Rape Culture [Archive]

The Douche

3rd May 2011, 15:02

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture

In short, its a term used to describe societies in which women are subjected to violence, including rape/physical violence, and emotional/psychological violence, such as the way that many men (and women) normalize violence towards women in language ("man, taxes raped my paycheck") or with jokes (woman in the kitchen jokes).

As for abuse of women, is it common? Is that a serious fucking question man? In the US alone, somebody is sexually assaulted every 2 minutes, the vast majority of these are women. And thats just the US. And to tie that into "rape culture", 60% of sexual assaults are never even reported, because we live in a world of victim blaming.

Sword and Shield

3rd May 2011, 15:21

Does anyone have more information on what this term means and some information about it? Or about abuse against women in general? How common is it?

It means there is a culture which causes rape. Rape may even be considered acceptable or masculine in such a culture. In American society (which I'm most familiar with), for example, while violently physical rape may not be accepted, there is a "conquest" culture to masculinity and sex, that along with drinking and general patriarchal relations, is conducive to rape.

Here's something that I find really relevant as a college student: http://www.crisisconnectioninc.org/sexualassault/college_campuses_and_rape.htm

Also, if you have access to this wonderful book by Parenti, it has a chapter on "The Universal Rape Culture" iirc: http://www.michaelparenti.org/CultureStruggle.html

Princess Luna

3rd May 2011, 15:33

In short, its a term used to describe societies in which women are subjected to violence, including rape/physical violence, and emotional/psychological violence, such as the way that many men (and women) normalize violence towards women in language ("man, taxes raped my paycheck") or with jokes (woman in the kitchen jokes).

As for abuse of women, is it common? Is that a serious fucking question man? In the US alone, somebody is sexually assaulted every 2 minutes, the vast majority of these are women. And thats just the US. And to tie that into "rape culture", 60% of sexual assaults are never even reported, because we live in a world of victim blaming.
I agree with most of this except the idea that using the word "rape" to describe things other then sexual assault normalizes violence towards women, the word rape means to ravage or destroy in a sexual or non-sexual way, a example would be "the rape of Africa" to describe the treatment of Africa by European colonists. Also one problem i find with the idea of "rape culture" is the fact if you find a typical macho collage male and ask him what the punishment for rape should be, the response will most likely involve a knife, a broomstick, or both.

The Douche

3rd May 2011, 15:42

I agree with most of this except the idea that using the word "rape" to describe things other then sexual assault normalizes violence towards women, the word rape means to ravage or destroy, a example would be "the rape of Africa" to describe the treatment of Africa by European colonists.

Africa was (is) raped, both in the sense the settlers usually sexually assault native populations in order to destroy bloodlines, and because its naturual resources and wealth were (are) taken.

So yes, I agree, Africa was raped, but when your sports team lost it certainly was not "raped". (not saying that you personally use the word so flippantly)

Princess Luna

3rd May 2011, 15:50

Africa was (is) raped, both in the sense the settlers usually sexually assault native populations in order to destroy bloodlines, and because its naturual resources and wealth were (are) taken.

So yes, I agree, Africa was raped, but when your sports team lost it certainly was not "raped". (not saying that you personally use the word so flippantly)
But once again, because the word rape has its origins in "to destroy" , saying that another sports team raped you, would not be sexist. but granted there are better words to use.

The Douche

3rd May 2011, 15:55

EvilRedGuy

3rd May 2011, 16:01

The Douche

4th May 2011, 04:07

Haha. No. Read the comment above yours again.

Keep. Supporting. Rape. Culture. Bro.

Princess Luna

4th May 2011, 04:23

Summerspeaker

4th May 2011, 04:28

Also one problem i find with the idea of "rape culture" is the fact if you find a typical macho collage male and ask him what the punishment for rape should be, the response will most likely involve a knife, a broomstick, or both.

Depends on the circumstances. Consider these young gents at Yale (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynenGHFJ33E), for example.

The Douche

4th May 2011, 04:38

It may vary from place to place, but at least where I live rape can mean both sexual assault and to destroy. The former meaning of the word is more common but the latter is still used.

Whatever you say bro. I don't know any woman who agrees that its okay to use the word in such a context. So obviously you're going to continue on, saying whatever you want. But getting defensive doesn't excuse you from condoning rape culture. You're just another leftist who refuses to recognize their own privilege. (that of male status) Just like other leftists don't recognize male privilege or straight privilege.

unfriendly

4th May 2011, 07:39

And to tie that into "rape culture", 60% of sexual assaults are never even reported, because we live in a world of victim blaming.

Woah, hold up here, the idea that 40% of sexual assaults are reported is *ridiculous*. Sexual assault is an everyday thing that happens to everyone who isn't a cisman ALL THE FUCKING TIME. I personally have experienced enough that the trauma gave me a serious mental illness and I just don't go outside anymore. I'll tell you that I certainly didn't "report" 40% of them.

I don't know a single person who is not a cisman who has never been sexually assaulted and not too many who haven't been raped.

it is a pervasive thing. it affects every aspect of the life of anyone who is not a cis male.

But once again, because the word rape has its origins in "to destroy" , saying that another sports team raped you, would not be sexist. but granted there are better words to use.

No, it's fucking sexist and your cis-male ass does not get to decide what is sexist and what isn't. The word "rape" has no power over you but to someone who lives *every day* with the constant FEAR OF RAPE, which you wouldn't know a goddamn thing about, and who has quite possibly been raped themselves, then why the FUCK are you using that word carelessly.

I'm not fuckin' around here. People I love have been raped. I've been threatened and I live in constant fear of being raped. Do NOT fuck around with rape.

bailey_187

4th May 2011, 13:12

Princess Luna

4th May 2011, 14:51

Woah, hold up here, the idea that 40% of sexual assaults are reported is *ridiculous*. Sexual assault is an everyday thing that happens to everyone who isn't a cisman ALL THE FUCKING TIME. I personally have experienced enough that the trauma gave me a serious mental illness and I just don't go outside anymore. I'll tell you that I certainly didn't "report" 40% of them.

I don't know a single person who is not a cisman who has never been sexually assaulted and not too many who haven't been raped.

it is a pervasive thing. it affects every aspect of the life of anyone who is not a cis male.

No, it's fucking sexist and your cis-male ass does not get to decide what is sexist and what isn't. The word "rape" has no power over you but to someone who lives *every day* with the constant FEAR OF RAPE, which you wouldn't know a goddamn thing about, and who has quite possibly been raped themselves, then why the FUCK are you using that word carelessly.

I'm not fuckin' around here. People I love have been raped. I've been threatened and I live in constant fear of being raped. Do NOT fuck around with rape.
Of course i don't get to decide what words mean , the English langue does that and for the record i don't even use the word rape to describe anything other then sexual assault. Even though i don't think the word is sexist, there are still much better words to use.

CesareBorgia

4th May 2011, 15:27

rape- –verb (used with object)
1.
to force to have sexual intercourse.
2.
to plunder (a place); despoil.
3.
to seize, take, or carry off by force.

The Douche

4th May 2011, 16:26

this is serious question before i get "unfriendly" or someone else telling me to shut my "cis-male ass!!11" (what does that mean btw)

Why is it bad to say for exmaple "i raped that exam" as opposed to "i murderd that exam"? Or with Cmoney's example of a paycheck, why is it not as bad to say "they murderd my paycheck"?

Both use the word that desrcibes a horrible and violent crime that people fear, and effects a lot of people.

I'm sure that a person who has had their life touched by violent crime would be pretty distressed to hear you use the word in such a way.

But the reason the word "rape" is being discussed hear is because rape culture is part of patriarchy, and its something the left has to confront. I know also, that confronting rape culture is starting to bring a lot of women I know who were previously not interested in radical politics into contact with radical ideas/radical people, and getting them interested in the real solutions to patriarchy.

PhoenixAsh

4th May 2011, 16:55

Yes, 800 years ago it did mean that, it carries a different connotation now, if you say rape, we know what it implies.

If you say your sports team got raped and they were not made to have sex against their will, then you are an active participant in rape culture. And you are reinforcing patriarchy.

