Victory day

[Omsk]

On may ninth,the Nazi slaughterers surrendered and dropped their weapons down!Glory to the veterans of the Great War!Remember all who gave their lives in this gigantic struggle against fascism and Nazism!Remember the brave men who died in Stalingrad,Africa,Belgium,France,Normandy,above the English channel,and everywhere else where the free people of Europe stood against fascism and Nazism!
Don't let the memory fade away,always remember the Great War and the heroes who fought in it against Nazism and Hitler!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4Curf7UAn4

http://www.moscow-russia-insiders-guide.com/images/moscow-parade-1.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrFKDXuQYh0

[Sir Comradical]

On this day sixty-six years ago, the supposedly unstoppable German Wehrmacht that had sought to reduce Eastern Europe & the Balkans to the status of slave nations was brought to its knees by Red Army of the Soviet Union.

Red Army: 606 Axis Divisions defeated.
All-the-other-allies-combined: 176 Axis Divisions defeated.

Honourable mention to the Yugoslav Partisans, the Greek resistance ELAS, Albania's national resistance movement and the brave fighters of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising!!

The Italian army also deserves credit for the defeat of the Axis. (lol)

[Khalid]

Long live the memory of the Red Army and comrade Stalin!

[Sir Comradical]

Long live the memory of the Red Army and comrade Stalin!

While it's true that Stalin took on an impressive set of responsibilities in directing the war, it must be remembered that he did murder men like Tukhachevsky who would have been extremely helpful. Instead of pursuing Tukhachevsky's highly advanced deep battle theory, the Red Army initially responded to Operation Barbarossa with shitty tactics from WW1.

[Bandito]

My city is officially celebrating Victory day with a big ska-punk concert outside the City Hall. So far it featured bands like The Adicts, PTTB, The Damned, Talco and such...

http://www.happynovisad.com/kalendar/flyers/ritam_evrope_11.jpg

[Madvillainy]

it never ceases to amazes me when so called socialists support the biggest blood bath in human history all in the name of 'anti-fascism'. the war wasnt about democracy v fascism, it was an inter-imperialist war (no different than world war 1) and as such the working class where sent to butcher each other in the interests of their stalinist, democratic or fascist bosses.

"How to struggle?
With Germany? No!
With England? No!
Third front, socialist proletariat!
Against national socialism and
Against national bolshevism:
International class war!"

[Omsk]

It never ceases to amaze me how idiotic can people be!This is a thread devoted to the memory of the many workers and soldiers and civilians who lost their lives in the struggle against Nazism and fascism,not support for the Great War you idiot!Some of us have family members who fought and died in the war and it is of great importance to remember their actions,not of the leaders,but their actions,the actions of ordinary soldiers and workers who stopped fascism..

[Tommy4ever]

A toast to the final destruction of Fascism!

Hurrah for the soldiers of all allied armies and the partisans who fought across Europe! Heroes one and all!

[Sam_b]

Empty rhetoric in this thread. A thread like this with slogans and no content really shouldn't be in history as its crowing, not discussion.


This is a thread devoted to the memory of the many workers and soldiers and civilians who lost their lives in the struggle against Nazism and fascismThe many workers, soldiers and civilians who lost their lives for one rival imperialism over another.

[Tommy4ever]

Yeah .... but one sort of Imperialism was kinda a lot worse than the others two sorts ....

[Sam_b]

So that makes millions of deaths okay then? Because there's a 'nicer' imperialism than another sort?

[Madvillainy]

Yeah .... but one sort of Imperialism was kinda a lot worse than the others two sorts ....

and what is that based on?

[Omsk]

The many workers, soldiers and civilians who lost their lives for one rival imperialism over another.
Oh god will you people stop it?They lost their lives for freedom,you in the west could have survived,but in a scenario where Hitler won,Eastern Europe would be a huge concentration camp.



Empty rhetoric in this thread. A thread like this with slogans and no content really shouldn't be in history as its crowing, not discussion.

All right,move it to some other forum section if you see that fit,but i personally think that this thread must exist. I mean,there are tons of rubbish threads on RevLeft,tons of them,this is a thread devoted to the Victory against fascism,about the Victory Day,it should exist.You can close it tomorrow if you want.

[Tommy4ever]

So that makes millions of deaths okay then? Because there's a 'nicer' imperialism than another sort?

No ...

We're celebrating the end of the war and the death of fascism - not the war itself.


and what is that based on?

I'm not sure what your trying to say here? That Nazism wasn't so bad?

[Sam_b]

See, this emphasises how baseless the whole thread is. Rather than political argument, we get:


Oh god will you people stop it?They lost their lives for freedom,you in the west could have survived,but in a scenario where Hitler won,Eastern Europe would be a huge concentration camp.


A post of no historical value, and a rebuttle of 'will you people stop it'. There is no explanation of how these people apparently died for 'freedom' (freedom from what, one might argue) aside from, i'm guessing an assumption based on simplicities of "fascism is bad, therefore anything that isn't fascism is good".

Why must this thread exist, persay? I doubt we have that many war veterans on this website, and all in all it just seems to be a thread to make slogans in bold font and to chat up the 'glorious' Red Army.

[Sam_b]

We're celebrating the end of the war and the death of fascism

So Franco stopped exisiting after 1945, aye?


Hurrah for the soldiers of all allied armies and the partisans who fought across Europe! Heroes one and all!

This is pretty much glorifying working class people dying a pointless death.

