Historical Communist role models?

[Heathen Communist]

Which historical communist (or anarchist, socialist, whatever) do you most admire and look up to.
I have to say for me it is Che.

[Tommy4ever]

Rosa. :star3:

[Spartacus.]

Stalin

[Omsk]

Lenin.Erich Honecker.

[Ocean Seal]

The workers of the world.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2400/2458481453_f10273b039_z.jpg


http://img.ibtimes.com/www/data/images/full/2010/05/05/7781-athenian-demonstrator.jpg


http://southasiarev.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/cpn-demonstration.jpg

http://www.socialistworld.net/img/article/2010-05-02Grafik173789206270637054.jpg



http://lh6.ggpht.com/peter.g.boyle/SBgJVNU9VMI/AAAAAAAABxs/cckMGx4kVcI/aksi%2029%20april.jpg?imgmax=800

The workers of the world collectively endure the hardships of capitalism and become themselves the true vehicle of change towards a socialist world.

Among us there are many great heroes who suffered but the contribution of the working class as a whole are the solid backbone of our movement.

But in addition to my fellow workers there have been those who have contributed to the theory and movement of our cause.

To recognize a single most sacrificing socialist. I can't do it. Lenin, Luxemburg, Che are among my greatest heroes but there are many more who have died to advance socialism and fight the greatest evil capitalism.

[Leftie]

I'd say Che.

[Reznov]

The workers of the world.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2400/2458481453_f10273b039_z.jpg


http://img.ibtimes.com/www/data/images/full/2010/05/05/7781-athenian-demonstrator.jpg


http://southasiarev.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/cpn-demonstration.jpg

http://www.socialistworld.net/img/article/2010-05-02Grafik173789206270637054.jpg



http://lh6.ggpht.com/peter.g.boyle/SBgJVNU9VMI/AAAAAAAABxs/cckMGx4kVcI/aksi%2029%20april.jpg?imgmax=800

The workers of the world collectively endure the hardships of capitalism and become themselves the true vehicle of change towards a socialist world.

Among us there are many great heroes who suffered but the contribution of the working class as a whole are the solid backbone of our movement.

But in addition to my fellow workers there have been those who have contributed to the theory and movement of our cause.

To recognize a single most sacrificing socialist. I can't do it. Lenin, Luxemburg, Che are among my greatest heroes but there are many more who have died to advance socialism and fight the greatest evil capitalism.

Your not getting any extra Leftist points for that post, over achiever!

[Omsk]

@RedBrother: Cliché..
The question is clear and simple: what historical communist do you admire/look up to..

[Ocean Seal]

@RedBrother: Cliché..
The question is clear and simple: what historical communist do you admire/look up to..
The class conscious workers have historically been a part of our struggle. But in my post, I did name a few "big name" socialists.

[Toppler]

Alexander Dubcek.

[Agent Ducky]

Che for sure. Yeah :D. I know everyone's gonna say that, but Che deserves it. :che:

[Impulse97]

Guevara, Lenin, Luxembourg and Sankara.

[Madvillainy]

i pick che for being the good looking face of stalinism and cuz he helped butcher and imprison counter-revolutionary anarchists and trots in cuba. oh and also because he thought a few dozen armed muppets could overthrow capitalism.

[Comrade J]

Nobody really. I think true leftism - whether Marxism or Anarchism - kinda inclines us to deviate away from the culture we have now of icons and role models, and be less focused on a specific individual or 'leader' but on collective action and its consequences.

I'm not slating anyone who looks up to Che, Lenin or whoever, they encourage a lot of people to learn more about communism for themselves which can only be a good thing. But then hopefully gradually move on from (what I consider to be) somewhat nostalgic icon-veneration into realising that a figure like Che is only one man and worthy of respect but nothing more, because the cause he was fighting for is the important thing to learn about and discuss, not the man.

[Red Future]

I admire many Marxist Communists (and some Anarchists) really though in going to put as no one else has Ho Chi Minh

[Commissar Rykov]

Ho Chi Minh, Che, Fidel, Lenin, Stalin, Mao. Just to name a few.

[Tim Finnegan]

There's been some good ones listed so far, but no list would be complete without the great hero of Ireland, James Connolly, or the great hero of Scotland, John Maclean. The former, at least, is remembered for his involvement in Ireland's national liberation struggle, even if his politics are sometimes sidelined, but the latter is quite probably the most under-appreciated figure in modern Scottish history. (Top of my list for "stuff to do after the revolution" is to rename George Square in Glasgow "John Maclean Square". ;))

[graymouser]

Aside from the obvious (like Trotsky), James P. Cannon, the leader of the US SWP. Cannon particularly had a great way of relating socialist ideas, and was a great organizer for the revolution even if he never got there. His History of American Trotskyism is practically a manual on organization.

[Sir Comradical]

Lenin, Trotsky, Mao, Che, Thomas Sankara, Aris Velouchiotis...to name a few.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Boris Yeltsin.

[Optiow]

I admire all communists and anarchists in the struggle, however I do have some special favourites who I look up to:

Ho Chi Minh
James Connolly
'Che' Guevara
Rosa Luxemborg
Nestor Makhno
Huey Newton

These are some of the best from memory, but I admire all comrades who have struggled for the emancipation of mankind.

