Anti Imperialists attack police with hand grenade.

[Fat Cat Killer]

Viable hand grenade thrown at police
A viable hand grenade has been thrown at police attending the scene of a security alert in Londonderry.

It was thrown in the direction of officers from the PSNI and bomb squad as they dealt with a suspicious object in the Southway area of the Creggan on Monday evening.

The grenade did not explode and was subsequently dealt with.

Police Chief Superintendent Stephen Martin said there were children in the area at the time, adding that it was "only by sheer good fortune" that no-one was killed.

"It is only by sheer good fortune that we do not have a fatality on our hands," he said.

"I am appalled at the callous disregard and recklessness of those who threw the grenade at police, especially as a number of children were close to officers at the time of the attack."

The man who threw the grenade is believed to have made off in the direction of Kildrun Gardens, and police have appealed for anyone with information to come forward.

Meanwhile there is a possibility that more families in Rathlin Drive and Rathowen Park will need to be evacuated as the security alert continues.

A police statement thanked the local community for their "patience so far", adding: "We regret that this second device will cause further disruption. However we will do our best to bring the alerts to as swift and as safe a conclusion as possible."

SDLP Foyle MLA elect Mark H Durkan said: "This dangerous attack could have led to serious injury or loss of life for the police trying to serve our community.

"It could also have a detrimental impact on police response times to any criminal incidents, particularly in the Creggan area of our city.

"This type of activity is futile, senseless and is rejected by the majority of people in Derry. I strongly appeal to anyone with information on those responsible to pass it onto the police immediately."

http://www.u.tv/

[gorillafuck]

Police Chief Superintendent Stephen Martin said there were children in the area at the time, adding that it was "only by sheer good fortune" that no-one was killed.If there were children in the area it is definitely a good thing it didn't go off.

scum will disagree though.

[Fat Cat Killer]

If there were children in the area it is definitely a good thing it didn't go off.

scum will disagree though.

Imperialist propaganda.

[Nolan]

I like how Zeekloid just takes that at face value.

[Fat Cat Killer]

I like how Zeekloid just takes that at face value.

The trendys dont seem to realize that its a class "WAR"!

[gorillafuck]

I said "if there were children" you morons.

Though apparently FCK thinks it was still alright if there were kids around.

[Fat Cat Killer]

I said "if there were children" you morons.

Though apparently FCK thinks it was still alright if there were kids around.

Back track all you want lad. It was a legitimate action taken against the Imperialist occupation of North Eastern Ireland.

[gorillafuck]

Back track all you want lad. It was a legitimate action taken against the Imperialist occupation of North Eastern Ireland.scum.

[Johnny Kerosene]

I was all for the guy who threw the grenade until it said there were kids there. That's fucked up man. Kids have no place in any kind of combat, and killing kids with a grenade in the name of anti-imperialism could lower the public's opinion of anti-imperialism a great deal.

[Fat Cat Killer]

scum.

Who? The men and women who risk life and liberty to physically oppose the Imperialist occupation of Ireland.

Or the big fat trendy wankers who sit behind their key boards talking shit all day?

[gorillafuck]

You.

[Fat Cat Killer]

You.

How so, explain yourself.

Or are your fingers to fat to punch the keys?

[gorillafuck]

Well you think injuring cops is worth throwing grenades in proximity to children.

[Crux]

How so, explain yourself.

Or are your fingers to fat to punch the keys?
:laugh:

Yeah, throwing a grenade at the police, what a hero. Great he has a little keyboard warrior like yourself to stand up for him too. Are the civilian victims in previous attacks also "imperialist propaganda"?

[Fat Cat Killer]

Well you think injuring cops is worth throwing grenades in proximity to children.

I said that part of the article is bull shit propaganda. You called me scum.

Get off your fucking high horse.

[Fat Cat Killer]

:laugh:

Yeah, throwing a grenade at the police, what a hero. Great he has a little keyboard warrior like yourself to stand up for him too. Are the civilian victims in previous attacks also "imperialist propaganda"?

Enlighten us oh wise trendy one as to how you propose fighting the class WAR!

[Fat Cat Killer]

You fucks just neg repd the fuck outa me.

[gorillafuck]

Get off your fucking high horse.I can't I'm too fat.

I'm gonna point out that I do not neg rep just so everyone knows

[Crux]

Enlighten us oh wise trendy one as to how you propose fighting the class WAR!
By shooting pizzadelivery boys and blowing up pubs. Oh wait, that's your strategy, right?
Here's crazy idea, how about class organization and class struggle? I know it is not as trendy and exciting as your balaclava clad violence fetischists.

[Fat Cat Killer]

By shooting pizzadelivery boys and blowing up pubs. Oh wait, that's your strategy, right?
Here's crazy idea, how about class organization and class struggle? I know it is not as trendy and exciting as your balaclava clad violence fetischists.

Yeah because that works so well in the west.

The only action the Imperialists understand and fear comes through the barrel of a gun.

The trendy SP/SWP type activism is laughed at by Capitalism.

[Reznov]

The real question you have to ask yourself, in past popular Revolutions that sucessfully put in power Communist parties/movements, and looking at current day actions, is it justifiable?

Its like the saying goes, does the end justify the means?

[Fat Cat Killer]

The real question you have to ask yourself, in past popular Revolutions that sucessfully put in power Communist parties/movements, and looking at current day actions, is it justifiable?

Its like the saying goes, does the end justify the means?

"By any means necessary", that should be the slogan of the Revolutionary left.

Instead we are stuck with a bunch of pansy's.

[Johnny Kerosene]

"By any means necessary", that should be the slogan of the Revolutionary left.

Instead we are stuck with a bunch of pansy's.

If killing children because you couldn't find some other cops to throw a grenade at means you're not pansy then I am quite content being a pansy.

[Fat Cat Killer]

If killing children because you couldn't find some other cops to throw a grenade at means you're not pansy then I am quite content being a pansy.

Dont be over simplifying it, do you honestly think that a socialist revolution can happen in the west without a fight.

What do you think they are just going to roll over.

Get real.

[Johnny Kerosene]

Dont be over simplifying it, do you honestly think that a socialist revolution can happen in the west without a fight.

What do you think they are just going to roll over.

Get real.

I never said I was a pacifist. I'm all for a literal class war. However, keeping children out of the crossfire is important, not only because the capitalists could use it make the people hate revolutionaries, but also because killing children is fucked up.

[Os Cangaceiros]

How so, explain yourself.

Or are your fingers to fat to punch the keys?

fuckin' lol'd

FCK is good comic relief.

[Fat Cat Killer]

I never said I was a pacifist. I'm all for a literal class war. However, keeping children out of the crossfire is important, not only because the capitalists could use it make the people hate revolutionaries, but also because killing children is fucked up.

They just make the shit up anyway, look at Libya.

[Johnny Kerosene]

They just make the shit up anyway, look at Libya.

Exactly, they already make shit up, so we don't need to give them something real to use against us.

[Fat Cat Killer]

Exactly, they already make shit up, so we don't need to give them something real to use against us.

Here man would you take a big drink of wise the fuck up. Its a war like.

[Tim Finnegan]

Indulging in the "old divide and rule", if you'll allow me to borrow from the good Roaring Jack as quoted in my sig, is not "anti-imperialism", it's sectarian fecklessness. You may as well chuck a bomb into a CPB meeting and proclaim it a "victory for anti-revisionism".

The Troubles were a witless struggle more often than not, and anyone still fighting that tired old battle so many decades past its sell-by is an embarrassment at the very best. Grow the fuck up.

[Fat Cat Killer]

Indulging in the "old divide and rule", if you'll allow me to borrow from the good Roaring Jack as quoted in my sig, is not "anti-imperialism", it's sectarian fecklessness. You may as well chuck a bomb into a CPB meeting and proclaim it a "victory for anti-revisionism".

The Troubles were a witless struggle more often than not, and anyone still fighting that tired old battle so many decades past its sell-by is an embarrassment at the very best. Grow the fuck up.

The war in Ireland is fought between anti Imperialists and counter revolutionary Loyalists and Unionists.

To call the struggle for liberation in Ireland sectarian is to indulge in Imperialist propaganda.

You folk on here have no problem in condemning the contras and the fascists. Loyalism and Unionism runs parallel with those ideologies.

[Tim Finnegan]

The war in Ireland is fought between anti Imperialists and counter revolutionary Loyalists and Unionists.

To call the struggle for liberation in Ireland sectarian is to indulge in Imperialist propaganda.

