As leader of the international body, Jung assumed overall responsibility for its publication, the Zentralblatt für Psychotherapie. In 1933, this journal published a statement endorsing Nazi positions[53] and Hitler's book Mein Kampf.[54] In 1934, Jung wrote in a Swiss publication, the Neue Zürcher Zeitung, that he experienced "great surprise and disappointment"[55] when the Zentralblatt associated his name with the pro-Nazi statement.
Jung went on to say "the main point is to get a young and insecure science into a place of safety during an earthquake".[56] He did not end his relationship with the Zentralblatt at this time, but he did arrange the appointment of a new managing editor, Carl Alfred Meier of Switzerland. For the next few years, the Zentralblatt under Jung and Meier maintained a position distinct from that of the Nazis, in that it continued to acknowledge contributions of Jewish doctors to psychotherapy.[57]
In the face of energetic German attempts to Nazify the international body, Jung resigned from its presidency in 1939,[57] the year the Second World War started.
[edit] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_jung#Jung_and_professional_organizations_in_G ermany.2C_1933_to_1939

Jung says in "Wotan":


"But what is more curious - indeed, piquant to a degree is that an ancient god of storm of frenzy, the long quiescent Wotan, should awake, like an extinct volcano, to new activity, in a civilized country that had long been supposed to have out-grown the Middle Ages. We have seen him come to life in the German Youth Movement, and right at the beginning the blood of several sheep was shed in honor of his resurrection. Armed with rucksack and lute, blond youths, and sometimes girls as well, were to be seen as restless wanderers on every road from the North Cape to Sicily, faithful votaries of the roving god. Later, towards the end of the Weimar Republic, the wandering role was taken over by thousands of unemployed, who were to be met with everywhere on their aimless journeys. By 1933 they wandered no longer, but marched in their hundreds of thousands. The Hitler movement literally brought the whole of Germany to its feet, from five-year-olds to veterans, and produced the spectacle of a nation migrating from one place to another. Wotan the wanderer was on the move. He could be seen looking rather shameface, in the meeting-house of a sect of simple folk in North Germany, disguised as Christ sitting on a white horse. I do not know if these people were aware of Wotan's ancient connection with the figures of Christ and Dionysus, but it is not very probable".

...

"It seems to me that Wotan hits the mark as an hypothesis. Apparently he really was only asleep in the Kyffhauser mountain until the ravens called him and announced the break of day. He is a fundamental attribute of the German psyche, an irrational psychic factor which acts on the high pressure of civilization like a cyclone and blows it away. Despite their crankiness, the Wotan-worshippers seem to have judged things more correctly than the worshippers of reason. Apparently everyone had forgotten that Wotan is a Germanic datum of first importance, the truest expression and unsurpassed personification of fundamental quality that is particularly characteristic of the Germans. Houston Stewart Chamberlain is a symptom which arouses suspicion that other veiled gods may be sleeping else-where. The emphasis on the Germanic race (vulgarly called "Aryan"), the Germanic heritage, blood and soil, the Wagalaweia songs, the ride of the Valkyries, Jesus as a blond and blue-eyed hero, the Greek mother of St. Paul, the devil as an international Alberich in Jewish or Masonic guise, the Nordic aurora borealis as the light of civilization, the inferior Mediterranean races - all this is indispensable scenery for the drama that is taking place and at bottom they all mean the same thing: a god has taken possession of the Germans and their house is filled with a "mighty rushing wind." It was soon after Hitler seized power, if I am not mistaken, that a cartoon appeared in Punch of a raving berserker tearing himself free from his bonds. A hurricane has broken loose in Germany while we still believe it is fine weather." Wotan, Civilization in Transition

Essentially Jung said that psychologically Nazism was an upswelling of the frenzied, berserker god Wotan - a kind of mass archetypal possession of German collective unconsciousness.

Unfortunately, Neo-Nazis seem to have found this very short essay by Jung and like to co-opt "Wotanism" for their own aims, apparently unaware of the fact that Jung, and most people for instance, don't think of mass archetypal possession of your countries collective unconsciousness as that great of a thing.

[Inquisitive Lurker]

Therefore, you have no choice but to explain it, somehow within the bounds of your original assertion, or recant...
Here lies the link between ethnicity and family when it comes to religious choice. But in the cases of these religious minorities, they are shrinking slivers in the pie chart of religions in any given country, while the majority (or pluralities) religion(s) grows. There will always be a fringe until, like an example I won't name, they shrink to a size to small to sustain itself.

Consider the global population of Judaism, a minority religion (0.23% yet it gets a lot of press). Is it growing? Are people converting the Judaism? Are children following in their parents footsteps? How many more identify themselves as merely "culturally" Jewish? (Similar to the phenomenon of England being "culturally" Christian, though more and more identify themselves as non-religious, and those that don't primarily belong to the Anglican Church, which is very watered down).