[Heathen Communist]

Lots of good ones here. I also like Ho Chi Minh, Lenin, Trotsky; pretty much all the ones that fought for the revolution without taking advantage of it (e.g. Stalin)

[Kamil]

You say Stalin fought for the revolution without taking advantage of it? Two of those you admire: Che Guevara and Ho Chi Minh were ardent supporters of Stalin, and both were resonsible for the death of Trotskyists.

[Johnny Kerosene]

Dora Maria Tellez. No major contributions to theory, but she was an important commander of the FSLN during it's revolutionary days.
And of course the big ones like Che and Lenin.
I'm not sure exactly where he fits in the political left, but Pancho Villa seems like a pretty cool guy.

EDIT: Oh my fuck, I forgot Sandino

[Chicxulub]

The leaders of liberation struggles that had massive odds against them...yet still pulled through and prevailed: Ho Chi Minh, Kim Il Sung, Lenin, Josef Stalin, Fidel Castro, Prince Souphanouvong, Feliks Dzherzhinsky, etc.

[Tim Finnegan]

I'm not sure exactly where he fits in the political left, but Pancho Villa seems like a pretty cool guy.
Yeah, he was cool. I don't think he had a specific ideology of revolutionary socialism like Zapata had, but he was definitely leaning to the left, and fought harder and better than even some of the best socialists.
Oh, and Zapata himself, while we're at it.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Zapataandvilla.png

Cool guys! :thumbup1:

[$lim_$weezy]

I think Kropotkin is my personal role model. Not only a political theorist, but also a geographer and evolutionary theorist. Plus, he was known to be a really nice guy.

Also, Rosa Luxemburg.

[Zav]

Emma Goldman, Peter Kropotkin, H.D. Thoreau, and Oscar Wilde if one counts him as being anarchist.

[Heathen Communist]

You say Stalin fought for the revolution without taking advantage of it? Two of those you admire: Che Guevara and Ho Chi Minh were ardent supporters of Stalin, and both were resonsible for the death of Trotskyists.

I do not say that any of these revolutionaries were completely and wholly good. Each and every one of them was wrong in some areas, and this must be accepted by the Left before we can begin using their ideas and models ourselves. I feel it is wrong to persecute other Leftists, or even followers of other political trends, even if Che, Ho Chi Minh, or any other admirable revolutionaries did so.
Even if Che and Bac Ho supported Stalin, it does not mean that admiration of their actions must necessarily imply admiration of Stalin's.

[red_rich]

i think Karl Marx should have a mention here somewhere.....;)

[Nanatsu Yoru]

Lenin.

[Lunatic Concept]

Robert Tressal.

[Kamil]

Fuck Pancho Villa, he was a serial rapist and corrupt supporter of the landed bourgeois, not revolutionary at all. do your resarch, he was NOTHING like Zapata

[Tifosi]

Jesus.

[PhoenixAsh]

Durruti

[Pretty Flaco]

I agree that we shouldn't look to strong leaders in socialism, but if I were to say anyone is greatly inspiring, it'd have to be Eugene Debs.

[Tim Finnegan]

Fuck Pancho Villa, he was a serial rapist and corrupt supporter of the landed bourgeois, not revolutionary at all. do your resarch, he was NOTHING like Zapata
For the first comment, every claim I've heard of Villa-the-rapist has come from right-wing American sources ranting about his raids in the US, and which seem to lean very heavily on an assumption of "brown person with a gun = rapist", while the second seems rather out of place given his notorious habit of appropriating hacienda for re-distribution among the peasantry, often freshly decorated with the brains of their former owners.

Perhaps some links, by way of evidence, would not go amiss?

[Kamil]

I was told that Villa was a rapist by the older Mexican dudes in my neighborhood growing up, as for the links lemme get to it

[CleverTitle]

I agree with a lot of the individuals already mentioned. I'll also say that I have a lot of respect for W.E.B. Du Bois as well.

[Paulappaul]

Errico Malatesta, Rosa Luxemburg, Nestor Makno, Ravachol and Marinus van der Lubbe.

[GallowsBird]

Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Castro, Guevara, Newton, Seale, Hoxha, Haywood, William Morris, Winstanely.

[freenation26]

Peter Kropotkin.

[Susurrus]

Makhno, Buenaventura Durruti(Spainsh Civil War hero), George Orwell, Abbie Hoffman, Bill Haywood(I.W.W. guy), Eugene Debs(Socialist Party USA and I.W.W. guy), Trotsky(when he's not massacring Kronstadters and the Black Army), Zapata, Camilo Cienfuegos(Anarchist in the Cuban revolution, third commander after Fidel and Che), Kim Jwa-jin(fought the Imperial Japanese and the Stalinist Chinese and created a short-lived anarchist zone in Shinmin) and Shūsui Kōtoku(introduced anarcho-communism to Japan).

[Ben Barton]

I would have to say Erich Honecker, Fidel Castro, Vladimir Lenin and Ernesto Guevara, may i ask people why they like Stalin? I really think he gave the soviet union a bad name and most Marxist-Leninist's agree he was good at war strategics, needed in world war two, yet he loved power too much, i compare his system to the horrific Juche in the DPRK or N. Korea.

