Was the Osama raid even legal?

[RadioRaheem84]

People are up in arms about Shepard Smith's Fox News question about the legality of the Osama raid under international law.

Does anyone know if it was illegal? I do see a lot of articles about how it was legal, but who is making the accusations that it wasn't? Anyone have any links?

[unfriendly]

It seems dubious to me. Summary executions always seem dubious to me; he never got any due process of law.

But then, the US hasn't exactly pretended to be obeying laws for the wars in the middle east. Or anywhere else. Or its own existence.

[RadioRaheem84]

Well for all their talk, liberals in the US are already taking Eric Holders word for it that the raid was legal and are jumping on anyone who takes a contrary position. The right wing is using the legality issue for political gain against Obama, and the hypocritical liberals are defending Obama like when the former used to do with Bush during the Iraq War.

American liberals can be just as jingoistic as right wingers when their President is doing the bombing.

I am wondering if anyone has any links by critics who say that the raid was illegal to counter Eric Holders assessment.

[GPDP]

You could get on prime time TV, present all the evidence for why the raid and the execution were illegal, and NOBODY but those already in the know would care.

Let's face it, a lot of Americans wanted Osama's head on a silver platter. Like TC said in another thread, the whole point of hunting him down for many people was little more than a thinly-veiled revenge fantasy, as if killing him, no matter how many dollars or lives were wasted away in the process, would somehow bring justice to the victims of 9/11.

It's a lost cause at this point to argue the legality of the raid. Hell, most people don't even care about Israel's egregious violations of international law! When it comes to an official enemy tantamount to Satan himself, most people who are happy to see him dead would also be more than happy to say "who gives a shit if the raid was illegal?"

[thesadmafioso]

No.

http://www.fordlibrarymuseum.gov/library/speeches/760110e.htm#assassination

[Reznov]

You could get on prime time TV, present all the evidence for why the raid and the execution were illegal, and NOBODY but those already in the know would care.

Let's face it, a lot of Americans wanted Osama's head on a silver platter. Like TC said in another thread, the whole point of hunting him down for many people was little more than a thinly-veiled revenge fantasy, as if killing him, no matter how many dollars or lives were wasted away in the process, would somehow bring justice to the victims of 9/11.

It's a lost cause at this point to argue the legality of the raid. Hell, most people don't even care about Israel's egregious violations of international law! When it comes to an official enemy tantamount to Satan himself, most people who are happy to see him dead would also be more than happy to say "who gives a shit if the raid was illegal?"

I always figured they used Osama and 9/11 as their justification for occupying most of the middle east countries and setting up their own puppet governments and reinforcing their position their.

And, most Americans no longer care. Yesterday we had a brief discussion which ended with saying pretty much "Well, he got what was coming". And that was it. Hasn't been mentioned and probably wont be mentioned ever again.

[RadioRaheem84]

No.

http://www.fordlibrarymuseum.gov/library/speeches/760110e.htm#assassination

Under US law too?

Wow. I was just hinting at international law.

Thanks

[thesadmafioso]

Under US law too?

Wow. I was just hinting at international law.

Thanks

Yeah, though the president could theoretically supersede this with his own executive order legalizing such action, and there is a rather strong precedent of this restriction simply being ignored by most every president to take office since its signing. There is also room for debate over the meaning of 'political assassination', though as Bin Laden was killed in a region beyond any theater of conflict and while not bearing arms in a sovereign nation, it could be said to be relevant enough.

[Rafiq]

This isn't the first time the United States broke International law and it's own Laws, for that matter.

It doesn't matter, really. I don't know why anyone would be surprised.

The bourgeoisie is going to break any "laws" if they find it necessary.

[brigadista]

did it actually happen? we only have their word for it and that is not worth anything..

[RadioRaheem84]

The point is that the US is already defensive on the matter, sicking Eric Holder out on anyone who questions the legality of the killing.

What I want to know just what is he debating against? Where are the arguments against legality?

[RadioRaheem84]

It seems like it's pointless to get people to even debate the issue in the States:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110504/ap_on_re_us/bin_laden_international_law

Read the comments of people.

[CHEtheLIBERATOR]

I think the legality of it isn't that big of a deal, the government does illegal acts on a daily basis. The real problem is whether they really even got him

[RadioRaheem84]

The point is that Obama engages in illegal acts too, yet liberals don't care.

[~Spectre]

Greenwald had some good stuff on his blog about it. Not that any of it will matter.

[Zav]

People are up in arms about Shepard Smith's Fox News question about the legality of the Osama raid under international law.