True...but this does not imply "women". 1 in 10 men get sexually assaulted. 2 in 10 if you count child abuse. Most of these do not even get to anything like a policeoffice....mostly because of gender roles and the inherent shame of being a man and being sexually violated. Also because there is a perpetuated myth by both men and women that men can not be raped....especially not by a woman. So if you do file charges...you get to have all the nice experiences and nothing at all gets done with it.

Cisman

Definition: A cisman, shorthand for "cissexual man" or "cisgender man," is non-transsexual man--a man whose assigned gender is male, and whose assigned male gender is more or less consistent with his personal sense of self. This distinguishes him from transmen, shorthand for "transsexual men"--men who were initially assigned a female gender, but have a male identity. If you identify as a man but are not a transsexual man, you're a cisman.

No, it's fucking sexist and your cis-male ass does not get to decide what is sexist and what isn't. The word "rape" has no power over you but to someone who lives *every day* with the constant FEAR OF RAPE, which you wouldn't know a goddamn thing about,See my answer to cmoney.

and who has quite possibly been raped themselves, then why the FUCK are you using that word carelessly. Because it has other meanings and you do not have to constantly reapply the word on your own experience. though I agree that it adds an edge to a statement.

I'm sure that a person who has had their life touched by violent crime would be pretty distressed to hear you use the word in such a way.

Not especially.

Though I have difficulty with jokes about it. They make me angry.

Imposter Marxist

4th May 2011, 17:04

Actually, most rape victims I know get slightly uncomftrable or offended if you use it in that way.

Anyway, thank you all for the info!

PhoenixAsh

4th May 2011, 18:11

Maybe for me it may be the language which disasociates it?! I don't know. The word is different in Dutch.

It doesn't bug me as much as other things.

unfriendly

4th May 2011, 20:48

Maybe for me it may be the language which disasociates it?! I don't know. The word is different in Dutch.

It doesn't bug me as much as other things.

Pardon me for pointing out the obvious, but *maybe* it's because you're a cis male.

The argument isn't whether it's valid or not to not like the word "rape" used inappropriately. I have a violent gut-level reaction to many words, and rape is one of them.

It hurts. Stop it.

I know also, that confronting rape culture is starting to bring a lot of women I know who were previously not interested in radical politics into contact with radical ideas/radical people, and getting them interested in the real solutions to patriarchy.

Really? Because I don't think the real solution to patriarchy has anything to do with a forum thread full of cismen acting surprised that people have a personal connection to rape.

L.A.P.

4th May 2011, 21:24

PhoenixAsh

4th May 2011, 21:32

Pardon me for pointing out the obvious, but *maybe* it's because you're a cis male.

The argument isn't whether it's valid or not to not like the word "rape" used inappropriately. I have a violent gut-level reaction to many words, and rape is one of them.

It hurts. Stop it.

Or maybe you should read between the lines...and figure out what I am NOT saying....its really that obvious. Or do you want me to spell it out for you?

Also...get lost with your labels.

Really? Because I don't think the real solution to patriarchy has anything to do with a forum thread full of cismen acting surprised that people have a personal connection to rape.

This as not something I said. So I'd appreciate it if you correct your quote to the user who did.

I also have something to say about this...since you obviously are so bussy being all defensive and passive agressive that you are unable to see and asses accurately what is right in front of you and basically managed to insult me to a deep personal level here and what you are saying is extremely hurtful in more ways than one...now I can accept that...since I am used to that. But since you do not feel the need to stay nice and civil about it, and since I just had to deal with the exact same shit in the real world...I am going to take your post as a like for like offer from you.

As you obviously think men...or as you insist to put lables on it: cismen... have no idea what the patriarchy is, obviously do not have a say in what is sexist or not and are according to your logic totally oblivious and impervious from any kind of abuse and suffering from that very same patriarchy...wether institutionalised or not...

I have got news for you.

Not all men are so privileged. Maybe they do not face the same level of repression but on an induvidual basis your nice theories and nice rethorics mean jack-shit.

And your labels and opinion generalise me into a category in which I have never belonged and ascribe behaviour to me based on my percieved gender which is not my gender role nor my way of life nor accurately ascibes my thoughs, feelings or actions....merely based on my sex an my sexual preference.

Basically you are currently enforcing the patriarchies gender roles on me...by assuming based on your preconceived biggotted notions that you have a right to put a label on me and talk to me and deal with me based on that label.

So between the patriarchy being enforced on me by the system...I also have to face the same enforcement from some self ascribed radical feminists, be they men or women, who "assume" and treat me based on their preconceived notions of gender based on sex as being part of it.

Get the catch22 there?

I am not part of the patriarchy, I have been placed outside the patriarchy since I can remember, I do not consciously benefit from it...though on some levels I obviously am, I suffered and still suffer from it...though that suffering may be less than some women and more than others, and I am trying to fight it.... And yet...the ones who are supposed to be allies do the exact same to me.

So there is your fucking sexe unity right there for you.

Now I obviously do not have any idea how it is to be a woman not being one...but it seems to me that you have no clue what it is to be a "cisman" in this world who does not belong and was always tought that he did not belong....nor do you have any clue who I am and what my experiences are.

So to wrap it up...you are the one here putting labels on people. Currently you are the one being devisive. And you just met the person who invalidates most of what you say here.

The Douche

4th May 2011, 22:37

Really? Because I don't think the real solution to patriarchy has anything to do with a forum thread full of cismen acting surprised that people have a personal connection to rape.

Because the discussion of rape culture isn't going on anywhere outside of this website. Don't act like an idiot, nobody is even talking about rape culture on here, this is the first thread I have ever seen using the term, and nobody here even understands it, some are even defending it.

There is however a real movement starting around rape culture, and possibly even a resurgence of feminism developing, one which has a radical analysis, and an analysis which includes LGBT people. Of course revleft does not reflect this, cause its full of cismen (myself included).

unfriendly

4th May 2011, 23:26

From what I know, a cisgendered person is someone who identifies with their gender at birth so basically the opposite of transgendered. You seem to be using the word "cisgendered" as if it's a negative attribute that should be taken as an insult. Therefore, I'm kind of getting the impression that you dislike or hate cisgendered people or cisgendered males at the least. Ummm, yeah.

I really don't want to be the one to say this but why do I feel like we're being trolled very well?

I use it to point out that being the privileged half of power dynamics gives you an impediment to understanding how they feel from the other end.

You feel like you're being trolled because your gut reaction is to invalidate the feelings of anyone who calls you on your shit.

wall of privilege denial

No. You are a cisman. You are not sexually assaulted on a constant basis. Your interaction with cismen does not consist of them asserting their sexual dominance over you in subtle ways. Yes power dynamics suck. No I'm not a fan of my white privilege. I still have it. I still play into it.

The only people who I've heard complain about labels are the ones who experience labels consciously as such. When I'm labeled it's because someone is sexually assaulting me or beating the shit out of me.

I am labeled because of the fact that nobody fucking listens to me because of the overwhelming presence of men in spaces I frequent. I am labeled because of the high probability that the man I am talking to is sexually assaulting me in his mind right now, and because I need to make sure it stays in his mind. I am labeled because every time I meet a new person I have to explain what the fuck my gender is. So there's YOUR fucking "sex unity".

Suck it up because the world is made for you and you obviously have no understanding of what that means.

Because the discussion of rape culture isn't going on anywhere outside of this website. Don't act like an idiot, nobody is even talking about rape culture on here, this is the first thread I have ever seen using the term, and nobody here even understands it, some are even defending it.

There is however a real movement starting around rape culture, and possibly even a resurgence of feminism developing, one which has a radical analysis, and an analysis which includes LGBT people. Of course revleft does not reflect this, cause its full of cismen (myself included).

I agree that there's not nearly enough discussion of the subject, but to act like this is the first time the conversation has ever happened is super erroneous. The discussion is happening; you yourself just said there's a real movement surrounding it, so the ignorance surrounding the subject here is a failure of the participants here to educate themselves and let's not dress it up as anything else.

The word "idiot" is an ableist diagnostic term used to describe people with developmental disabilities.

The Douche

5th May 2011, 00:48

I agree that there's not nearly enough discussion of the subject, but to act like this is the first time the conversation has ever happened is super erroneous. The discussion is happening; you yourself just said there's a real movement surrounding it, so the ignorance surrounding the subject here is a failure of the participants here to educate themselves and let's not dress it up as anything else.