[Cork Socialist]

Have to say Trotsky, James Connolly and Lenin for me :D
EDIT: forgot Marx and Engels :D

Trotsky and Lenin have been my most looked up to I must say.

[Old Man Diogenes]

In terms of whose brand of Anarchism I found most attractive it has to be Emma Goldman and Alexander Berkman.

[Coyote]

I'm a fan of Lenin, Stalin, Che, and Fidel. I also a pretty big fan of the original members of the Red Army Faction - Ulrike Meinhof, Andreas Baader, and Gudrun Ensslin.

[Arlekino]

I'm a fan of Lenin, Stalin, Che, and Fidel. I also a pretty big fan of the original members of the Red Army Faction - Ulrike Meinhof, Andreas Baader, Gudrun Ensslin, and Horst Mahler :)

Horst Mahler shifted to the extreme-right and holocaust denied how can be your favour communist?

[Coyote]

Horst Mahler shifted to the extreme-right and holocaust denied how can be your favour communist?

I actually never knew that O.o

Thanks for the heads up, comrade.

[Hebrew Hammer]

Ho Chi Minh, Lin Bao, Uncle Joe, Mao Tse-Tung, Louis Auguste Blanqui, Sergey Nechayev, Engels, Jiang Qing, Che, Mattathias, Judah Maccabeus and of course Vasily Zaytsev:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Jjlqv0YJMwA/TZtAh17v4WI/AAAAAAAAKWM/F98p7m7u4M8/s640/Vasily.Zaitsev.jpg

[Stalin Ate My Homework]

Jesus, Marx, Connolly, Lenin, Trotsky, Tito, Ho Chi Minh, Che and Castro. 'The human face of socialism'. :D

[Ilyich]

Marx, Engels, Berger, Debs, Luxemburg, Liebknecht, Pannekoek...

[Hebrew Hammer]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1e/Johannmost.jpg

[Mac]

Lenin, Marx, Engels, Trotsky, Kropotkin

[Zugunruhe]

Emma Goldman and Karl Marx.

[Smyg]

Every single anti-fascist of the Spanish Civil War and WW2.

[Revolutionary_Marxist]

Lenin, and Trotsky for me. Geogry Zhukov is great as well, but he's more of a military hero than a hero for the people.

[DarkPast]

I'd say Rosa Luxemburg as an activist, Karl Marx as a theroetician and Che as a war leader.

[Comrade Crow]

Johann Most, Ravachol, Mao, Marx, Bakunin, Makhno, Stalin, Khrushchev, Zaytsev, Ilich Ramírez Sánchez, Blanqui (obviously), Leon Czolgosz, Marinus van der Lubbe, Ho Chi Min, the Viet Cong, the Red Army, Émile Henry, Auguste Vaillant, Caserio and many others.

[a rebel]

Would I get any ass kissing cred if I said everyone on revleft?

[red1936]

Karl Marx, Friedrich Engles, Vladimir Lenin, Josef Stalin, Enver Hoxha

secondaries : Ho Chi Mihn, Kao Kang and Vlado Depecevic

[Omsk]

Vlado Depecevic


Vlado Dapcevic.;)

[Rusty Shackleford]

Otto Von Bismark/Willy I/Freddie III

[Tim Cornelis]

Must - not - derail thread - and - start - sectarian - flame - war. Aaarrggh.

I don't really have a leftist role model... Perhaps Gustav Landauer for his non-dogmatism, and participation in the November revolution.

Or maybe Anteo Zamboni

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/Anteo_Zamboni.jpg

but just because letting his name be forgotten is such a waste.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

Marx, Engels, Berger, Debs, Luxemburg, Liebknecht, Pannekoek...
No one is going to call out the guy who listed a right-wing social democrat?


Luxemburg, Malatesta, Parsons, Durruti, Haywood, probably forgetting a few others...

[Tim Finnegan]

Karl Marx, Friedrich Engles, Vladimir Lenin, Josef Stalin, Enver Hoxha

secondaries : Ho Chi Mihn, Kao Kang and Vlado Depecevic
These are all terrible role models. The only even halfway respectable ones are Marx and Engels, and they could only do what they did because they don't provide any real model of activity for contemporary communists (or, indeed, most communists then or since) who aren't petty bourgeois intellectuals with independent income streams.
Which is the trick, really- what's a "role model", exactly? Someone who actually presents a model of activity for us to follow, or just someone that we admire? It seems like it should be the former, in which case we can't just list people we admire, but people who actually present patterns of activity that we can productively follow, and even then perhaps only in part.

Durruti still works, though, because "Be awesome; stop when dead" is a universally effective MO. ;)

[Omsk]

Vladimir Lenin is a bad role model,and some unimportant,barely known militant is a great role model?

Pfff.

And,by the way,do you even know who Vlado Dapcevic was?

[Pretty Flaco]

Myself

[Tim Cornelis]

Vladimir Lenin is a bad role model,and some unimportant,barely known militant is a great role model?

Pfff.

And,by the way,do you even know who Vlado Dapcevic was?

Whether someone is a role model is not measured by his popularity or whether he is known or not--that's a ridiculous assertion.