You folk on here have no problem in condemning the contras and the fascists. Loyalism and Unionism runs parallel with those ideologies.
And you really think that government from Dublin is all that much more useful for the Northern Irish working class c.2011 than government from Westminster? That the good Mr. Adams can do much more good sitting in Leinster House than sitting in Stormont? Or do you really think that the pack of bead-rattling zealots still fighting this war are going to bring about communism?

War's over, pal. Pack up your bombs and your guns and start fighting the real fucking enemy, eh?

[Fat Cat Killer]

And you really think that government from Dublin is all that much more useful for the Northern Irish working class c.2011 than government from Westminster? That the good Mr. Adams can do much more good sitting in Leinster House than sitting in Stormont? Or do you really think that the pack of bead-rattlers still fighting this war are going to bring about communism?

War's over, pal. Pack up your bombs and your guns and start fighting the real fucking enemy, eh?

The Imperialist paramilitary police are the enemy comrade. No matter what way you look at it to establish communism in the west you are going to have to physically fight the Capitalists.

Now whos best placed to do that? Wankers who cant even get a ride, or volunteers prepared to bomb and shoot the Capitalists and Imperialists.

[Johnny Kerosene]

The Imperialist paramilitary police are the enemy comrade. No matter what way you look at it to establish communism in the west you are going to have to physically fight the Capitalists.

Now whos best placed to do that? Wankers who cant even get a ride, or volunteers prepared to bomb and shoot the Capitalists and Imperialists.

Most children aren't actively supporting capitalism and imperialism. Yes, I'm aware that the attack was not directed at the children, but there are most likely plenty of other cops around who aren't next to children.

[Fat Cat Killer]

Most children aren't actively supporting capitalism and imperialism. Yes, I'm aware that the attack was not directed at the children, but there are most likely plenty of other cops around who aren't next to children.

Who said there were children present? The Cappies.

Sure next you'll be quoting Glenn Beck.

[Crux]

Who said there were children present? The Cappies.

Sure next you'll be quoting Glenn Beck.
What about the Omagh bombing then? Propaganda? Justified?

[Fat Cat Killer]

What about the Omagh bombing then? Propaganda? Justified?

In the summer of 2000, members of MI5 and the FBI met in the Washington office of the FBI. The purpose of the meeting was to finalise the details of the stitch up of Michael McKevitt. Back in the mid 1990’s the FBI had supplied MI5 with a paid informant, David Rupert. Rupert had worked with the FBI since 1974. He was a multiple bankrupt and a career informant for 30 years, working initially with the FBI and later with MI5. During those years he was arrested for cheque and wire fraud as well as suspected white slavery having been found with a 15 year old run-away in his truck. He was never charged or convicted of any of the above. However his informant services where used extensively throughout the same period.

Rupert travelled to Ireland spying on Irish citizens from the early 1990’s. During the mid 90’s Rupert was introduced to MI5 who according to him directed and controlled his actions while in Ireland. At one point the FBI funded the lease of a Bar and adjoining caravan and camping holiday park in Co. Leitrim as a base for Rupert to spy from. Rupert claimed the park was being used by IRA sympathisers and duly sent the names, addresses and telephone numbers of all the families mainly from Belfast who had holidayed in the park to the FBI and MI5. This was at a time when Loyalist death squads were receiving information from state forces to set up and murder selected individuals on their instructions. The Garda authorities were aware of Rupert passing details on to FBI/MI5 about Irish citizens yet they chose to allow this to happen.

Throughout his stay in Ireland Rupert claimed he forwarded all of the relevant intelligence he had acquired to MI5 via encrypted e-mails. Between 1997 and 2001 Rupert posted 2166 e-mails to his paymasters in British intelligence.

According to an article in Forum Magazine:

“On 11 April 1998, Rupert dispatched his most controversial e-mail to MI5 headquarters. It was almost five months before the now infamous maroon Vauxhall Cavalier would decimate the centre of Omagh town and kill 29 people. For this reason the e-mail was all the more startling because in it Rupert informed MI5 that a dissident republican group was planning a car bomb attack in Omagh. The April car bomb attack in Omagh was eventually frustrated by Gardai south of the border. However, MI5 management knew the threat was only postponed and not extinguished. Within days MI5 e-mailed Rupert: "We disrupted the intention to use the car bomb, but maybe not for long". MI5 obviously foresaw the strong likelihood of a renewed attempt to bomb Omagh. However, MI5 now held the advantage over the would-be car bombers in that from as early as April 1998 it knew Omagh was a likely target for a dissident republican car bomb attack.

Rupert's e-mails were not the only pre-August 15th information in MI5's possession which pointed to a dissident republican attack in Omagh. A second key piece of intelligence came to light on August 4 when an anonymous phone-caller warned British intelligence of a planned dissident republican gun and bomb attack in Omagh on August 15. MI5 subsequently claimed that it dismissed this anonymous phone-warning as a rogue RUC Special Branch call. However, this was a poor attempt at distraction. The importance in all of this is that whereas Rupert provided specific details with regard to the proposed location of the planned bombing, this phone-warning supplemented his e-mail intelligence by not only confirming the location, but also providing the all important precise date of the planned attack.

However, the windfall of dissident republican intelligence did not end there. MI5 possessed a third piece of high-grade information which indicated that a car bomb attack was scheduled for mid-August. Two days before the Omagh bombing, FRU agent Kevin Fulton met with a Real IRA informant whose clothing, according to Fulton, was covered in dust particles of homemade explosives. Fulton correctly suspected that a car bomb attack was in an advanced stage of planning. Fulton provided British intelligence with the agent's name and car registration number. Yet once again this vital piece of intelligence was ignored.

But perhaps the most startling disclosure concerning MI5's foreknowledge of Omagh came during the inquest into the bombing. According to the Sunday Business Post (26/8/2001) leading British barrister Michael Mansfield QC, acting for Lawrence Rush, cross-examined several RUC witnesses. It emerged that a warning specifying the precise location of the bomb had not been passed on to local officers in time to clear the area.

"After that, we started getting threatening calls. We were told by the RUC that our name was on a death-list," Solicitor Des Doherty said.

The RUC also confirmed to Doherty that a newspaper report of a spy satellite picking out the car used to transport the bomb was correct.

Doherty said. "It is understood that when the RUC contacted the Federal Bureau of Investigation in America, they produced information from the satellite.”

This suggests that the maroon Vauxhall Cavalier contained a tracking device which enabled a US GPS satellite not only to follow the car's movements but also pinpoint its exact location on the day of the bombing. At the request of MI5, US intelligence would have monitored the car as a priority and would have conveyed this surveillance data to MI5 without delay. Yet MI5 chose not to relay this information to RUC officers on the ground on August 15. Furthermore, the presence of a tracking device on the maroon Vauxhall Cavalier indicates the involvement of an MI5 agent in the planning or the execution of the Omagh bombing, at some point between the unlawful procurement of the maroon Vauxhall Cavalier and the detonation of the explosives on August 15.

After the Omagh bombing MI5 ordered Rupert out of Ireland as a matter of urgency. An August 16 MI5 e-mail instructed Rupert to "insulate yourself from the Gardai" [MI5 to David Rupert, E-mail 305, 16-08-98]. Later that night Rupert was ordered to: "Collect tickets at Belfast City Airport...You'll be here [London] for two nights. We need to talk. It's extremely important" [MI5 to David Rupert, E-mail 329, 17-08-98]. Rupert's MI5 handlers obviously feared that their agent might be gripped as part of a massive cross-border investigation and that - if placed under sufficient pressure - Rupert might disclose the prior bomb warning he had conveyed to MI5 in early April in relation to Omagh. Indeed all of Rupert's MI5 e-mails on Omagh were subsequently withheld from Nuala O'Loan when she conducted her large-scale investigation into the intelligence background to the tragic bombing. By late August 1998 there were a number of skeletons inside MI5's cupboard.

We now know MI5 possessed four pieces of high-grade intelligence which forewarned of a dissident republican car bomb attack in Omagh on August 15. The earliest intelligence data was dated 11 April. Then came the anonymous August 4 phone-call, Kevin Fulton's August 13 intelligence report and finally the satellite monitoring of the Vauxhall Cavalier arising from a tracking device planted by a British agent involved in the Omagh bombing. Yet notwithstanding this avalanche of intelligence MI5 made no attempt to intercept the bomb How can this operational decision be rationally explained? What was the motivation of MI5 management? Did British intelligence want to protect the identity of its agent at all costs? Or was this yet another "securocrat" plot to subvert the peace?