And you yourself just directed this comment towards me:

Really? Because I don't think the real solution to patriarchy has anything to do with a forum thread full of cismen acting surprised that people have a personal connection to rape.

And so I adressed the discussion of rape culture on this website vs. the dicussion of rape culture in the real world.

But you're not interested in having a real discussion, just trolling. Though you are obviously an educated troll, probably even a revolutionary in real life, you are clearly trolling on here.

The word "idiot" is an ableist diagnostic term used to describe people with developmental disabilities.

Who doesn't have developmental disabilities these days?

L.A.P.

5th May 2011, 00:54

I use it to point out that being the privileged half of power dynamics gives you an impediment to understanding how they feel from the other end.

And I use honky and cracker to point out that being the privileged ethnicity of power dynamics gives European people an impediment to understanding how non-Europeans feel from the other end.:rolleyes:

You feel like you're being trolled because your gut reaction is to invalidate the feelings of anyone who calls you on your shit.

Making assumptions about me because of gender and sexuality while assuming what my gender and sexuality is without any basis is kind of counterproductive to fighting sexism, homophobia, and transphobia, don't you think?

Broletariat

5th May 2011, 01:14

I always like threads like this that make me realise I'm an asshole and then I can change it before someone calls me on it.

unfriendly

5th May 2011, 01:20

And so I adressed the discussion of rape culture on this website vs. the dicussion of rape culture in the real world.

But you're not interested in having a real discussion, just trolling. Though you are obviously an educated troll, probably even a revolutionary in real life, you are clearly trolling on here.

So you're saying that this topic is an effort by the participants to educate themselves? Well, okay. I'm experiencing it as an effort by the participants to get someone else to explain it to them (so they can invalidate me). There is a difference between having a conversation and having someone say explicitly "please explain this basic concept to me".

Who doesn't have developmental disabilities these days?

More privilege denial. I have struggled with my developmental disability for my whole life. I've also dealt with people all too happy to tell me that I'm faking it.

Making assumptions about me because of gender and sexuality while assuming what my gender and sexuality is without any basis is kind of counterproductive to fighting sexism, homophobia, and transphobia, don't you think?

Your profile clearly states that you are male. I don't care if you're a gay male because you still aren't on the receiving end of rape culture. I don't care if you're a trans male because you are still saying sexist bullshit.

Invalidating what I have to say, on the other hand, is obviously very conducive to fighting sexism and transphobia. I'm going to be honest and say that I don't understand how homophobia came into this discussion.

RedSunRising

5th May 2011, 01:20

I always like threads like this that make me realise I'm an asshole and then I can change it before someone calls me on it.

"Paleo-feminism" tends to get majorly attacked on this forum but its worth reading up on. Also the fight for women's liberation and its failures in the Socialist countries that have existed and in the process of people's war. The major feminist struggle in the world for us to be able choose boyfriends and husbands. That sounds small but its huge.

PhoenixAsh

5th May 2011, 01:21

No. You are a cisman. You are not sexually assaulted on a constant basis.

Unlike you I have been raped. Twice. So basically...the next words out of your mouth I want to hear are that you are very fucking sorry.

Your interaction with cismen does not consist of them asserting their sexual dominance over you in subtle ways.

No? Because I think you are full of shit and have no idea what you are talking about there. You have NO fucking clue about who I am, what my life has been like.

But hey...I am a man, I am heterosexual....so I must be conforming with YOUR ideas about gender. Noooo....this is not sexist AT ALL.

Yes power dynamics suck. No I'm not a fan of my white privilege. I still have it. I still play into it.

You also have sexism and biggotry to deal with....get on it.

The only people who I've heard complain about labels are the ones who experience labels consciously as such.

...ask yourself why they experience these labels consciously as such.

When I'm labeled it's because someone is sexually assaulting me or beating the shit out of me. I am labeled because of the fact that nobody fucking listens to me because of the overwhelming presence of men in spaces I frequent. I am labeled because of the high probability that the man I am talking to is sexually assaulting me in his mind right now, and because I need to make sure it stays in his mind. I am labeled because every time I meet a new person I have to explain what the fuck my gender is. So there's YOUR fucking "sex unity".

But I'll tell you what...none of that is happening on a radical leftwing forum...now is it. So instead you chose to attack me because of your own biggotted notions and false assumptions...and had the fucking guts to label me and tell me how my life, which you know nothing about, is like.

You even have the fucking guts to tell me:

Suck it up because the world is made for you and you obviously have no understanding of what that means.

...when you are saying how awful this rape culture is to somebody who has been through that shit twice....

So basically...of all the persons here in this thread...YOU are the one perpetuating that very same culture.

RedSunRising

5th May 2011, 01:25

http://www.mimdown.org/mt/mt2and3.pdf

MIM get slagged a lot, and yes they were ultraleftist both in their position on gender and their "third worldism" but this is really worth reading.

I found a paper copy of this in a second hand book shop at a particular point in my life and it changed me a lot. I really recommend it.

5th May 2011, 01:50

Originally Posted by hindsight20/20

Originally Posted by unfriendly http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2101109#post2101109)
No. You are a cisman. You are not sexually assaulted on a constant basis. Unlike you I have been raped. Twice.It is really crazy to me that people who have been subjected to sexual abuse would so readily throw it around on the internet to give cred to their forum arguments. I think this entire style of "debate" is really in horrible taste.

If 'unfriendly' wants to be a sanctimonious dick to people for no reason, it might be more constructive if people just ignored his comments altogether rather than allowing themselves to get baited into an endless flamewar with absolutely zero actual content.

RedSunRising

5th May 2011, 01:53

It is really crazy to me that people who have been subjected to sexual abuse would so readily throw it around on the internet to give cred to their forum arguments. I think this entire style of "debate" is really in horrible taste.

It is to me too...But I have come out with personal stuff (when drunk) that in real life I keep very close to my chest on the internet. The fact that well who can tell really if its you here, kinda encourages that.

gorillafuck

5th May 2011, 01:56

I'm also kinda confused as to how saying "that exam raped me" is different from "that exam murdered me". (not that I use the word rape in that way, I don't)

PhoenixAsh

5th May 2011, 02:10

It is really crazy to me that people who have been subjected to sexual abuse would so readily throw it around on the internet to give cred to their forum arguments. I think this entire style of "debate" is really in horrible taste.

Guess what...I do not give a toss what you think is in good taste or not...

And as you very well know...the practice of deviding the world in easy categories and basing role and position based on such ideas as sex, skin colour or whatever on users bascially is very prevalent here....and basically any debate is walled by the simple argument: "you are a man; you are white; you are hetrosexual...therefore you have no right to speak and you are benefitting from the system because yo do not know what you are talking about". Guess what..the world does not work that way. And guess what else...I am fucking tired of being dismissed by both fucking sides.

I tried to be subtile about it...I get attacked on something which the other person knows jack shit about and thinks he or she can lecture, attack and berate me on this very same issue. Guess what...that doesn't work for me.

So there you are; deal with your fucking discomfort about it....or perhaps step in when the matter is being raised.

Quail

5th May 2011, 02:50

I'm also kinda confused as to how saying "that exam raped me" is different from "that exam murdered me". (not that I use the word rape in that way, I don't)
There aren't the same cultural connotations with murder that there are for rape. A couple of examples:
Murder victims don't get blamed for being murdered. It isn't a common viewpoint that murder victims should have dressed differently, watched their drink more vigilantly, or stayed sober. When a woman gets raped by a man, she gets blamed for it far too often.
Also, murder is never seen as socially acceptable, whereas for some "macho" men, coercing a woman into having sex (whether by physical or emotional/psychological means) is seen as a fairly acceptable practice. Some men can be very bad with consent. I'm speaking from experience.

Now, that's not to say that women being raped by men is the only scenario, but I think that it's the scenario which is far more prone to victim-blaming and to a degree, is more socially acceptable. Men being raped by women is often dismissed, which is actually just another negative effect of patriarchy.

Either way, yes, murder can be devastating, as can rape, but rape tends to imply coercion and an imbalance of power. Often the domination of a man over a woman (but of course not always). It's important to challenge the attitudes that make some men think that they don't necessarily need a good level of consent, and that includes challenging the use of "rape" where it isn't appropriate.

unfriendly

5th May 2011, 03:02

...well. Okay.