[Tommy4ever]

Stop being so pedantic. Franco can be seen as just another reactionary dictator as much as he can be seen as a Fascist. But on revleft, where everything is fascist, I guess I made that mistake.

So you don't think that these working men died for something worthwhile? Well, should the people of occupied Europe just sat down and grumblingly bared it or should they have fought back?

I know lefties love to be all anti-war in all circumstances - but you can't ignore the nature of the regime these people helped to destroy. I'm sorry if I respect them for the actions they took. :/

[Omsk]

(freedom from what, one might argue)
Nazism what else? Do you think the Nazis would let slavs live normally?Of course not.



i'm guessing an assumption based on simplicities of "fascism is bad, therefore anything that isn't fascism is good".

No,in the case of WW2,i support almost everyone who fought against Nazis and fascists.


Why must this thread exist, persay?

Why not? Does it bother anyone?Should we remember the heroes who fought against Hitler and his Nazi hordes?Yes.Always.


and all in all it just seems to be a thread to make slogans in bold font

And you had nothing against the Yuri Gagarin thread?No?Why? It was on the same principle,people posted messages of support and a couple of nice words regarding the subject.But this,is suddenly a problem.


'glorious' Red Army.

That is not the case,we have specificly said that all allied soldiers who fought against Hitler deserve respect.But to be honest,id rather 'chat up' the Red Army than the Western allied armies.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Despite mainstream denunciations, and despite the purges, Stalin personally played a key role in the logistical expertise needed to defeat the Nazis, and not just moving industrial equipment en masse past the Urals.

[Sam_b]

I feel an old Bobkindles post is apt for here, in order to cut through this very simplistic notion of history, frought with sentimentalism:


You're right, they did sacrifice themselves, they sacrificed themselves so that the British ruling class would be able to retain its hold on the world's and resources, and prevent Germany and Japan from threatening its imperial interests, because WW2, just like WW1, was a war between rival imperialist powers that had nothing to do with democracy or defeating fascism. If you say that it was good that they fought against German soldiers then that necessarily implies that there was a community of interests between the bourgeoisie and the working class during WW2, given that almost the whole of the establishment was also supporting the war effort, which, given that a basic principle of revolutionary socialism is that the interests of bosses and workers are irreconcilable, is problematic, to say the least. Not only that, it also raises the question of what you and Bone think about the decision of numerous Stalinist parties like the CPGB and CPUSA to make a truce with the state by calling on workers not to go on strike whilst the war was taking place - we can only assume that Bone supports such things because allowing strikes to occur would undermine what he regards as a working-class struggle. It was the job of socialists in that war to call on soldiers to turn on their officers and transform the war into a civil war between classes, and unfortunately there were quite a few Trotskyists and Anarchists, who, instead of speaking out against the war, sided with their respective ruling classes. The fact that so many working-class people in this country and in the countries that were under the control of British imperialism at the time like India and Egypt were butchered should not be celebrated as a glorious victory in the history of our movement, or treated as something that was in the interests of those who died, or as a sign of honour, it should be mourned as yet another sign, in addition to the poverty that working people endure every day, that capitalism, especially in its imperialist stage, has nothing to offer the vast majority of mankind and, as long as it continues to exist, will simply give rise to more destructive and tragic wars. If they want to show respect for the dead, then people should throw themselves into the anti-war movement and fight to overthrow capitalism, to make sure that no more workers have to die in imperialist wars, and that those people from working-class backgrounds who are currently serving in countries like Afghanistan and Iraq are brought home as soon as possible, to be with their families, not adopt a symbol of blind nationalism like the poppy.

This is also generally good: http://www.icl-fi.org/english/wv/944/archives.html

[Sam_b]

Nazism what else? Do you think the Nazis would let slavs live normally?Of course not.

Where was the freedom for independent unions or working class action in Stalin's Union?


No,in the case of WW2,i support almost everyone who fought against Nazis and fascists.

So you give support to Churchill and the British Empire's imperial interests?


And you had nothing against the Yuri Gagarin thread?No?Why? It was on the same principle,people posted messages of support and a couple of nice words regarding the subject.But this,is suddenly a problem.

I apologise for not going through every single thread in the forums.

[Omsk]

Where was the freedom for independent unions or working class action in Stalin's Union?

So,Russians are the only slavs?


So you give support to Churchill and the British Empire's imperial interests?
I give support to the working class of England and British soldiers who fought the Nazis.Churchill can rot.


I apologise for not going through every single thread in the forums.

Apology accepted..:rolleyes:

[Sam_b]

So,Russians are the only slavs?

No, whats your point?


I give support to the working class of England and British soldiers who fought the Nazis.Churchill can rot.

What about the 'working class of England' that bombed Dresden, Milan, or Turin in the name of fighting fascism?

Are English people the only Brits?

[Red Future]

This thread is irritating and shouldn't be ..don't slur the victory over Fascism by all the peoples of Europe as well Stalin's Soviet Union

The legacy of Nazism and other fascist currents
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzgruppen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Guard
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp
to name a few

ComradeErich posted this to celebrate a victory over Fascism and considering what we know of Nazi labor relations (nonexistent) It was a victory for the Working class

[Sam_b]

The idea that the war was a victory for the working class is absolutely laughable and spits in the face of any principled leftism.

