Original Greeks were Black

[RedRaptor]

Is it possible the original Greeks were Black. I ran into this information but I dont have the posts to link. It would sure shut up those racists over at stormfront. Anyone?

[Tim Finnegan]

Is it possible the original Greeks were Black.
Not likely. The populations of most of Eurasia and North Africa were pretty constant between the Neolithic and Early Modern periods, with population migrations being limited in both distance and volume, and rarely took the form of the wholesale displacements imagined by earlier scholars. That makes it unlikely that there would have been a black population in mainland Europe prior to the Hellenic period, because its appearance and disappearance would be so dramatic as to be contrary to established trends of ancient population migration.


It would sure shut up those racists over at stormfront.
Given that these are the type of people who are fully convinced that the Pyramids were built by a few lost Swedes, I don't think it would do much good. They already reject the academic consensus on such issues, so why would some fringe Afrocentrism change their minds?

[F9]

damn, i hoped that i would get some proof in here.That would piss a lot people that i know:lol:

[PhoenixAsh]

Probably not. Depending on how long you want to go back....and it goes a long, long way back.

Archeo-genetics place at least part of the population as far back as the 5th millenium as originating from the Caspian area. Though there have been settlements and groups long, long before that period.


HOWEVER....;)


A genetic study done several years ago do show a large relationship factor with Etheopian cultures dating back centuries...and less of a genetic relationship with other Aegean cultures. If this is the case however and the study is legit it may very well have been through Assyrian migration from Egypt.



Just one important side note. I have heard of the study and its conclusions. I have not read it, nor am I fully aware if there is anything in it that may suggest otherwise. If you are really interested in the matter you may want to look further into HLA gene heritage for Macedonia and Greece.

[Queercommie Girl]

Nope, one should not fight Eurocentrism with Afrocentrism.

Why does it matter what "race" a particular people was anyway?

The way to fight racism is to destroy the entire institution and ideology of racism, not by out-flanking or "out-racisting" the racists. Otherwise one is simply implicitly assuming that there is some truth in the ideological approach of the racists. (Such as the "race" that created the most "civilisation" in antiquity must be the "best race" or some other BS like that)

I mean even if it really is true that the "white race" created all the ancient civilisations in the world, including China, it still doesn't imply that white people are intrinsically superior...

The whole notion of measuring "racial superiority" through arguing "who created the most civilisation" or "who was the most militarily powerful" is nothing more than a ridiculous racial chauvinist dick-stroking contest.

[PhoenixAsh]

well...it matters for historic accuracy.

Genetic origins is something which is not necessarilly the same as race. Its very existence of HLA gene heritage is pretty much the death bell for race as something other than social construct showing our genetic make up is simply an accumulation of different groups and societies instead of something which is and can be construed as a "pure lineage" put that sidelong to the facts that genes in humans are pretty much not showing anything consistent...means there is not rational and scientific approach to maintaining the social construct nor in calling one group of people superior to another.

As an argument against nazi's its pretty much useless...seeing as they are more emotionally attached to maintaining the construct of superiority than rational or scientific.

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

About 25 years ago a British scholar by the name of Martin Bernal wrote a series of books entitled "Black Athena" on the topic of the cultural roots of Greek civilization in Africa. His point was that European scholars had obfuscated these roots, at least after the 18th century.(Even Plato argues that writing is an Egyptian invention).

Things being what they are, various scholars took Bernal's ideas and ran with them. So you have the Sheikh Anta Diop crowd who argue that the Egyptians were racially black (which is partially true), those who argue that the Egyptians were culturally African (again, there are some nice influences in either direction), those who are terrified at the idea that European culture might be in any way African or Semitic (Nazis, among others), etc.

There's a pretty good video called "The Search for Black Athena," which has any number of scholars of various persuasion discussing this - including Edward Said.

[tachosomoza]

Jeezus was black :D

But seriously, we've got bigger issues to tackle than what race people who lived eons ago may have been.

[B0LSHEVIK]

Well if you're asking were there any blacks in Greece, then thats a resounding yes. The ancient world communicated, Athens with lower Egypt, Alexandria, Babylon, etc.

One thing that is questionable however is whether the Greeks actually developed most of their attributed theories or did they copy them from other civilizations?

I think they copied some of them btw.

[Delenda Carthago]

damn, i hoped that i would get some proof in here.That would piss a lot people that i know:lol:
Think about going to a golden dawn member like "hey, wassup my nigga"?:laugh:

mass nazi suicides.:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[agnixie]

Well if you're asking were there any blacks in Greece, then thats a resounding yes. The ancient world communicated, Athens with lower Egypt, Alexandria, Babylon, etc.

One thing that is questionable however is whether the Greeks actually developed most of their attributed theories or did they copy them from other civilizations?

I think they copied some of them btw.

That's assuming any of these civilizations were, in any way, monolithic. Which none were. A lot has been attirbuted to "the greeks", "the phoenicians", "the mesopotamians", "the Egyptians" in a ridiculous way. Being able to turn the tables on the hellenists (who tend to be a pain in the ass in archaeology for attributing anything and everything to the greeks, and then insisting that everyone from Rome and Carthage to Babylon and, hey, why not even Persia and Axum, just copied them) is sweet.

