When can we actually start the movement

[csquared]

How long do you guys think it will take the left to start a movement? Would it require the whole Left to combine? will we see a civil war in our life time? If there was, that would be something to die for..I just want to know when you guys think we can actually put our words into action.

[¿Que?]

Socialism (and anarchism) (viz. communism) have been put into action in many forms. Did you miss the twentieth century? Really, the question now is , what went wrong and how do we fix it.

[csquared]

yes im talking about now of course......we must be very critical of the old communist ways. abandoning class warfare might a good thing because the left seems to argue a lot about who is apart of the working class and who is not. In my opinion it doesn't matter; we are all equal! I'm apart of the working class being a 17 year old working at Wendys!

[Impulse97]

yes im talking about now of course......we must be very critical of the old communist ways. abandoning class warfare might a good thing because the left seems to argue a lot about who is apart of the working class and who is not. In my opinion it doesn't matter; we are all equal! I'm apart of the working class being a 17 year old working at Wendys!


Well, if you abandon class war you pretty much stop any chance of attaining socialism. Besides, those that are of the true working class should be the ones fighting with us. Anyone else is either Bourgeoisie or Petite Bourgiese/Working class who support the Bourgeoisie.


The proletariat is that class in society which lives entirely from the sale of its labor and does not draw profit from any kind of capital; whose weal and woe, whose life and death, whose sole existence depends on the demand for labor – hence, on the changing state of business, on the vagaries of unbridled competition. The proletariat, or the class of proletarians, is, in a word, the working class... -Engles

Seems pretty simple to me.

[csquared]

Well, if you abandon class war you pretty much stop any chance of attaining socialism. Besides, those that are of the true working class should be the ones fighting with us. Anyone else is either Bourgeoisie or Petite Bourgiese/Working class who support the Bourgeoisie.

But the Left right now is ARGUING on who really is in the working class. In America it is very hard to determine. Teachers do not like to be associated with the working class because they think the working class is uneducated. We have to very critical of the original communist manifesto because all of Marx's ideals do not match with todays society ( but I would say most do). If the left today just dropped class warfare, and just focus on uniting the poor then I believe we will start another revolution

[Impulse97]

But the Left right now is ARGUING on who really is in the working class. In America it is very hard to determine. Teachers do not like to be associated with the working class because they think the working class is uneducated. We have to very critical of the original communist manifesto because all of Marx's ideals do not match with todays society ( but I would say most do). If the left today just dropped class warfare, and just focus on uniting the poor then I believe we will start another revolution


You have several valid points, which I too have often pondered, but what you don't understand is that class conflict is needed to unite the proletariat. Without it, their is no motivation to change. The working class must become conscious of its struggle with the ruling class. If it is not conscious it cannot start a revolution. This non conscious working class is what we have in the US. They do not see the exploitation and thus do nothing to change the status quo. It is the acts of the capitalists that trigger this conflict, low wages, layoffs etc. etc.

What do the poor have to unite for if they don't have the ongoing struggle between the classes? Whats the point of getting a bunch of poor to unite if they do not see the wrongs being committed and thus seek to change them? What good is it if they do not see the Capitalists as the cause of this inequality? They'll simply be a social club with no real direction or purpose. They must know. It is essential.

[Zav]

The Revolution will start with the 100th monkey, which means that grassroots organisation must create small-scale Communism before it can become global. This is to what I dedicate my life.

[csquared]

I believe just by trying to uniting the poor, that will take the place of class warfare. (this is from a neo-marxist POV

[red cat]

How do you plan to unite the poor and overthrow the bourgeoisie?

[Commissar Rykov]

yes im talking about now of course......we must be very critical of the old communist ways. abandoning class warfare might a good thing because the left seems to argue a lot about who is apart of the working class and who is not. In my opinion it doesn't matter; we are all equal! I'm apart of the working class being a 17 year old working at Wendys!

Abandon class warfare? What the fuck? Why not just roll over and let Corporations continue to fuck the Proletariats further into slavery? God this is the worst idea I have seen here.

Why not just give up being revolutionary? Hell lets join Bourgeoisie Liberal Parties and just not give a fuck anymore.

[Impulse97]

Abandon class warfare? What the fuck? Why not just roll over and let Corporations continue to fuck the Proletariats further into slavery? God this is the worst idea I have seen here.