Does anyone know if it was illegal? I do see a lot of articles about how it was legal, but who is making the accusations that it wasn't? Anyone have any links?
What act of war is legal?
Oh, wait, if the government does it, that makes it legal. Forgot about that.

[Catillina]

Strange, over here in Europe there are more articles about how it was illegal, rather then why it was legal.
Most people I know think that it was illegal, but if they think that it was OK, thats another question.
Merkel is also criticised because she said that she was delighted that osama was killed.
The death of Osama is handled different over here, than in America. I guess it's because of the Patriotism:confused:

[Chambered Word]

It was an extrajudicial killing, of course it's not legal. Osama was never given a trial and while I don't much care for Osama, it proves the utter hipocrisy of the US' so-called commitment to the rule of law, democracy and the rest of it.

Is anything that the United States is doing in Afghanistan legal? No, but nobody with any power is interested in enforcing it. The Geneva Convention is hardly worth the paper it's written on and those who receive punishment for war crimes are typically the losers in the conflict (if they haven't been already killed outright).

[RadioRaheem84]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/05/04/973035/-Osama-bin-Laden-assassination-turns-conservatives-into-dirty-hippies

Daily Kos turns jingoistic saying that since the Dalai Lama says the killing OBL was justified, then it was right!:laugh:

Liberals turn into Bush-lite when their President kicks ass!

[KurtFF8]

It's very likely that it was not a legal action. But is this particular military action of killing Osama bin Laden something we, as Leftists, ought to really focus on? Just because this is the major news story at the moment doesn't mean we need to be front and center criticizing it (although usually that is the case).

Had the US "obeyed international law" in capturing Osama bin Laden, would the Left feel that imperialism had not been promoted as much? I just think that with the case of the end of Osama, it's perhaps a time for the Left to step back and wait until the story settles a bit before we criticize this action (or should perhaps reconsider that line of argument).

And we certainly need to avoid any sort of conspiracy theory stuff, that would just lump any one talking about such conspiracies in with 9/11 truthers, "birthers," etc.

Speaking of "birthers", they are actually the ones out there crying conspiracy about the death of bin Laden. There was even a story that claimed they are "deathers" now or some silly thing like that.

[Jimmie Higgins]

The point is that the US is already defensive on the matter, sicking Eric Holder out on anyone who questions the legality of the killing.

What I want to know just what is he debating against? Where are the arguments against legality?

I think Holder said, "We had the legal right to kill him because he showed no sign of wanting to surrender". What, he like, the burst and said "you're under arrest" and he rolled his eyes and said "Whatever dudes" they shot him in the head? WTF is "no sign of wanting to surrender" - they aren't even claiming that he was trying to escape or attack, he just didn't want to surrender? Some weak shit that is... this is why I don't believe in vast conspiracy theories, the ruling class just has too much hubris to even hid their actions all that much.

[RadioRaheem84]

This thread was conspiracy free, Kurt.

Really though, I just wanted to show that the liberal establishment can be just as jingoisitc as the right wingers.

It just makes it worse because the liberal establishment gets taken far more seriously so their illegal actions get seen as "real" American policy while whatever a right winger does it "extremist".

[RadioRaheem84]

I think Holder said, "We had the legal right to kill him because he showed no sign of wanting to surrender". What, he like, the burst and said "you're under arrest" and he rolled his eyes and said "Whatever dudes" they shot him in the head? WTF is "no sign of wanting to surrender" - they aren't even claiming that he was trying to escape or attack, he just didn't want to surrender? Some weak shit that is... this is why I don't believe in vast conspiracy theories, the ruling class just has too much hubris to even hid their actions all that much.

Exactly. They're not even trying to come up with a good argument.

But do they have to? Liberals are eating this up in the media, hanging on his every word, and defending Obama like zealots for "doing something Bush couldn't".

People will not care about the legality or the fact that it was straight murder.

I am surprised these idiots do not care just how damn rogue the US has become not to mention how ballsy they are to just be like F you, no need to explain things.

[gestalt]

The point is that Obama engages in illegal acts too, yet liberals don't care.

Though he has not commented on the specific illegality claims yet, though I am anticipating it, this liberal (http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/index.html) has a fairly good track record.

Someone already mentioned him it seems.

[RadioRaheem84]

Glenn Greenwald and Jeremy Scahill are good progressives you can count on. But they're on the outskirts, really.

I was talking more about the liberal establishment; Rachel Maddow, Ed Schultz, The Young Turks, writers in Time, etc.