[Omsk]

Whether someone is a role model is not measured by his popularity or whether he is known or not--that's a ridiculous assertion.


And the next time when you want to shine,you should actually read my post,i never made that "assertion",im just saying that a great man like Lenin,who worked so much for the revolution,and the first workers state,cant be a bad role model for communists,what is even more ridiculous,is that someone is saying that an anarchist militant who did barely anything in his life and was probably killed by his own men,is a good role model.
Do you people even read your own posts before you click the reply buton?

[Tim Cornelis]

And the next time when you want to shine,you should actually read my post,i never made that "assertion",im just saying that a great man like Lenin,who worked so much for the revolution,and the first workers state,cant be a bad role model for communists,what is even more ridiculous,is that someone is saying that an anarchist militant who did barely anything in his life and was probably killed by his own men,is a good role model.



and some unimportant,barely known militant is a great role model?


Do you people even read your own posts before you click the reply buton


im just saying that a great man like Lenin,who worked so much for the revolution,and the first workers state,cant be a bad role model for communists

A role model is someone you aspire to approximate in actions and thinking. As such there are countless reasons why I, as a communist and human being, think Lenin is a bad role model. Because what do I want? A humane society based on equality and freedom--human liberation. Lenin's policies, however:


Lenin repeatedly indicated that large-scale killing would be necessary to bring in his utopia, and did not shrink from this realization. His speeches and writings overflow with calls for blood: "Merciless war against these kulaks! Death to them." "We'll ask the man, where do you stand on the question of the revolution? Are you for it or against it? If he's against it, we'll stand him up against a wall." ... "The term 'bourgeoisie' the Bolsheviks applied loosely to two groups: those who by virtue of their background or position in the economy functioned as 'exploiters,' be they a millionaire industrialist or a peasant with an extra acre of land, and those who, regardless of their economic or social status, opposed Bolshevik policies." (Russia Under the Bolshevik Regime)


Lenin's secret police, the Cheka, pioneered the development of the modern slave labor (or "concentration") camp. Inmates were generally frankly treated as government-owned slaves, and used for the most demanding work - such as digging arctic canals - while receiving pitifully small rations. As Pipes explains, "Soviet concentration camps, as instituted in 1919, were meant to be a place of confinement for all kinds of undesirables, whether sentenced by courts or by administrative organs. Liable to confinement in them were not only individuals but also 'categories of individuals' - that is, entire classes: Dzerzhinskii at one point proposed that special concentration camps be erected for the 'bourgeoisie.' Living in forced isolation, the inmates formed a pool of slave labor on which Soviet administrative and economic institutions could draw at no cost." (The Russian Revolution) The number of people in these camps according to Pipes was about 50,000 prisoners in 1920 and 70,000 in 1923; many of these did not survive the inhuman conditions. The inmates might be bourgeoisie, or peasants, or members of other socialist factors such as the Mensheviks or the Social Revolutionaries, or members of ethnicities thought to be hostile to the Bolsheviks, such as the Don Cossacks. The death rates in these camps appear to have been in the extreme hardship range of 10-30%. While the number thus killed was only a small percentage of the total exterminated under Lenin's regime, it laid the foundation for Stalin's slave labor empire.


By far the largest number of unnatural deaths for which Lenin and his cohorts were responsible resulted from famine. Lenin and his regime tried to depict the famine as simply bad luck, but the truth is rather different. To feed his troops and keep the cities producing munitions, Lenin needed food. He got it by "requisitioning" it from the peasantry - demanding delivery of large sums of food for little or nothing in exchange. This led peasants to drastically reduce their crop production. In retaliation, Lenin often ordered the seizure of the food peasants had grown for their own subsistence, sometimes ordering the confiscation of their seed grain as a further sanction. The Cheka and the army began by shooting hostages, and ended by waging a second full-scale civil war against the recalcitrant peasantry.

The ultimate results of this war against the peasantry were devastating. Official Soviet reports admitted that fully 30 million Soviet citizens were in danger of death by starvation. The White forces shared little of the blame: as Pipes notes, the Civil War was essentially over by the beginning of 1920, but Lenin continued his harsh exploitation of the peasantry for yet another year. Moreover, the areas under White control had actually built up a food surplus. The horrific famine of 1921 was thus much less severe in 1920, because after the reconquest of the Ukraine and other White territories, the Reds shipped the Whites' grain reserves to Petrograd, Moscow, and other cities with less hunger but more political clout. Low estimates on the deaths from this famine are about 3 million; high estimates go up to 10 million - which would probably have been much higher if not for foreign relief efforts which Lenin had the good sense to permit. For perspective, the last severe famine in Russia hit in 1891-92, and cost about 400,000 lives.

The famine ended soon after Lenin relaxed his choke-hold on the peasantry, but he showed no sign of remorse for what his policies had done. Other Bolsheviks were shaken by the events, but Lenin's successor, Joseph Stalin, learned only to husband his strength until the peasantry could be utterly broken.