I am very fucking sorry and I stand corrected. I was definitely out of place to assume that just because you're a cisman you have no connection or emotional reaction to rape. I'm sorry.

...ask yourself why they experience these labels consciously as such.

Because they have the privilege to experience them as labels instead of naked aggression. Pointing out that you are a cisman is not naked aggression (although the reason I did it and the implications I drew therefrom were and I'm seriously sorry). Pointing out that I'm trans usually is.

But I'll tell you what...none of that is happening on a radical leftwing forum...now is it. So instead you chose to attack me because of your own biggotted notions and false assumptions...and had the fucking guts to label me and tell me how my life, which you know nothing about, is like.

Oh, fucked up shit happens here. In this very thread I've definitely felt like I was under attack for my developmental disabilities and for other stuff.

It is pervasive. For instance the reason I'm letting you use female pronouns on me is because I'm fucking sick of explaining what's really going on with my gender.

gorillafuck

5th May 2011, 03:21

Murder victims don't get blamed for being murdered. It isn't a common viewpoint that murder victims should have dressed differently, watched their drink more vigilantly, or stayed sober. When a woman gets raped by a man, she gets blamed for it far too often.Murder victims shouldn't have been out that late, and they probably should have avoided that neighborhood. There are a lot of gangs in there, I really don't know what they expect.

Seriously, why the fuck would you be out at night in South Central or Trenton?

Nutcases.

Also, murder is never seen as socially acceptable, whereas for some "macho" men, coercing a woman into having sex (whether by physical or emotional/psychological means) is seen as a fairly acceptable practice. Some men can be very bad with consent. I'm speaking from experience.Murder is never seen as socially acceptable?

Protagonists in movies/TV murder or kill a fair amount. I have never seen one movie/TV show in my life where a rapist was a protagonist. Rapists are always villians in media. The same can't be said of murderers.

Either way, yes, murder can be devastating, as can rape, but rape tends to imply coercion and an imbalance of power.And murder somehow doesn't?

Murder is the most extreme form of coercion.

#FF0000

5th May 2011, 03:31

gorillafuck

5th May 2011, 03:35

The difference is that kind of argument won't hold in court.

Meanwhile for rape, who knows!Cops in South Central Los Angeles aren't exactly notorious for the careful care they take of their community in regards to humanely dealing with violent crime.

There's also the fact that murder victims can pretty much only be victimized once. Because of the prevalence of "rape myths", victims of rapes get to be victimized over and over and over again.Yeah because you're dead after you're murdered.

Quail

5th May 2011, 03:39

Murder victims shouldn't have been out that late, and they probably should have avoided that neighborhood. There are a lot of gangs in there, I really don't know what they expect.

Seriously, why the fuck would you be out at night in South Central or Trenton?

Nutcases.

I am of course talking about the mainstream media. It's very common for newspaper reports to suggest that women who have been raped were somehow responsible, but people who have been murdered don't tend to get blamed.

Murder is never seen as socially acceptable?

Protagonists in movies/TV murder or kill a fair amount. I have never seen one movie/TV show in my life where a rapist was a protagonist. Rapists are always villians in media. The same can't be said of murderers.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single film/tv show that showed senseless, pointless murder in a positive light. Murder is not seen as socially acceptable among groups of peers. Nobody would brag about murdering someone, but people do brag about having raped someone (I recently spoke to a survivor who had dealt with this).

And murder somehow doesn't?

Murder is the most extreme form of coercion.
Rape and murder are both not consensual, but rape involves a power dynamic where someone is forced to carry out a sexual act, as opposed to murder, where the victim isn't really coerced into doing anything. In a sexual assault, the survivor is forced to do something that they didn't consent to, whereas someone who is murdered is just killed (as opposed to being forced to kill themselves). There isn't the same kind of coercion in a murder.

#FF0000

5th May 2011, 03:45

Cops in South Central Los Angeles aren't exactly notorious for the careful care they take of their community in regards to humanely dealing with violent crime.

I don't understand what you mean.

Yeah because you're dead after you're murdered.

Right.

RedSunRising

5th May 2011, 03:47

I am of course talking about the mainstream media. It's very common for newspaper reports to suggest that women who have been raped were somehow responsible, but people who have been murdered don't tend to get blamed.

I know this will be disputed but its a cold fact that most women and girls who suffer rape dont report, a lot keep it to themselves or their very close friends, and what does that say about our culture? There is simply not the shame attached to suffering a murder attempt as suffering a rape...And yes murder is more serious obviously than rape, but both should have the death penalty.

synthesis

5th May 2011, 03:48

Nobody would brag about murdering someone

Clearly you're hanging out with the wrong group of people.

gorillafuck

5th May 2011, 03:49

I am of course talking about the mainstream media. It's very common for newspaper reports to suggest that women who have been raped were somehow responsible, but people who have been murdered don't tend to get blamed.I'm also talking about mainstream media.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single film/tv show that showed senseless, pointless murder in a positive light. Murder is not seen as socially acceptable among groups of peers. Nobody would brag about murdering someone, but people do brag about having raped someone (I recently spoke to a survivor who had dealt with this).Wait, what?

You haven't ever heard of people bragging about murdering people? That genuinely surprises me. Teardrop tattoos are for the sole purpose of that, and people without those also brag about it.

Also, violent criminals a lot of the time are in peer groups together. They find it acceptable to murder people.

Rape and murder are both not consensual, but rape involves a power dynamic where someone is forced to carry out a sexual act, as opposed to murder, where the victim isn't really coerced into doing anything.Someone killing someone else doesn't involve a power dynamic? So if I stand you against a wall and point a gun at someone, there's no power dynamic?

And how can you justify saying that murder victims aren't "really coerced into doing anything"? They don't want to die.

In a sexual assault, the survivor is forced to do something that they didn't consent to, whereas someone who is murdered is just killed (as opposed to being forced to kill themselves). There isn't the same kind of coercion in a murder.Murder victims rarely consent to having their lives taken.

PhoenixAsh

5th May 2011, 03:50

...well. Okay. I am very fucking sorry and I stand corrected. I was definitely out of place to assume that just because you're a cisman you have no connection or emotional reaction to rape. I'm sorry.

It's ok. I over reacted.

Because they have the privilege to experience them as labels instead of naked aggression. Pointing out that you are a cisman is not naked aggression

That is true. Its not naked agression.

I experienced gender issues in other ways as well...agression is one, exclusion is another. For me...labels holds a more negative connotation. I really do not like them...though I guess sometimes they are unavoidable.

(although the reason I did it and the implications I drew therefrom were and I'm seriously sorry).

I think the better course of action is to try to always judge a person based on the person...not on the characteristics of that person. Though...I also think the way human congnitive function works is that we always extract information from prior knowledge based on the very same labels we tend to want to overcome.

Pointing out that I'm trans usually is.

I can understand that and to some extend I can even relate. But obviously I can not truely comprehend how this must be for you.

Oh, fucked up shit happens here. In this very thread I've definitely felt like I was under attack for my developmental disabilities and for other stuff. It is pervasive. For instance the reason I'm letting you use female pronouns on me is because I'm fucking sick of explaining what's really going on with my gender.

I think I did not use female pronouns on you. But then again...English is not my first language. But I can understand it is a tough situation.

#FF0000

5th May 2011, 03:54

You haven't ever heard of people bragging about murdering people? That genuinely surprises me. Teardrop tattoos are for the sole purpose of that, and people without those also brag about it.

Also, violent criminals (like gang members) a lot of the time are in peer groups together. They find it acceptable to murder people.

that's different because those are sub-cultures where criminality in general is bragged about. Bragging about killing a person would not go over well in almost any situation. Meanwhile go to any bar in a college town and there's an even chance you'll hear someone bragging about taking advantage of someone who was drunk or passed out.

gorillafuck

5th May 2011, 03:55

Clearly you're hanging out with the wrong group of people.Imagine if this joke was about rape. He'd be banned. But it's about murder. He's not. Everyone see how that relates?

gorillafuck

5th May 2011, 03:58

that's different because those are sub-cultures where criminality in general is bragged about. Bragging about killing a person would not go over well in almost any situation. Meanwhile go to any bar in a college town and there's an even chance you'll hear someone bragging about taking advantage of someone who was drunk or passed out.For one having sex with a drunk person isn't raping them if they consent. Two, bragging about raping someone wouldn't go over well unless you're in certain subcultures either.

