Why should society be equal?

[Trigonometry]

I used to be like, "classless society fuck yeah!"

But I've lost my touch, on other boards where I've seen many American soldiers in Afghanistan going 'you should be thankful of me protecting American rights!' like tough guys when fighting barely armed militias

Overly zealous patriots that have that whole 'our generation is so pussy and weak, we should rush to sign up for war like WWI'

or those closet racist bigots who 'righteously defend the right of speech' of someones racist stupidity

Really it makes me question it all? why do we fight for the rights of such stupid base beings that make up the proletariat? isn't it the cause of nature that such putrid genes should be but slaves? Why do we struggle for 'their' rights? The sole purpose of their existence is to work animals, fed like animals, fuck other animals, give birth to the same lowly beings that will deserve the yoke of exploitation until they die.

edit: I don't mean industry owners, I'm talking about your average joe who works 9-5

[Robocommie]

This is why misanthropy is counter-revolutionary and should be strongly discouraged.

[CommunityBeliever]

why do we fight for the rights of such stupid base beings that make up the proletariat?The imperialists, the fascists, and the pigs do not make up the proletariat.


The sole purpose of their existence is to work animals, fed like animals, fuck other animals, give birth to the same lowly beings that will deserve the yoke of exploitation until they die.Humans are not animals, we are intelligent, and we created various technologies: computers, artificial intelligence, robots, spacecraft, airplanes and many other great wonders.

[Bright Banana Beard]

how can you be sure of their sole purpose? What make you think you are right and correct of their sole purpose? What if they didn't have sole purpose?

[Johnny Kerosene]

I used to be like, "classless society fuck yeah!"

But I've lost my touch, on other boards where I've seen many American soldiers in Afghanistan going 'you should be thankful of me protecting American rights!' like tough guys when fighting barely armed militias


"You should be thankful to me for fighting for equality." You seem to be coming from the same angle as those soldiers you're complaining about.

[Robocommie]

If you think the proletariat is a bunch of rutting animal scum, it's pretty obvious you're not amongst them. If you find yourself wondering why you're wasting your time fighting for "them" then you probably shouldn't be bothering.

[khad]

Well, I assume that plenty of those, when the revolution comes, will have to be dealt with as counterrevolutionary insurgents.

That's just the plain hard truth. Look at what the Spanish Anarchists did to those fascist priests.

[Broletariat]

I think a key point to be made is that, those people you detest behave that way BECAUSE of Capitalism. Ruling ideas of any given epoch are the ideas of the ruling class and all that jazz.

[Nolan]

Well actually it was the fascists that killed a lot of priests.

[Fat Cat Killer]

I used to be like, "classless society fuck yeah!"

But I've lost my touch, on other boards where I've seen many American soldiers in Afghanistan going 'you should be thankful of me protecting American rights!' like tough guys when fighting barely armed militias

Overly zealous patriots that have that whole 'our generation is so pussy and weak, we should rush to sign up for war like WWI'

or those closet racist bigots who 'righteously defend the right of speech' of someones racist stupidity

Really it makes me question it all? why do we fight for the rights of such stupid base beings that make up the proletariat? isn't it the cause of nature that such putrid genes should be but slaves? Why do we struggle for 'their' rights? The sole purpose of their existence is to work animals, fed like animals, fuck other animals, give birth to the same lowly beings that will deserve the yoke of exploitation until they die.


No one has the right to free speech or to practice any religion they want.

Worshiping fairy-tales has led to the death and oppression of hundreds of millions of people since civilization began.

Its up to communists to physically destroy oppressive ideology's and religions for the good of our planet and race.

[Broletariat]

No one has the right to free speech or to practice any religion they want.

Worshiping fairy-tales has led to the death and oppression of hundreds of millions of people since civilization began.

Its up to communists to physically destroy oppressive ideology's and religions for the good of our planet and race.


I'll agree to the first and the second if only because "rights" is a silly term anyway. But I think people should be able to practice what religion they want so long as it's not institutionalised or anything. Religion should be a personal matter if it exists at all.