[Red Future]

The idea that the war was a victory for the working class is absolutely laughable and spits in the face of any principled leftism.

mm last time I looked Nazism and Italian Fascism were hostile to workers rights

[Omsk]

No, whats your point?
You mention Stalin in the context of repression,but you forget about East-Europe Slavs,who were not under Stalin.They were 'free*' {And they would be exterminated under Hitler} (*whatever is the true definition of free in that period)


What about the 'working class of England' that bombed Dresden, Milan, or Turin in the name of fighting fascism?

Are English people the only Brits?

The bombing of Nazi cities was something i do not support,however,i don't feel bad for the Waffen SS troops or the hard core members of the Wehrmacht.

[Sam_b]

Ah!!! yess!!! So by that excellent logic, siding with another side of imperialism is somehow progressive and advances the working class. Sound. It's disheartening that such childish and simplistic logic is one which runs rife on this forum, to be honest. The weird thing is in this sentence is that there's not a word on the British Empire, the United States, or indeed the Soviet Union as being 'hostile to workers rights'. Perhaps you're taking this as a given, but it is strange not to put this here.

Where's the victory in working class people bombing other working class people in their factories?

[Sam_b]

You mention Stalin in the context of repression,but you forget about East-Europe Slavs,who were not under Stalin.They were 'free' (whatever is the true definition of free in that period)

Perhaps this is indeed a question for another thread, and perhaps another day when I don't have an impending exam, but i'll try and respond here. Your definition of 'East European Slavs' is one I don't really understand in the geographic context, but i'm interpreting it as what I would call 'Central European' - ie in the case of Czechoslovakia for instance. this is reasonably true in the immiediate post-45 fallout, but then again there were clear links in every level of the KSČ with the Muscovite faction (a phenomenon which was found in most Central European parties at the time), and one which usually rode to power on the coattails of Stalinism. Perhaps not the best example in the Czechoslovak context with regards to the 1947 election, but this was occurring in other areas at least. The fact that the allies had been complicit in carving up the entire country and allowing it to fall to Nazism shows the attitude in general - profit and expansion were more important goals than fighting fascism here.


i don't feel bad for the Waffen SS troops or the hard core members of the Wehrmacht.

Oh of course, I wouldn't expect you to and neither do I.

[Omsk]

Perhaps this is indeed a question for another thread, and perhaps another day when I don't have an impending exam, but i'll try and respond here. Your definition of 'East European Slavs' is one I don't really understand in the geographic context, but i'm interpreting it as what I would call 'Central European' - ie in the case of Czechoslovakia for instance. this is reasonably true in the immiediate post-45 fallout, but then again there were clear links in every level of the KSČ with the Muscovite faction (a phenomenon which was found in most Central European parties at the time), and one which usually rode to power on the coattails of Stalinism. Perhaps not the best example in the Czechoslovak context with regards to the 1947 election, but this was occurring in other areas at least. The fact that the allies had been complicit in carving up the entire country and allowing it to fall to Nazism shows the attitude in general - profit and expansion were more important goals than fighting fascism here.



Your definition of 'East European Slavs' is one I don't really understand in the geographic context
Well,what i wanted to say is that a lot of the Slavs of Eastern Europe,and southern Europe lived normal lives,not perfect,but acceptable,and they were invaded by Hitler,and slaughtered by the mass,just because they were Slavs,and life under fascism for them is impossible (as they were regarded as untermensch,and not worthy to live.) While western world people could,and did live under fascism (The French for an example.)
- Every repressional government was better than Nazi rule for the Slavs.

And,now that you mention it,we could open up a new thread.

[Sam_b]

This is true, but I don't think it proves or disproves the pointlessness of the war; as I would contend that it was only done under a pretext of fighting fascism. What ideally would have been seen would be the working class turning their guns on their commanders and turning it into a full-on civil war.

[pranabjyoti]

brave fighters of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising!!
Not the reactionary Warsaw uprising. It was more an attempt to grab power before the entering of Red Army in Warsaw than any kind of uprising against Nazi Germany. Actually, those cadres and common Polish people, who took part in the uprising were probably hones, but the leadership, the London based Armia Kraiova group was nothing but capitalist perpetrators. Basically, the uprising was defeated due to their greedy decisions. So, with due respect to the general cadres and Polish people of Warsaw, the Warsaw Ghetto uprising can not be considered to something properly against Nazi Germany.

[Aurora]

WW2 was a massive defeat for the world working class not just in terms of the millions who died fighting for German, Italian, Japanese, British and American imperialism but also the workers who were caught up in the patriotic cheerleading of their own countries, sacrificing their wages and unions in the 'national interest'.
'Victory day' isn't something to be proudly celebrated but should be remembered as one of the greatest defeats of all time.
I believe the job of revolutionaries in the imperialist countries was to argue for the defeat of their own countries and to defend the USSR against imperialist aggression.

[Omsk]

'Victory day' isn't something to be proudly celebrated but should be remembered as one of the greatest defeats of all time

Russians,Belarusians and Slavs in general should celebrate the defeat of fascism.As well as all people.
It was a victory and nothing will change that.
Western leftist,on the other hand,should decide on their own.

[Tavarisch_Mike]

My city is officially celebrating Victory day with a big ska-punk concert outside the City Hall. So far it featured bands like The Adicts, PTTB, The Damned, Talco and such...

http://www.happynovisad.com/kalendar/flyers/ritam_evrope_11.jpg


Wow! That sounds great/cool! I really like Talcos version of Bella Ciao.

