Greed and communism.

[UltraWright]

Let's face it: humans have been, are and will remain greedy. How is a communist system supposed to embrace the greed in the society?

[Manic Impressive]

"embrace the greed" I don't even......wtf

greed is caused by scarcity. If there is scarcity in society people will feel the need to hoarde and accumulate more commodities to prevent suffering scarcity themselves.

[UltraWright]

"embrace the greed" I don't even......wtf

greed is caused by scarcity. If there is scarcity in society people will feel the need to hoarde and accumulate more commodities to prevent suffering scarcity themselves.

Why do the megarich hoard their wealth instead of spending it on their pleasures or on investing on means of production? Because they are greedy!

[Manic Impressive]

They do it so they will never have to be in the situation where they have to struggle like the rest of us. I'm pretty sure they do spend a lot of it on luxuries and reinvesting for greater profits. Greed stems from the fear of going without.
That's not to say that there is not a culture of greed not only amongst the rich but among society as a whole but it all stems from the same thing.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Greed stems from the capitalist mode of production and the bourgeoisie creating unneeded commodities and forcing them on the public.Collectiblies,limited editions and other "exclusive" items are the vein in which greed travels.The "desire" to own more than a competitor is what drives greed-not a internal force native to humans.

A communist system will eliminate pointless commodities while fostering a system of mutual sharing;as a result,greed will gradually be eliminated.

[Manic Impressive]

I wouldn't say it stems from capitalism as greed is prevelent throughout human history. If anything capitalism comes from greed not the other way around.

[WeAreReborn]

Let's face it: humans have been, are and will remain greedy. How is a communist system supposed to embrace the greed in the society?
The whole point is to destroy the need for greed. Capitalism takes greed and helps it to flourish. That is why today the world is full of useless wars, poverty etc. Under Communism however, there would be no use for greed. If everyone is ensured everything they need then one does not have to revert to primitive like behavior. As Manic said, greed comes from fear. Communism seeks to eliminate this fear.

[#FF0000]

Let's face it: humans have been, are and will remain greedy.

Prove it.

[Lanky Wanker]

Prove it.

I don't really think that's something you can prove.

[Lanky Wanker]

Prove it.

I don't really think that's something you can prove.

[CHEtheLIBERATOR]

In communism, the system would make public greed near impossible, private greed would fade over time

No embracing greed

[miltonwasfried...man]

I believe we have also been indoctrinated in a culture of greed from a young age. We are bombarded with advertisements for things that we do not need, we are told that the rich are successful and we should aspire to be like them and finally that money will set you free from poverty. When in reality money is what keeps us in our chains, keeps us crawling over our brothers and sisters to reach the top of the capitalist hill. A shift in what is of true value to the people is the only way to make greed obsolete. Start the change by making a good example and boycott materialism. Lead a fufilling life with family and friends. Find happiness and show you can live simply but still have a very rich life.

[SacRedMan]

The only greedy on communism is that you can take property for own needs.

[#FF0000]

I don't really think that's something you can prove.

Then it's not a statement that someone can make or base a worldview on.

[NewSocialist]

Isn't it a bit naive to think that greed is solely the product of capitalism and is an attribute that will somehow magically disappear once capitalism has been transcended? You don't think people were greedy in hunter-gatherer societies or during Feudalism?

I think the communist position should be that we're going to construct economic institutions wherein an individual's greed becomes largely irrelevant since he or she wouldn't be able to consume more than anyone else (given the amount of time they labor and the effort they display on the job).

[taka því rólega]

Forgive me if I'm incorrect in assuming so, but weren't people in hunter-gatherer societies effectively living in a form of primitive communism? As in, those who could hunt hunted and provided meat for the group, and were provided for in vegetation etc.

The changes in human nature along with those of society's structure are obviously very hard to decipher, as Rousseau details in On The Origin Of Inequality, so it would indeed be foolish to base any view on a particular system or ideology on this assumption.

It seems to me that greed has to have increased in society along with the development of the capitalist system... obviously the root cause of greed is property as it is to inequality, so I would imagine greed in human beings began to spread and "evolve" with the settlement/domestication of tribes and the rise of property amongst them.

Surely as the focus of society on products and property has grown, this acts to encourage and enshrine greed as the aspiration of life? Is greed not the fundamental basis of a capitalist society?

Hope that made sense.