#FF0000

5th May 2011, 03:59

For one having sex with a drunk person isn't raping them if they consent.

Depends on how drunk. Either way it's a legal and ethical gray area.

Two, bragging about raping someone wouldn't go over well unless you're in certain subcultures either.

you clearly are not in college yet.

hoo boy.

PhoenixAsh

5th May 2011, 04:01

#FF0000

5th May 2011, 04:03

I think the difference we are trying to get at is that though both are voilent coercive crimes against a victims autonomy...

Rape actually is a crime which is lived over, and over, and over again. As opposed to murder rape does not stop at the act itself but is perpetuated into somebodies psyche until that person dies resulting in long lasting damage, psychological problems and diminishing the quality fo life over a prolonged period of time. This is even before we are talking about blame shifting and the (often) humiliating interrogations (which is not always necessary in the manner they are performed)

Murder, how awful and coercive as it is...and this may sound very, very cold...stops being a problem for the victim after the murder. (It does not however stop being a problem for next of kin and loved ones).

Eh, kind of what I'm getting at. I don't want to say one is worse than the other. A rape victim might have rather been killed and a murder victim might have rather endured anything to just spend another day on the earth. You can't say which is better or worse. They're just different with different circumstances, and the circumstances surrounding rape in our society makes it very, very, very difficult for the victim and far too easy on the rapist.

#FF0000

5th May 2011, 04:06

Not to mention Rape is a lot more common than Murder. At least in the US

PhoenixAsh

5th May 2011, 04:08

For one having sex with a drunk person isn't raping them if they consent.

hmmm...I think you are not necessarilly wrong there...but it does really depend on circumstances.

Two, bragging about raping someone wouldn't go over well unless you're in certain subcultures either.

I think you are not necessarily wrong here either... But then again....you do have to consider what is being seen as rape. For instance...teens in Holland in increasing numbers think there is no such thing as non-consensual sex within a relationship. Some people even think that when somebody sleeps or is passed out there can be no non-consent.

synthesis

5th May 2011, 04:11

Two, bragging about raping someone wouldn't go over well unless you're in certain subcultures either.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/258446.stm

In a related survey conducted among 1,500 schoolchildren in the Soweto township, a quarter of all the boys interviewed said that 'jackrolling' - a South African term for recreational gang rape - was fun.

synthesis

5th May 2011, 04:17

Imagine if this joke was about rape. He'd be banned. But it's about murder. He's not. Everyone see how that relates?

I think the difference here is that "murder" is fundamentally a legal term and an issue of legality. If the legal system decides that you had a good reason for it, it's a "justifiable homicide," or just business as usual for, say, the police.

I can't think of any instance for which this would apply to rape. Conversely, there are many instances of rape which are not considered as such by the legal system.

#FF0000

5th May 2011, 04:27

Regardless, I think Zeekloid's points could make for an argument for a larger culture of violence or something.

I think we can all agree at least that rape and the myths that help people get away with it are all far, far too common.

Commissar Rykov

5th May 2011, 04:48

For one having sex with a drunk person isn't raping them if they consent. Two, bragging about raping someone wouldn't go over well unless you're in certain subcultures either.

I have heard rape bragged about since High School.:(

Sword and Shield

5th May 2011, 05:25

For one having sex with a drunk person isn't raping them if they consent.

They cannot consent if they're drunk. That's the law in the U.S. at least (not that it's enforced). Deal with it.

5th May 2011, 05:32

They cannot consent if they're drunk. That's the law in the U.S. at least

[citation needed]

Property Is Robbery

5th May 2011, 05:43

Sword and Shield

5th May 2011, 05:52

[citation needed]

Here's the California law for example:

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/PEN/3/1/9/1/s261

(3)Where a person is prevented from resisting by any intoxicating or anesthetic substance, or any controlled substance, and this condition was known, or reasonably should have been known by the accused.

synthesis

5th May 2011, 06:02

I have heard rape bragged about since High School.:(

I'm curious - were they literally bragging about raping someone, or did they believe it wasn't rape but it was?

I do think there's a difference, however slight. I've never actually heard anyone bragging that they raped someone (except maybe Fleece Johnson or John Mongrel) or boasting of any aspect of a sexual encounter that would make them appear to be a rapist.

Johnny Kerosene

5th May 2011, 06:08

Here's the California law for example:

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/PEN/3/1/9/1/s261

That sounds more like it applies only in cases where they were too drunk to fight back, and doesn't necessarily indicate whether or not drunken consent is legal consent. Not that you're wrong, just that's what that specific law sounds like to me.

I know this will be disputed but its a cold fact that most women and girls who suffer rape dont report, a lot keep it to themselves or their very close friends, and what does that say about our culture? There is simply not the shame attached to suffering a murder attempt as suffering a rape...And yes murder is more serious obviously than rape, but both should have the death penalty.

You're absolutely right. I had a friend in my sophmore year of high school who was a senior. Her and her boyfriend were constantly breaking up and getting back together. At one point, she told me that she was considering framing him for rape. Then a few weeks later, or maybe it was months I don't remember, he actually did rape her, and she didn't want to report it, because "He's going to college and I don't want to mess that up for, and I was technically trespassing and etc." Everyone she told told her she should report it but she refused to. It was a pretty messed up situation.

Sword and Shield

5th May 2011, 06:08

And to all those who think having sex with someone who's drunk okay or there isn't a rape culture read the fucking comments in this article and then shut the fuck up: http://www.askmen.com/daily/blogs/politics/is-sex-with-a-drunk-woman-rape.html

Property Is Robbery

5th May 2011, 06:27

I have heard rape bragged about since High School.:(
Holy shit.. I consider myself a pacifist but I don't know how I would react if I heard someone brag about that.

Commissar Rykov

5th May 2011, 06:31

I'm curious - were they literally bragging about raping someone, or did they believe it wasn't rape but it was?

I do think there's a difference, however slight. I've never actually heard anyone bragging that they raped someone (except maybe Fleece Johnson or John Mongrel) or boasting of any aspect of a sexual encounter that would make them appear to be a rapist.

Bragging about actual rape since he thought it was hilarious that the girl was so drunk that he and his friends could do whatever they wanted with her.

Johnny Kerosene

5th May 2011, 06:46

Bragging about actual rape since he thought it was hilarious that the girl was so drunk that he and his friends could do whatever they wanted with her.

Please tell me you broke a bone or two upon hearing this.

Commissar Rykov

5th May 2011, 06:56

Please tell me you broke a bone or two upon hearing this.

I wish I could say it had the same conclusion as a run in with a Neo-Nazi in Middle School but sadly no. I was in such shock and completely disgusted I had no idea what to do. I listened in hopes of finding out who the girl was and seeing if she was ok but honestly I was so disturbed by the callous disregard for another human being that I had no clue how to react.

gorillafuck

5th May 2011, 11:54

And to all those who think having sex with someone who's drunk okayIf two drunk people have sex who's raping who?

or there isn't a rape culture read the fucking comments in this article and then shut the fuck up: http://www.askmen.com/daily/blogs/politics/is-sex-with-a-drunk-woman-rape.htmlThere is a rape culture. But if saying "I got raped by that quiz" encourages rape culture then saying I just murdered that exam encourages murder culture.

maybe the problem is that most of you don't live where murder happens so rape culture seems more real and close whereas murder culture doesn't. I dunno, it's a possibility. That's like how you're all mostly white so when wolfie says outrageously racist stuff it's less bothersome than if he said homophobic or sexist stuff to most of you. the closeness matters when people prioritize stuff.

you clearly are not in college yet.

hoo boy.Fratboys are a subculture. And yeah there are more people accepting of rape, that's obvious (and it's not okay). But that makes sense in an overall violent culture because rape is not viewed as being as serious as murder. Which it isn't.

Murder, how awful and coercive as it is...and this may sound very, very cold...stops being a problem for the victim after the murder.this is the most ridiculous argument. "yeah but after murder you lost your only life so rape is worse"

I think the difference here is that "murder" is fundamentally a legal term and an issue of legality.when people hear murder they know it means killing someone unjustly. I don't see what you're getting at.

bailey_187

5th May 2011, 13:24

I wish I could say it had the same conclusion as a run in with a Neo-Nazi in Middle School but sadly no. I was in such shock and completely disgusted I had no idea what to do. I listened in hopes of finding out who the girl was and seeing if she was ok but honestly I was so disturbed by the callous disregard for another human being that I had no clue how to react.