Today when i told my collagues at work that it was V-day they where like; "Thats worth celebrating!" and "WTF are we doing here working, this should be a hollyday".

[Aurora]

Celebrate the defeat of fascism

Haters go kill yourselves

Fascism wasn't defeated it was pushed into the background to be used against the workers another day. There is no altruistic imperialism, Britain and America acted solely in their own capitalist interest. What your arguing is that fascism is a totally different socio-economic system to capitalism, it isn't, it's capitalism without it's 'democratic' facade.

[Marxach-Léinínach]

damn son, some of the posts on this thread are disgraceful. Long live the Red Army and everyone who fought for freedom

[Marxach-Léinínach]

Is it a coincidence that all the guys fobbing off the Nazis like they were just any other imperialist power on here appear to come from western european countries that Hitler approved of racially?

[Omsk]

Is it a coincidence that all the guys fobbing off the Nazis like they were just any other imperialist power on here appear to come from western european countries that Hitler approved of racially?
Thats the point i am trying to make.Believe me,victory in WW2 has great meaning in East Europe.

[Kiev Communard]

I believe the main misunderstanding here seems to be that some users apparently believe that the Nazi Germany was "merely" a power interested in conquest and exploitation, while Hitler's plans for East Europe clearly included genocide and mass deportation that no other imperialist power envisaged. So, even though I tend to agree with Left Communist analysis in general, I would say that here I would concur with exiled Russian anarcho-syndicalists of Maximov group who believed that the victory of Stalinists over Hitler would lead to temporary destabilization of post-War "Soviet" regime, which would allow for the formation of independent working-class movement dissatisfied with new harsh conditions, yet confident of the possibility to triumph over its adversaries. Hitler's victory, on the contrary, would have resulted in the actual enslavement of Soviet workers and peasants. So in that sense they viewed WWII as a tragic occurrence, where, due to the previous defeat of revolutionary forces, the working class had temporarily to wait for the defeat of the most reactionary imperialist powers of the Axis, creating its own organizations and fighting against fascism independently from the Allies and USSR, yet viewing the hyper-reactionary Axis as (again, temporarily) the main enemy.

[Aurora]

Is it a coincidence that all the guys fobbing off the Nazis like they were just any other imperialist power on here appear to come from western european countries that Hitler approved of racially?
I wasn't aware you could tell 'race' from the internet. if your interested in trying to dismiss a political argument based on 'race' perhaps your on the wrong forum? :rolleyes:

Let me ask you something, would you support the USA and Britain bombing Spanish cities in the 40's? would this be a triumph for 'freedom'?

I believe the main misunderstanding here seems to be that some users apparently believe that the Nazi Germany was "merely" a power interested in conquest and exploitation, while Hitler's plans for East Europe clearly included genocide and mass deportation that no other imperialist power envisaged.
Many imperialist powers have used ethnic cleansing and genocide including the USA and Britain, infact the USA instigated the mass deportation of Japanese-Americans into concentration camps during the war, i see no reason to support their actions.

[Omsk]

I wasn't aware you could tell 'race' from the internet. if your interested in trying to dismiss a political argument based on 'race' perhaps your on the wrong forum?

You didn't understand,you come from Ireland,and you,along side the French,the British,and similar Western countries citizens and countries Hitler would occupy,like the invasion of France.And the life of most French would be horrible,thats for sure,but if Hitler invaded all Slavic countries,he would probably exterminate Slavs or use them as slaves,as they are - by the Nazi swines - untermensch.
There would be no future for Slavs in a Nazi occupied Europe,while for the other 'races' there would be a very miserable future. Therefore,the Victory over fascism and Nazism is certainly very important for East-Europeans.

[SacRedMan]

They didn't invited president Medvedev at the remember of D-Day, while the Red Army saved the *ss of the world!! :glare: Like they teach us about WWII these days:
-"We were attacked by Hitler... The great and strong heroic Americans came to rescue us from those evil ugly nazi's..." And I bet if you ask about Russia, you would have nonsense like "Naaah!! The only good commie is a death commie!"

[Dire Helix]

Where was the freedom for independent unions or working class action in Stalin's Union?

In a Nazi occupied USSR "the freedom for independent unions or working class action" would`ve been the least of anyone`s concerns.

[Sir Comradical]

Despite mainstream denunciations, and despite the purges, Stalin personally played a key role in the logistical expertise needed to defeat the Nazis, and not just moving industrial equipment en masse past the Urals.

Also true...

"Many allied visitors who called at the Kremlin during the war were astonished to see on how many issues, great and small, military, political or diplomatic, Stalin personally took the final decision. He was in effect his own Commander-in-Chief, his own minister of defence, his own quartermaster, his own minister of supply, his own foreign minister, and even his own chef de protocol. The stavka, the Red Army’s GHQ, was in his offices in the Kremlin. From his office desk, in constant and direct touch with the commands of the various fronts, he watched and directed the campaigns in the field. From his office desk, too, he managed another stupendous operation, the evacuation of 1,360 plants and factories from western Russia and the Ukraine to the Volga, the Urals and Siberia, an evacuation that involved not only machines and installations but millions of workmen and their families.

There is no doubt that he was their real Commander-in- Chief. His leadership was by no means confined to the taking of abstract strategic decisions, at which civilian politicians may excel. The avid interest with which he studied the technical aspects of modern warfare, down to the minute detail, shows him to have been anything but a dilettante. He viewed the war primarily from the angle of logistics...To secure reserves of manpower and supplies of weapons, in the right quantities and proportions, to allocate them and transport them to the right points at the right time, to amass a decisive strategic reserve and to have it ready for intervention at decisive moments – these operations made up nine-tenths of his task..."