[$lim_$weezy]

People should be treated equally regardless of things such as intelligence, ethnicity, etc. Whatever you think of people's opinions, those opinions do not change their rights. One's stomach is no smaller simply because he is an over-zealous patriot, thus his right to well-being is unchanged. What one considers a right should by no means be altered by the behavior of the people it is applied to, or else it is really not so fundamental as to be called a right!

Also, as others have said, many of these attitudes you find so repugnant arose because of material conditions. Do you not think people can change?

[Dunk]

At the risk of seeming ridiculous, let me say that the true revolutionary is guided by a great feeling of love. It is impossible to think of a genuine revolutionary lacking this quality.

:che:

[Trigonometry]

"You should be thankful to me for fighting for equality." You seem to be coming from the same angle as those soldiers you're complaining about.

The difference here being the soldiers aren't actually for the rights of the proletariat, where as a struggle for classless society is; the proletariat is not only too stupid however to see this but also goes out of their way to attack that which helps them to defend their masters.

That and I'm not asking for thanks, I'm saying:

If these proletariats are too inherently base to see their obvious interests, isn't it justified that they are deserving of a place of inferiority/exploitation by the capitalists who obviously do see their interests clearly due to superior intelligence
I know it may seem 'wrong' in a moral way, but seeing as a communist does not subscribe to judeo-christian morality; the morality aspect is irrelevant.

Furthermore, they in their rightwing beliefs chose their yoke of slavery, isn't almost patronising of us to say they don't know better
Do you see what I mean?


If you think the proletariat is a bunch of rutting animal scum, it's pretty obvious you're not amongst them. If you find yourself wondering why you're wasting your time fighting for "them" then you probably shouldn't be bothering.
Read above

[Pretty Flaco]

Fighting for a classless society is the fight to improve ourselves. I grow up seeing my family and friends stupid and getting bent economically, fuck that shit. We can destroy poverty and ignorance but first that requires a higher level of equal oportunity; socialism.

Right now ignorance is rampant but it doesn't always have to exist. I strongly believe in the ability of the humans to evolve socially and intellectually, that is in a humanistic manor.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I somewhat agree with what you're saying, in that I don't think there's much room in the communist project for morality. My endorsement of the communist project has nothing to do with morality. A relatively tiny number of people have a bunch of resources that the toiling masses want and will go to the mat with their class enemies to get (in small settings like strikes over wages, or in large settings like revolutions). The communist project for me is very selfish: I want a better life for myself, without alienation and (to the greatest extent possible) authoritarian rule over my life. I don't think that communism is the result of a class that no longer sees capitalism as giving them an acceptable life...there's nothing "moral" about how it comes about. It's not altruism that drives class conflict; it's the fundamental antagonism between divergent class interests.

And you make it sound like the working class is just a continually submissive element that needs our help to correct some moral wrong. This is not true at all, I think. The working class has enormous power. In fact, a revolution of the working class could be described as a "might makes right" situation, the very opposite of a moral crusade. It's just that workers don't collectively realize this power except during certain periods of heightened class struggle. And finally, I think that the notion of "isn't it justified that they are deserving of a place of inferiority/exploitation by the capitalists who obviously do see their interests clearly due to superior intelligence" is not right. Most capitalists are about as "class conscious" as members of the working class are, i.e. not at all. They're far more worried about undercutting their competitors.

[$lim_$weezy]

You know what you just said? That the way things are is justified simply because it is the way things are (unless you are assuming the impossibility of change, which is absurd). It is antithetical to communism.

Proletarians have to be convinced of an idea the same as anyone else. Because the majority of the proletariat has not accepted communism does not mean they are "inherently base" (your use of the word "inherent" is startling). In the event that the proletariat takes up communism, the world will be changed for the better. Is that not worth fighting for?

[Trigonometry]

@Redification, if it were that case of course it would be fighting for! But to no avail have people been taught to look out for their own interests yet they are incapable of seeing something as straight forward as looking out for their own interests; its as if we are selling a religion of our own at times.