[RNL]

A few points about the notion that humans are 'naturally greedy' and 'naturally selfish':

1) The propositions make no sense. When we say that a person is 'greedy', we mean that they want more than they should have, or than is rightfully theirs. When we say a person is 'selfish', we mean that they are excessively concerned with themselves, that they lack an appropriate concern for others. These are value judgements, and as such they are socially constructed. There is no sense in which people can be 'naturally greedy' or 'naturally selfish'. It makes no more sense than claiming that people are 'naturally rude' or 'naturally funny' or 'naturally jerks'.

(Now, if you were to claim that humans are naturally self-interested, then that's more reasonable. We are social animals, but we are also self-interested. The important thing to note here is that this is in no sense an obstacle to the struggle for socialism: it is clearly in the self-interest of the world's poor to oppose the system that makes them poor.)

This--that the proposition is literally nonsense--should be sufficient, but, if not:

2) Even if it did make sense, and were true, it would still not constitute a coherent apology for capitalism, since a characteristic's 'naturalness' does not imply its social desirability. Even if people were demonstrably 'naturally greedy', it does not follow that society should encourage and facilitate the indulgence of that greed, any more than people's 'natural lustfulness' implies the need to legalize rape, or their 'natural aggressiveness' does the need to legalize assault and murder, or become cheerleaders for war.

3) Even if it did make sense, and were true, and we assumed this implied the need to structure society in a way that was conducive to the indulgence of this 'natural greed', it would still not constitute a coherent apology for capitalism. Because if this was the case, you might just as logically argue for the legalization of theft as for the retention of private property; that is, you might just as well argue for the violation of property rights as for their protection. So, even if we bend over backwards to accommodate the proposition--assuming that it makes sense when it doesn't, assuming that it's true when it can't be, assuming that it implies certain social imperatives when it doesn't--even going to such lengths to entertain the idea, it is still incoherent.

[Taikand]

May I point to some experiments made on lab rats?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber#Skinner_Box
Sorry for being evasive, but I can't quote actual studies now, I don't have the necessary time.
Basically they put a mammal (lab rat, hamster, something like that) in a cage where it had a lever that gave him food.Press the lever, you get food, simple. At the beginning the rat pressed said lever to get food, more and more, until he realized that the lever will always be there, therefore there was no need for it to hoard food.Having the certainty that food is always within reach, hoarding food became useless.

Another experiment, the same setting, only that the lever didn't always dispense food, it had a random chance( chance that became lower every time he succeeded in winning .That's when the hamster had a behavior that resembles those of gamblers, thinking that the next one might be the lucky one.

Therefore , if humans will have the certainty that commodities will always be there for them, they'll stop hoarding (unless there is some psychological problem to said person). Hoarding itself will take them time, which they could use for other, more enjoyable activities.

[taka því rólega]

I understand what you're trying to say, but I feel it may be somewhat irrelevant to the argument at hand.

Perhaps the relevant analogy is that when people know they will be provided for, they do not act "selfishly" to try and attain more than others, rather than in capitalism where people tend to try and accumulate as much as possible for fear of having nothing.

[Rafiq]

Let's face it: humans have been, are and will remain greedy. How is a communist system supposed to embrace the greed in the society?

Humans have been greedy due to the conditions and systems they were born into, which have encouraged the illusionist option of greed.

The reality of the matter is that not many humans at all even have the option to be greedy.

98% of the world right now can't get a mansion, or extremely nice cars.

Now what is greed?

People wanting more 'stuff' people not being satisfied with the goods that they have, even if they have plenty?

What do you expect, we live in a society of consumerism, of corporate brainwashing of children via the TV.

There is no human nature.

[Rafiq]

Why do the megarich hoard their wealth instead of spending it on their pleasures or on investing on means of production? Because they are greedy!

Again, because of scarcity. They live in a society of scarcity and don't want to risk losing the money they got via exploiting the workers of society.

[robbo203]

Let's face it: humans have been, are and will remain greedy. How is a communist system supposed to embrace the greed in the society?


If humans have been, are and will remain greedy how come the majority allow a tiny minority to appropriate the wealth produced by the majority in return for a pittance called a wage?

Why do the workers accept the crumbs from their masters table instead of organising to take over the bakery?

I dont think greed figures as a reason - more like the lack of it

[Thirsty Crow]

I don't really think that's something you can prove.That's the point. As Rosa would say (I sure miss her sometimes), the original statement is non-sensical.