- (Isaac Deutscher, Stalin)

[Sir Comradical]

Not the reactionary Warsaw uprising. It was more an attempt to grab power before the entering of Red Army in Warsaw than any kind of uprising against Nazi Germany. Actually, those cadres and common Polish people, who took part in the uprising were probably hones, but the leadership, the London based Armia Kraiova group was nothing but capitalist perpetrators. Basically, the uprising was defeated due to their greedy decisions. So, with due respect to the general cadres and Polish people of Warsaw, the Warsaw Ghetto uprising can not be considered to something properly against Nazi Germany.

Don't be silly. You do know that Polish communists also fought in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising?

Yeah I know about Armija Krajowa being puppets of British imperialism.

[Red Commissar]

Political comments aside, I honestly forgot the day. It's not on my radar honestly. Though their 65th anniversary last year would make any military nut cream themselves and it seems they did the same for this year.

They've got some interesting stuff out talking to the veterans of the conflict. RT has some interviwes with veterans:

http://victory1945.rt.com/

And here is a flash presentation made back in 2005 for the 60th anniversary. It presents the phases and steps of the war as well as commentary by some veterans they interviewed.

http://english.pobediteli.ru/

Obviously they're packed with nationalist propaganda but it's interesting from a historical standpoint.

[pranabjyoti]

Don't be silly. You do know that Polish communists also fought in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising?

Yeah I know about Armija Krajowa being puppets of British imperialism.
I know that, but the military decisions had been taken by the reactionary Armija Krajowa. I am not doubting about heroic efforts of the common fighters who fought in the uprising, but that's not the fact about the leadership of the uprising. While remembering about the Warsaw uprising, one must remember that.

[Sir Comradical]

I know that, but the military decisions had been taken by the reactionary Armija Krajowa. I am not doubting about heroic efforts of the common fighters who fought in the uprising, but that's not the fact about the leadership of the uprising. While remembering about the Warsaw uprising, one must remember that.

All I mentioned was their heroism, lol.

[Born in the USSR]

It's a day when all antistalinists weep bitterly.The hell with them!

Let's better look at the Victory.


http://gorod.tomsk.ru/uploads/42374/1304594401/0_2fc49_a9d845e7_orig1_2sc7pdc6xw4ko4wo0gwwwk40o_e jcuplo1l0oo0sk8c40s8osc4_th.jpg


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http://gorod.tomsk.ru/uploads/42374/1304594401/0_32e94_6a993b9b_orig_e5tkxkt5mg0kscsckg8gk8o4_ejc uplo1l0oo0sk8c40s8osc4_th.jpg

[Sir Comradical]

^^ Excellent photos!

[pranabjyoti]

Can this photos be colored by modern digital method.

[Sir Comradical]

Can this photos be colored by modern digital method.

Absolutely. You can do it on photoshop quite easily if you have a stylus-trackpad.

[hardlinecommunist]

Long Live the Memory of Comrade Stalin The Red Army and all of the Revolutionary Communist Partisans Glory and Honor to them Forever on this Great Day

[ZeroNowhere]

Is it a coincidence that all the guys fobbing off the Nazis like they were just any other imperialist power on here appear to come from western european countries that Hitler approved of racially?
Such as India? Please try harder next time.

[Sir Comradical]

Such as India? Please try harder next time.

You're Indian?

[Omsk]

Most of the people here claiming that it was a pointless war were from Western Countries. (ie not Slavic countries - that is the point)

[TheLeftStar]

Saw the Victory Day Parade live from Moscow on the 66th Anniversary of the Soviet Union's Victory over Nazi Germany. Impressive parade

[manic expression]

Most of the people here claiming that it was a pointless war were from Western Countries. (ie not Slavic countries - that is the point)
Theirs is an argument that defies explanation. Even if we leave aside the successful defense of the most progressive country in the world at the time, even if we leave aside the establishment of worker states throughout Europe...the Soviet victory ended the Holocaust and saved the peoples of Eastern Europe from wholesale slaughter. Surely, we can all celebrate this extraordinary triumph regardless of tendency.

Glory to the heroes, glory to their victory. May we be worthy of their legacy.

[Dire Helix]

Saw the Victory Day Parade live from Moscow on the 66th Anniversary of the Soviet Union's Victory over Nazi Germany. Impressive parade

Fun fact: the USSR didn`t hold annual parades(let alone military ones) on Victory Day. Red Square was used only for two annual celebrations - a military parade on the 7th of Novemeber and a peaceful demonstration on the 1st of May. The tradition to hold annual Victory Day parades was started by Yeltsin and continued by Putin. It`s pure militarism and nothing else.

Another fun fact: huge stands are set up to hide Lenin`s Mausoleum from view during the parade despite the fact that the Mausoleum was the central object of the original Victory Day parade in 1945.

[Bright Banana Beard]

I celebrate the Victory day mainly because the slaugther of the working class is halted on that day and fascism mainly morphed into other brand.