Also, Alexandria was founded by a greek conqueror.

[B0LSHEVIK]

That's assuming any of these civilizations were, in any way, monolithic. Which none were. A lot has been attirbuted to "the greeks", "the phoenicians", "the mesopotamians", "the Egyptians" in a ridiculous way. Being able to turn the tables on the hellenists (who tend to be a pain in the ass in archaeology for attributing anything and everything to the greeks, and then insisting that everyone from Rome and Carthage to Babylon and, hey, why not even Persia and Axum, just copied them) is sweet.

Also, Alexandria was founded by a greek conqueror.

Ummm, you restated what I said, though far better understanding of history, if I may say.

But yeah, in agreement, the West tends to think that they shited gold thousands of years ago.

[B0LSHEVIK]

Wait so what are you saying? That the Greeks did copy, or didnt copy their surrounding civilizations? Which by the way, is fine. All societies copy the good ideas of other societies.

Im just asking for clarification.

[agnixie]

Wait so what are you saying? That the Greeks did copy, or didnt copy their surrounding civilizations? Which by the way, is fine. All societies copy the good ideas of other societies.

Im just asking for clarification.

I'm saying that everyone copied everyone and that much of what is attributed to "the greeks" came from localized groups from one city or another, or a guild or another, or a school or another, and that monolithic views of civilizations are basically romantic nationalism along with some whig history seeping in our view of the past.

Also, the west tends to not so much think it shat gold as it tends to think Greece did and to have a massive inferiority complex for the greeks and the graeco-romans.

[B0LSHEVIK]

I'm saying that everyone copied everyone and that much of what is attributed to "the greeks" came from localized groups from one city or another, or a guild or another, or a school or another, and that monolithic views of civilizations are basically romantic nationalism along with some whig history seeping in our view of the past.

Oh ok were on the same boat then.

Funny though that those who push the 'Greek' hegemony IS THE WEST, huh?

[B0LSHEVIK]

Wait, did Alexander found Alexandria? Or did he simply change the name of an existing city that later constituted the 'african' quarter of Alexandria?

[agnixie]

Wait, did Alexander found Alexandria? Or did he simply change the name of an existing city that later constituted the 'african' quarter of Alexandria?

He founded it. Most of the building projects we identify as Alexandria were actually built by the Lagid dynasty, not by him, either. The great library, including the Serapeum, was ordered by Ptolemy III, for one.
And the population of Egypt was mixed and had little to no hand in the cultures of west africa except as a distant trading partner (it did have tremendous influences on east Africa though, as well as Europe and the middle east, and it drew a lot of influences north and south), not some sort of "root of all africanness" - Sheik Anta Diop is a pain in the ass who basically did with Egypt what the west did with Greece. It's the same bullshit inferiority complex because look there's this civilization everyone loves, let's claim it. Like Britain loves to bask in "roman" glory when the english were german invaders of barely romanized celtic countries, i.e. "barbarians" anyway. It's romantic nationalist mythology.

[Rooster]

Was the source for this perhaps http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Athena ?

[B0LSHEVIK]

He founded it. Most of the building projects we identify as Alexandria were actually built by the Lagid dynasty, not by him, either. The great library, including the Serapeum, was ordered by Ptolemy III, for one.
And the population of Egypt was mixed and had little to no hand in the cultures of west africa except as a distant trading partner (it did have tremendous influences on east Africa though, as well as Europe and the middle east, and it drew a lot of influences north and south), not some sort of "root of all africanness" - Sheik Anta Diop is a pain in the ass who basically did with Egypt what the west did with Greece. It's the same bullshit inferiority complex because look there's this civilization everyone loves, let's claim it. Like Britain loves to bask in "roman" glory when the english were german invaders of barely romanized celtic countries, i.e. "barbarians" anyway. It's romantic nationalist mythology.


Im asking because of this wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandria#History

Which says Alexandria was founded over a city named Rhakotis. I didnt know this myself until I quickly glanced at Alexandria's wiki, hence my question.

[agnixie]

Im asking because of this wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandria#History

Which says Alexandria was founded over a city named Rhakotis. I didnt know this myself until I quickly glanced at Alexandria's wiki, hence my question.

Ancient cities tend to disappear and reappear based on power centers, though. It's possible there was a village there, but you often get cities, especially in the middle east, which will be one generation some king's great capital, and the next a small trading town. OTOH, cities are pretty predictable in that they tend to show up at certain good spots on rivers, except when some major state decides to place them counter-intuitively or there's just no river along the way on a major trade route.

That said, yeah, it's possible, I just meant "what we think of as Alexandria" came from Ptolemy III's projects.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

"If you know the history of the whole concept of whiteness—if you know the history of the whole concept of the white race, where it came from and for what reason—you know that it was a trick, and it’s worked brilliantly. You see, prior to the mid to late 1600s, in the colonies of what would become the United States, there was no such thing as the white race. Those of us of European descent did not refer to ourselves by that term really ever before then." - Tim Wise, "The Pathology of Privilege