Why not just give up being revolutionary? Hell lets join Bourgeoisie Liberal Parties and just not give a fuck anymore.


Chillax dude. There's debate and then there's bashing. Revisionist as it may be, he is entitled to his opinion and if we disagree we are entitled to try and convince him of the 'correct' path/line of thought etc.

[Commissar Rykov]

Chillax dude. There's debate and then there's bashing. Revisionist as it may be, he is entitled to his opinion and if we disagree we are entitled to try and convince him of the 'correct' path/line of thought etc.

Revisionism? More like Liberal Defeatism. Abandonment of the Workers in order to appease the Petite-Bourgeoisie and others who worship Capital is nothing short of nonsense. I thought this was RevLeft not the Democratic Party boards.

[Impulse97]

Revisionism? More like Liberal Defeatism. Abandonment of the Workers in order to appease the Petite-Bourgeoisie and others who worship Capital is nothing short of nonsense. I thought this was RevLeft not the Democratic Party boards.

I don't care what you call it. Let's just focus on the discussion at hand and trying to explain our point of view and why we feel it to be correct instead of being obnoxious. Thus, far you have done nothing to change his stance for the better, rather you ***** about his views and generally derail the topic at hand.,,,,,,fmds

Shit, man we gotta teach and learn niot be tendacy warists.

SDorrry if these posts are nonsensical, i;m just a tad bombed as fuck. Hooray for proletarian produced vodka! Down with bourgiesesees profits off of such a wonderous potatoe base substance! Revolution! Revolution! Revolution!

[jake williams]

There is a "movement" of class struggle that exists at all times in society. You may or may not see it, you may or may not directly or consciously participate in it, but it is a feature of all class societies.

There are also lots of specific formal and informal political organizations, some quite large and important in different parts of the world; some apparently on the way to possibly achieving fundamental, revolutionary change; and some, arguably, actually even doing it. Again, you might not see them, but that's a feature of the low level of class and global-political consciousness that exists in the advanced capitalist countries which I and presumably you live in.

I put my political beliefs into action regularly, probably every day. So do my closest friends. You might not, but I can't really be held responsible for that. If your beliefs are that revolutionary change needs to occur instantly or spontaneously or in a very specific way, then you might not be able to put such ideas into practice, but I'm not responsible for that either.

Revolutionary change in society takes an exceptionally long time, and the very hard work of millions, or in modern society, billions of people. The total abolition of capitalism will be a process in which the total working class will be implicated in some way. Such a process is not one which it makes sense to describe as spontaneously beginning at some particular point in time, especially in the future.

The "movement" already exists. You're more than welcome to participate in it.

[Astarte]

You have several valid points, which I too have often pondered, but what you don't understand is that class conflict is needed to unite the proletariat.
Class conflict is happening everyday in the work places, and the employed "poor" the OP was referring to in a more generalized way are simply hourly wage earners, sometimes, but not always "full time" (meaning they get medical benefits) workers. Often they will have a second job, usually part time. There is also the case where the "working poor" consist of people who can only get part time jobs, so they have two or three, are working all kinds of hours a week, and getting no medical benefits, etc. How is this situation of life not the kind of atmosphere of "class conflict" needed to "unite the proletariat"?


Without it, their is no motivation to change. The working class must become conscious of its struggle with the ruling class. If it is not conscious it cannot start a revolution. This non conscious working class is what we have in the US. They do not see the exploitation and thus do nothing to change the status quo. It is the acts of the capitalists that trigger this conflict, low wages, layoffs etc. etc.

Actually, they do see and are feeling very much so the exploitation. The problem is that they are alienated from orthodox Marxism, and there in that alienation and the dogma inherent in Marxism-Leninism in some areas regardless, an ideological vacuum is created.


What do the poor have to unite for if they don't have the ongoing struggle between the classes? Whats the point of getting a bunch of poor to unite if they do not see the wrongs being committed and thus seek to change them? What good is it if they do not see the Capitalists as the cause of this inequality? They'll simply be a social club with no real direction or purpose. They must know. It is essential.

I think its a problem of the loss of the Gramscian "war of position" in the Cold War - that and in the Cold War living standards were a lot better - people easily could own homes and have a lot of kids, with only the male working 40 hours a week. That kind of thing is done with, now both partners have to work at least one job to sustain a family, but the illusion of capitalism = anti-Communism = your very freedom is still deeply ingrained in a generation which lived through most of the Cold War.

