Was Marx himself a Marxist?

[UltraWright]

Somebody told me that Marx himself was not a Marxist? Is that true? If so, then why?

[Manic Impressive]

When he heard that some guys in France were calling themselves Marxist he said "If anything is certain, it is that I myself am not a Marxist". Quite a normal response I think for someone with even an ounce of humility.

If you define being a Marxist as agreeing with Marx's conclusions about capitalism and society then I'm pretty sure he was a Marxist unless he just thought he was spouting bullshit :lol:

[Rooster]

"Ce qu'il y a de certain c'est que moi, je ne suis pas Marxiste."

- Marx in a letter to Bernstein, 1882

Marx was pretty much saying that the people had misread him.

EDIT: Ug, Manic beat me to it!

[The Douche]

When he heard that some guys in France were calling themselves Marxist he said "If anything is certain, it is that I myself am not a Marxist". Quite a normal response I think for someone with even an ounce of humility.

If you define being a Marxist as agreeing with Marx's conclusions about capitalism and society then I'm pretty sure he was a Marxist unless he just thought he was spouting bullshit :lol:

Actually, it was not about humility, an organization was calling itself Marxist but Marx did not agree with them.

[Manic Impressive]

true dat I'd forgotten about that bit although I still think humility had a lot to do with it

[CHEtheLIBERATOR]

Uhhhhhhhh!!! MARX WAS A MARXIST. It's myth he wasn't. He had no financial gain in writing das Kapital orcommunist manifesto

[unfriendly]

Marx not considering himself a Marxist had more to do with his invalidation of the contributions of individuals to world events than any sort of humility or disagreement with the finer points of the group's organizational structure or whatever. He simply believed that history followed a linear and inevitable path, and that his own contribution thereto was all but irrelevant.

[ʇsıɥɔɹɐuɐ ıɯɐbıɹo]

Just as Jesus wouldn't be a Christian today but a Reformist Jew, Marx wasn't a Marxist in todays sense, but he had his own ideas about it.

[Savage]

This (http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=2133)is likely to be relevant.

[Vanguard1917]

Yes - he was the co-founder of Marxism along with Freddy E.

[Manic Impressive]

Marx not considering himself a Marxist had more to do with his invalidation of the contributions of individuals to world events than any sort of humility or disagreement with the finer points of the group's organizational structure or whatever. He simply believed that history followed a linear and inevitable path, and that his own contribution thereto was all but irrelevant.
In my opinion that's a fairly humble position to take. He could easily have acted like Lenin and said "all you guys are thick I should be leader of all working class movement!!!!!11"

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

In 1880 Marx collaborated with the French organizer Jules Guesde on a program for the Parti Ouvrier. However, Marx included a list of achievable demands within the framework of capitalism. Guesde insisted that only impossible demands should be included, achievable demands would lure the workers into complacency.


Accusing Guesde and Lafargue of “revolutionary phrase-mongering” and of denying the value of reformist struggles, Marx made his famous remark that, if their politics represented Marxism, “ce qu'il y a de certain c'est que moi, je ne suis pas Marxiste” (“what is certain is that I myself am not a Marxist”).- Engels in a letter to Eduard Bernstein. (Marx and Engels, Werke, Vol. 35. p.388.)

Hmmm... "denying the value of reformist struggles=not a Marxist. Can I see a show of hands?

[hatzel]

In my opinion that's a fairly humble position to take. He could easily have acted like Lenin and said "all you guys are thick I should be leader of all working class movement!!!!!11"

Is that a direct quote? From which of Lenin's many glorious writings did you take that one? 'What is to be done?', I'm sure, maybe in the 5th chapter...

[Rafiq]

No, these French guys misinterperated his writings, and when he found out that they called themselves Marxists, he said "If That's Marxism, I'm no Marxist".

[unfriendly]

Is that a direct quote? From which of Lenin's many glorious writings did you take that one? 'What is to be done?', I'm sure, maybe in the 5th chapter...

Actions speak louder than words. He didn't need to say it explicitly; he did it explicitly.

[Zanthorus]

Engels in a letter to Eduard Bernstein. (Marx and Engels, Werke, Vol. 35. p.388.)

I don't believe that is actually a quote from Engels. It refers to Marx making his 'famous remark' that he was not a Marxist, but how can it have been a famous remark if Engels had only just relayed the quote in what I believe is the first written source for the quote. In fact, the Marxist Internet Archive version of the letter has the quote as follows:


Now what is known as ‘Marxism’ in France is, indeed, an altogether peculiar product — so much so that Marx once said to Lafargue: ‘Ce qu'il y a de certain c'est que moi, je ne suis pas Marxiste.’

Here there is no reference to reformism, but merely a statement that French Marxism is an 'altogether peculiar product, and if you read the rest of the letter, this is mostly a passing remark - Engels' overall purpose is to defend the Parti Ouvrier from various criticisms made by Bernstein. I did a google search for the particular version which you quote, and I found an exact match, not in any actual works by Marx and Engels, but in the editors introduction to the Parti Ouvrier programme. I don't believe that the interpolations of the MECW editors are a valid of way of arbitrating between disputes surrounding Marx/Engels interpretation however. I reccomend reading the link provided by Savage, where ZeroNowhere provided several plausible explanations for the quote than a dispute over the economic section of the programme (Which I believe was actually written by Guesde anyway).

[Hoipolloi Cassidy]

I found an exact match, not in any actual works by Marx and Engels, but in the editors introduction to the Parti Ouvrier programme. I don't believe that the interpolations of the MECW editors are a valid of way of arbitrating between disputes surrounding Marx/Engels interpretation however.

Correct, and thanks for the correction. I was, indeed, quoting from the editors; who in passing, give five separate footnotes to justify their interpretation - which is mine, obviously. Unfortunately, unless you can point me to a serious, point-by-point refutation of the editor's statement by a serious Marx researcher, their interpretation will have to stand, all the more so as I don't know that anyone's shown that the editors had a pro-reformist bias, or any other motive to falsify the record. "Plausibility" from an anonymous blogger doesn't set the bar high enough.

Cordially, Hoipolloi Cassidy.

[ZeroNowhere]

Correct, and thanks for the correction. I was, indeed, quoting from the editors; who in passing, give five separate footnotes to justify their interpretation - which is mine, obviously.
They actually give two citations from a single book, only one of which has to do with Marx's views (the other, pg. 107 of the book, only deals with Guesde.) I've looked up the book itself on Google Books, and while I could find the Guesde quote on pg. 107, I didn't find the pg. 11 quote either from the page itself, page xi, or from searching for 'Marx' or 'phrase-mongering', so I can't really comment on that.

Nonetheless, while it is conceivable that Marx may have referred to the rejection of working class economic and political struggle as phrase-mongering, in a similar vein to 'Political Indifferentism', which would be valid, I doubt he would have used the word 'reformist', which I only recall him using to characterize the democratic petit-bourgeoisie in contrast to the proletariat whose demands are revolutionary in nature, and which would be inappropriate in such a context. That would be rather an attack on Guesde for viewing working class struggles as reformist rather than revolutionary, which would also be implicitly an attack on later 'ethical socialisms' and such (eg. Tugan's, the SPGB's, that of most 'consciousness raising' strains of socialism, etc), and not something particularly novel in Marx.