Thatcher stepping down

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

What is the general consensus for the end of her time as PM?

The wiki page, for example, describes it as a political move by other conservative mp's to bolster their own chances. However that seems like more a symptom than an underlying reason for her resignation.

Was it unpopularity of privatization, the breaking of unions, her treatment of prisoners in Northern Ireland? A combination of the three, or other olicies that made her unpopular? Why is it cited that the conservatives were still very popular when she stepped down, as her popularity was very low? Was she just disliked personally, perhaps what W/Cheney became here in the states as their terms wore on?

If you listened to American conservatives (especially neocons) you would think she was a very popular leader, and brave enough to take on the commies who were embedded in the state apparatus.

(If you would also like to give opinioon on why Labour went from "semi-left" to full on neoliberal, feel free)

[RedSunRising]

The Poll Tax.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

So the riots surrounding the poll tax were the central force that got her removed, you would say?

[Demogorgon]

So the riots surrounding the poll tax were the central force that got her removed, you would say?
Not the riots as such. The tax itself was one of the most unpopular things a British Government has done such the age of Universal Suffrage. It should also be noted that she was starting to lose her grip on some of her MPs and the hardcore Eurosceptics in the party weren't happy at the concessions she was making on that front.

You canot underestimate the importance of the poll tax though.

EDIT: The Conservatives themselves were pretty unpopular when she stepped down. They were able to regain some popularity once she was gone however.

[RGacky3]

(If you would also like to give opinioon on why Labour went from "semi-left" to full on neoliberal, feel free)

I am by no means an expert on the matter, but I think it was for the same reason the Democrats did, unions were weakend, and they needed (wanted) support from corporate sectors and buisiness leaders. I believe it started when Blair invited buisiness leaders to a labour meating.

[Tommy4ever]

Most of the horrible things that did earlier on were things that boosted her in the eyes of Tory voters. It was the Poll Tax more than anything that brought her down - it finally convinced the Tory party that she had to go - the move worked and they won another 5 years in office. :/

[Thug Lessons]

This, more or less.

ReIAna459sg

[RedSunRising]

So the riots surrounding the poll tax were the central force that got her removed, you would say?

Not the riots so much as the fact that so many people refused to pay it. The riots were just the "crown" maybe on a strong grass roots campaign against payment. The Poll Tax summed up her arrogance, but than so did her treatment of the miners as well as her policies in the north of Ireland from the hunger strikes on, however the Poll Tax directly effected everybody.

[Paul Cockshott]

I am certain it was the poll tax strike we on the left started that forced her out

[Devrim]

Most of the horrible things that did earlier on were things that boosted her in the eyes of Tory voters. It was the Poll Tax more than anything that brought her down - it finally convinced the Tory party that she had to go - the move worked and they won another 5 years in office. :/

I think that the idea that the poll tax was what brought Thatcher down is pretty much leftist myth making. I was working in the UK at the time and it never seemed like that to me.

It certainly wasn't the Poll Tax riots, which happened at the end of March. Thatcher dell in November.

What happened was that her own party decided that she was an electoral liability after the loss of a safe Tory seat (I seem to remember it being Eastbourne) in a by-election. The 'final straw' was Howe's resignation over her policy towards Europe and his speech in the Commons.

Of course it would be undeniable that the Poll Tax played a role in her unpopularity but it wasn't the immediate cause.

Devrim

[The Idler]

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[Demogorgon]

I think that the idea that the poll tax was what brought Thatcher down is pretty much leftist myth making. I was working in the UK at the time and it never seemed like that to me.

It certainly wasn't the Poll Tax riots, which happened at the end of March. Thatcher dell in November.

What happened was that her own party decided that she was an electoral liability after the loss of a safe Tory seat (I seem to remember it being Eastbourne) in a by-election. The 'final straw' was Howe's resignation over her policy towards Europe and his speech in the Commons.

Of course it would be undeniable that the Poll Tax played a role in her unpopularity but it wasn't the immediate cause.

Devrim
Well the immediate cause was of course Howe's resignation and her inability to win outright in the first round of the leadership challenge. Plus of course Anthony Meyer's leadership challenge the year before had broken the impression that she was unassailable. But these internal challenges and setbacks would not have been possible without her having been compromised to the public at large.

