Just wondering about the "Holodomor" conspiracy theories...

[Toppler]

Why if the 1932-1933 USSR famine was supposed to wipe out Ukrainians, apart from the fact it affected all grain producing regions of the USSR not just Ukraine, why did Ukraine survive all famines before then?

This "famine-genocide" bullshit conveniently forgets that you cannot wipe out an entire people by a famine and that it is not like Ukraine before 1933 was a famine free zone, EVERY pre-industrial agricultural society had occasional famines.

It pretty much relies on emotional reaction to horrible images of emaciated kids, most of these actually from the 1921 Volga famine. This is superficially similiar to the Holocaust pictures with starved prisoners, disregarding that a famine is not a systematic effort to kill somebody and that in every famine people look like concentration camps victims, not just the 1932-33 USSR one.

Here are pictures from the 1877 colonial Indian famine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:India-famine-family-crop-420.jpg .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Famine_in_India_Natives_Waiting_for_Relief_in _Bangalore.jpg
http://www.oldindianphotos.in/2011/03/indian-famine-sufferers-magic-lantern.html

But noo, this was not a genocide... but the one under Stalin was! This despite the fact that 60 million people died in the 19th century colonial India because of famine...

[bcbm]

a pressing concern for working people everywhere

[Ocean Seal]

Why if the 1932-1933 USSR famine was supposed to wipe out Ukrainians, apart from the fact it affected all grain producing regions of the USSR not just Ukraine, why did Ukraine survive all famines before then?

This "famine-genocide" bullshit conveniently forgets that you cannot wipe out an entire people by a famine and that it is not like Ukraine before 1933 was a famine free zone, EVERY pre-industrial agricultural society had occasional famines.

If anything is guilty of famine genocide its capitalism. And if Stalin tried to wipe-out the Ukraine then the capitalists are trying to wipe out the entire Third World.

Also I think that this thread should be in the History sub-forum.

[Leftie]

This should probably be in History. But I agree, the idea that it was genocide is nonsense.

[Omsk]

Don't derail and spam the thread,just move it to history.

[Nolan]

Iirc, "holodomor" has specific connotations.

The Soviet Famine, or Great Famine was a disaster, not a genocide.

[Ocean Seal]

Don't derail and spam the thread,just move it to history.
Where did I derail the thread? I just postulated that saying that Stalin attempted to starve the Ukraine purposely is something that backfires on the capitalists being that it is a ridiculous claim and can be used both ways. Also I can't move the thread to history being that I am not a mod.

[Omsk]

Where did I derail the thread? I just postulated that saying that Stalin attempted to starve the Ukraine purposely is something that backfires on the capitalists being that it is a ridiculous claim and can be used both ways. Also I can't move the thread to history being that I am not a mod.
No,not you,you just posted faster than me comrade.

[pranabjyoti]

Basically, it's something related to the collectivization and the pimps of capitalist imperialism actually want to point out that the "collectivization policy" is responsible for the genocide. Same rhetoric has also been barked about Mao's China during the Great Leap Forward period.
Comrade Toppler, kindly google with "The Stalin Society" and you will find an website. In that website, a good discussion with sources was given about the "Famine of Ukraine". So far, the source of information about this was a book by Robert Conquest, a Nazi sympathizer and basically most information are false. In history section of revleft, you can find some threads regarding that matter.

[Nolan]

I'm pretty sure Conquest isn't a "nazi sympathizer."

[Philosophical Materialist]

I'm pretty sure Conquest isn't a "nazi sympathizer."

I agree. I don't think he is pro-Nazi per se, but he uncritically used Nazi sources and testimony from pro-Nazi collaborators in his descriptions of the Ukranian famine. He rehabilitated WW2 Nazi propaganda as part of Cold War politics as a stick to beat the Soviet Union with.

[Commissar Rykov]

I agree. I don't think he is pro-Nazi per se, but he uncritically used Nazi sources and testimony from pro-Nazi collaborators in his descriptions of the Ukranian famine. He rehabilitated WW2 Nazi propaganda as part of Cold War politics as a stick to beat the Soviet Union with.

Exactly, while not necessarily pro-Nazi it is completely intellectually dishonest what he did. Using the Nazi Propaganda Machine as a proper historical source should be embarrassing.