Under Lenin's rule - unlike that of his successors - executions played a far more important role than deaths in forced labor camps. The primary function of Lenin's secret police, the Cheka, was carrying out summary executions of "class enemies" in what came to be known as the Red Terror. The exact number murdered is usually estimated at between 100,000 and 500,000, but the chaotic wartime conditions make the accounting especially difficult. Large-scale executions of hostages began after a failed effort of the Social Revolutionaries to seize power in mid-1918. (The hundreds of hostages shot in "retaliation," however, not only did not participate in the failed coup, but almost invariably had no affiliation of any kind with the SRs). From then on the Red Terror turned in every conceivable direction: execution of the bourgeoisie and Czarist sympathizers; execution of White POWs and friendly civilian populations; and finally execution of Lenin's socialist opponents.

EDIT: I would also like to point out that you admire Lenin for his participation in the Russian revolution, yet there is no reason to think Durruti did not equally devoted his life to the revolution. He inspired the working class, and 500,000 people attended his 'funeral'. Moreover, he was killed by his own gun cleaning it. Not by fascists, not by his own men, but a gun accident.

And I'm sure all of the above named historical facts about Lenin are bourgeois lies. If a truth is inconvenient or uncomfortable, it's always bourgeois lies, innit?

[Zostrianos]

Karl Marx, Rosa Luxemburg, Salvador Allende

[Ostrinski]

And the next time when you want to shine,you should actually read my post,i never made that "assertion",im just saying that a great man like Lenin,who worked so much for the revolution,and the first workers state,cant be a bad role model for communists,what is even more ridiculous,is that someone is saying that an anarchist militant who did barely anything in his life and was probably killed by his own men,is a good role model.
Do you people even read your own posts before you click the reply buton?What? I'm a Leninist but Durruti is one of the greatest role models you could have.

[Omsk]

Stalin's slave labor empire


Where did you get those facts,the Black book of communism or something?
I guess your an anti-communist,oh well,most of you end up that way.



What? I'm a Leninist but Durruti is one of the greatest role models you could have.


Blah blah,give 2 real,worthy reasons why he is one of the greatest role models.



EDIT: I would also like to point out that you admire Lenin for his participation in the Russian revolution, yet there is no reason to think Durruti did not equally devoted his life to the revolution. He inspired the working class, and 500,000 people attended his 'funeral'. Moreover, he was killed by his own gun cleaning it. Not by fascists, not by his own men, but a gun accident.



I admire Lenin because of his great working spirit,strong will,huge revolutionary skill and leadership,for his heroism and devotion for the fight against oppresors and backward elements,for his many actions,words,books,i admire him because he was the greatest leftist philosopher,greatest communist and revolutionary,and probably the most important communist ever.


And I'm sure all of the above named historical facts about Lenin are bourgeois lies. If a truth is inconvenient or uncomfortable, it's always bourgeois lies, innit?

Historical facts?Those are not facts,but anti-communist propaganda and something that we should never see on RevLeft,but rather on Stormfront or some forum like that.That is not truth.




500,000 people attended his 'funeral'


That brings no weight to your argument,how does that measure if someone was a good role model?If we are going to play it like that,how many people visited Lenins funeral?How many millions?And his grave?

[ComradeGrant]

Wait are you implying that Durruti is hardly known? He was a major force in the Spanish Civil War, there was an entire column bearing his name. Just because his side didn't win doesn't mean that his actions and ideas weren't inspirational.

[Omsk]

Compared to Lenin,he is a fly.

[Ostrinski]

i admire him because he was the greatest leftist philosopher,greatest communist and revolutionary,and probably the most important communist ever.jesus christ

[Ostrinski]

Blah blah,give 2 real,worthy reasons why he is one of the greatest role models.Pretty much every reason you gave for Lenin works for Durruti too.

[Omsk]

jesus christ


Oh so i guess we follow that path also?Interesting.


Pretty much every reason you gave for Lenin works for Durruti too.

Your arguments fall around you,if it works for Durruti,it means Lenin is also one of the greatest role-models ever.And you and the rest of the group here,seem to believe he is not.

[Ostrinski]

Oh so i guess we follow that path also?Interesting.



Your arguments fall around you,if it works for Durruti,it means Lenin is also one of the greatest role-models ever.And you and the rest of the group here,seem to believe he is not.what are you even talking about now? are you high? am i high? is this real life?

[Prometeo liberado]

Where are all the women besides Rosa L? How about Emma Goldman! Ass kickin an names takin. She was the baddest cup o coffee on the street!


http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1520155502133&id=3629cea87bbea142ea90f0c04a46bd4ahttp://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1520155502133&id=3629cea87bbea142ea90f0c04a46bd4ahttp://ts1.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1436338356948&id=e45ed691060c0a94d340f04b1ccee3dehttp://ts1.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1436338356948&id=e45ed691060c0a94d340f04b1ccee3dehttp://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1534179743463&id=fd7e10ec078ce856c4c9c4cdf25ef5d3http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1534179743463&id=fd7e10ec078ce856c4c9c4cdf25ef5d3http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1450665450249&id=79062536675e94f87dc4fb85fe62e586http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1450665450249&id=79062536675e94f87dc4fb85fe62e586

[ComradeGrant]

If you're a Leninist then Durruti is a fly, but as an Anarchist Durruti is better than Lenin in literally every way. I don't agree with Lenin's ideas, so he's not a role model for me. I agree with Durruti's, so he's a role model.