[Zhu Bailan]

In my opinion the best film that shows the atmosphere at that time:

I was nineteen (Konrad Wolf)

A film that tells the story of a young German, who fled the Nazis with his parents to Moscow and now, in early 1945, returns to Germany as a lieutenant in the Red Army. The film depicts the personal experiences of the director Konrad Wolf and of his friend Vladimir Gall in fictionalized form and deals with themes of the meaning of "homeland". In the figure, the 19-year-old Gregor Hecker Lieutenant Wolf processed his own experiences during the invasion of the Red Army in Germany in spring 1945. "It's primarily a film about human behavior, thinking at that time, very subtile, closely observed over many details mediator and atmospherically dense and emotionally urgent -. the result is a vivid mosaic of those last days of the war"

Part 1 - 7
(Unfortunately, in German but some with English comments)
1zcvDlYUvOk
Vbc-d04d5_k
0i0C777o0e4
RH-b0R9I0w8
Gkir7OZllNw
5iDPs5VwAuk
Ow8SykDBO6U

[Tifosi]

I celebrate the Victory day mainly because the slaugther of the working class is halted on that day

But, then again no it didn't!

All the states that sent workers to their deaths during the war kept on killing workers after the war. Even those 'nice' ones. Not at the same intensity or frequency but they have kept up the killing ever since.

[agnixie]

Is it a coincidence that all the guys fobbing off the Nazis like they were just any other imperialist power on here appear to come from western european countries that Hitler approved of racially?


Such as India? Please try harder next time.

That would be why Hitler tried to raise an indian SS division, his tireless hatred of all indians (admittedly his "approval" only extended to the Indo-Aryan north).

On the other hand, the resurgence of fascism makes this day feel a tiny bit hollow.

[Born in the USSR]

Soviet women at the war.

http://cs278.vkontakte.ru/u170995/38735900/x_df46e517.jpg

Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya,a partisan.In November,1941 she was seized by the Nazis and after brutal torture was hanged at the village square.It was a time when the Red Army had not yet won a single victory,when the Nazis were advancing and it seemed to many that they cannot be stop.Two millions men were already taken prisoners by Germans - four times more than those who were killed in battles!Zoya brought round mamy men having spat upon the enemies before the death:"I am not afraid to die! I am happy to die for my people!You'll hang me now, but I am not alone. There are two hundred million of us. You can't hang us all."That was her last words.She was 18...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/9/9a/%D0%9E%D0%BA%D1%82%D1%8F%D0%B1%D1%80%D1%8C%D1%81%D 0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F%2C_%D0%9C%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%8F _%D0%92%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%B5%D0%B2% D0%BD%D0%B0.jpg

Mariya Oktyabrskaya.After the death of her husband in 1941 she listed all her values ​​and means to build a T-34 tank.She wrote to Stalin:
"March 3, 1943
Dear comrade Stalin! In the battles for the Motherland was killed my husband - Regimental Commissar Oktyabrsky Ilya Fedotovich. For his death, for the deathes of all the Soviet people, tortured by the fascist barbarians,I want to take revenge on the fascist dogs;I contributed to the State Bank my life savings - 50 000 rubles to build the tank. I ask to call the tank "Fighting helpmate" and send me to the front as the driver of the tank. I have the specialty of the chauffeur, and I know how to handle a machine gun."
Mariya Oktyabrskaya since October 1943 fought at her tank on the Western Front.She died in March,1944.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/f/f5/Zelenko_E.I.jpg

Yekaterina Zelenko,Soviet aviatress. She is the only woman ever to have performed an air ramming. Following the German invasion, Zelenko made forty flights (also at night) and participated in twelve air combats with enemy fighters On September 12, 1941, Zelenko's Su-2 was attacked by seven Me-109s. After Zelenko ran out of ammunition, she launched a top-down air ramming which tore an Me-109 into two as the propeller hit the German aircraft's tail. The Su-2 she was piloting exploded though, and Zelenko was pulled out of cockpit. The air combat was observed by local residents who identified her body. On May 5, 1990 Zelenko was awarded the title of the Hero of the Soviet Union posthumously. Zelenko's husband Pavel Ignatenko also died in air combat in 1943.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v36/Vincent2/Forums/devushki/chast1/3.jpg

The Hero of the Soviet Union Lyudmila Pavlichenko.The worker of Kiev plant "Arsenal",the student of the University and the most productive female sniper - 309 killed (including 36 snipers).Aryan men were falling to her feet in the true sence of the word!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v36/Vincent2/Forums/devushki/chast1/2.jpg

The Hero of the Soviet Union Lidia Litvyak. The most productive female fighter of WWII. She has 14 downed enemy planes.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v36/Vincent2/Forums/devushki/chast1/8.jpg


Alexandra Samusenko,the commander of a tank battalion.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v36/Vincent2/Forums/devushki/chast2/1.jpg



Natalya Meklin was a much decorated World War II combat pilot in one of the three women-only Soviet air regiments. They were nicknamed the 'Night Witches' by their German opponents. When she was 19, in 1942 she joined the Night Witches, piloting a Po-2 light bomber, and by the end of the war had flown 980 night missions.Thge Hero of the Soviet Unoin.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v36/Vincent2/Forums/devushki/chast1/10.jpg

Heroes of the Soviet Union Marina Chechneva and Ekaterina Ryabova.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v36/Vincent2/Forums/devushki/chast1/6.jpg

Marya Dolina,the deputy of a squadron commander,the Hero of the Soviet Union.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/Leyla_Mammadbeyova.JPG/477px-Leyla_Mammadbeyova.JPG