EDIT: Gawd, a 10th person has voted for Wotanism. Either we have people with a bad sense of humor or closet white supremacists or Neo-Nazis.

[hatzel]

But in the cases of these religious minorities, they are shrinking slivers in the pie chart of religions in any given country, while the majority (or pluralities) religion(s) grows.

Feel like backing that claim up with statistics or something? The only numbers I have to hand suggest that the majority religion tends to decrease in size (often numerically as well as proportionately), whilst smaller religions have a tendency to grow...that seems to be the complete opposite of what you just said...


Consider the global population of Judaism, a minority religion (0.23% yet it gets a lot of press). Is it growing?
Great example (and not just because I know about it! :tt2:). It's pretty well-known that very orthodox denominations of Judaism (Haredi, Hasidic) double in size every 10-15 years, thanks in part to a very high birthrate, and in part to the baal teshuva movement. Looks quite like growth to me. All manner of statistics will show us that, when it comes to those Jews living as a minority, the percentage who adhere to 'ultra-orthodox' denominations is increasing, the numbers in these communities is increasing at a rate otherwise unheard of in pretty much any other community the western world...generally, yes, religious Judaism is showing all the signs of growing, growing, growing! :)

[Inquisitive Lurker]

According to the CIA World Factbook (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/xx.html) Judaism has been on the decline for the last 10 years, going from 0.25% to 0.23%. But of course they must be lying. Go check for yourself. Check the current World Factbook, then check the back issues (they issue one every year).

[smk]

According to the CIA World Factbook (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/xx.html) Judaism has been on the decline for the last 10 years, going from 0.25% to 0.23%. But of course they must be lying. Go check for yourself. Check the current World Factbook, then check the back issues (they issue one every year).

I think you must be confused on the difference between relative growth and growth.

[hatzel]

Interesting. Except for the fact that over the last decade, the total Jewish population has increased by around 507.000. That's an increase of about 4%...

Even without that, these statistics are totally irrelevant. The discussion was about religious minority groups in certain countries. The fact that the huge population growth of the hundreds of millions of people in the developing world overpowers the relatively smaller growth of a population of 13 million, almost exclusively in the developed world, makes no difference to that discussion. It's a stupidly broad area to consider, and, by doing that, you could effectively claim that Europeans are dying out, as the percentage of the world's population who are European is, in fact, decreasing year on year. You'll have to do better than that if you're going to use statistics to back up your dubious claims...

[graffic]

HAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Talking snakes, a 900 year old building giant boats that house two of every species of animals, a guy getting swallowed by a whale, zombie son of god who is actually god not the son, death sentence for working on the sabbath, just totally absurd practices and beliefs, contradictions everywhere.

The bible is no encyclopedia.

Also, considering in the US a hundred years ago people let their 12 year old daughters marry 30 year old men, i mean come on.

Not defending Islam, but dont give Christians a free ride.

So your ignoring of facts certainly makes for an interesting discussion. Are you suggesting Mohammed was not a paedophile? Was he hot violent? There are facts that prove this. But you seem to be taking issue with these facts for some reason. Why are you getting upset?

The title of this thread at the top of the page reads "Christianity or Islam". I then wrote my reply stating indisputable facts. Mohammed was a violent paedophile. I don't give a fuck about Christianity. The idea of God in general is a load of bullshit however i will say that the pacifist message of Jesus was a lot more interesting than some violent paedophile who wants everyone to pray towards mecca because he was pissed off that the Jews rejected him as a prophet

[hatzel]

Graffic = massive idiot :)

[graffic]

I'm surprised your not banned yet. Why do you troll in OI pretending to be Jewish? You should reveal your true identity

[Inquisitive Lurker]

It's a stupidly broad area to consider, and, by doing that, you could effectively claim that Europeans are dying out, as the percentage of the world's population who are European is, in fact, decreasing year on year.

Europeans are not declining just as a percentage of the world population, they are decreasing genuinely. Birth rates are going down each year. At some projected point in the next 50 years (I forget the exact statistic), the birth death rates are going to reach parity. The population growth is currently at 0.098% The global population growth is 1.092%. That's one 11th the golbal average.

[Die Rote Fahne]

So your ignoring of facts certainly makes for an interesting discussion. Are you suggesting Mohammed was not a paedophile? Was he hot violent? There are facts that prove this. But you seem to be taking issue with these facts for some reason. Why are you getting upset?

The title of this thread at the top of the page reads "Christianity or Islam". I then wrote my reply stating indisputable facts. Mohammed was a violent paedophile. I don't give a fuck about Christianity. The idea of God in general is a load of bullshit however i will say that the pacifist message of Jesus was a lot more interesting than some violent paedophile who wants everyone to pray towards mecca because he was pissed off that the Jews rejected him as a prophet

AAAAAHEEMMMMMM, and I quote, "Not defending Islam".