[Ostrinski]

Where are all the women besides Rosa L?
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-p0mg_5ktoxg/TuSUrPEVK7I/AAAAAAAACbg/xOe4dqdhWMs/Schaft.jpg
http://www.onthisdeity.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/6300_1242223215597_1229823713_30732203_644496_n1.j pg

[Omsk]

what are you even talking about now? are you high? am i high? is this real life?

You can now pretend your unaware of things,all right,its an acceptable escape route,now that you cant even reply.

Better read those Trotskyite newspapers for better arguments.


If you're a Leninist then Durruti is a fly, but as an Anarchist Durruti is better than Lenin in literally every way. I don't agree with Lenin's ideas, so he's not a role model for me. I agree with Durruti's, so he's a role model

And the user who named Lenin as his role model was a Leninist.And yet someone said Lenin was a bad role model,well,for ultra-leftists,anarchists and whatnot,he is a bad role model,for Leninists,he is not.

[Veovis]

Kollontai

http://www.russian-women.net/images/Alexandra_Kollontai.gif

[Rooster]

Where did you get those facts,the Black book of communism or something?
I guess your an anti-communist,oh well,most of you end up that way.

Are you denying that there were forced labour camps? Or are you denying the scale of those camps? Cause, you'd be giving false information on both if you were. The labour camps existed and they contributed a fair bit to the economy.

[Ismail]

There were forced labor camps. Their role in economic development has been overstated by bourgeois historians (although they weren't negligible) and the gulag system in the USSR became an economic liability by the early 50's. The Economics of Forced Labor: The Soviet Gulag (published by Hoover Institution Press; hardly sympathetic to Stalin) is a good read on this subject.

Also the ironic thing about Durruti is that he actually worked with Soviet forces in Spain and was praised by the Soviets as a result. To many Soviets he was the "good anarchist," as it were, and it was a common view amongst them that fellow anarchists had supposedly killed him for his collaboration.

In-re Hoxha as a role model, I don't see a big issue. Peter R. Prifti notes in Socialist Albania since 1944 (MIT Press, again not disposed towards sympathetic portrayals) that the Albanians considered themselves at the forefront of all sorts of struggles and that they were creating models for other backwards countries in terms of women's rights, agricultural and industrial policy, foreign policy, and to a lesser extent treatment of religion. Most people know Hoxha as a guy who struggled against revisionism, though, and that isn't hard to admire or serve as a role model. Books like Imperialism and the Revolution (http://enver-hoxha.net/content/content_english/books/books-imperialism_and_revolution.htm) and Eurocommunism is Anti-Communism (http://enver-hoxha.net/content/content_english/books/books-eurocommunism_is_anti-communism.htm) are also basically "this is how Marxist-Leninists should act" sort of works in addition to exposing revisionism of the Maoist and Eurocommunist (reformist) variety.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

Where are all the women besides Rosa L?
:confused: I listed Parsons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_Parsons)...

what is even more ridiculous,is that someone is saying that an anarchist militant who did barely anything in his life and was probably killed by his own men,is a good role model.
Do you people even read your own posts before you click the reply buton?
Do you ever read books and information before you click the reply button?
I'm fine with you liking Lenin. However, to say Durruti did nothing before the war is laughable. He helped protect the working-class neighborhoods, committed acts of sabotage while on strike, and much more. Hell, he robbed banks to secure funds for CNT activities, which includes but not limited to: setting up schools and classes for illiterate adults, mass propaganda, organizing campaigns, community centers, etc.

Durruti was a badass.

[dodger]

An easy choice for me American, Texan but naturalized Briton. What might be deemed an interesting life, certainly lived through interesting times. In his 90's still contributing to the struggle of workers. William(Bill) Ash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjlifPxfMzo

http://www.google.com.ph/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=bill%20william%20ash%20marxist&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FWilliam _Ash_(pilot)&ei=1EwQT66aFYfxrQeS3L3jAQ&usg=AFQjCNGeBG_96PfnL1tm7IZwPVUTENKw1A

http://www.google.com.ph/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=bill%20william%20ash%20marxist&source=web&cd=3&sqi=2&ved=0CC4QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.co.uk%2FMarxist-Morality-William-Ash%2Fdp%2F0703003135&ei=1EwQT66aFYfxrQeS3L3jAQ&usg=AFQjCNEmB1DsAFYsifTb-XuXa7drJkU5Ag

http://www.google.com.ph/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=bill%20william%20ash%20marxist&source=web&cd=6&sqi=2&ved=0CEUQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.mac.com%2Fphilkatzone%2Fthink ing-hands%2F0006.html&ei=1EwQT66aFYfxrQeS3L3jAQ&usg=AFQjCNEqZKjdrfGS5yWTAyuxcTgnYxXvpQ

[Omsk]

Do you ever read books and information before you click the reply button?
I'm fine with you liking Lenin. However, to say Durruti did nothing before the war is laughable. He helped protect the working-class neighborhoods, committed acts of sabotage while on strike, and much more. Hell, he robbed banks to secure funds for CNT activities, which includes but not limited to: setting up schools and classes for illiterate adults, mass propaganda, organizing campaigns, community centers, etc.

Durruti was a badass.