Leila Mammadbeyova,the first female pilot of the East ( born in Azerbaijan). And at that time for the withdrawal of paranzhi in public places in Muslim countries women could be stoned.
She was refused to fight in World War II as at the time she was raising four children (she had six overall). Despite the Baku Airclub closing down due to war conditions, Mammadbeyova managed to launch glider and parachutist courses of her own, where she trained hundreds of combat pilots and around 4,000 paratroopers. Two of her students later became Heroes of the Soviet Union.

http://cs278.vkontakte.ru/u170995/38735900/x_09eef9f0.jpg

Marite Melnikaite,Lithuanian partisan,a volunteer. In July 1943,was captured by a punitive detachment. After severe torture was shot. She was 20 ...

http://cs278.vkontakte.ru/u170995/38735900/x_5748e970.jpg

Heroes of the Soviet Union Natalia Kovshova, Maria Polivanov.
In the battle of Novgorod in 1943 they were surrounded by the Nazis. They beat off the enemies to the last cartridge and blew themselves up along with the Nazi by a grenade. Two friends, two young girls (22 and 23 years)...

http://cs278.vkontakte.ru/u170995/38735900/x_8f5b43a7.jpg

The first female Hero of the Soviet Union and the Hero of Socialist Labor Valentine Grizodubova,Soviet aviatress.

http://cs278.vkontakte.ru/u170995/38735900/x_0a4bdcf4.jpg

The family Cof cossack Zubenko. Gordi Zubenko -a batallion commissar, his wife Evdokia - a cook, the eldest daughter Natalia -a machine-gunner, the youngest daughter - Nina - medical orderly,the son - Alexander - a machine- gunner.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/6/64/Stepanova.jpg


Epistiniya Stepanova (18 November 1874, the Russian Empire - February 7, 1969, USSR) - the mother of nine (!) sons who died in wars.

* Stepanov, Aleksandr Mikhailovich (1901-1918) shot by the Whites at the civil war;
* Stepanov, Fyodor Mikhailovich (1912-1939) was killed in battle with the Japanese in Khalkhin Gol;
* Stepanov, Pavel (1919-1941) died at the Great Patriotic War;
* Stepanov, Ivan Mikhailovich (1915-1943) died at the Great Patriotic War. He was buried in a mass grave in the village Drachkovo Smolevichi district, Minsk region;
Stepanov *, Vasiliy Mikhailovich (1908-1943) died at the Great Patriotic War. He was buried in a mass grave in the village Surskij-Mykhailivka the Dnipropetrovsk;
* Stepanov, Ilya Mikhailovich (1917-1943) died 14 July 1943 at the Battle of Kyrskoy arc, buried in a mass grave in the village Afonasove, Kaluga region;
* Stepanov, Aleksandr Mikhailovich (1923-1943) died at the Great Patriotic War,the Hero of the Soviet Union (posthumously);
Stepanov *, Philip M. (1910-1945) died in the camp Forelkruz near Paderborn;
* Stepanov, Nikolai Mikhailovich (1903-1953) returned from the Great Patriotic War disabled and died of his wounds.

Saving private Rayan,yes...

[HEAD ICE]

CELEBRATE THE VICTORY AGAINST FASCISM!! WWII WAS A WORKERS' WAR! JUST LOOK AT THE PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_u7ryccJN3ZQ/SwI7nCmLAAI/AAAAAAAAAxw/9l8YcLacabA/s1600/nagasaki.jpg
http://www.exploratorium.edu/nagasaki/journey/30.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-8ri68PgPk5c/TV0L_SdjqdI/AAAAAAAAIZE/FPagGEhOhEs/s1600/PC06.jpg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40820000/jpg/_40820913_bodies-afp-300.jpg
http://www.promethea.org/Misc_Compositions/FightingFutureWar/firebombedTokyo.jpg

THIS IS WHAT THE BRAVE MEN AND WOMEN DIED FOR!! DON'T DESECRATE THEIR MEMORY!!!

[black magick hustla]

here comes the flood of jerkoffs and their pictures of tanks and militaristic slongns. to hell with the bureacratic pigs of the east and the imperialist colonizers of the west. talk about the heorism of WWII to indians, when millions of them starved to death because of britain´s war policies. our ancestors died for nothing, and I piss on the graves of the stalins, churchills, roosevelts etc, as some of the greatest criminals and figureheads of the most criminal and heinous act done against humanity in probably all the history of civilization.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

Both of my grandfathers fought for the U.S. in WWII (in Europe). Neither one talked much about it at any time in their lives -- even when asked. When they did make any slight mention of it, they both said it was the most horrific experience of their lives. They were ripped from their homes and thrown into battle against people they had never met, let alone have some kind of personal animosity toward. Neither one ever glorified it in any way.

I don't know if they are the exception, but their feelings struck me as a genuine response for two young workers used as pawns in a massive imperialist slaughter. They say war is hell, and it must be, because they were actually happy to get back to the filthy depths of the coal mines and mills they worked in.

[Marxach-Léinínach]

here comes the flood of jerkoffs and their pictures of tanks and militaristic slongns. to hell with the bureacratic pigs of the east and the imperialist colonizers of the west. talk about the heorism of WWII to indians, when millions of them starved to death because of britain´s war policies. our ancestors died for nothing, and I piss on the graves of the stalins, churchills, roosevelts etc, as some of the greatest criminals and figureheads of the most criminal and heinous act done against humanity in probably all the history of civilization.