MI5 management did not want to scupper the peace process, but it did want to protect the identity of its agent and, at the same time, drive - what it hoped would be - the final nail into physical force republicanism at an exceptionally sensitive time in the Irish peace process.”

http://michaelmckevitt.com/omagh-david-rupert-mi5-fbi-collusion.htm

[Tim Finnegan]

The Imperialist paramilitary police are the enemy comrade. No matter what way you look at it to establish communism in the west you are going to have to physically fight the Capitalists.

Now whos best placed to do that? Wankers who cant even get a ride, or volunteers prepared to bomb and shoot the Capitalists and Imperialists.
The paramilitaries aren't any more enthusiastic about your grand project of "bombing and shooting the capitalists" than the Loyalists, they just prefer a different set of capitalists, with a more local accent and a more Roman flavour to their religious prostrations. What genuine socialism there ever was in the Physical Force Republican movement has long dried up, and you're not likely to find it even among those few bands still fancying themselves "Marxist", let alone the open bead-rattlers.

A tricolour, pretty as it may be, isn't any redder than the Union Jack. Remember that.

[Fat Cat Killer]

The paramilitaries aren't any more enthusiastic about your grand project of "bombing and shooting the capitalists" than the Loyalists, they just prefer a different set of capitalists, with a more local accent and a more Roman flavour to their religious prostrations. What genuine socialism there ever was in the Physical Force Republican movement has long dried up, and you're not likely to find it even among those few bands still fancying themselves "Marxist", let alone the open bead-rattlers.

A tricolour, pretty as it may be, isn't any redder than the Union Jack. Remember that.

Thanks for your replay, now can I be as condescending as your good self.

Anti Imperialism is as much a revolutionary tenant within Irish republicanism as any type of Nationalism, if you weren't so far up your own ideological hole you would see this.

Any armed group who are fighting against Imperialist occupation for the sole reason of national sovereignty and not religion can be accepted as progressive by anyone who supports National Liberation and Socialism.

Communism cannot be established whilst under Imperialist occupation so any process that is motivated by destroying Imperialism can be viewed as a step in the right direction.

I never once said that any fucking jingoistic flag was as good as any other but you have to accept as a Marxist any step towards removing the Imperialist occupation is one that must be supported.

Now you can only disagree with me here in tactics not theory, the tactics I believe will bring a means to an end is physical force revolution. You can sell all the trendy left newspapers you want but your still full of shit unless you put your theory into action.

[Fat Cat Killer]

The paramilitaries aren't any more enthusiastic about your grand project of "bombing and shooting the capitalists" than the Loyalists, they just prefer a different set of capitalists, with a more local accent and a more Roman flavour to their religious prostrations. What genuine socialism there ever was in the Physical Force Republican movement has long dried up, and you're not likely to find it even among those few bands still fancying themselves "Marxist", let alone the open bead-rattlers.

A tricolour, pretty as it may be, isn't any redder than the Union Jack. Remember that.

Is that a racial charachature as your fucking Avatar mate.

It fucking better not be.

[KC]

Someone post the fucking Engels quote already. It's funny because this time it's being used against a Stalinist instead of an Anarchist. :rolleyes:

[PhoenixAsh]

FCKs BS aside....did anybody notice this:

Grenade thrown at police...who were dealing with a suspicious device.
&
Children pressent In proximity

[Devrim]

Someone post the fucking Engels quote already. It's funny because this time it's being used against a Stalinist instead of an Anarchist. :rolleyes:

I think the relevant quote is what old Hegel forgot to say.

Devrim

[Sam_b]

I don't think FCK actually exists, I think he's merely some troll alter-ego or charicature deliberately employed as an attempt to discredit republicanism.

[Niall]

And you really think that government from Dublin is all that much more useful for the Northern Irish working class c.2011 than government from Westminster? That the good Mr. Adams can do much more good sitting in Leinster House than sitting in Stormont? Or do you really think that the pack of bead-rattling zealots still fighting this war are going to bring about communism?

War's over, pal. Pack up your bombs and your guns and start fighting the real fucking enemy, eh?

Bead rattling zealots? Are you for real? Do you know anything about the fight to free ireland?
As for the incident itself; if, and thats a big if, there were children in the vicinity then the attack was inexcusable. I would however take anything that comes from the RUC with a large large pinch of salt

[Niall]

Tim, please explain your "bead rattling" comment because thats twice youve used it and youre beginning to sound like a fan of a certain west of scotland football club with fascist tendancies

[Demogorgon]

Let's pretend for a moment that there is even the slightest possibility that this might be an acceptable tactic and look at what it may actually achieve. Asides from indicating to people that you are psychopath stuck in the past and robbing you of any possible support you might otherwise have had, what does it achieve?

[Demogorgon]

I don't think FCK actually exists, I think he's merely some troll alter-ego or charicature deliberately employed as an attempt to discredit republicanism.
Looks like a Palingenesis sockpuppet to me.

[Fat Cat Killer]

Tim, please explain your "bead rattling" comment because thats twice youve used it and youre beginning to sound like a fan of a certain west of scotland football club with fascist tendancies

The wanker has a racist avatar, I like to see me or you get away with having a Gollywog or a Mistral as ours.
Can you imagine the shite storm yet that hun bastard is let flaunt his racism?

[Jazzratt]

Looks like a Palingenesis sockpuppet to me. The fact it had a conversation with Pali before she was banned says all kinds of depressing things if it is in fact her sock.

[Fat Cat Killer]

The fact it had a conversation with Pali before she was banned says all kinds of depressing things if it is in fact her sock.

Fuck you.

[IndependentCitizen]

I said that part of the article is bull shit propaganda. You called me scum.

Get off your fucking high horse.

whilst attacking imperialists is legitimate, unless you have evidence that there was no children around, then i'll disagree with this action.


But there is a possibility the person who threw the grenade didn't see the children, there was a car then the copper.....possible explanation.


But RIRA, or CIRA. Britain is incredibly vulnerable at the moment, attacking economic targets could have a larger consequence. And causing disruption is better than taking someone's life. possibly win more hearts and minds than killing.



But, I'm open to possible explanations for this incident. But fuck imperialism, up the RA! Just watched a documentary on Patrick McGee, such a shame he never got Thatcher. But that action would have been more welcomed since she screwing over everyone.

[Niall]

The wanker has a racist avatar, I like to see me or you get away with having a Gollywog or a Mistral as ours.
Can you imagine the shite storm yet that hun bastard is let flaunt his racism?

does seem unfair

[Niall]

whilst attacking imperialists is legitimate, unless you have evidence that there was no children around, then i'll disagree with this action.


But there is a possibility the person who threw the grenade didn't see the children, there was a car then the copper.....possible explanation.


But RIRA, or CIRA. Britain is incredibly vulnerable at the moment, attacking economic targets could have a larger consequence. And causing disruption is better than taking someone's life. possibly win more hearts and minds than killing.



But, I'm open to possible explanations for this incident. But fuck imperialism, up the RA! Just watched a documentary on Patrick McGee, such a shame he never got Thatcher. But that action would have been more welcomed since she screwing over everyone.

I dunno because I wasnt there but the peelers always claim there were kids around when these attacks take place. Like i said earlier, take that with a pinch of salt mate

[PhoenixAsh]

Those cops were disabeling a suspect device....and they let children be in the vicinity? Either an obvious lie or gross irresponsibility or worse on the part of the cops.

[Niall]

Those cops were disabeling a suspect device....and they let children be in the vicinity? Either an obvious lie or gross irresponsibility or worse on the part of the cops.

I never even thought of it like that

[Hit The North]

Irrespective of whether there were kids in the vicinity or not, the idea that some lone individual lobbing a dodgy grenade at the pigs before legging it will achieve anything is obviously ludicrous.

Let's be clear that only worker's power is the answer to imperialism, not Irish nationalism.

[Fat Cat Killer]

Irrespective of whether there were kids in the vicinity or not, the idea that some lone individual lobbing a dodgy grenade at the pigs before legging it will achieve anything is obviously ludicrous.

Let's be clear that only worker's power is the answer to imperialism, not Irish nationalism.

Because its worked so well up to now.

Physical force Communism is the only thing they understand

[Tim Finnegan]

Thanks for your replay, now can I be as condescending as your good self.

Anti Imperialism is as much a revolutionary tenant within Irish republicanism as any type of Nationalism, if you weren't so far up your own ideological hole you would see this.

Any armed group who are fighting against Imperialist occupation for the sole reason of national sovereignty and not religion can be accepted as progressive by anyone who supports National Liberation and Socialism.