Yes,i read about him,and his general role in the anarchist movement,but i simply dont see how the things that you mentioned make him a great role model.
Lenins writings and ideas that were a century ahead of his time have much more weight than a couple of strikers and bank robberies.



Are you denying that there were forced labour camps? Or are you denying the scale of those camps? Cause, you'd be giving false information on both if you were. The labour camps existed and they contributed a fair bit to the economy.

Im am not blind,i am aware that the prisons existed,but it was hardly a slave labour empire.Other than that,there are many basic anti-communist lies and propaganda in the post the anarchist wrote.

[His Dudeness]

Ché, Lenin, Marx, Engels, Stalin, Ho Chi Minh, Fidel, Andreas Baader and Jack London.

As a Turkish Communist I admire the works of Mahir Cayan and Dursun Karatas very much to.

[Tim Finnegan]

Yes,i read about him,and his general role in the anarchist movement,but i simply dont see how the things that you mentioned make him a great role model.
Lenins writings and ideas that were a century ahead of his time have much more weight than a couple of strikers and bank robberies.
Is the same Lenin that was still hammering on about the necessity of the vanguard party a good decade after the 1905 Revolution proved him wrong? Or was this perhaps some different Lenin?

[RedScot24/11/1859]

Trotsky and Lenin, both great if slightly psychotic men.

[Kadir Ateş]

Um, the working class when it has been at times revolutionary?

Oh right, this is RevLeft: I meant to say Stalin, Mao, Hoxha, Ho Chi Minh, Hugo Chavez, etc.

[Tim Cornelis]

Where did you get those facts,the Black book of communism or something?

It is not a fact, nor is it claimed that it is a fact. It is a statement. And they are not my words. And I gave the source and it's not the discredited Black
Book of Communism. It's Russia Under the Bolshevik Regime.

Qualifying the Soviet Union under Stalin as a "slave labour empire" is bit over the top, but throughout the 1930s till 1953 between 700,000 and 1,500,000 people were imprisoned in labour camps at any time (source: Getty, Rittersporn, Zemskov. Victims of the Soviet Penal System in the Pre-War Years: A First Approach on the Basis of Archival Evidence. The American Historical Review, Vol. 98, No. 4 (Oct., 1993), pp. 1017-1049). What was the population of Russia then? 100,000,000 maybe? That means that 1 in 100 Russians was imprisoned. Then subtract the child population, which I suppose were a substantial part of the population after WW2 due to the extensive casualties. Then I suppose 1 in 80 of the adult population was imprisoned.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Gulag_Location_Map.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/Gulag_Prisoner_Stats_1934-1953.PNG




I guess your an anti-communist,oh well,most of you end up that way.

Are you monopolizing communism now? Help me remember, communism means there is a state headed by a small clique right? Where there's no workers' self-management. And where there's money still? No? Then how does opposing the Soviet Union make me an anti-communist?

"oh well,most of you end up that way."

Which is actually true for many Marxist-Leninists as well. Or, I am actually not aware of a social anarchist who has turned anti-communist, but whatever, their actions and ideas do not reflect on me.



Historical facts?Those are not facts,but anti-communist propaganda and something that we should never see on RevLeft

They are well established, well researched historical facts.

Why is it that so many are unable to distinquish between the art and the artist.

Just because you are a Leninist does not mean you have to agree with the policies he pursued!

I'm an anarchist and I fully recognise that anarchists are responsible for atrocities in Ukraine and Spain.

Makhno's men have killed up to a hundred people because they were "counterv revolutionary". That's why I will never name Makhno as a role model. A role model is someone you aspire to be more like. A mass murderer is not someone I aspire to be more like. Even though I embrace the free soviets he established, I firmly disagree with his mass murder.

The same goes for the execution of nuns and catholics by anarchists during the Spanish revolution.


but rather on Stormfront or some forum like that.That is not truth.

Ha, this is just sad. I could easily draw a comparison between two groups on opposing poles--if you catch my drift--who both deny historical facts because of their bias. Both deny systematic mass murder, the purpose of concentration camps, i.e. historical facts.

But like I said, to a Marxist-Leninis inconvenient truths are always bourgeois lies.


That brings no weight to your argument,how does that measure if someone was a good role model?If we are going to play it like that,how many people visited Lenins funeral?How many millions?And his grave?

durriti is not my role model. And I guess the point I was trying to make was that he managed to attract working class support without a position of power. This may be inspirational as a role model is someone you want to be more like, and many want to attract great numbers of working class members without holding a position of power. But you're right, it wasn't a very good point.

[Ismail]

Um, the working class when it has been at times revolutionary?

Oh right, this is RevLeft: I meant to say Stalin, Mao, Hoxha, Ho Chi Minh, Hugo Chavez, etc."Thanks to all teachers I learned how to read."
"I was working out in the gym but wasn't doing too good until every good gymmaster inspired me to work-out better."
"I particularly admire anyone who ever played a guitar as great men."
"Every coalminer helped me attain greater yields of coal."
"All humanity helped me with my schoolwork."

The majority of communist workers as role models in the traditional sense are more along the lines of people who worked hard (under socialism) or those who got shot by reactionaries or something. Of course there's a big group within that of workers who became notable for ideological reasons, but otherwise there are larger amounts of people from bourgeois (Engels) or petty-bourgeois (Lenin) backgrounds who in the words of Lenin "betrayed their class" and served the interests of the proletariat.