Seeing as we are giving examples in high school...

i remember in high school some kid was accused of rape (the girl later said she had never accused him, and her friends were making up that she said anything, but thats besides the point). Kids who wouldnt be adverse to rape jokes etc were quick to go and beat him up, lots of kids in the years above us wanted to get him etc

I dont think the majority of people find rape actually acceptable, in the same way most people dont find murder acceptable. But despite this people will still use "rape jokes" or talk about "bodying someone"

Also, murder victims are blamed, ofc posthumously. How often when a kid in london is stabbed to death, is it brushed of as being simply gang violence involving just guilty parties.

I guess i agree though, that the effects on a rape victim are forever lasting, but not a someone who got killed. But what about on friends of the murder victim who saw them die.

Or what about people who been stabbed but survive, but have to deal with a culture (albeit a subculture, but then i guess so is the frat boy culture keep being refered to) that glorifies stabbing people and gang violence. (this is a genuine question i hope answered) Is having a peice of metal stuck in ur torso 10 times by a group of kids shouting to kill him, less psychologicaly damaging than rape?

These are just my thoughts, im not trying to argue to prove anything, but i just dont understand, so if people could reply with genuine answers please

PhoenixAsh

5th May 2011, 14:20

this is the most ridiculous argument. "yeah but after murder you lost your only life so rape is worse"

Its not a comparison which is worse than the other. I think you need to let that notion go for a second....because I am not doing that.

For a rape victim the effects of the act do not end at the act itself. The suffering from its effects continue. So any form of victim blaming has an effect on the victim and so can the casual use of words associated with rape.

This is not the case with murder. For the victim the murder is the end of the suffering. Victim blaming does not affect the victim. And so does the word murder not affect the victim.

Again...this is not a comparison to which is worse. Its a simple matter of fact that a rape victim continues to live in society....in which the attitudes towards rape and the attitudes towards the victim of the crime have a very real effect on that victim.

This explains the difference in the effect of the words.

****

Now. As I stated earlier and elsewhere...I do not think the term rape culture is accurate enough to describe society. So at that point I agree with your arguments. We live in a culture which normalises violence. Rape is a part of that violence and rape culture is a part of a larger culture of violence.

I also do not think this is an accurate portrayal of reality to the extend that this is a universal truth. Rape is very much unacceptable in most western countries....but what constitutes rape however is an entirely different matter. One which is very much culturally influenced and even influenced by subgroups within a given culture.

The terminology is the problem.

Since the term rape culture makes appear that men (as a group) defend their privileged position against women by using and promoting rape as tactic instead of the rape being a consequence of the gender role enforcement against all non-patriarchy enforced gender roles and a logical outcome (as in: if a than b is the next step...I am not defending here) of the dominance of certain gender roles over others, it is in my opinion a to narrow defined terminology to accurately describe what is happening in society.

Summerspeaker

5th May 2011, 15:18

Rape has an association with a specific group of people - women, the sex class - that murder lacks. At least in popular culture, anyone can get murdered. With that said, there's good reason to look critically at using the language of violence and domination in everyday speech. How we conceive of these things matters.

Sword and Shield

5th May 2011, 15:19

That sounds more like it applies only in cases where they were too drunk to fight back, and doesn't necessarily indicate whether or not drunken consent is legal consent. Not that you're wrong, just that's what that specific law sounds like to me.

Yeah the California law isn't so strong in that it requires that the drunk person be capable of resisting, not giving legal consent. AFAIK some states do explicitly require that. In any case, I would question the general ability of someone to resist, (where resist would simply be saying "no") while drunk.

unfriendly

5th May 2011, 17:37

independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/cheerleader-must-compensate-school-that-told-her-to-clap-rapist-2278522.html

A teenage girl who was dropped from her high school's cheerleading squad after refusing to chant the name of a basketball player who had sexually assaulted her must pay compensation of $45,000 (£27,300) after losing a legal challenge against the decision.

The United States Supreme Court on Monday declined to hear a review of the case brought by the woman, who is known only as HS. Lower courts had ruled that she was speaking for the school, rather than for herself, when serving on a cheerleading squad – meaning that she had no right to stay silent when coaches told her to applaud.

She was 16 when she said she had been raped at a house party attended by dozens of fellow students from Silsbee High School, in south-east Texas. One of her alleged assailants, a student athlete called Rakheem Bolton, was arrested, with two other young men.

In court, Bolton pleaded guilty to the misdemeanour assault of HS. He received two years of probation, community service, a fine and was required to take anger-management classes. The charge of rape was dropped, leaving him free to return to school and take up his place on the basketball team.

Four months later, in January 2009, HS travelled to one of Silsbee High School's basketball games in Huntsville. She joined in with the business of leading cheers throughout the match. But when Bolton was about to take a free throw, the girl decided to stand silently with her arms folded.

"I didn't want to have to say his name and I didn't want to cheer for him," she later told reporters. "I just didn't want to encourage anything he was doing."

Richard Bain, the school superintendent in the sport-obsessed small town, saw things differently. He told HS to leave the gymnasium. Outside, he told her she was required to cheer for Bolton. When the girl said she was unwilling to endorse a man who had sexually assaulted her, she was expelled from the cheerleading squad.

The subsequent legal challenge against Mr Bain's decision perhaps highlights the seriousness with which Texans take cheerleading and high school sports, which can attract crowds in the tens of thousands.

HS and her parents instructed lawyers to pursue a compensation claim against the principal and the School District in early 2009. Their lawsuit argued that HS's right to exercise free expression had been violated when she was instructed to applaud her attacker. But two separate courts ruled against her, deciding that a cheerleader freely agrees to act as a "mouthpiece" for a institution and therefore surrenders her constitutional right to free speech. In September last year, a federal appeals court upheld those decisions and announced that HS must also reimburse the school sistrict $45,000, for filing a "frivolous" lawsuit against it.

"As a cheerleader, HS served as a mouthpiece through which [the school district] could disseminate speech – namely, support for its athletic teams," the appeals court decision says. "This act constituted substantial interference with the work of the school because, as a cheerleader, HS was at the basketball game for the purpose of cheering, a position she undertook voluntarily."

The family's lawyer said the ruling meanst that students exercising their right of free speech can end up punished for refusing to follow "insensitive and unreasonable directions"

gorillafuck

5th May 2011, 20:10

Rape has an association with a specific group of people - women, the sex class - that murder lacks.Working class people are more likely to be murdered than rich people. But you don't see the working class as a group of people so it's an easy mistake for you to make.

(also if we're going to talk about sex and murder, men are more likely to be murdered than women in the west, not that that's wicked relevant but you claimed otherwise)

Sword and Shield

5th May 2011, 20:45

If two drunk people have sex who's raping who?

Both people committed rape. Two wrongs don't right a wrong or whatever the saying is...

There is a rape culture. But if saying "I got raped by that quiz" encourages rape culture then saying I just murdered that exam encourages murder culture.

I don't think saying that encourages rape culture. However, I think it is a symptom, more than a cause, of a culture that does not recognize how serious of a problem rape is.

maybe the problem is that most of you don't live where murder happens so rape culture seems more real and close whereas murder culture doesn't. I dunno, it's a possibility. That's like how you're all mostly white so when wolfie says outrageously racist stuff it's less bothersome than if he said homophobic or sexist stuff to most of you. the closeness matters when people prioritize stuff..

I don't live in an urban crime ridden area. But that's just the point. Whereas crimes like murder are rare in most areas, (well even in high crime rate places nowhere near as prevalent as rape, so a better comparison would be violent assault), it is not universally prevalent. Rape, on the other hand, at least in American society, is prevalent everywhere.

Additionally, I (as a non-white male) find that sexism is a much worse problem in society than racism and homophobia, because it is comparable (as far as apples and oranges go) in terms of the effects it has on an individual, but affects half the population, rather than small minorities.

Princess Luna

5th May 2011, 21:27

Both people committed rape. Two wrongs don't right a wrong or whatever the saying is...
Are you serious.........