[ZeroNowhere]

We can't start the movement.


But the Left right now is ARGUING on who really is in the working class. In America it is very hard to determine. Teachers do not like to be associated with the working class because they think the working class is uneducated.We are concerned with describing the social production process, the relations immanent to it and its necessary demise, not with propagandizing or convincing people of anything.


If the left today just dropped class warfare, and just focus on uniting the poor then I believe we will start another revolutionIt doesn't matter what the left does, it matters what the class does under the objective conditions provided by the secular increase in the composition of capital.

[Le Socialiste]

yes im talking about now of course......we must be very critical of the old communist ways. abandoning class warfare might a good thing because the left seems to argue a lot about who is apart of the working class and who is not. In my opinion it doesn't matter; we are all equal! I'm apart of the working class being a 17 year old working at Wendys!


No. Abandoning class warfare would not even begin to adequately address our movement's shortcomings. Should we forget that the possessing capitalistic-class has been waging class warfare on the heads of working peoples for centuries? Let's remember that such conflict isn't a one lane road, with the working-class claiming a monopoly over its direction. Both sides engage in this war. It's just that when the ruling-classes do it we "see" it as an excusable act, because, well, you know - "human nature". :rolleyes:

When the workers even tempt the idea of economic and political agitation, the bourgeoisie howl bloody murder, and that's when "class warfare" starts being bandied about. Now, it's true - many on the left will debate over whether one qualifies as "working-class", but that shouldn't dissuade us from engaging in the liberation of all struggling and laboring peoples. After all, the immediate goal of any revolution must be to seek out and dismantle the class structure. It is an oppressive, top-down hierarchical system that has no place in society.

[taka því rólega]

I think that most people need to realise that they are in fact the "working class" and that the revolution will be in their favour - it is in a sense about persuading the petit-bourgeoisie and pretentious middle-classes that they could in fact benefit from change and that it is not to be feared.

[Tommy4ever]

Didn't the idea of the idea of the 'middle class' emerged for some socialogist deciding to divide the working class into 'educated' and 'non-educated' workers. This idea then emerged into an idea of there being an upper working class and a lower working class. Then from there it emerged into a middle and working class. But the two classes are still, from a Marxist standpoint anyway, the working class as a whole - as their relationship to capital remains the same.

[Thirsty Crow]

If the left today just dropped class warfare, and just focus on uniting the poor then I believe we will start another revolution
I don't think you understand what we refer to by "class war" and "class struggle".
Long story short, it is not something that political organizations and intellectuals can "drop", "stop" or "start".

[Spawn of Stalin]

To be fair, the left doesn't argue about who is working class THAT much, and it really never has. They do however argue about who represents the working class, and abandoning class altogether won't change that, today we have people arguing who represents the working class, tomorrow we will have people arguing about who represents the poor, no explanation needed really, you want to take one problem and replace it with another.

Besides when you look at the working class of the west (north America, most of Europe), comparatively few people are poor. Growing up I was very poor, now I am not, but I'm still working class, just because I landed a well paying job it doesn't mean I wouldn't benefit from socialism, I would. Simply representing "the poor" would do nothing but split the working class even more.

[28350]

The Revolution will start with the 100th monkey, which means that grassroots organisation must create small-scale Communism before it can become global. This is to what I dedicate my life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundredth_monkey_effect#The_effect_discredited

[csquared]

we can create struggle without class warfare! Everyone is equal it doesn't matter who represents the working class. We need to be like the PSL and focus on uniting the poor!!!

[Thirsty Crow]

we can create struggle without class warfare! Maybe you fail to understand the metaphorical significance of the term ("class war").
If not and if you advocate abandoning militant action on behalf of workers' themselves, then you're quite deluded since there would be no reason for workers to listen to leftist wankers.

Everyone is equal it doesn't matter who represents the working class.The working class does not need a party or any other organization to represent it.

We need to be like the PSL and focus on uniting the poor!!!Sure bro/sis. I'll try harder to act like PSL (I'm going to invite the Prez of a bourgeois state to dinner at my place).

Oh yeah, cool sig you got there.
Bet you're a troll.