Communism cannot be established whilst under Imperialist occupation so any process that is motivated by destroying Imperialism can be viewed as a step in the right direction.

I never once said that any fucking jingoistic flag was as good as any other but you have to accept as a Marxist any step towards removing the Imperialist occupation is one that must be supported.

Now you can only disagree with me here in tactics not theory, the tactics I believe will bring a means to an end is physical force revolution. You can sell all the trendy left newspapers you want but your still full of shit unless you put your theory into action.
This about sums up what we're dealing with, here: shoe-string rationalisations for dragging out the Good Old Cause decades past its sell by. No substantial class perspective of any sort.


Is that a racial charachature as your fucking Avatar mate.

It fucking better not be.

The wanker has a racist avatar, I like to see me or you get away with having a Gollywog or a Mistral as ours.
Can you imagine the shite storm yet that hun bastard is let flaunt his racism?
Save your breath, mate, I'm a mick and all. There's a good half-million of us over here, as I would've thought anyone so enthusiastically "Up the Ra" as yourself would be aware. And, in fact, that's exactly why I so detest the bourgeois paramilitaries: I know what's it's like to watch a nation piss the militancy of its working class down the drain in pursuit of some useless sectarian project. There was, at one point, the potential for a left-wing Irish nationalism to unite both the Catholics and Protestant working classes against the British state, and against the bourgeoisie in both Britain and Ireland, but at this point, it's just an argument about which set of dog collars is better than the other.


Bead rattling zealots? Are you for real? Do you know anything about the fight to free ireland?
I know that whatever real socialism was involved dried up years ago, and whatever meaningful anti-imperialism there was followed not a great time later. What's left is a bunch of sectarian scumbags fighting a pointless war against the will of those they claim to defend. There's barely a scrap of Pearse left in these buggers, let alone the barest hint of Connolly.

I assure you, I have nothing at all against the movement for Irish reunification- as my user title suggests, I'm not exactly head-over-heels in love with the Union- I just don't think that there's anything of value, from a nationalist or working class perspective, to be found in the few psychopaths still fighting this war.


Tim, please explain your "bead rattling" comment because thats twice youve used it and youre beginning to sound like a fan of a certain west of scotland football club with fascist tendancies
What's left of the paramilitaries are what the insightful men of the OIRA referred to as the "Rosary Brigade"- a load of Catholic bigots slugging out with a load of Protestant bigots, not a working class organisation. They're for handing power to a different set of bourgeois politicans, not for the power of the working class. (And, again, I'm Irish-Scots myself, so if there's one thing I have absolutely no love for, its Loyalism. My usage of "bead-rattlers" is a sort of "black people and niggers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwejDybX8oA&feature=related)" thing.)

[PhoenixAsh]

Because its worked so well up to now.

Physical force Communism is the only thing they understand

So how have the last few decades been going for you?

Because between espousing republicanism and anti-imperialism and advocating the killing of kids...I really do not see a constructive argument in your posts towards a unified communist effort to free Ireland from both imperialism and religious sectarianism.

If you, as has been mentioned earlier in this thread, think lobbing grenades at cops as in anyway effective to further that goal....how come Ireland is not unified yet?

Now...I am the first to admit that cops are a very viable target. But mindless and random attacks towards the cops is basically killing the symptoms instead of the disease.

[Hit The North]

Because its worked so well up to now.

Physical force Communism is the only thing they understand

Physical force communism? Have you just made that up? Because as far as I can tell, if the incident you cite in the OP is anything to go by, it lacks both force and communism.

[Sasha]

No, its not even that it is poking the symptoms of an rash most people decided they could life with until it becomes an viral outbreak that kills everybody.now if there's an Orange march through an republican neighborhood by all means throw all the molotovs you can but lobbing an dud handgrenade at some pigs is as revolutionary as pissing against an cop shop. its meaningles posturing, it will get you in jail fast and it has about equal community support.

[Fat Cat Killer]

So how have the last few decades been going for you?

Because between espousing republicanism and anti-imperialism and advocating the killing of kids...I really do not see a constructive argument in your posts towards a unified communist effort to free Ireland from both imperialism and religious sectarianism.

If you, as has been mentioned earlier in this thread, think lobbing grenades at cops as in anyway effective to further that goal....how come Ireland is not unified yet?

Now...I am the first to admit that cops are a very viable target. But mindless and random attacks towards the cops is basically killing the symptoms instead of the disease.

Wanker.

[Sasha]

Wanker.

your on a roll, that's infraction number 4.

[Imposter Marxist]

The killing of children is a mistake that must be prevented at all costs. It is a terrible thing for innocence to be hurt like that and such irresponbility should be corrected and stopped in any movement seeking to fight oppression and imperialism.

That being said, if it very common for imperialist and capitalist new sources to spin things like this. How many times have you seen a US new source add their own "View" into the story causing a black man to be seen as threating or possibly dangerous.

[Renno]

Wanker.

Well, some verbal force communism here! And......Nope, also didn't unite Ireland.

If you start a post, be prepared on comments. Whether you like them or not. If you are not prepared for that, do not post.

And back to the OP,
I tried to see it, but if this lame excuse for an attack, is a contribution to the republican struggle, it is not really a surprise that Ireland is still divided.

A struggle can not be won without the support of the people, and these kind of attacks have never won the people for the cause.

[Demogorgon]

The killing of children is a mistake that must be prevented at all costs. It is a terrible thing for innocence to be hurt like that and such irresponbility should be corrected and stopped in any movement seeking to fight oppression and imperialism.

That being said, if it very common for imperialist and capitalist new sources to spin things like this. How many times have you seen a US new source add their own "View" into the story causing a black man to be seen as threating or possibly dangerous.
The media might have a reason to spin this if they were dealing with a popular movement against British Rule, but they are actually reporting on fringe psychopaths who have no backing on either side.

Incidentally I despair of people who still see the events in Northern Ireland as somehow being a struggle against imperialism or for "Irish Liberation". The truth is if there were majority support for reunification in Northern Ireland it would be impossible to prevent it, nor any great motivation to do so given the trouble it causes. The problem in Northern Ireland is one of internal division, and any idiot whose goal is to exacerbate those tensions hinders any hope of socialism.

[Marxach-Léinínach]

A struggle can not be won without the support of the people, and these kind of attacks have never won the people for the cause.

The media might have a reason to spin this if they were dealing with a popular movement against British Rule, but they are actually reporting on fringe psychopaths who have no backing on either side.
Actually, the dissidents have a fair amount of support and sympathy among the nationalist working class in the 6 counties

[Marxach-Léinínach]

Incidentally I despair of people who still see the events in Northern Ireland as somehow being a struggle against imperialism or for "Irish Liberation". The truth is if there were majority support for reunification in Northern Ireland it would be impossible to prevent it, nor any great motivation to do so given the trouble it causes. The problem in Northern Ireland is one of internal division, and any idiot whose goal is to exacerbate those tensions hinders any hope of socialism.
And I despair of people who peddle the imperialist bullshit of the problems of the north of Ireland just being due to "sectarianism". On the one hand you have the nationalist working class in the north who are pretty much the only people with any revolutionary potential whatsoever in the whole of Ireland, and on the other you have about the most reactionary community in the whole of Europe. They ain't going to be accepting communism anytime soon. The national liberation struggle is pretty much the only possibility of socialism being established in Ireland. Good luck with your pipe dream alternative.

[IndependentCitizen]

I dunno because I wasnt there but the peelers always claim there were kids around when these attacks take place. Like i said earlier, take that with a pinch of salt mate

I am, but there MAY have been kids. There was a pig's car behind the copper, so I'm assuming the person who threw the grenade, threw it from behind the car. Which could have impaired his line of sight.

If there was children, then I'm glad it didn't go off. But, it didn't and it's still a sign of resistance.

[Demogorgon]

And I despair of people who peddle the imperialist bullshit of the problems of the north of Ireland just being due to "sectarianism". On the one hand you have the nationalist working class in the north who are pretty much the only people with any revolutionary potential whatsoever in the whole of Ireland, and on the other you have about the most reactionary community in the whole of Europe. They ain't going to be accepting communism anytime soon. The national liberation struggle is pretty much the only possibility of socialism being established in Ireland. Good luck with your pipe dream alternative.
Have you anything better to throw at me than an accusation of "imperialism". Now bearing in mind we are in 2011 can you explain how any imperialism is even at play? Given Ireland and Britain are both highly developed first world countries, it seems ridiculous to talk about any relationship between them still being based on imperialism.