Jesus' message wasn't all that pacifistic. Regardless of "turn the other cheek". Believe in me, or my genocidal father, who is also me, will send you to hell to suffer an eternity of fiery torture. Even if you did good you're whole life.

If you support Jesus, you support Christianity. Christianity supports the death penalty for people who work on Sunday, though Christians who pick and choose (all of them) disregard this. Christianity upholds eating shellfish as the equivalent to sodomy "an abomination towards god". Not that there's anything wrong with sodomy, I like blowjobs and handjobs, and if a guy likes it up the pooper, good for him, but back to Christian hypocrisy.

Christians just manage to ignore the crazy, that's all they have on Islam.

My Point:

Christianity is no better than Islam. Their prophets may have been totally different people, but both are batshit religions that promote death as a penalty for stupid shit, and view the worship of a tyrannical genocidal "god" as so good.

Muhammad may, or may not, have been a pedophile who was also a soldier. I don't know. Do I look like I was alive back then?

To say that Christianity is better than Islam is stupid. Both are dumbshit religions created by desert-dwelling idiots who didn't know what a germ was.

[hatzel]

I'm surprised your not banned yet. Why do you troll in OI pretending to be Jewish? You should reveal your true identity

Indeed, you got me. To steal and then modify and then regurgitate a Woody Allen joke: I'm a reform Jew. A very reform Jew. A Nazi.


Europeans [...] are decreasing genuinely.


The population growth is currently at 0.098%So the population isn't decreasing, then, is it? Quite the opposite, in fact...:closedeyes:

[Inquisitive Lurker]

Believe in me, or my genocidal father, who is also me, will send you to hell to suffer an eternity of fiery torture. Even if you did good you're whole life.

This is actually not in the gospels. There are two references to a trashpit were criminals' bodies were dumped (Gehenna), and that's it. In Revelations (the trippiest book of the Bible), there is one reference to the dragon and his followers being cast into a pit of fire.

Hell is not Biblical.

Nor is Jesus's divinity. Son of Man not Son of God.

Both are products of the Church (4th century).

[Inquisitive Lurker]

So the population isn't decreasing, then, is it? Quite the opposite, in fact...
As I said, which you cut, within 50 years birth and death rates will reach parity.

EDIT: In fact, I just double checked, and I'm wrong. IT ALREADY HAS HAPPENED!

Birth rate: 9.83 births/1,000 population (2010 est.)
Death rate: 10.33 deaths/1,000 population (July 2010 est.)

So HA! They are decreasing! The statistical increase is due to immigration! (1.48 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2010 est.))

Europeans are disappearing. FACT.

SECOND EDIT: Gawd an 11th person has voted for Wotanism! Can't we find them and ban them?

[Astarte]

In Revelations (the trippiest book of the Bible), there is one reference to the dragon and his followers being cast into a pit of fire.


Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

is this the instance you are thinking of?

[agnixie]

Indeed, you got me. To steal and then modify and then regurgitate a Woody Allen joke: I'm a reform Jew. A very reform Jew. A Nazi.


Thinking of Woody Allen, I heard there was a time where this sort of attack in NYC would lead to political debates going from english to yiddish. ;)

[Die Rote Fahne]

This is actually not in the gospels. There are two references to a trashpit were criminals' bodies were dumped (Gehenna), and that's it. In Revelations (the trippiest book of the Bible), there is one reference to the dragon and his followers being cast into a pit of fire.

Hell is not Biblical.

Nor is Jesus's divinity. Son of Man not Son of God.

Both are products of the Church (4th century).

Okay.... Regardless, batshit religion is still batshit.

[hatzel]

thinking of woody allen, i heard there was a time where this sort of attack in nyc would lead to political debates going from english to yiddish. ;)

נו גראפיק איז א וואנזיניק שמוק, איך ווייס ניט פאר וווס איך סטארע מעך; ס'גייב זעך ניט מיט אים צי דעבאטירן, ס'יז טאקע א צעפריענדיקער וויכוח

:)

[Inquisitive Lurker]

נו גראפיק איז א וואנזיניק שמוק, איך ווייס ניט פאר וווס איך סטארע מעך; ס'גייב זעך ניט מיט אים צי דעבאטירן, ס'יז טאקע א צעפריענדיקער וויכוח

:)
Well Graphic iz a Wanezinik schmuck, how nit Weiss Peer Wes how Staara crushed; S Gabe nit mit im Azaaach fleet Edabaterne and S. Q Taaka a Cafriaandeyakar debate

Google translate leaves much to be desired.


Hey Rabbi, I notice you didn't respond to my post showing that Europeans are dying out at this very instant.

[hatzel]

Hey Rabbi, I notice you didn't respond to my post showing that Europeans are dying out at this very instant.