Europe can't really be blamed either. Successfully leading the Conservative Party is more or less about keeping the lid on the party's internal divisions on the subject and spectrum of views that include much that is impossible to reconcile with reality. A Tory leader in a strong position can keep the Euro-rebels under control. That is why Cameron hasn't had too much public problems from him yet (though stories go he has had to be rather forceful with them in private) whereas Major was destroyed by the issue.

Basically what I am saying is that the Europe issue boiling up in the Conservative Party is a sign that the leader's grip is slipping and leadership challenges mean, of course, that rivals had scented blood. Thatcher was compromised and even the Tories themselves these days believe it is the poll tax that caused that.

[Devrim]

Thatcher was compromised and even the Tories themselves these days believe it is the poll tax that caused that.

I think it was a contributing factor, but in a way so were things so banal as the fact that she had been in for so long that people were tiring of her.


Europe can't really be blamed either. Successfully leading the Conservative Party is more or less about keeping the lid on the party's internal divisions on the subject and spectrum of views that include much that is impossible to reconcile with reality. A Tory leader in a strong position can keep the Euro-rebels under control.

There is some truth to this, but I think that there was also a realisation within the party that Thatcher's antagonistic approach to Europe was not maintainable. In that way she wasn't like Cameron, but more like the far 'right' Euro-sceptics. I think it was a major factor in here having to go.

Devrim

[RedSunRising]

Thatcher was compromised and even the Tories themselves these days believe it is the poll tax that caused that.

There can be no doubt though that the defeat of the Poll Tax was the last great major victory for the working class on the British isles.

[Demogorgon]

I think it was a contributing factor, but in a way so were things so banal as the fact that she had been in for so long that people were tiring of her.

That happens, but politicians like Thatcher don't easily simply become dull to people. They need to do something to really shake the public and moreover something that makes their own party start to doubt them. It is the same with Blair for instance who would most likely have managed his dream of twelve years in office if it hadn't been for Iraq. The problem with the poll tax from the perspective of the Poll Tax was twofold; in the first instance it was bringing them the sort of unpopularity that politicians do not like and secondly it was where Thatcher overplayed her hand and attempted something that the public could not tolerate. Politicians like Thatcher survive by giving the impression they can achieve anything they set their mind to and can win any battle. As soon as that mystique goes, their party will start to scent blood.


There is some truth to this, but I think that there was also a realisation within the party that Thatcher's antagonistic approach to Europe was not maintainable. In that way she wasn't like Cameron, but more like the far 'right' Euro-sceptics. I think it was a major factor in here having to go.

Devrim
I think it is more complicated than that. Thatcher was actually walking a fairly tight line on Europe. She was a hell of a lot more combative than the likes of Howe would have liked, but she was much less so than some of the others in her party would have liked her to be. They weren't so visible in the eighties because Thatcher threw them enough bones but the extreme anti-European wing of the party that destroyed Major was already there. This really isn't the place to get into speculation about whether she had been getting more and more uncooperative in Europe to appease them and alienated the other side of the party as a result, but suffice to say, she failed to reconcile the different factions in the way she once had. In Conservative Party politics that means one thing: you have weekend.

[Cencus]

The poll tax was just a final straw, The tories had been in a state of civil war for years over the European issue.

[Property Is Robbery]

I was under the impression that she had already died :laugh:

That's depressing news to me :crying:

[RedSunRising]

I was under the impression that she had already died :laugh:

That's depressing news to me :crying:

Im glad she is still alive. I will be depressed as fuck if she dies a natural death.

[Red Future]

Im glad she is still alive. I will be depressed as fuck if she dies a natural death.

Cheer up , there are apparently parties to be held on her death day!!:lol:

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

When she goes the American republicans will use it as an opportunity, like they did Reagans death, to highlight the triumph of neoliberal values and huge weapons financing. The actual policies she enacted don't matter here in the states.

I could barely stomach the weeks following Reagans death. Holy fuck anyone else remember that, football games reserving time to remember the fallen hero and similar bullshit?

Thanks to everyone for the input by the way, it's one of those things that's kind of hard to get a grasp of if you're not in that prism so to speak.

[RedSunRising]

Cheer up , there are apparently parties to be held on her death day!!:lol:

Well okay I take that back...I hope she dies a very painful and prolonged natural death.

[Tik-Tok]

She was a neo con. Nothing more abhorrent than a neo con.