As for socialism through ending community divisions being a "pipe dream", how can anything but that be viable? How on earth does a game of "my side are the good guys and the other side are the bad guys" help anything? If you are so poisoned by your own prejudices that you cannot see why dismissing an entire community as "reactionary" might be tad counter productive, God help you.

At the route of this however is the problem that you and others like you see the basis of your political movement in the prevalence of one national identity over another. In of itself that is reactionary and no basis for socialism.

[IndependentCitizen]

Well, I always thought imperialism = foreign occupation draining your resources for their personal gain.

The border back when it was formed suited the British ruling class because it was heavily industrial = lots of profit. That still kind of remains today, they're draining the resources out of a foreign land at the expense of the Irish working class. A unified Ireland would benefit their economy, whether that be Capitalist, or a Socialist economy. It'd benefit them somewhat more.

Well, that's my take on it.

[black magick hustla]

edit: nvm the cops wont find it funny

[thälmann]

i think that unionist workers are potential revolutionary as every other worker in the world, but they are profiteurs of a sectarian system. thats why a lot of them are reactionary. they have to stop beeing unionist or loyalist.
So the basis for progressive politics is much bigger inside the republican working class. To end this whole problem, you have to end the british occupation.

of course attacks on the police and british army is justified. there is nothing sectarian about it. and i guess the sympathy for armed struggle is bigger in ireland then in any other country in europe.( except italy maybe)

[Demogorgon]

Well, I always thought imperialism = foreign occupation draining your resources for their personal gain.

The border back when it was formed suited the British ruling class because it was heavily industrial = lots of profit. That still kind of remains today, they're draining the resources out of a foreign land at the expense of the Irish working class. A unified Ireland would benefit their economy, whether that be Capitalist, or a Socialist economy. It'd benefit them somewhat more.

Well, that's my take on it.
Well your definition of imperialism could not apply to Northern Ireland in the modern context. After all Northern Ireland's resources cannot be said to be taken by Britain given it is (and always has been) a recipient of more from Britain than it gives out. It cannot even be described as foreign occupation because the majority of people in Northern Ireland do not see Britain as "foreign".

The claim that Northern Ireland is profitable and therefore a reason for Britain to seek Imperial control doesn't really stack up either. it is as easy for British business to exploit the Republic of Ireland as it is for them to exploit Northern Ireland (even easier as it happens given they pay less tax there). Borders don't matter a great deal in that regard these days and indeed so long as both countries are in the European Economic Area it makes pretty much no difference.

As for you claiming it would be economically beneficial for Ireland to see unification, on that I agree, but the trouble is you can't have that kind of debate because the whole issue is caught up in Sectarian Divisions and practical issues don't really come into it. The day the debate on Irish unification centers around the practical benefits or pitfalls of it is the day that
community divisions have largely healed. I see that Sinn Fein is increasingly talking about practical benefits and that is a positive step.

Here in Scotland there will be a referendum on Scottish Independence in three or four years time and while feelings will certainly run high throughout the issue is not one that divides communities, nor is there any social divide between the different sides. i'll be voting yes because I think in practical terms it will benefit us to be independent, but the great thing is my decision is based on practical considerations. If Northern Ireland can have a debate on Unification in the way we have a debate on independence it will be much for the better.

[Tim Finnegan]

i think that unionist workers are potential revolutionary as every other worker in the world, but they are profiteurs of a sectarian system. thats why a lot of them are reactionary. they have to stop beeing unionist or loyalist.
So the basis for progressive politics is much bigger inside the republican working class. To end this whole problem, you have to end the british occupation.
That's an important point, I think. The reason that leftists should support unification is that both the fact of unification and the movement towards it are capable of removing national politics from the picture, and allowing the Northern Irish working class to focus on class politics instead. There's nothing particularly admirable about the Republic, as the FF/FG dichotomy that has dominated from the 1920s until only this year demonstrates, so to fetishise unification for its own sake is the sort of bourgeois nationalism that leftists should take no part in.

However, this means that the exact character of British "imperialism" in Northern Ireland must be brought into question. While its inarguable that the pre-Treaty occupation of Ireland was imperialistic, that was ninety years ago, and the economic and political relationship between the Six Counties and Westminster is not what it was then; specifically, there is no exceptional state-managed or explicitly state-condoned extraction of labour or resources from Northern Ireland used to fuel the development of the economy of Great Britain. British "occupation" instead seems to be primarily characterised by institutionalised sectarianism buttressing continued British rule, and if this was overcome, would it be reasonable to view the rule of the British state in the Six Counties as fundamentally any different than its rule in Wales or Scotland, or even, say, in Yorkshire or Devon? All these regions are politically and economically subservient to Westminster and to the City of London, especially with Britain's much-reduced manufacturing sector, so in the absence of what you might call an "ideology of occupation", does "occupation" even become a useful way of thinking about Northern Ireland?
That's not a question that I have any definite answers to, but it's one that I think the left has to address, because it brings into question exactly how important a Nationalist movement as such actually is, as compared to the anti-sectarian working class movement which would most likely be its necessary precursor. We on the left have a habit of fetishising certain separatisms, which sometimes leads us to lose sight of the class content of those politics and forget why we ever endorsed them in the first place, or what we hope them to achieve.


of course attacks on the police and british army is justified.In what sense? They have no political merit, and run the risk of civilian casualties both directly and through state and paramilitary reprisals. This isn't 1969, and these aren't a latter day OIRA: they're fringe militants without a movement and without a plan.

Oh, and I notice that FCK has not quite found himself able to respond to the revelation that the hated hun turns out be, in this instance, a humble taig like himself. Says a lot about the empty windbaggishness of his politics, I think.

Edit: Although that may be because the silly bugger got himself banned. Heh.

[Robocommie]

Is that a racial charachature as your fucking Avatar mate.

It fucking better not be.

Seriously Finnegan, don't make him hurl a grenade at your kids.

[Niall]

I know that whatever real socialism was involved dried up years ago, and whatever meaningful anti-imperialism there was followed not a great time later. What's left is a bunch of sectarian scumbags fighting a pointless war against the will of those they claim to defend. There's barely a scrap of Pearse left in these buggers, let alone the barest hint of Connolly.

I assure you, I have nothing at all against the movement for Irish reunification- as my user title suggests, I'm not exactly head-over-heels in love with the Union- I just don't think that there's anything of value, from a nationalist or working class perspective, to be found in the few psychopaths still fighting this war.


What's left of the paramilitaries are what the insightful men of the OIRA referred to as the "Rosary Brigade"- a load of Catholic bigots slugging out with a load of Protestant bigots, not a working class organisation. They're for handing power to a different set of bourgeois politicans, not for the power of the working class. (And, again, I'm Irish-Scots myself, so if there's one thing I have absolutely no love for, its Loyalism. My usage of "bead-rattlers" is a sort of "black people and niggers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwejDybX8oA&feature=related)" thing.)

Do you know any of these "sectarian scum-bags"? If you did, you would realise that they are not motivated by sectarianism. They are motivated, rightly or wrongly, in fighting a war to free the north of ireland form foreign rule.
The insightful men of the OIRA, many of whom joined the INLA, committed some bad sectarian missions themselves, so thats a case of pot, kettle and black Im afraid mate.

[Niall]

I am, but there MAY have been kids. There was a pig's car behind the copper, so I'm assuming the person who threw the grenade, threw it from behind the car. Which could have impaired his line of sight.

If there was children, then I'm glad it didn't go off. But, it didn't and it's still a sign of resistance.

I get what you are saying mate, i really do and I agree. But as someone else posted, if the police were disarming a suspect device, would there really have been kids in the vicinity?

[Niall]

In what sense? They have no political merit, and run the risk of civilian casualties both directly and through state and paramilitary reprisals. This isn't 1969, and these aren't a latter day OIRA: they're fringe militants without a movement and without a plan.

Oh, and I notice that FCK has not quite found himself able to respond to the revelation that the hated hun turns out be, in this instance, a humble taig like himself. Says a lot about the empty windbaggishness of his politics, I think.

Edit: Although that may be because the silly bugger got himself banned. Heh.

From what I can gather, the purpose of the attacks is to "smash normailisation". The risk of civilian casualties was always there mate, not that that is a good thing. But recently some of these groups have aborted attacks because of civilians in the area - I know this hapened in Lurgan, my home town, in the not too distant past.

