Chechnya

[EZLN88]

I was just wondering what everyone's idea was about the situation in Chechnya. I noticed many of you talk about the recent American imperialism involving Afghanistan and Iraq but do any of you realize what the Russian's have been doing to Chechnya for one hundred years? It was a common sight throughout the past centuries to see Russian soldiers coming into Chechnian villages: raping and pillaging. Why is it that no one focuses on that topic at all?

Also, what do you think of the Chechnian resistance? The problem down there is that it's more or less a fundamentalist Islamic state so right away people are making a connection between them and people like bin Laden. It was only a short while ago when the Chechen armed "rebels" took over a theater in Moscow. Then, most of the deaths that occurred in that situation were because of the Russians raiding the place although it was still blamed on the Chechens. Do you justify their actions? I certainly think they were well within their rights to do everything they have done. But, Putin used the events of 9/11 to gain American support for his situation. Before 9/11, Russians deemed the Chechens "rebels." After 9/11, the Russians deemed the Islamic terrorists, a term that was never before used to describe them. I know I'm rambling on and on but if you could give me some feedback about this, I'd greatly appreciate it.

[RyeN]

Comunisum is a hard enough sell already. We dont need to focus on the negatives in the sytem like the russians in Chechnya, or the fact that Stalin may have made some questionable leadership decisions.

The fact that the Americans were once in suport of something and now opposed to it is nothing new. That country has some real issues my friend.

[truthaddict11]

I believe that Chechnya has every right to break from Russian Imperialism.

I wish the Kaptain could see this thread

[EZLN88]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2003, 09:08 AM
Comunisum is a hard enough sell already. We dont need to focus on the negatives in the sytem like the russians in Chechnya, or the fact that Stalin may have made some questionable leadership decisions.

The fact that the Americans were once in suport of something and now opposed to it is nothing new. That country has some real issues my friend.
I'm not talking about Stalin making the decision to go into Chechnya, the decision to do that was made long before his time and during the communist era, there was less brutality there anyway. What I'm talking about, is the recent events.

And the reason communism is hard to sell is because of people like Stalin. The Russian government under him was nothing more than a dictatorship disguised with the word communism. That's exactly why everyone believes communism to be so horrible. They've been brainwashed by the capitalist government to believe that any communist government would be exactly like the one Stalin was involved in. No one takes the time to read about true communism and the positive effects it would have on our country.

[Hawker]

I say just give back the lands that we're taken from the Chechnya.The needs of the people,are the needs of the country.Those Russians they never stop,the Russians have shown us in the histroy books time and time again that they're an imperialistic and militaristic civilization,and even during the Soviet era they kept expanding.

[Zombie]

I agree with TA, can't wait to see the Kapitan's response on this... if he can post here at all

[IHP]

I think Andrey is restricted.

[Blackberry]

Chechnya for the Chechens.

[Saint-Just]

The Russian government under him was nothing more than a dictatorship disguised with the word communism. That's exactly why everyone believes communism to be so horrible. They've been brainwashed by the capitalist government to believe that any communist government would be exactly like the one Stalin was involved in. No one takes the time to read about true communism and the positive effects it would have on our country.

Consider this, the reason you think Stalin and Communism are 'so horrible' is because of you being 'brainwashed by the capitalist government'.

[EZLN88]

Originally posted by Chairman [email protected] 30 2003, 01:34 PM
Consider this, the reason you think Stalin and Communism are 'so horrible' is because of you being 'brainwashed by the capitalist government'.

I never said that I believe communism is horrible. I said that many people believe it's bad because they connect what Stalin did with real communism. I believe in the purest possible form of communism because in a pure form, without corruption, it would be a wonderful government system. And Stalin did nothing to help communism. He was a sadistic bastard that was responsible for the deaths of millions. Even the Soviets at the time could have told you that if they weren't so afraid of being purged from the country.

[Saint-Just]

To me you did suggest Communism was horrible since communism and Communism (as Party Communism, the traditional M-L Party) are synonymous with Stalin's practice of communism.

My point, however, was that you accuse westerners as being brainwashed by capitalists as to their view of communism. However, your view of Stalin is also a western capitalist view, so could you not have been brainwashed by western capitalists as to your view of Stalin similarly in the way that lies are told to the average westerner about communism in general.

[Cassius Clay]

Chechynia should belong to the Chechens as simple as that.

Russian Imperialism is only there because of the oil, American Imperialism only crys crocodicle tears over the Chechens because of the oil. It's the old game of Capitalists competing that's all. The west doesn't want Russia to become a rival, that's why they put NATO troops into the rest of the Caucasus (spell?). The Chechen bourgesie has had a falling out with the Russian Capitalists. This is partly to do with historical attidudes and ideology that of religion. But the key issue is a wider one, American Capitalists have long term planned their domination over the world's oil and natural rescources, and they see Russia as a threat. Which it would be if it got it's act together, but the Russian Capitalists aren't much of a threat while their tied up in Chechynia.