My issue was more with the contradiction inherent in your statement than it was with the issue of Europeans 'dying out', which doesn't interest me in the slightest. Also, some of us don't think you have to be white indigenous Aryan whatever to be a European. Europeans will only 'die out' when nobody lives in Europe. That's not going to happen any time soon.

[Inquisitive Lurker]

My issue was more with the contradiction inherent in your statement than it was with the issue of Europeans 'dying out', which doesn't interest me in the slightest. Also, some of us don't think you have to be white indigenous Aryan whatever to be a European. Europeans will only 'die out' when nobody lives in Europe. That's not going to happen any time soon.

You've got a negative growth rate of Europeans. You have a positive growth rate of immigrants. Extend each to infinity and Europe becomes a nation of first generation immigrants.

Thought the result will be a good one, the end of nations. And culture.

[Per Levy]

You've got a negative growth rate of Europeans. You have a positive growth rate of immigrants. Extend each to infinity and Europe becomes a nation of first generation immigrants.

Thought the result will be a good one, the end of nations. And culture.

are you saying that "immigrants" have no culture? and also cant become "european"? also "europeans" will never die out. honestly posts like this i ususally see on rightwing xenophobic/anti-immigration sites.

[Inquisitive Lurker]

are you saying that "immigrants" have no culture? and also cant become "european"? also "europeans" will never die out. honestly posts like this i ususally see on rightwing xenophobic/anti-immigration sites.
I never said Europeans dying out and being replaced by immigrants was a bad thing. You're reading too much into this.

European culture dies out because there aren't people to sustain it. Instead it becomes a mishmash of all the immigrant cultures. Result, a cultureless nation like the USA.

[agnixie]

I never said Europeans dying out and being replaced by immigrants was a bad thing. You're reading too much into this.

European culture dies out because there aren't people to sustain it. Instead it becomes a mishmash of all the immigrant cultures. Result, a cultureless nation like the USA.

This is also not what demographics are saying for most of western Europe; Britain, France, Spain and Italy still have growing populations, the non-sustenance is mostly in the eastern bloc thanks to the neoliberal aftershock, with the germanic countries sort of slightly following, besides Britain (despite the wailing of the BNP, it's only about 5-8% non-white). Assuming that this means massive demographic explosion in the long term is also ignoring that it's not the first time a region has trended down to go back up, and it's about the same as assuming that some countries will always have massive growth, when demographers are now forced to dial down their previsions for the entire third world due to large drops in growth recently. The lowest estimate I've seen for Germany by 2050 is still 72 millions. That's not dying out, that's being a notch less of a massive country.

There are 750 million Europeans, not all of them are white, almost all of them are europeans - those who aren't are only there for the short term. It also pertains little to your earlier similarly erroneous statement about jewish culture.

European cultures are no more dying out than middle eastern or east asian ones (and there is no singular European culture, although it's obvious that you're american)
TL;DR: Your understanding of demographics is woeful, as is much of the rest.

[Inquisitive Lurker]

This is also not what demographics are saying for most of western Europe;
Britain, Yes, except for Scotland which is declining.

France, Yes

Spain Yes, as a good Catholic country.

and Italy No. Birth Rate 9.18 Death Rate 9.84


Assuming that this means massive demographic explosion in the long term is also ignoring that it's not the first time a region has trended down to go back upThe decline in the European population has been going down for since at least (does some mental arithmetic) 6 years.


The lowest estimate I've seen for Germany by 2050 is still 72 millions. That's not dying out, that's being a notch less of a massive country.
8.3 births per 10.92 deaths that's a SIGNIFICANT decline! And their imigration rates are so low (0.54 per 1000) that won't even make a dent!


There are 750 million EuropeansTry 492,387,344. A wee bit lower, wouldn't you say?


It also pertains little to your earlier similarly erroneous statement about jewish culture.Which I proved by showing a 10 year decline from 0.25% to 0.23%. And if we take in the good Rabbi's unsubstantiated claim of massive birth rates, that just makes the decline even more dramatic (ie. going down when it should be going up).

[agnixie]

Try 492,387,344. A wee bit lower, wouldn't you say?

Wrong: that's only the European union.

Also you only showed jews had a relative decline, and only wrt jewish religion, there are quite a few people who are atheist yet culturally jewish.

[Inquisitive Lurker]

Wrong: that's only the European union.
You believe there are 250,000,000 people in Norway (4,691,849), Switzerland (7,639,961), the former Yugoslavia (23,975,956), Belarus (9,577,552), and the Urkraine (45,134,707)? Whoops I forgot the huge population in Moldova (4,314,377). That only gets you up to 587,721,746, not 750,000,000.


Also you only showed jews had a relative decline, and only wrt jewish religion, there are quite a few people who are atheist yet culturally jewish.No, I showed that Judaism is declining. Atheists who are culturally Jewish are atheists. If you don't believe in G~d, you aren't a Jew (for further reading on the subject, see the First Commandment). You may be ethnically Hebrew though. Or an Israeli national. But the three things aren't the same (Jewish, Hebrew, Israeli). One is a religion, one is an ethnicity, one is a nationality.