I somewhat agree with what you're saying, in that I don't think there's much room in the communist project for morality. My endorsement of the communist project has nothing to do with morality. A relatively tiny number of people have a bunch of resources that the toiling masses want and will go to the mat with their class enemies to get (in small settings like strikes over wages, or in large settings like revolutions). The communist project for me is very selfish: I want a better life for myself, without alienation and (to the greatest extent possible) authoritarian rule over my life. I don't think that communism is the result of a class that no longer sees capitalism as giving them an acceptable life...there's nothing "moral" about how it comes about. It's not altruism that drives class conflict; it's the fundamental antagonism between divergent class interests.

And you make it sound like the working class is just a continually submissive element that needs our help to correct some moral wrong. This is not true at all, I think. The working class has enormous power. In fact, a revolution of the working class could be described as a "might makes right" situation, the very opposite of a moral crusade. It's just that workers don't collectively realize this power except during certain periods of heightened class struggle. And finally, I think that the notion of "isn't it justified that they are deserving of a place of inferiority/exploitation by the capitalists who obviously do see their interests clearly due to superior intelligence" is not right. Most capitalists are about as "class conscious" as members of the working class are, i.e. not at all. They're far more worried about undercutting their competitors.

This is in essence what I am talking about, but if only the workers thought for themselves rather than USA vs China

however you are speaking of a spontaneous moment of awareness that suddenly brings about class conscious to the working class, I simply do not see this happening - which is brought on by conversing with your average working class man
In a similar idea to Winston Churchil's remark about the greatest argument against democracy is a 5 minute conversation with the voter; I'm saying in a 5 minute conversation with your average worker it reveals to me how thoroughly ignorant they are and in fact how rightwing/nationalistic they typically are
I suppose this goes back to the debate of whether class consciousness will could be spontaneous or whether it should be taught by aware revolutionaries to the unaware workers - of which I am now saying 'why teach a bunch of ignoramus' isn't it born out of natural class antagonism as demonstrated by capitalism that the rich class conscious will trample on the unconscious working class - why try to change this status quo that is of a result of natural causes/powers
On the otherhand I am a skeptic of spontaneous class consciousness, it sounds to much like a return of the Messiah for me.

[tachosomoza]

Saying that anyone is "inherently" anything is a obvious sign of a fucked up or seriously confused mind.

[Pretty Flaco]

Saying that anyone is "inherently" anything is a obvious sign of a fucked up or seriously confused mind.

I think it's more of a lack of understanding to how opinions or ideologies are formed.

[$lim_$weezy]

Why try to change the status quo? Why try to change what is the result of natural causes/powers? Seriously, dude?

What exactly is "natural" here? These people have their opinions because they are exposed to them and take them up as their own. How are they exposed to these opinions? It is most often through social relations. It is "natural" in the sense that it happens, yes, but communism is not an "unnatural" idea, going by this. Are capitalists and nationalists and their ideologies "natural" occurrences, according to you, but communists are somehow "unnatural" and they should simply not fight capitalists and nationalists because of this?

Basically, these opinions came about through the same actions you are refusing to allow communism.

THAT is why we should fight to change what is "natural".

[Os Cangaceiros]

This is in essence what I am talking about, but if only the workers thought for themselves rather than USA vs China

however you are speaking of a spontaneous moment of awareness that suddenly brings about class conscious to the working class, I simply do not see this happening - which is brought on by conversing with your average working class man
In a similar idea to Winston Churchil's remark about the greatest argument against democracy is a 5 minute conversation with the voter; I'm saying in a 5 minute conversation with your average worker it reveals to me how thoroughly ignorant they are and in fact how rightwing/nationalistic they typically are
I suppose this goes back to the debate of whether class consciousness will could be spontaneous or whether it should be taught by aware revolutionaries to the unaware workers - of which I am now saying 'why teach a bunch of ignoramus' isn't it born out of natural class antagonism as demonstrated by capitalism that the rich class conscious will trample on the unconscious working class - why try to change this status quo that is of a result of natural causes/powers
On the otherhand I am a skeptic of spontaneous class consciousness, it sounds to much like a return of the Messiah for me.