Commissar Rykov

5th May 2011, 21:31

Are you serious.........

It does seem a bit odd to make that conclusion. I would chock up two drunks having sex as a mistake not rape.

Reznov

5th May 2011, 21:37

Keep. Supporting. Rape. Culture. Bro.

Reading that reminds me of some of the people on here saying that they should try to not buy anything from any stores because it supports Capitalism.

Honestly, these things won't change on such a meaningless scale (I have heard female friends use rape like the example of "getting raped by the other team" in sports as well.) And personally, just like racist jokes most of the time it is used as a joke.

L.A.P.

5th May 2011, 21:37

Your profile clearly states that you are male. I don't care if you're a gay male because you still aren't on the receiving end of rape culture. I don't care if you're a trans male because you are still saying sexist bullshit.

Holy shit you must be a troll, name one fucking thing I said that was sexist. So far, all you have on me is the fact that I'm a heterosexual "cis-male" and I replied to your post.

#FF0000

5th May 2011, 21:52

maybe the problem is that most of you don't live where murder happens so rape culture seems more real and close whereas murder culture doesn't. I dunno, it's a possibility. That's like how you're all mostly white so when wolfie says outrageously racist stuff it's less bothersome than if he said homophobic or sexist stuff to most of you. the closeness matters when people prioritize stuff.

Well, like I said, rape is more common.

Also, people generally do not blame the victim when it comes to murder, and this kind of victim-blaming, when it does happen, doesn't generally lead to the muderer getting off the hook.

Meanwhile they had to make it a law to stop people from bringing up a rape victim's sexual history in court.

Fratboys are a subculture. And yeah there are more people accepting of rape, that's obvious (and it's not okay). But that makes sense in an overall violent culture because rape is not viewed as being as serious as murder. Which it isn't.

It is not just fratboys.

this is the most ridiculous argument. "yeah but after murder you lost your only life so rape is worse"

No one is trying to say this. If anyone is, they are wrong. Murder and Rape are different.

gorillafuck

5th May 2011, 22:11

I don't live in an urban crime ridden area. But that's just the point. Whereas crimes like murder are rare in most areas, (well even in high crime rate places nowhere near as prevalent as rape, so a better comparison would be violent assault), it is not universally prevalent. Rape, on the other hand, at least in American society, is prevalent everywhere.So your argument is that it's insensitive to use the word rape like that because it's widespread whereas murder is not an insensitive word to use because rates are only high in disadvantaged areas.

I don't think saying that encourages rape culture. However, I think it is a symptom, more than a cause, of a culture that does not recognize how serious of a problem rape is.So murder isn't a serious enough of a problem to merit that it not be used flippantly, but rape is? Because you seem to be fine with using murder in a way it's not intended, so apparently that's not a big enough deal going by your argument.

No one is trying to say this. If anyone is, they are wrong. Murder and Rape are different.Read what I was responding to. That point was actually put forward.

Honestly, these things won't change on such a meaningless scale (I have heard female friends use rape like the example of "getting raped by the other team" in sports as well.) And personally, just like racist jokes most of the time it is used as a joke.A lot of revleft for some reason thinks that all women agree with them which is very obviously not true but that's not really relevant to the discussion I don't think.

bailey_187

5th May 2011, 22:38

Both people committed rape. Two wrongs don't right a wrong or whatever the saying is...

and this is how we know u dont live in the real world...

RedSunRising

5th May 2011, 22:53

Additionally, I (as a non-white male) find that sexism is a much worse problem in society than racism and homophobia, because it is comparable (as far as apples and oranges go) in terms of the effects it has on an individual, but affects half the population, rather than small minorities.

I think it can depend what sort of non-white you are, what is your socio-economic background is and where you live in. Also there are a parts of the planet where I would hate to be gay growing in but looking around me where I am its much worse to grow up female. Imperialism (which is at the root of racism), patriarchy and capitalism of course all tie into each other and support each other. The fact that the sexual humiliation of a woman or often just a girl of 18 or 19 as entertainment which I think in the future will be looked back on in horror (stuff like double peneration is NOT normal sex kiddies) is considered okay on a supposed left-wing forum really says something. Just because patriarchy has re-structured itself from its classical 1950s "Bible Belt" model doesnt mean that it is still not very much alive under "hip" and "liberated" clothing.

Sword and Shield

6th May 2011, 00:27

Are you serious.........

It does seem a bit odd to make that conclusion. I would chock up two drunks having sex as a mistake not rape.

Well it doesn't make any difference if neither party reports the other person. But think about it it this way. Suppose one of the person is too drunk to give legal consent, and does not actually wish to have sex (or is too intoxicated to decide that s/he doesn't want to have sex). Then the other person is committing rape. Being drunk is no excuse for this crime (same as committing any crime while being drunk).

Tim Finnegan

6th May 2011, 00:39

(stuff like double peneration is NOT normal sex kiddies)
If you'll forgive the slight step off-topic: neither, according to the traditional reckoning, are oral sex, anal sex, masturbation- solo, mutual, whatever- or homosexual sex of any variety. Objectively "normal" sexual behaviour is, if you'll forgive the cliché, a bourgeois fiction, and has no place among any circle of discussion thinking to proclaim itself "revolutionary".

Honestly, these things won't change on such a meaningless scale
Neither would me spitting or not spitting in your drink, but I still don't do it, because I'm not an insensitive asshole. If you see what I mean.

Working class people are more likely to be murdered than rich people. But you don't see the working class as a group of people so it's an easy mistake for you to make.

(also if we're going to talk about sex and murder, men are more likely to be murdered than women in the west, not that that's wicked relevant but you claimed otherwise)
That's not the point; even though men are more likely to murdered than women, murder is not gendered in the same sense that rape is, any more than it is "classed" by dint of being proportionally more likely to happen to working class people. Patriarchy ideologically enables rapists, but the same cannot be said of capitalism and murder in its general sense. (The murder of or committed by particular groups or entities being a very different a matter, of course.)

synthesis

6th May 2011, 01:36

when people hear murder they know it means killing someone unjustly. I don't see what you're getting at.

I guess the point I was trying to make (and didn't really succeed at) was that these kinds of discussions are very important yet also necessarily subjective and anecdotal. They often take the form of people saying things like "people get mad about Y, but no one cares about X" and, on the other hand, "people get mad about X, but no one cares about Y." Sometimes this results in very unproductive discussions.

RedSunRising

6th May 2011, 02:06

If you'll forgive the slight step off-topic: neither, according to the traditional reckoning, are oral sex, anal sex, masturbation- solo, mutual, whatever- or homosexual sex of any variety. Objectively "normal" sexual behaviour is, if you'll forgive the cliché, a bourgeois fiction, and has no place among any circle of discussion thinking to proclaim itself "revolutionary".

Maybe you cant imagine the pain involved in double penetration.

bailey_187

6th May 2011, 02:11

woah, wtf, why are people talking about double pentration? how common is that outside of porn :confused:

RedSunRising

6th May 2011, 02:13

woah, wtf, why are people talking about double pentration? how common is that outside of porn :confused:

The point is that is common in porn which feeds into the culture of rape.

Tim Finnegan

6th May 2011, 02:23

Maybe you cant imagine the pain involved in double penetration.
Why is that relevant, exactly? Why criticism was of your conscription of patriarchal ideological tools, i.e. a conception of "normal" sexual practice, in the services of what you claim to be women's liberation, not a remark on the enjoyment that may or may not be derived from double penetration.

The point is that is common in porn which feeds into the culture of rape.
That's not an actually an answer to his question, just a repetition of the point of confusion. In what sense do double penetrations, something which are relatively uncommon in even mainstream pornography- are they not notorious even in mainstream culture as being something of a "special attraction"?- feed into rapist-enabling culture?

bailey_187

6th May 2011, 02:31

The point is that is common in porn which feeds into the culture of rape.

1) its not common in porn (u could argue its "infamous", but not common)
2) how prevelent is it really in rape cases

Tim Finnegan

6th May 2011, 02:45

2) how prevelent is it really in rape cases
In RedSunRising's defence, it's not that certain sex acts will be imitated if they appear in porn, at least not as such, but that the ideology presented by pornography sustains a culture which enables rapists. This is not an invalid point in itself, but, rather, places too much weight on pornography, which is honestly far more peripheral a component of modern culture than anti-pornists are willing to admit, and that the particular form of it being pushed here (and elsewhere) places far too much emphasis even within those terms on certain sexual acts deemed essentially misogynistic- the bizarre fetishisation of non-vaginal sex features rather prominently in this narrative- rather than on the actual ideological content of pornography.