The Chechens have a right to self-determination, there lifes are worth more than rivallry between different groups of Russian bourgesie and American Imperialism. I say let the resistance to Russian invasion turn from a mafia-Islamic one into a genuine national war of liberation.

[EZLN88]

Are you trying to tell me that Stalin wasn't a bad guy? His practice of Communism was a joke. If he was such a great communist then tell me why he was living so high on the horse while the rest of Russia was starving and dying in the Gulags.

[Saint-Just]

I am not telling you that Stalin was a great guy but that your opinion of him could be as easily influenced by western capitalist brainwashing as the brainwashing you cited earlier where the average westerner is brainwashed about communism.

[EZLN88]

Originally posted by Cassius [email protected] 30 2003, 04:55 PM
Chechynia should belong to the Chechens as simple as that.

Russian Imperialism is only there because of the oil, American Imperialism only crys crocodicle tears over the Chechens because of the oil. It's the old game of Capitalists competing that's all. The west doesn't want Russia to become a rival, that's why they put NATO troops into the rest of the Caucasus (spell?). The Chechen bourgesie has had a falling out with the Russian Capitalists. This is partly to do with historical attidudes and ideology that of religion. But the key issue is a wider one, American Capitalists have long term planned their domination over the world's oil and natural rescources, and they see Russia as a threat. Which it would be if it got it's act together, but the Russian Capitalists aren't much of a threat while their tied up in Chechynia.

The Chechens have a right to self-determination, there lifes are worth more than rivallry between different groups of Russian bourgesie and American Imperialism. I say let the resistance to Russian invasion turn from a mafia-Islamic one into a genuine national war of liberation.
The Chechens are in a war for liberation. To this day they're fighting in the streets of their cities while Russians tanks roll down those same streets. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "mafia-Islam" that term doesn't make much sense to me. The entire area is Islamic, regardless of how the battle is fought, they're Islamic. And as far as I can tell, the American government hasn't really taken much of a look at Chechnya. To them, they're just another group of Islamic terrorists. Why, just the other week there was an article in Newsweek about bin Laden holding a huge terrorist summit and that there were representatives from Chechnya there. That's the first time I've ever read anything about Chechnya being connected to bin Laden and they've fundamental Muslims for a long time. But, I think that's a major preview as to US intentions for the future. They've just named a few more targets for the so called war on terrorism.

[RyeN]

Chechnya doesnt belong to anyone. Its just land and it belongs to everyone

[EZLN88]

RyeN, I believe that's the same type of thinking that the British had when they came to America. Of course, America was populated with Indians that have lived on this land for thousands of years before they were slaughtered and herded into reservations. The American land, in their eyes, belonged to everyone until they moved there and then it was there land. It's the same thing the Russians are doing to Chechnya. The Chechens have lived there for hundreds upon thousands of years. Are you saying that the Russian are justified to come in and kill everyone there because they want the oil deposits found there? That's the same thing as saying the British were justified to come to America and slaughter the indians because they wanted the land. It's ridiculous.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by Chairman [email protected] 30 2003, 05:43 PM
To me you did suggest Communism was horrible since communism and Communism (as Party Communism, the traditional M-L Party) are synonymous with Stalin's practice of communism.

My point, however, was that you accuse westerners as being brainwashed by capitalists as to their view of communism. However, your view of Stalin is also a western capitalist view, so could you not have been brainwashed by western capitalists as to your view of Stalin similarly in the way that lies are told to the average westerner about communism in general.
Do you think I'm brain washed then? I think that it is a very major flaw in your argument to assume that all those who believe Stalin to be evil to be brainwashed.

If that is the case then you could do with some brain washing. :D Just read Animal farm and cross Napoleon out and replace it with Stalin, and replace snowball with Trotsky.

"Twelve voices were shouting in anger, and they were all alike. No question, now, what had happened to the faces of the pigs. The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again: but it was already impossible to say which was which."

Animal Farm

[RED CHARO]

The 'mafias' role in the situation in Chechnya, refers to the Russian line about the rebels, when conflict first broke out .......Russians said that the Chechens were actually run by the Russian / Chechen mafia!
But the situation in Chechnya is very different from at the start of the conflict, as (from what I've heard) the rebels are now heaverly funded by Islamic Fundamentalist groups, such as Al qaeida and others (such as the Boznians in Boznia).... And thus they are now heaverly Fundamentalist alighned......