[Tim Finnegan]

Do you know any of these "sectarian scum-bags"? If you did, you would realise that they are not motivated by sectarianism. They are motivated, rightly or wrongly, in fighting a war to free the north of ireland form foreign rule.
Same thing, often enough. What's so great, at this point, about the South that the North needs to fight a war to get to, beyond the fact that it is Catholic-majority? I know that some of the groups like to entertain a mythology of apostolic succession from the First Dáil, but, realistically, all they could ever achieve was bringing the Six Counties into the Republic, and, try as I might, I can't see the major advantage that Fine Gael offer over the Conservative Party in 2011.

I get that, back in the day, the British state really did seem so hideously compromised by institutionalised sectarianism that a radical separatist movement seemed like the necessary response- whatever one thinks of the movement as it manifested itself- and I certainly understand the need for the Catholic community to form militant organisations to protect itself from state and Unionist violence. But those are different times, and those reasons don't hold water any more, so unless we're to let these guys off with committing pointless and counter-productive acts of violence on the basis that they're blinkered by outdated ideology, then we have to recognise their motivations as what they are.


The insightful men of the OIRA, many of whom joined the INLA, committed some bad sectarian missions themselves, so thats a case of pot, kettle and black Im afraid mate.Fair point. I've certainly no love for the INLA, who, for all their Marxist swagger, were quite often worse than the PIRA.

[fionntan]

Same thing, often enough. What's so great, at this point, about the South that the North needs to fight a war to get to, beyond the fact that it is Catholic-majority? I know that some of the groups like to entertain a mythology of apostolic succession from the First Dáil, but, realistically, all they could ever achieve was bringing the Six Counties into the Republic, and, try as I might, I can't see the major advantage that Fine Gael offer over the Conservative Party in 2011.

I get that, back in the day, the British state really did seem so hideously compromised by institutionalised sectarianism that a radical separatist movement seemed like the necessary response- whatever one thinks of the movement as it manifested itself- and I certainly understand the need for the Catholic community to form militant organisations to protect itself from state and Unionist violence. But those are different times, and those reasons don't hold water any more, so unless we're to let these guys off with committing pointless and counter-productive acts of violence on the basis that they're blinkered by outdated ideology, then we have to recognise their motivations as what they are.

Fair point. I've certainly no love for the INLA, who, for all their Marxist swagger, were quite often worse than the PIRA.


Christ you're hard to stick wanker...

[DaringMehring]

Everyone seems to say: killing the cop would be alright, but kids would be going too far.

I disagree -- its wrong to say that bomb-defusing cops are worthy of no questions asked execution by hand grenade.

I don't have any love for the cops. I've stood across from them many times, and been badgered and removed from locations multiple times as well.

Even in that context, you can see that some of them are more sympathetic than others. And all of them are human beings. If you are working class, you might know, as I do, some people who are cops or whose parents are cops, who went into that profession to try to get a relatively good paying job and with some idea about protecting the community.

To simply say that all of those people deserve death no questions asked is sociopathic. I knew a cop who was killed in the line of duty by a villain. He was a good guy and it badly traumatized his family.

There is a time for fighting the state forces: when some of them side with reaction during the revolution. Randomly murdering them now, in a non-revolution, in acts of individual terrorism, is morally evil and tactically bankrupt.

[Optiow]

No good will ever come of aiming weaponry at innocent civilians. If the situation is dire enough (let me be clear on that point) to merit armed force, then target the enemy, not the people. However, armed force must not be used until all peaceful means have been exhausted, which they have not been. I don't think that hand grenade should have been thrown in the first place.

[Niall]

Same thing, often enough. What's so great, at this point, about the South that the North needs to fight a war to get to, beyond the fact that it is Catholic-majority? I know that some of the groups like to entertain a mythology of apostolic succession from the First Dáil, but, realistically, all they could ever achieve was bringing the Six Counties into the Republic, and, try as I might, I can't see the major advantage that Fine Gael offer over the Conservative Party in 2011.

I get that, back in the day, the British state really did seem so hideously compromised by institutionalised sectarianism that a radical separatist movement seemed like the necessary response- whatever one thinks of the movement as it manifested itself- and I certainly understand the need for the Catholic community to form militant organisations to protect itself from state and Unionist violence. But those are different times, and those reasons don't hold water any more, so unless we're to let these guys off with committing pointless and counter-productive acts of violence on the basis that they're blinkered by outdated ideology, then we have to recognise their motivations as what they are.



They are not fighting because the soyuth is a catholic majority, they are fighting to free their country from foreign rule. If that happens, then there would be a viable alternative to FG, including, IMO, the IRSP

[Demogorgon]

They are not fighting because the soyuth is a catholic majority, they are fighting to free their country from foreign rule. If that happens, then there would be a viable alternative to FG, including, IMO, the IRSP
It is amazing how so much can be wrong with a two sentence post. In the first instance as has been said over and over. "foreign rule" really is not a helpful term because the majority of people in Northern Ireland do not see Britain as foreign. Next fighting to "free" their country implies some kind of major change to the freedom of the people in Northern Ireland, yet life in the Republic of Ireland is not that much different. That is not to mention they can hardly be described as freedom fighters when they are acting without the support of the people they purport to "free". A large number of people in Northern Ireland want to be part of the Irish Republic but not with the fanaticism of these ultra nationalists. Particularly given that the systematic discrimination that at one point made leaving Britain very urgent has receded. Plus of course these actions will no more "free" Northern Ireland than they will bring back Elvis.

Perhaps most silly of all though is the claim that a United Ireland would suddenly have parties like the IRSP taking centre state. A reunited Ireland would be an ordinary Western European capitalist state with all that implies in the politics. The main parties in it would be Fine Gael, Labour (presumably enlarged with the SDLP merging into it), Fianna Fail, Sinn Fein...and the DUP. Not what revolutionary society is built upon.

[Niall]

It is amazing how so much can be wrong with a two sentence post. In the first instance as has been said over and over. "foreign rule" really is not a helpful term because the majority of people in Northern Ireland do not see Britain as foreign. Next fighting to "free" their country implies some kind of major change to the freedom of the people in Northern Ireland, yet life in the Republic of Ireland is not that much different. That is not to mention they can hardly be described as freedom fighters when they are acting without the support of the people they purport to "free". A large number of people in Northern Ireland want to be part of the Irish Republic but not with the fanaticism of these ultra nationalists. Particularly given that the systematic discrimination that at one point made leaving Britain very urgent has receded. Plus of course these actions will no more "free" Northern Ireland than they will bring back Elvis.

Perhaps most silly of all though is the claim that a United Ireland would suddenly have parties like the IRSP taking centre state. A reunited Ireland would be an ordinary Western European capitalist state with all that implies in the politics. The main parties in it would be Fine Gael, Labour (presumably enlarged with the SDLP merging into it), Fianna Fail, Sinn Fein...and the DUP. Not what revolutionary society is built upon.

And it is amazing how much can be wrong with a very long winded post too. First of all, "foreign rule" refers to the context of my post, in mhich I was referring to the ideals behind the people who are fighting. To their minds, the North of Ireland is unfree, hence the fighting to free their country part of my post. Life in the South is not that much different, in many ways it is much worse, but again in the context of my post, I was referring to the "dissident groups" nota whole generalisation. Also, these groups have a lot more support than is widely reported, or do you know something that I dont?
And perhaps most silly of all in your post is your last paragraph. I did not say the IRSP or other such groups would take centre stage, I said they would be a viable alternative for people to vote for. They have been gaining support in the North recently and I dont see why that trend would not continue in a UI.

[human strike]

The problem with the Six Counties is there are too many Brits there. Get rid of the Brits and everything will be hunky-dory! Like workers' councils will spring up and all the wealth will be redistributed and all that good shit. It's all because of those British bastards! Because like there's no such thing as an Irish capitalist or transnational capital, all capitalists are British. True story.

[fionntan]

Getting rid of the occupational forces in the six and uniting the country might not be high up on some british communists agenda but to us the Irish it is. That and the workers republic run paralell for republicans. Dont try the ole yous are Irish nationalists bull it not going to wash.

[Niall]

The problem with the Six Counties is there are too many Brits there. Get rid of the Brits and everything will be hunky-dory! Like workers' councils will spring up and all the wealth will be redistributed and all that good shit. It's all because of those British bastards! Because like there's no such thing as an Irish capitalist or transnational capital, all capitalists are British. True story.

what exactly are you on about?

[fionntan]

what exactly are you on about?

He is trying to be smart and condecending..Typical british trate when speaking to the stupid paddys..