I don't think that it's a spontaneous occurence. I think that it's bred through struggle...certainly there were incidents throughout history where average workers realized the agency they possessed when they acted as a class: the movement for the 8 hour workday in the USA, Russia 1917, Spain 1936, Hungary & Poland 1956, Italy & France 1968-1969, Iran 1979, the South African unions that helped bring about the end of Apartheid, and even what's happening currently in Egypt, on a much smaller scale than the other examples listed. I certainly don't believe that a working-class revolt would be some kind of millenarian "end of history" experience, and all of our problems would go away, but I do support the class in their struggles against capital.

I kind of like this related quote: What, then, is the purpose of utopia?
It is to cause us to advance. (Eduardo Galeano)

[Robocommie]

Because the majority of the proletariat has not accepted communism does not mean they are "inherently base" (your use of the word "inherent" is startling).

Well shit dude, in his first post he implied it was down to genetics. Genes. I have never seen a self-professed Marxist subscribe to eugenics, whatever his or her tendency.

[$lim_$weezy]

Eugenics and social darwinism! My word!
I'm ashamed at my lack of explicitly addressing that in my first post, though I focused on equality and rights regardless of it and even allowing for it. I tend to be too general, I suppose.

[jake williams]

If you want to exclude abstract moralism in the way you are, then your capitalists don't for any particular reason deserve to dominate the social product on account of their being "better people".

But I'm not sure that's the right sort of argument to make. First, it's worth pointing out that while reactionary ideas are common and widespread within the working class, other sorts of reactionary ideas are the dominant and acceptable ideas of the capitalist class. The former, whatever their ignorance and backwardness, can't possibly be held accountable for the horrors exacted by the latter. The US working class is unusually backward and reactionary for that in an advanced capitalist country (not because of genes, but because of particular circumstances), but it is still in vast majorities opposed to war, militarism and imperialism, and supportive of human and civil rights, social protections and concern for the poor. The sophisticated, pleasant-to-be-around, well-educated liberal elite is not.

At any rate, as everyone else has already pointed out, the working class is not responsible for its own situation because it doesn't control society. Communism is the real movement for workers' control of society and the abolition of the conditions that create the ugliness that exists for workers in capitalist society.

You really do seem not to want to listen to anyone at all, because most of what I'm saying has already been said and you're ignoring it. You seem to want a way out of the extremely hard work of historical class struggle, a process that works itself out over centuries, not semesters. You're welcome not to participate, but you're then as responsible as an individual worker can be for allowing the ugly status quo to continue. We're all sympathetic to your frustrations, and we all have them, but it's your choice whether or not you want to try to change the situation, or blame its victims and selfishly indulge your own false sense of superiority.

[Le Socialiste]

What? Did you expect to walk amongst the poor and downtrodden, preaching words of revolutionary merit - and suddenly all would "see" and be aware? It doesn't work that way, my friend. We live in a world that has been ravaged by Capitalism and the counterrevolutionary elements it propagates and supports. Your attitude doesn't help things, either. One cannot claim he/she wishes to help liberate the proletariat when he/she despises them.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

I used to be like, "classless society fuck yeah!"

But I've lost my touch, on other boards where I've seen many American soldiers in Afghanistan going 'you should be thankful of me protecting American rights!' like tough guys when fighting barely armed militias

Overly zealous patriots that have that whole 'our generation is so pussy and weak, we should rush to sign up for war like WWI'

or those closet racist bigots who 'righteously defend the right of speech' of someones racist stupidity

Really it makes me question it all? why do we fight for the rights of such stupid base beings that make up the proletariat? isn't it the cause of nature that such putrid genes should be but slaves? Why do we struggle for 'their' rights? The sole purpose of their existence is to work animals, fed like animals, fuck other animals, give birth to the same lowly beings that will deserve the yoke of exploitation until they die.

edit: I don't mean industry owners, I'm talking about your average joe who works 9-5

Classic Liberal "enlightened minority" bollocks. Ridiculous when you probably belong to the working class yourself.