I mean the whole concept of "role models" is rather strange and doesn't fit for communist ideologues anyway, so yeah.

[Omsk]

Russia Under the Bolshevik Regime.

I stopped reading after this line.


You have the courage to post something from the book of that CIA worm and anti-communist!?Who advocated the theory that Nazi Germany and the USSR are same?

Who said that Lenin is an,i quote:

"merely a psychopath to whom ideas barely mattered and whose only motivation is to dominate and to kill


The man who demonized Lenin beyond any normal borders?(even by anti-communist standards)

The man who is a member of the "Victims of communism fund" or something!?

And yet you say your not an anti-communist.

[Geiseric]

I always liked Phil Ochs, the folk singer from the 60's - 70's, he supported allende and was at the forefront of the protest movement of the 60's, and ended up killing himself because the FBI had his place wiretapped and they used him to find other socialists and get evidence against people.

I also always liked Lenin, Trotsky, Sverdlov, Rykov, Luxembourg, James P. Cannon, James Connolly, Antonio Gramsci, Zapata, Guevara, Eugene Debbs, M.N. Roy is great, Chen Duxiu, Malcolm X, and Woody Guthrie, a folk singer from the ol' dust bowl.

[A Marxist Historian]

:confused: I listed Parsons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_Parsons)...

Do you ever read books and information before you click the reply button?
I'm fine with you liking Lenin. However, to say Durruti did nothing before the war is laughable. He helped protect the working-class neighborhoods, committed acts of sabotage while on strike, and much more. Hell, he robbed banks to secure funds for CNT activities, which includes but not limited to: setting up schools and classes for illiterate adults, mass propaganda, organizing campaigns, community centers, etc.

Durruti was a badass.

The Spanish Trotskyists (not the POUMists, the real ones) had a high opinion of Durruti. An admiration that was not mutual.

In fact just about everybody on the left had a high opinion of Durruti, even the Spanish Stalinists said nice things about him from time to time. After all, Stalin was just as good a bank robber as Durruti was, back in the day.

Although Durruti was an anarchist in theory, in practice, he had a firm understanding of the need for a radical vanguard to lead the workers, and the need to repress backward elements. An unconscious Leninist to some degree.

From a distance, he admired the Kronstadt rebels and Makhno, but he had no hesitation about putting their Spanish equivalents up against the wall and shooting them. If anything, he was a bit too much of a Chekist.

-M.H.-

[Ismail]

I noted the support Soviet forces in Spain had for Durruti, but to add further weight to this the Great Soviet Encyclopedia of the 1970's is itself a bit supportive:

Durruti, Buenaventura

Born in 1896; died Nov. 20, 1936. Prominent in the Spanish workers’ movement. Metalworker.

After 1920, Durruti became a prominent leader of the Spanish anarchists, directing their fighting organization. He was very popular among the workers. Durruti was sentenced to death on numerous occasions. On July 19-20, 1936, Durruti was instrumental in routing the fascist revolt in Barcelona and then commanded one of the columns on the Aragon front. In the first months of the civil war of 1936-39, Durruti led the revolutionary elements of the anarcho-syndicalists and supported the unity of the workers’ movement and the creation of a regular army. In November 1936 he participated in the defense of Madrid as the commander of the column of Catalonian anarchists. He was treacherously murdered from behind while positioning his column on the Madrid front.The main English-language pro-Soviet text on the war, Spain! The Unfinished Revolution, is fairly supportive of him as well.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

Although Durruti was an anarchist in theory, in practice, he had a firm understanding of the need for a radical vanguard to lead the workers, and the need to repress backward elements. An unconscious Leninist to some degree.
The 2nd part doesn't clash with the first. Quite a handful of anarchists believe in erasing fascism, reactionary forces, and/or religion with force. You could also argue anarchists, especially the syndicalists, believe in a workers vanguard.
Those beliefs don't stray from anarchism, so he wouldn't be a unconscious Leninist.

[Paul Cockshott]

Jesus, Marx, Connolly, Lenin, Trotsky, Tito, Ho Chi Minh, Che and Castro. 'The human face of socialism'. :D
A good critique of Titoist economics here
http://crvenakritika.org/english/154--the-misconceptions-of-the-past

[Ismail]

"The human face" of a "socialist" who claimed that the New Deal and reformism were great ways to achieve socialism.

It's pretty hard to take anyone seriously as a "leftist" when he praises Jesus or Tito, let alone both.

[Stalin Ate My Homework]

"The human face" of a "socialist" who claimed that the New Deal and reformism were great ways to achieve socialism.

It's pretty hard to take anyone seriously as a "leftist" when he praises Jesus or Tito, let alone both.

I totally agree. Looking back on this post Im a bit embaressed, it was the stage when I began to look into Marxist theory but was afraid of studying some of the 'meaner' figures. Having said that I think Jesus remains an important historical figure.

In reality the 'meaner' socialists are those who became more than just heroic failures.

----------------------------------

Please dont denounce me as a Khruschevite revisionist!! ...Just kidding comrade. :lol:

[redmaoist]

Mao!:d