[Sensible Socialist]

It's easy to say violence needs to occur for the revolution to move foward, until someone you know personally is killed because of it. Casualties should be limited to those directly opposing the class struggle (i.e. armed defenders of the capitalist system). If you think that the only way to advance the struggle is to indiscriminantly kill children, you don't have any place in the class struggle.

[Niall]

It's easy to say violence needs to occur for the revolution to move foward, until someone you know personally is killed because of it. Casualties should be limited to those directly opposing the class struggle (i.e. armed defenders of the capitalist system). If you think that the only way to advance the struggle is to indiscriminantly kill children, you don't have any place in the class struggle.

couldnt agree more mate

[fionntan]

It's easy to say violence needs to occur for the revolution to move foward, until someone you know personally is killed because of it. Casualties should be limited to those directly opposing the class struggle (i.e. armed defenders of the capitalist system). If you think that the only way to advance the struggle is to indiscriminantly kill children, you don't have any place in the class struggle.


Well considering that facts has emerged that there was no chilldren near the attack on the crown forces and that it was again an atempt to demonise republicans by the british and there Irish mercinary puppets. People really need to think before they type.

[chegitz guevara]

"By any means necessary", that should be the slogan of the Revolutionary left.

Instead we are stuck with a bunch of pansy's.

There's something wrong with being gay?

[fionntan]

There's something wrong with being gay?


That person is an edjet and i doubt if he/she was even Irish never mind revouloutionary in thinking.A Ballon we call them in Belfast.

[chegitz guevara]

Those cops were disabeling a suspect device....and they let children be in the vicinity? Either an obvious lie or gross irresponsibility or worse on the part of the cops.

The popo generally cordon off a safe zone, which is then surrounded by gawking spectators. It's possible the grenade was thrown at the police line near the people.

Keep in mind kids are like cockroaches. They get in everywhere.

[IndependentCitizen]

Same thing, often enough. What's so great, at this point, about the South that the North needs to fight a war to get to, beyond the fact that it is Catholic-majority? I know that some of the groups like to entertain a mythology of apostolic succession from the First Dáil, but, realistically, all they could ever achieve was bringing the Six Counties into the Republic, and, try as I might, I can't see the major advantage that Fine Gael offer over the Conservative Party in 2011.



Regardless of who's in power, it isn't about that. It's about being reunified. I'm sure Irish republicans in the North could greatly affect the political outcome in the south given the chance to vote in their rightful place.

[Threetune]

Yeah because that works so well in the west.

The only action the Imperialists understand and fear comes through the barrel of a gun.

The trendy SP/SWP type activism is laughed at by Capitalism.


That’s one thing you got right, for sure.

[Tim Finnegan]

They are not fighting because the soyuth is a catholic majority, they are fighting to free their country from foreign rule.
But what is "foreign rule", if the Six Counties were to attain a level of functioning bourgeois democracy equivalent to that of Great Britain? Is Westminster not "foreign" to Scotland, or even to Yorkshire, as it is to Northern Ireland? Only bourgeois nationalism could lead one to place reunification as a priority, and only a stupid and self-destructive sectarianism to think that it's still a cause demanding of violence.


If that happens, then there would be a viable alternative to FG, including, IMO, the IRSPThe IRSP are an obscure fringe sect, not a viable political party. Reunification isn't likely to change that, any more than, say, Scottish independence will give us an SSP government in 2015.


Getting rid of the occupational forces in the six and uniting the country might not be high up on some british communists agenda but to us the Irish it is. That and the workers republic run paralell for republicans. Dont try the ole yous are Irish nationalists bull it not going to wash.
That's more of a declaration than an argument, but alright, if you insist. I just can't help but wonder what old Connolly would make of your "hoisting the green flag over Dublin Castle", if you follow me.


Regardless of who's in power, it isn't about that. It's about being reunified. I'm sure Irish republicans in the North could greatly affect the political outcome in the south given the chance to vote in their rightful place.
And what does that have to do with Marxism, exactly?

[fionntan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G6hi6xoG7w

[Tim Finnegan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G6hi6xoG7w (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G6hi6xoG7w)

i9SSOWORzw4

Which is to say, what's your point?

[Niall]

But what is "foreign rule", if the Six Counties were to attain a level of functioning bourgeois democracy equivalent to that of Great Britain? Is Westminster not "foreign" to Scotland, or even to Yorkshire, as it is to Northern Ireland? Only bourgeois nationalism could lead one to place reunification as a priority, and only a stupid and self-destructive sectarianism to think that it's still a cause demanding of violence.

The IRSP are an obscure fringe sect, not a viable political party. Reunification isn't likely to change that, any more than, say, Scottish independence will give us an SSP government in 2015.




Like I said in an earlier post, the people carrying out these attacks believe the country is under foreign rule - ie not under self rule but being ruled from an outside - foreign - country. Are there people in Scotland and/or yorkshire that consider westminster foreign to them? Unfortuneately I dunno the answer to that.
Again, with regards to the IRSP, their support is growing in some communities in the North. This means people already see them as a viable alternative to current parties, why would change if the country is reunified?

[Tim Finnegan]

Like I said in an earlier post, the people carrying out these attacks believe the country is under foreign rule - ie not under self rule but being ruled from an outside - foreign - country. Are there people in Scotland and/or yorkshire that consider westminster foreign to them? Unfortuneately I dunno the answer to that.
I know that's what they believe, but my point is that there to actually take that sort of bourgeois nationalism, at this point in time, and draw from it the conclusion that a violent campaign is necessary can only really be explained by either a deep sectarian bigotry or insanity, and I'll give even the Real IRA- or the CIRA, or the ONH, or whoever the hell it was this time- at least enough benefit of the doubt to assume that they're mentally sound. This isn't the 1970s, and it sure as hell isn't the 1920s, so I'm not about let anybody of the hook just because they've convinced themselves that their stated cause is a legitiamte justification for their activities.

And, yes, there are both Scots who regard the Union as a foreign entity, hence the SNP government in Scotland. Yorkshiremen... Maybe less so, but I'm willing to bet that there's a few who crave to return to the days of an independent Northumbria. ;)


Again, with regards to the IRSP, their support is growing in some communities in the North. This means people already see them as a viable alternative to current parties, why would change if the country is reunified?
Because the IRSP are in practice a party for dissident Sinn Féiners, and so can never really move out of Sinn Féin's already limited audience- an audience which is quite likely to shrivel up as soon as "Brits out!" becomes a redundant slogan. You want a working class movement in Ireland, it's not going to come from a bitter little fringe sect.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

A bunch of kids standing around a place where a bomb squad is checking something out because they think it might explode? Who's more criminal, the person who threw the grenade or the bomb squad who lets kids, or anybody for that matter, hang around the place where they are inspecting what they think might be an explosive device? I remember when there was a suspicious bag in the park one time and the police evacuated the whole area, nobody was aloud near what the bomb squad was doing.

So either they're making shit up saying that there was kids there to make them look worse or the bomb squad in Ireland is just horribly careless as to let little kids wonder around the place where they think a bomb is.

[amos]

The popo generally cordon off a safe zone, which is then surrounded by gawking spectators. It's possible the grenade was thrown at the police line near the people.

Keep in mind kids are like cockroaches. They get in everywhere.


:)

[fionntan]

The poster tim is a cockroach.

[Tim Finnegan]

The poster tim is a cockroach.
I wouldn't say that I'm quite adventurous enough to be a cockroach. A woodlouse is more my pace of life.

[Niall]

I know that's what they believe, but my point is that there to actually take that sort of bourgeois nationalism, at this point in time, and draw from it the conclusion that a violent campaign is necessary can only really be explained by either a deep sectarian bigotry or insanity, and I'll give even the Real IRA- or the CIRA, or the ONH, or whoever the hell it was this time- at least enough benefit of the doubt to assume that they're mentally sound. This isn't the 1970s, and it sure as hell isn't the 1920s, so I'm not about let anybody of the hook just because they've convinced themselves that their stated cause is a legitiamte justification for their activities.