[hatzel]

I never said Europeans dying out and being replaced by immigrants was a bad thing.

Europeans aren't dying out, though! Even if we take your strange idea that immigrants in Europe aren't European (awfully right-wing approach to this), the only way Europeans could 'die out' without the European continent being rendered totally empty would be for every inhabitant of Europe to be removed, to then be replaced by an entirely new population of immigrants, who I would class as European, but you wouldn't. The minute one of them has a child, born and bred in Europe, Europeans are back in business. It's only on the far-right that 'European' means 'good white untainted Aryan'


European culture dies out because there aren't people to sustain it.No. European culture develops, as it has for hundreds of thousands of years. As long as there are people in Europe, there is somebody to sustain European culture.


Instead it becomes a mishmash of all the immigrant cultures. Result, a cultureless nation like the USA.The USA has a fair deal of culture, you know. I rather like delta blues, for example, that stalwart of American culture. I'm also quite impressed by the way Americans sometimes make films, and Walt Whitman wrote a poem this one time, could you believe it?! A culture created by the intermingling of various other cultures isn't a non-culture. In fact, it's no different from every other culture that has ever existed in the history of mankind.

But still, if you want to abandon culture, be my guest! Just make sure you don't accidentally use language, or listen to music, or farm the land, or hunt, or have any form of social interaction with anybody. Are you a primitivist, per chance?


Which I proved by showing a 10 year decline from 0.25% to 0.23%. And if we take in the good Rabbi's unsubstantiated claim of massive birth rates, that just makes the decline even more dramatic (ie. going down when it should be going up).

It's not an unsubstantiated claim, though. It's a known fact that Haredi and Hasidic communities have very high birthrates (average around 6-7 children per family), and that for this reason their population doubles every 10 or so years. See Williamsburg, Stamford Hill or those communities in Israel. Here in Britain, these denominations make up around a sixth of the extant Jewish population. Three-quarters of Jewish births are of Haredi and Hasidic denominations. It doesn't take a genius to notice that this means that, year on year, the Jewish community is actually getting more and more religious, more and more orthodox, as an ever larger percentage of Britain's Jewry is made up of these Haredi and Hasidic individuals. As I said, the very high birthrates amongst what amounts to about 2 million people worldwide isn't going to make that much of an impact on the global scale when the world's population increases by about 200.000 every day. That should be obvious to just about anybody...

One thing is does throw into question, though, was the original statement this was concerning, which was the claim that religious minority communities disappear. Here in England, as is the trend elsewhere, the Haredi population doubles every 10-15 years (27.000 in 1998, around 55.000 now, compared to a total Jewish growth over the same period from about 200.000 to 275.000). Compare that to the UK population at large, which doubles every...well, if we believe the highest projections put out by that typically reliable source, the Daily Mail (snigger, sarcasm, snigger), even they say it will take half a century to increase by 50%, so what would it take to double? 70, 80 years, at least? Suggests to me that the Haredi Jewish community is growing far quicker than the UK population at large, proving that they will be occupying an ever larger slice of that hypothetical pie chart we keep talking about. Not, as you had proclaimed from the hilltops, that their slither of the pie would get progressively smaller...proof here is that Judaism as a religion, and not just liberal, reform or conservative strands, but its most orthodox extant form, is increasing rapidly. These aren't the kinds of people you can dismiss as 'atheists of Jewish heritage'. These are devout individuals who say their hundred blessings a day, and are increasing rapidly, in both absolute and relative terms...

So no, you didn't 'show that Judaism is declining'...you showed some figured to suggest that, even though the Jewish population of around 13 million is increasing in absolute numbers, it is (very slightly, actually) decreasing as a percentage of the global population. This was followed by 'oh, but all those people are just atheists now anyway', without the offer of a single statistic related to the religious make-up of the Jewish community to back up that claim...you didn't show anything. You claimed something, and you claimed it quite falsely. Unless you're going to tell me that the world's population doubles every 10-15 years, we can see that so-called 'ultra-orthodox' Judaism is not, by any demonstrable means, declining...

And nor is Europe destined to be left as a 'cultureless' wasteland because a few immigrants are coming over, fucking hell, you spout a load of crap :sleep:

[Comrade J]

They're billion+ member groups. They're not homogenous, and preferring one over the other is entirely situational. Whether I support one or the other is based on what they preach, not what they label themselves as. There are thousands of interpretations of the Bible and Quaran. I support the progressive revolutionary interpretations in both, and I stand against the reactionary interpretations of both.

This post should have just ended this thread.

[hatzel]

This post should have just ended this thread.