Who's celebrating the role of Britain, America etc.? We're celebrating the role of the freedom fighters ie. the Red Army and the partisans throughout occupied Europe.

[Reznov]

Empty rhetoric in this thread. A thread like this with slogans and no content really shouldn't be in history as its crowing, not discussion.

The many workers, soldiers and civilians who lost their lives for one rival imperialism over another.

But it sure does make us feel important.

[Omsk]

Cut with the negative,naive posts,I guess you western people will never understand...And,no,I'm not going to repeat myself on this matter,Its useless.

[Sir Comradical]

here comes the flood of jerkoffs and their pictures of tanks and militaristic slongns. to hell with the bureacratic pigs of the east and the imperialist colonizers of the west. talk about the heorism of WWII to indians, when millions of them starved to death because of britain´s war policies. our ancestors died for nothing, and I piss on the graves of the stalins, churchills, roosevelts etc, as some of the greatest criminals and figureheads of the most criminal and heinous act done against humanity in probably all the history of civilization.

What do you have against tanks? They're an objective necessity in war. None of us defend British imperialism so I don't see why you'd bring up British policies in India. Anyway what were the workers & peasants of the USSR, Yugoslavia, Greece and Albania supposed to do when the Axis waged an imperialist war on them?

[black magick hustla]

What do you have against tanks? They're an objective necessity in war. None of us defend British imperialism so I don't see why you'd bring up British policies in India. Anyway what were the workers & peasants of the USSR, Yugoslavia, Greece and Albania supposed to do when the Axis waged an imperialist war on them?
it does not matter what they were "supposed" to do. it is like asking some man going to the electric chair "what is he supposed to do". what internationalists did, however, was agitate to turn the imperialist war into civil war, hide jews, and end up dead in an alley/camps.

[Sir Comradical]

it does not matter what they were "supposed" to do. it is like asking some man going to the electric chair "what is he supposed to do". what internationalists did, however, was agitate to turn the imperialist war into civil war, hide jews, and end up dead in an alley/camps.

Let's take a concrete example, the Greek Resistance ELAS. How should they have turned the war between nations into a war between classes? Sloganeering doesn't help when fascists are burning your villages and executing innocent people for sport.

[Marxach-Léinínach]

I think all the haters in this thread really need to watch the movie "Come and See"

[Tifosi]

Cut with the negative, naive posts, I guess you western people will never understand...

How can you say WW2 was a "peoples war"? How is a war where millions of workers were sent to their deaths by Fascist's, Western Imperalist and Stalinists alike a 'peoples war'?

How does that make sense? Like you could have just come have come out and said "it was a shit time, thank fucks it's over". Why the need to wrap it all up as a 'peoples war'

How did victory in this war free anyone from Capitalist oppression?

I guess I should have just asked my grandad when he was alive how been sent to the otherside of the world to fight the Japanese 'freed' him.

[Marxach-Léinínach]

and how many hundreds of millions of Jews, Slavs, Chinese, Koreans and all other "inferiors" would've been killed by the Germans and Japanese if they'd won?

[Omsk]

Of for hells sake,it was a peoples war because the people defeated fascism,Chinese,Slavs and many other 'inferior' people had but one cause,victory over fascism,because if Nazism won,they would have been exterminated.Enough of this,Im not repeating myself after this post.

[black magick hustla]

Let's take a concrete example, the Greek Resistance ELAS. How should they have turned the war between nations into a war between classes? Sloganeering doesn't help when fascists are burning your villages and executing innocent people for sport.
Which is what the allies did too.

[LegendZ]

it does not matter what they were "supposed" to do. it is like asking some man going to the electric chair "what is he supposed to do". what internationalists did, however, was agitate to turn the imperialist war into civil war, hide jews, and end up dead in an alley/camps.So you would have prefer'd all the nations to just capitulate at the first sign of aggression from the Germans and Japanese? I guess it would have been ok to just let the people of those countries under Fascist rule just give up their Jews and Slavs and other "undesirables"as long as there was no civil war and the imperialists didn't get involved.


How can you say WW2 was a "peoples war"? How is a war where millions of workers were sent to their deaths by Fascist's, Western Imperalist and Stalinists alike a 'peoples war'?

How does that make sense? Like you could have just come have come out and said "it was a shit time, thank fucks it's over". Why the need to wrap it all up as a 'peoples war'

How did victory in this war free anyone from Capitalist oppression?
The victory freed people from Fascist oppression. It freed people from Auschwitz-Birkenau. Does it matter whether or not people were freed from capitalist oppression? Millions of people were killed for being Jews or Slavs or having disability's. Millions more MIGHT have been killed had this war no happened. I'm not saying thank god for this war. I'm just saying this war saved a lot of people who might have died because of who they were. Yes it was a peoples war because millions of people fought against fascists. it doesn't have to be an overthrow of capitalism to be called a people's war. Most of the fighting was done by people FOR people. So yes it is a people war regardless of whether or not capitalism was overthrown. If you think otherwise then fuck you. You're just a pos armchair revolutionary.
wikipedia(.)org/wiki/War_among_the_people

[Sir Comradical]

Which is what the allies did too.

The western allies collaborated with the fascists while the USSR and the CPs of the Balkans in particular were preparing for the war that would eventually be imposed on them. In any case how is a resistance movement like the Yugoslav Partisans or ELAS for example, supposed to practically work to turn the war between nations into a war between classes? How do they prevent themselves from supposedly stooping to the level of the western Allies which you accuse them of doing?