[mosfeld]

You might be interested in reading about Marxism-Leninism-Maoism and the ongoing People's Wars under its banner. The movement is very strong and arguably the largest contemporary branch of communism. MLM is mainly concentrated in South Asia, the Philippines, and to a lesser extent in Peru, Turkey and elsewhere.

The links in my signature might be a good starting point (excl. the Dworkin link, though you could read that too if you want to check out radical feminist literature.)

[Impulse97]

we can create struggle without class warfare! Everyone is equal it doesn't matter who represents the working class. We need to be like the PSL and focus on uniting the poor!!!

But, you can't create struggle. You gotta leave that to the Capitalists.

In most advanced Capitalist nations even the poorest working class are far better off than those in the same situation where 100 years ago. Uniting just the poorest of them would accomplish nothing, because your only uniting a small part of the Working class. The whole class must be untied, regardless of how much they make, because they are all being exploited. In short, they living standards may improve, pay may improve, but the mechanics of the exploitation is the same.

[Impulse97]

Maybe you fail to understand the metaphorical significance of the term ("class war").
If not and if you advocate abandoning militant action on behalf of workers' themselves, then you're quite deluded since there would be no reason for workers to listen to leftist wankers.
The working class does not need a party or any other organization to represent it.
Sure bro/sis. I'll try harder to act like PSL (I'm going to invite the Prez of a bourgeois state to dinner at my place).

Oh yeah, cool sig you got there.
Bet you're a troll.


This is the Learning section you idiot. :thumbdown:

You can't expect people who come here to have a PhD in Marxism.


A place for beginners and learners to ask their political questions about theory or specific issues. Don't worry if you think your questions are stupid or pointless, ask away. Learning is not stupid and is never pointless.

[☭The Revolution☭]

I've been calling for leftist unity and the 8th World Congress of the Communist Internationale for a long time. Many people on this forum don't seem interested in the idea of unity. Really, you have to unite outside a forum, and use the forums to gather members who are interested.

[Spawn of Stalin]

we can create struggle without class warfare! Everyone is equal it doesn't matter who represents the working class. We need to be like the PSL and focus on uniting the poor!!!

PSL is a workers party, it has been since its inception

[Commissar Rykov]

Maybe you fail to understand the metaphorical significance of the term ("class war").
If not and if you advocate abandoning militant action on behalf of workers' themselves, then you're quite deluded since there would be no reason for workers to listen to leftist wankers.
The working class does not need a party or any other organization to represent it.
Sure bro/sis. I'll try harder to act like PSL (I'm going to invite the Prez of a bourgeois state to dinner at my place).

Oh yeah, cool sig you got there.
Bet you're a troll.

His last post reeks of trolling to be honest. The ending of Class Warfare? Yeah good luck getting the Capitalists to take their jackboots off the neck of the Workers.

[Aspiring Humanist]

abandoning class warfare might a good thing
then what the hell is the point of socialism

[Reznov]

Socialism (and anarchism) (viz. communism) have been put into action in many forms. Did you miss the twentieth century? Really, the question now is , what went wrong and how do we fix it.

Thats where the real question and movement begins.

I am not sure that people, and the average worker are ready to accept any type of Leftist thought until we can see that American Capitalism beginning to fail.

But when it does I believe it will spark change throughout the world and we as Leftists and workers have to be ready.

[Reznov]

then what the hell is the point of socialism

I think he was referring to class warfare in the sense of actual armed warfare, not the class struggle.

[Thirsty Crow]

This is the Learning section you idiot. :thumbdown:

You can't expect people who come here to have a PhD in Marxism.
Oh, and I do hold such expectations, right?
And this guy's/gal's incoherent, rambling posts do not appear as trolling?
And this site doesn't get its fair share of trolls?

Naivete must be bliss. But, in case I'm really wrong, I apologize for being sceptical ass.

[Commissar Rykov]

I think he was referring to class warfare in the sense of actual armed warfare, not the class struggle.

Revolution can't be made with silk gloves.

[Robocommie]

Revisionism? More like Liberal Defeatism. Abandonment of the Workers in order to appease the Petite-Bourgeoisie and others who worship Capital is nothing short of nonsense. I thought this was RevLeft not the Democratic Party boards.

Comrade, this is Revleft, but this is the Learning board. This is where newbies go to get their shit sorted out.