It would have, but we've moved on from all that now...did you hear culture is vanishing? Yeah! And it's a good thing, too! Breaking news :)

[Inquisitive Lurker]

...a lot of crap...

In 2000, there were approximately 15,307,500 Jews in the world.
In 2011, there are now 15,934,856 (some decimal error because we are dealing with such a small group, globally speaking).
If they had followed the average population growth of 1.092%, and you say they are growing MUCH faster than that, there should be 17,063,659.

Aren't numbers wonderful? Isn't math fun?

Explain that away. Where's your massive population growth? Where are your 6-7 children? Looks to me like they are all walking away from their religion, or they never existed in the first place.

I would actually love if you posted your growth figures, because then I could use them to generate another statistic: How many Jews are walking away from their religion (Your Growth Rate -> Expected Population - Actual Population = Number of Deserters)

As T approaches infinity, the non-religious win.

[Inquisitive Lurker]

It would have, but we've moved on from all that now...did you hear culture is vanishing? Yeah! And it's a good thing, too! Breaking news :)

"There is no culture except the worker's (proletariat's) culture."

Culture IS vanishing. The world is homogenizing. Ethnic, national, cultural, and religious differences are blurring. It's an effect of:
1. Global Communication
2. Global Commerce
3. Global Travel

[agnixie]

You believe there are 250,000,000 people in Norway (4,691,849), Switzerland (7,639,961), the former Yugoslavia (23,975,956), Belarus (9,577,552), and the Urkraine (45,134,707)? Whoops I forgot the huge population in Moldova (4,314,377). That only gets you up to 587,721,746, not 750,000,000.

No, I showed that Judaism is declining. Atheists who are culturally Jewish are atheists. If you don't believe in G~d, you aren't a Jew (for further reading on the subject, see the First Commandment). You may be ethnically Hebrew though. Or an Israeli national. But the three things aren't the same (Jewish, Hebrew, Israeli). One is a religion, one is an ethnicity, one is a nationality.

European Turkey, the Caucasus and European Russia.


"There is no culture except the worker's (proletariat's) culture."

Vulgar marxism. You sound like a typical citizen of the dominant culture in an imperialist state - whether Rome, America or China.


Aren't numbers wonderful? Isn't math fun?

They show that you're being a blithering idiot.

[ZeroNowhere]

"There is no culture except the worker's (proletariat's) culture."
Did anybody actually say this?

[Inquisitive Lurker]

Did anybody actually say this?

Yeah, it was either Marx or Mao, but I couldn't remember which and I don't have my Little Red Book handy to page through it. Hence why I didn't attribute it, because I had a 50% chance of getting it wrong. I'm thinking Mao though.

I remember almost everything I read, hence why my head is full of useless facts, but I forget where I read the stuff from. Made writing term papers and my thesis a *****.

[agnixie]

Yeah, it was either Marx or Mao, but I couldn't remember which and I don't have my Little Red Book handy to page through it. Hence why I didn't attribute it, because I had a 50% chance of getting it wrong. I'm thinking Mao though.

Mao was a monoglot mandarin chinese. I doubt the line comes from Marx and can't find it, and my german translation is either wrong or just obscure.

[Inquisitive Lurker]

European Turkey, the Caucasus and European Russia.
Despite Turkey's candidacy for the EU, Turkey is not part of Europe, and never has been, it is part of the Near East. Ottoman Empire ring a bell? The reason it is being considered for membership is for the military positioning of the country.

Russia is not part of Europe. They are on an entirely different continental shelf, have entirely different cultures, language groups, alphabets, religions, and are practically at war with each other over gas.

The Caucasus are Eastern Asia / Near East.

[Comrade J]

It would have, but we've moved on from all that now...did you hear culture is vanishing? Yeah! And it's a good thing, too! Breaking news :)

Hahaha, no I didn't realise culture was vanishing, maybe I should read the rest of this thread later.

[agnixie]

Despite Turkey's candidacy for the EU, Turkey is not part of Europe, and never has been, it is part of the Near East. Ottoman Empire ring a bell? The reason it is being considered for membership is for the military positioning of the country.

Russia is not part of Europe. They are on an entirely different continental shelf, have entirely different cultures, language groups, alphabets, religions, and are practically at war with each other over gas.

The Caucasus are Eastern Asia / Near East.

The Ottoman Empire was an european country. Sick man of Europe ring a bell? Also Eurasia is a single plate. Russia is indo-european, orthodox christian, and uses an alphabet derived from greek. Are you sure you live in the same universe as we do?

[Inquisitive Lurker]

They show that you're being a blithering idiot.

Don't be bitter because you can't argue with numbers, logic, statistics, and basic arithmetic.

[agnixie]

Don't be bitter because you can't argue with numbers, logic, statistics, and basic arithmetic.