And, yes, there are both Scots who regard the Union as a foreign entity, hence the SNP government in Scotland. Yorkshiremen... Maybe less so, but I'm willing to bet that there's a few who crave to return to the days of an independent Northumbria. ;)


Because the IRSP are in practice a party for dissident Sinn Féiners, and so can never really move out of Sinn Féin's already limited audience- an audience which is quite likely to shrivel up as soon as "Brits out!" becomes a redundant slogan. You want a working class movement in Ireland, it's not going to come from a bitter little fringe sect.

your first paragraph I can see the logic behind, and in a way agree with you, so gonna leave that alone. As for your last paragraph, I dont agree. The IRSP arent a party for dissident sin feiners, never have been - thats the 32CSM and RSF. Theyve gone back to grassroots politics, uniting the people etc. Sin fein, as much as I dont like them, dont have a limited audience, as recent elections have shown, and they have long since moved past the brits out slogan mate

[Niall]

The poster tim is a cockroach.

wouldnt go that far mate, some of his posting here has been sound, in others he's just misguided

[Tim Finnegan]

your first paragraph I can see the logic behind, and in a way agree with you, so gonna leave that alone. As for your last paragraph, I dont agree. The IRSP arent a party for dissident sin feiners, never have been - thats the 32CSM and RSF. Theyve gone back to grassroots politics, uniting the people etc.
Well, "dissident Sinn Féiners" is, as you say, inaccurate insofar as they trace their ancestry down the Sticky rather than Provo line, but my point was that in practice they represent the hard-left fringe of Sinn Féin's left-nationalist sphere, rather than really standing apart on their own class-based platform. Their public sympathies are largely a product of dissatisfaction with Sinn Féin as a representative of the working class, rather than an interest in revolutionary socialism; as a Leninist party, rather than as a republican party, the really have no more public presence than, say, the Communist Party of Britain, and quite possibly a good deal less.


Sin fein, as much as I dont like them, dont have a limited audience, as recent elections have shown, and they have long since moved past the brits out slogan mateWell, I suppose that really depends on how broad an appeal Sinn Féin's nationalist-populism can be said to have at any one time, which admittedly isn't the constant I implied. Their Northern audience is essentially the same as the SDLP, i.e. working class nationalists, and their support drawn from their status as a harder-line on both their left-wing and nationalist politics, while in the South they occupy a sort of funny niche between Fine Gael and Labour, a sort of left-wing nationalist-populist- which, although it appears to be successful at present, may not have a limitless lifespan.
I mean, perhaps I am being over-simplistic in reducing them to "Brits out", but they do very often seem like something of a dinosaur with a new coat of paint, having managed to reinvent themselves neither as quite a centre-left nationalist party- á la the SNP or Plaid Cymru- or to have moved beyond nationalist to a more broadly left-wing body of politics. They bring together two lines which are by no means natural bedfellows, and while they seem to be complimentary at the moment, I don't know if it's something which they'll be able to spin out indefinitely- especially if the country is reunited.

[human strike]

He is trying to be smart and condecending..Typical british trate when speaking to the stupid paddys..

Makes a change from me being accused of being an IRA sympathiser at least.

[fionntan]

Thats nothing to be ashamed of comrade..

[Niall]

Well, "dissident Sinn Féiners" is, as you say, inaccurate insofar as they trace their ancestry down the Sticky rather than Provo line, but my point was that in practice they represent the hard-left fringe of Sinn Féin's left-nationalist sphere, rather than really standing apart on their own class-based platform. Their public sympathies are largely a product of dissatisfaction with Sinn Féin as a representative of the working class, rather than an interest in revolutionary socialism; as a Leninist party, rather than as a republican party, the really have no more public presence than, say, the Communist Party of Britain, and quite possibly a good deal less.

.

eh what? The dissidents draw their ancestry down the stickie rather than provo line? Do you really believe that?

[Tim Finnegan]

eh what? The dissidents draw their ancestry down the stickie rather than provo line? Do you really believe that?
I meant that the IRSP trace their ancestry down the Sticky line, in that they were originally a split from the Workers Party, and so that you are right to say that they are not "dissident Sinn Féiners" as such.

Anyway, I gave the point a little more thought, and what I am basically trying to say is that, while the IRSP may hold a Leninist ideology, they are not in real terms part of a Leninist political tradition. As a Marxist party, they're really just another minor sect, not the sort of mass party argued for by Lenin and Connolly, their nominal forefathers, and are distinguished form this fringe morass largely through their position within the left-nationalist sphere, i.e. as a hard-left alternative to Sinn Féin, rather than through any particular quality as a Marxist party. There's no substantial history of such sects ever becoming revolutionary forces in the developed world, and I can't see any particular reason to look towards the IRSP as being the ones to break this apparent historical rule.


Thats nothing to be ashamed of comrade..
No, no, sympathising with sectarian murderers is pretty shameful. Doubly so for a leftist.

[Marxach-Léinínach]

The IRA are "sectarian murderers" are they? And there I was thinking they killed the least civilians out of any side during the Troubles. There I was thinking they actually killed more catholics than protestants :rolleyes:

[Lord Testicles]

The IRA are "sectarian murderers" are they? And there I was thinking they killed the least civilians out of any side during the Troubles. There I was thinking they actually killed more catholics than protestants :rolleyes:

If you kill someone you are a murderer. You're not any less of a murderer just because you've killed 200 less people than Harold Shipman.

[Marxach-Léinínach]

Well "sectarian" would suggest that they just went around shooting protestants all the time and "murderers" would suggest that they were into killing innocent civilians, whereas in reality they actually killed more catholics than protestants, most of their kills were cops/soldiers, and pretty much all their civilian kills were accidents/collateral damage etc. So neither of those descriptions really fit ya know

[Tim Finnegan]

The IRA are "sectarian murderers" are they? And there I was thinking they killed the least civilians out of any side during the Troubles. There I was thinking they actually killed more catholics than protestants :rolleyes:
If you can point me to the part of my post where I ruled out the chronic back-stabbing and frequent incompetence of the Republican paramilitaries, I may be able to concede that you had a point.


Well "sectarian" would suggest that they just went around shooting protestants all the time and "murderers" would suggest that they were into killing innocent civilians, whereas in reality they actually killed more catholics than protestants, most of their kills were cops/soldiers, and pretty much all their civilian kills were accidents/collateral damage etc. So neither of those descriptions really fit ya know
That only a minority of their killings were sectarian murders does not make them anything less than sectarian murders. "You fuck one goat"...

[Zederbaum]

Like I said in an earlier post, the people carrying out these attacks believe the country is under foreign rule
Christians believe a tripartite man-god rules the universe. The question is whether it is true. And even if it is true, whether the strategy of armed resistance is a useful one. The current IRAs (excluding the near-retired Provisionals I count 5 :D) are replicating the division that one sees amongst left wing groups in Europe and America. Such division results from a profound long term defeat.

Again, with regards to the IRSP, their support is growing in some communities in the North. This means people already see them as a viable alternative to current parties, why would change if the country is reunified?The IRSP will never in a million years become anything other than a tiny sect, especially in the south. Their very presence is considered toxic to any political campaign. If they participate, you can be sure that most everybody else will drift away. That may be fair or unfair, but it's a legacy they created for themselves in the 1980s and 1990s through their unceasing ability to resort to murderous violence in settling their internal feuds.

[Niall]

Christians believe a tripartite man-god rules the universe. The question is whether it is true. And even if it is true, whether the strategy of armed resistance is a useful one. The current IRAs (excluding the near-retired Provisionals I count 5 :D) are replicating the division that one sees amongst left wing groups in Europe and America. Such division results from a profound long term defeat.
The IRSP will never in a million years become anything other than a tiny sect, especially in the south. Their very presence is considered toxic to any political campaign. If they participate, you can be sure that most everybody else will drift away. That may be fair or unfair, but it's a legacy they created for themselves in the 1980s and 1990s through their unceasing ability to resort to murderous violence in settling their internal feuds.

First, I wasnt discussing the usefulness of an armed resistance.
Secondly, please explain how their very presence is considered toxic to any political campaign.
SF seemed to come out of the 80s and 90s alright mate

[Niall]

I meant that the IRSP trace their ancestry down the Sticky line, in that they were originally a split from the Workers Party, and so that you are right to say that they are not "dissident Sinn Féiners" as such.

Anyway, I gave the point a little more thought, and what I am basically trying to say is that, while the IRSP may hold a Leninist ideology, they are not in real terms part of a Leninist political tradition. As a Marxist party, they're really just another minor sect, not the sort of mass party argued for by Lenin and Connolly, their nominal forefathers, and are distinguished form this fringe morass largely through their position within the left-nationalist sphere, i.e. as a hard-left alternative to Sinn Féin, rather than through any particular quality as a Marxist party. There's no substantial history of such sects ever becoming revolutionary forces in the developed world, and I can't see any particular reason to look towards the IRSP as being the ones to break this apparent historical rule.


.

Ah right, that makes a lot more sense mate.
I cant argue with your second paragraph as Im not qualified to do so, so I'll concede the point here!