[csquared]

I'm a guy by the way...and im 17, I have been on the left for about a year now... I would say I'm a communist, but I'm a Neo-Marxist. I'm apart of the New Left, and we cannot use all of Marx's original ideas because they do not match with the current time we live in. (most do however).

[csquared]

by the way im not trolling. stop being so closed minded

[Robocommie]

I'm a guy by the way...and im 17, I have been on the left for about a year now... I would say I'm a communist, but I'm a Neo-Marxist. I'm apart of the New Left, and we cannot use all of Marx's original ideas because they do not match with the current time we live in. (most do however).

The burden is on you then, to explain which of Marx's ideas no longer apply and why. The thing is, the concept of class struggle is pretty central to all of Marx's work, in fact I'd argue it's nearly definitive of Marxism as a political philosophy. ("The history of all hitherto existing societies is the history of class struggle.") Simply calling yourself a Neo-Marxist doesn't change the fundamental core of Marxist thought. If you reject a class based analysis of society in favor of something even fuzzier, then you're not really a Marxist at all, you're a Weberian with Marxian influences.

[☭The Revolution☭]

New Age Collectivism? Ick. Join the tankies, mate, we have turnips! I'm an old school soviet and loving it B)

How long have you been a commie? You may find my book interesting.

http://www.filedropper.com/thecommunistlife-thehandbookofleftcollectivism_1

[Commissar Rykov]

The burden is on you then, to explain which of Marx's ideas no longer apply and why. The thing is, the concept of class struggle is pretty central to all of Marx's work, in fact I'd argue it's nearly definitive of Marxism as a political philosophy. ("The history of all hitherto existing societies is the history of class struggle.") Simply calling yourself a Neo-Marxist doesn't change the fundamental core of Marxist thought. If you reject a class based analysis of society in favor of something even fuzzier, then you're not really a Marxist at all, you're a Weberian with Marxian influences.

Indeed, Weber was just at times purposefully vague. I don't know how one could seriously call themselves a Marxist yet in the same sentence denounce Marx's core theory it doesn't make sense. I think the TS should spend a little more time reading Marx before claiming to be a supporter of his it would save everyone the confusion in regards to his ideas.

[hatzel]

I think the TS should spend a little more time reading Marx before claiming to be a supporter of his it would save everyone the confusion in regards to his ideas.

Either that or just give up the ghost and embrace post-left anarchy :)

[Commissar Rykov]

Either that or just give up the ghost and embrace post-left anarchy :)

Another excellent suggestion.:)

[Decommissioner]

"the movement" will not start in ernest until the working class itself is mobilized. Not to discredit currently existing parties and organizations, they play a role in education and agitation, but I would not call any sort of revolutionary movement a real movement until it is organically grown from the working class (ie a working class party/organization that has arisen from a popular working class movement).

Basically I believe a movement will arise naturally, divorced from but not to say without aid from, currently existing parties. With the sectarian nature of the left, a mobilized working class will have no use for concern on which of these many small parties to join (or why these many parties differ from one another), they will form their own party(ies) out of a legitimate working class popular movement.

Which often makes me wonder, for those who are a part of currently existing parties, is the goal of your party to ultimately "win" the working class over to join your parties over others? To become the party if a revolutionary situation were to arise?

[jake williams]

"the movement" will not start in ernest until the working class itself is mobilized. Not to discredit currently existing parties and organizations, they play a role in education and agitation, but I would not call any sort of revolutionary movement a real movement until it is organically grown from the working class (ie a working class party/organization that has arisen from a popular working class movement).

Basically I believe a movement will arise naturally, divorced from but not to say without aid from, currently existing parties. With the sectarian nature of the left, a mobilized working class will have no use for concern on which of these many small parties to join (or why these many parties differ from one another), they will form their own party(ies) out of a legitimate working class popular movement.

Which often makes me wonder, for those who are a part of currently existing parties, is the goal of your party to ultimately "win" the working class over to join your parties over others? To become the party if a revolutionary situation were to arise?
Where precisely do you think existing workers' parties and organizations come from? Bourgeois agitation? Thin air?

[mikelepore]

The working class does not need a party or any other organization to represent it.


I suggest that the people who say this should think through the subject again. If a political party representing the working class does not take control of the state, then the capitalist class automatically keeps its control of the state.