Your numbers showed an increase. A relative decrease is not a decline, it just means everyone else grew faster. It's not a decrease. Thus you're still an idiot, as also evidenced by your point about Russia, and your ignorance of the fact that until the Balkan wars, the core of the ottoman empire was Rumelia, i.e. the eastern Balkans.

France and Germany didn't stop being in Europe just because they went to war.

[Inquisitive Lurker]

The Ottoman Empire was an european country.

700 years says otherwise.


Also Eurasia is a single plate.
Sub-plates. Were do you think those mountains come from?


orthodox christian
The religion of the East, as opposed to the West.

[agnixie]

700 years says otherwise.
700 years of what? The Ottoman Empire was a stable french ally for most of these 700 years with longstanding diplomatic relationships with the rest of Europe. Most of these 700 years, the core of the empire was the Balkans, and the capital was at either Edirne or Istanbul.
You fail at these 700 years of history.



Sub-plates. Were do you think those mountains come from?

Europe is not a singular subplate, so your point fails.



The religion of the East, as opposed to the West.
Tell that to the Balkan christians.

[Inquisitive Lurker]

Your numbers showed an increase. A relative decrease is not a decline, it just means everyone else grew faster. It's not a decrease.

According to the good Rabbi, the Jewish population increases massively faster than the global average (see remarks about 6-7 children and 10 year doubling times).

[agnixie]

According to the good Rabbi, the Jewish population increases massively faster than the global average (see remarks about 6-7 children and 10 year doubling times).

So basically you're moving the goalposts, wrong about your moved goalposts, and claiming victory while showing data that says your moved goalposts are wrong.

[Inquisitive Lurker]

Europe is not a singular subplate, so your point fails.

The Asiatic Plate has 4 sub-plates. India, China, Mongolia, and Russia. The eastern cutoff point is the Ural mountains.

[agnixie]

The Asiatic Plate has 4 sub-plates. India, China, Mongolia, and Russia. The eastern cutoff point is the Ural mountains.

Source. Also 80% of Russia's population lives west of the Urals. For the rest you're still wrong.

[Inquisitive Lurker]

So basically you're moving the goalposts, wrong about your moved goalposts, and claiming victory while showing data that says your moved goalposts are wrong.

If a 17 million population has 1,400,000 new members becoming non-Jewish and only 600,000 becoming Jewish, which way is the religion heading? That means a Jewish baby has a 70% chance of leaving the religion, or not getting into it in the first place.

And the 17 million number is a low ball. By the good Rabbi's estimates, it should be closer to 20 or 30 million, which would make my percentages even more exciting.

[Inquisitive Lurker]

Source. Also 80% of Russia's population lives west of the Urals. For the rest you're still wrong.

Cite and I'll capitulate.

(Though still, politically they are diametrically opposed to the EU)

[agnixie]

Cite and I'll capitulate.

(Though still, politically they are diametrically opposed to the EU)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Russia

Wikipedia says 78%, I'm not really in the mood to run the numbers.
Being in political opposition to the EU has fuck all to do with being in Europe. By this argument Morocco is not on the african continent

[Inquisitive Lurker]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Russia

Wikipedia says 78%, I'm not really in the mood to run the numbers.
Being in political opposition to the EU has fuck all to do with being in Europe. By this argument Morocco is not on the african continent

I see the number, and acknowledge them, but also point out that it says 75% of the land mass is in Asia.

So it depends how you define it.

[Inquisitive Lurker]

Being in political opposition to the EU has fuck all to do with being in Europe.

Europe is (becoming) a political entity. It has it's own currency, it's own capital, interdependent economies, and open borders. Soon Iceland will be a member, and I think you'll agree that they are not on the continent.

For that matter neither is Ireland and the United Kingdom.

[agnixie]

Europe is (becoming) a political entity. It has it's own currency, it's own capital, interdependent economies, and open borders. Soon Iceland will be a member, and I think you'll agree that they are not on the continent.

For that matter neither is Ireland and the United Kingdom.

Ireland and the United Kingdom are, in fact, on the same continental mass. The channel is extremely shallow and was, until the holocene, a plain. Splendid isolation is also a myth. Britain was neither splendid, nor isolated.

[hatzel]

In 2000, there were approximately 15,307,500 Jews in the world.

I'd debate that. That's about 2.5 million more than the total number at that time by our own count...


In 2011, there are now 15,934,856That's too high, too. We believe it's currently about 13-13,5 million...still, it's totally irrelevant, because you're not paying any attention to what I'm saying. Let's recap, and maybe you'll bother to read this time:

Haredi and Hasidic Jews. Haredi...and Hasidic...these are the very religious groups that some call 'ultra-orthodox'. These guys:

http://www.zanefamily.com/israel/hasidic.jpg

...not these guys:

http://superman-t-shirt.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/ben-stiller-.jpg

I am talking exclusively about the former group, because we're talking about religions here, and these people are clearly religious. They, and they alone, as I've said about a billion times, have a very high growth rate, as I said, doubling every 10-15 years. They currently constitute a minority of world Jewry. However, with their high growth rate, they are becoming a larger and larger proportion of the Jewish population. If current trends continue, they'll be the majority of Jews here in Britain within about 30 years. That is to say, the Jewish community is, by proportion, becoming increasingly orthodox. Liberal denominations are decreasing in size, in part due to assimilation, in part due to secularisation, in part due to low birth-rates. The losses over there are more than compensated for by the every growing religious groups. Let's do it like this:

If the total number of Jews is increasing, albeit slowly, and the percentage of the total Jewish population who are 'ultra-orthodox' is growing rapidly, it is obvious that these very religious communities are not, as you argue, on the verge of disappearing. They are growing. As they grow, there will be two effects. The first is that the Jewish community will become increasingly religious, as a whole. Very orthodox denominations are growing whilst more liberal ones are shrinking, and secular Jews are being assimilated. The second effect will be that the Jewish population will grow increasingly quickly, as there are more and more of these people have untold numbers of kids. Neither of these suggest to me that this minority religion is dying out, sorry...

Now, once again, show me how exactly religious minorities are disappearing, which was your claim, when this one is clearly doubling every 10-15 years. Don't start saying 'oh, but look, there are far fewer secular Jews!' Irrelevant. We're talking about religious minorities here.

(Oh, and also you have literally no idea what the word 'culture' even means...or the word 'Europe'...or any word, it seems...)

[Inquisitive Lurker]

I'd debate that. That's about 2.5 million more than the total number at that time by our own count...

That's too high, too. We believe it's currently about 13-13,5 million.

My numbers come from an unbiased source with no reason to inflate or deflate the numbers. Accuracy is their watchword.

In the United States alone, you have 5,324,945 Jews. In Israel you have 5,709,412 Jews. In Europe as a whole you have approximately a third of the global Jewish population, roughly another 5,000,000 (I'd have to break down 30 countries to give you the exact figure). Surely your own knowledge of where Your People are should tell you that.

So the numbers are spot on. The fact that your "internal" numbers don't accurately reflect the global reality is in itself interesting. Is there a Judaic census? If so, ask those that identify themselves as Jews if they still believe in G~d (see early posts [not just by me] about culturally Jewish atheists).

You may be able to make some (sourceless) claims about sects of Judaism, minority sects globally, but you can't deny my interesting figure about the 1,400,000 deserting Jews.

Actually I need to revise that, because you see I used the global growth rate, not the growth rates for countries with Jewish populations of note.

In 2000, there were approximately 15,307,500 Jews in the world.
In 2011, there are now 15,934,856.
If they had followed the average population growth of the US, Israel, and Europe, of 0.88%, and you say that some sects are growing MUCH faster than that, there should be 16,856,216.

That means of the 1,548,716 new Jews in the last 11 years, 627,356 became or remained Jewish, and 921,360 left or never became Jewish. The current generation of Judaism is losing it's new flock at a rate of 60%. You'd have to have 5 kids just to keep the numbers up.

Now, as I asked before, if you have better figures (sourceable) as to the growth rate of global Jewry, I'd love to get my hands on them and run the numbers, because you say the birth rates, at least in certain sects, are higher than average. What information can you give me about birth rates in mainstream Judaism? If you know that your sects are higher, you must know what the other sects are to make the comparison, unless you are just making up that part about "Liberal denominations are decreasing in size ... in part due to low birth-rates." You must know what those birth rates are. Sources, baby, sources! At best, they should have an average birth rate, unless there is something about being a reformed Jew that makes you want to have less children (please cite that doctrine).

And then if you'd like to address the issue of Jewish Atheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_atheism), I'd be very interested in reading that, as it would reduce the numbers even further. Perhaps that explains the discrepancies between your numbers and mine. All those wrongly counted atheists.



P.S. Ever watched "The Hebrew Hammer (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0317640/)"?


P.P.S. I won't be able to respond to any posts until tomorrow. I have a 3 hour evening meeting at the local anarchist collective. A bit more important. We may be getting a new landlord and that means a hike in rents, which we barely make as is. After all, we're not Capitalists.

[RedRaptor]

So you chose to include Judaism because it is "between" Christianity and Islam. (?):confused:

This thread is worthless.


The original question is simple. It goes along with todays xenophobia in christians. As atheists, the question is which one do you sympathise with or which is more useful. I added more options because some people will want more options. Then I figured people could discuss peacefully.

I did not expect an internet duchbag to come along and make a problem out of such a simple thing.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I generally respect all religions until they start trying to shove their beliefs down my throat. If I had to choose one, I would choose Islam though. Christian beliefs are essentially hypocritical and inconsistent(try explaining the trinity to a non-christian, lmao) while Islamic beliefs are mostly consistent although often misinterpreted. I could be a bit biased though, having been a Muslim myself. :/