Summerspeaker

6th May 2011, 03:47

Working class people are more likely to be murdered than rich people.

Yes, but I don't see the threat of murder employed against workers as a class in the same way rape is against women as a class. Poor folks tend to murder other poor folks, while men tend to rape women. The danger of murder justifies the bourgeois police state; it's a somewhat different dynamic of oppression.

By strict Marxist class definitions, I'm not sure the proletariat as a whole has a dramatically higher murder rate than the bourgeoisie within certain countries. Japan comes to mind. However, globally the contrast could hardly be starker.

(also if we're going to talk about sex and murder, men are more likely to be murdered than women in the west, not that that's wicked relevant but you claimed otherwise)

You're imaging things. I'm familiar with that statistic.

PhoenixAsh

6th May 2011, 11:41

The point is that is common in porn which feeds into the culture of rape.

Proof this....because I call absolute bullshit on this statement.

******

Also dp is enjoyed by some women outside porn. So again, the fact YOU don't like it does not mean nobody does.

#FF0000

6th May 2011, 11:55

what has happened to this thread goddamn

Tim Finnegan

6th May 2011, 16:09

Proof this....because I call absolute bullshit on this statement.
"Bullshit", perhaps, but "absolute bullshit" may be a step too far. In its most general form, the statement is a pretty basic observation of the role of bourgeois mass media in sustaining the hegemonic ideology, in this case of misogynistic pornography sustaining patriarchal ideology, which, it cannot be denied, is rapist-enabling. The problem is that RSR places far too much weight on pornography as such an ideological tool, focuses far too heavily on sexual mechanics rather than ideological content, and that she assumes pornography as essentially misogynistic. This leads her from the sensible point of "misogynistic pornography sustains a rapist-enabling culture" to the rather more questionable point of "filming anal sex causes rape".

REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL

6th May 2011, 17:08

Tim Finnegan

6th May 2011, 17:13

Sword and Shield

6th May 2011, 17:17

You aren't this stupid. Even if rape culture was of greater prevalence than murder culture, that does not mean murder culture does not exist. Hence, you are still, according to your own logic, encouraging murder cuture by using the word murder in a non serious sense. Presumably you don't think its okay to encourage murder if there is only a small amount of it going on, or to a small extent?

It isn't a matter of just prevalence. It's a matter of the culture that causes that prevalence. In our society, masculinity and patriarchy play an integral part and this results in the accepting (or at least trivialization) of rape.

As for using the word "rape" in everyday conversation, there is a reason it's used so much more often than "murder". It's cause rape victims are stigmatized, and thus using the word in that context reinforces that stigmatization. If you also consider the emotional effect it'll have when used in front of rape victims, nothing condones the usage of the word "rape" for anything other than referring to the crime.

And also lol at the dude claiming having sex with a drunk girl is rape.

And to all those who think having sex with someone who's drunk okay or there isn't a rape culture read the fucking comments in this article and then shut the fuck up: http://www.askmen.com/daily/blogs/politics/is-sex-with-a-drunk-woman-rape.html

synthesis

6th May 2011, 21:35

But what is "murder culture", exactly? There's a great body of work on the concept of a "rape culture" or "rapist-enabling culture" (the latter term being preferable, in my opinion), but "murder culture" seems to be something that you just made up.

Think about the aspects of a "rapist-enabling culture" that enable rapists. Now think about what aspects of a culture might enable murderers.

I mean, what if musicians and record labels called themselves things like "Uncle Rape," "Rape Mook," or "Rape, Inc."? Nobody would buy that shit, except maybe GG Allin aficionados.

Commissar Rykov

6th May 2011, 21:45

Think about the aspects of a "rapist-enabling culture" that enable rapists. Now think about what aspects of a culture might enable murderers.

I mean, what if musicians and record labels called themselves things like "Uncle Rape," "Rape Mook," or "Rape, Inc."? Nobody would buy that shit, except maybe GG Allin aficionados.

There was a group called The Mentors with the lead singer called El Duce who promoted rape and even made comments about it not being a crime. Sure it was supposedly shockrock but they still went around spouting that shit.

Tim Finnegan

6th May 2011, 22:15

Think about the aspects of a "rapist-enabling culture" that enable rapists. Now think about what aspects of a culture might enable murderers.
I'm not sure if you know what "rapist-enabling culture" means. It refers to a culture in which the hegemonic ideological system erodes or even denies the legitimacy of women as autonomous beings, and, consequently, allows their sexual objectification to be taken to drastic ends, i.e. the forcing of non-consensual sex upon them. There is no equivalent ideological construction enabling physical violence in the general sense which you seem to suggest (although, of course, it may be enabling it against certain groups and on the part of certain groups, e.g. against people of colour by state security forces).

I mean, what if musicians and record labels called themselves things like "Uncle Rape," "Rape Mook," or "Rape, Inc."? Nobody would buy that shit, except maybe GG Allin aficionados.
Do you really think that petty bourgeois posturing constitutes a culture which enables murder? :confused:

synthesis

6th May 2011, 22:52

There is no equivalent ideological construction enabling physical violence in the general sense which you seem to suggest (although, of course, it may be enabling it against certain groups and on the part of certain groups, e.g. against people of colour by state security forces).

Yes, there is; it's called "the underclass" or "the ghetto."

Do you really think that petty bourgeois posturing constitutes a culture which enables murder? :confused:

Obviously we are working from entirely different bases of experience here.

Tim Finnegan

6th May 2011, 23:06

Yes, there is; it's called "the underclass" or "the ghetto."
I don't think you understand what I refer to "ideological construction". What about the "underclass" or "the ghetto" function as a general legitimisation of murderous behaviour?

Obviously we are working from entirely different bases of experience here.
Could you elaborate?

synthesis

6th May 2011, 23:23

I don't think you understand what I refer to "ideological construction". What about the "underclass" or "the ghetto" function as a general legitimisation of murderous behaviour?

They dictate that murder and violence is "business as usual" in certain areas and among certain communities, which encourage people to either participate in it or ignore it.

Could you elaborate?

I don't really want to, for several reasons; one is that I don't want to derail the thread and another is that this discussion would get personal out of necessity. Basically, if you dismiss the glorification of murder and violence as "petty-bourgeois posturing," it leads me to believe that we're probably not going to find a lot of common ground on the subject.

Tim Finnegan

6th May 2011, 23:26

They dictate that murder and violence is "business as usual" in certain areas and among certain communities, which encourage people to either participate in it or ignore it.
That's a rather more complex sort of construction than just a "murder culture". It certainly offers no close parallel to rape culture, as such a label would suggest.

I don't really want to, for several reasons; one is that I don't want to derail the thread and another is that this discussion would get personal out of necessity. Basically, if you dismiss the glorification of murder and violence as "petty-bourgeois posturing," it leads me to believe that we're probably not going to find a lot of common ground on the subject.
I didn't mean to suggest that such glorification does not warrant examination, simply that it cannot be hold to represent a hegemonic ideology.

synthesis

6th May 2011, 23:32

That's a rather more complex sort of construction than just a "murder culture". It certainly offers no close parallel to rape culture, as such a label would suggest.

Aren't you one of the people complaining (rightfully) that people are oversimplifying the concept of "rape culture"? I don't think it's a perfectly direct parallel, but I'd say it's reasonably close.

I didn't mean to suggest that such glorification does not warrant examination, simply that it cannot be hold to represent a hegemonic ideology.

Can you explain how "rape-enabling culture" is "hegemonic" while "murder-enabling culture," as I defined it in post 108, is not?

Tim Finnegan

7th May 2011, 00:24

Aren't you one of the people complaining (rightfully) that people are oversimplifying the concept of "rape culture"? I don't think it's a perfectly direct parallel, but I'd say it's reasonably close.
The construction of these forms of tolerance are very different, though. In the case of rape culture, the accepted bodily autonomy of women is eroded, enabling rapists by creating a culture in which their actions are not acknowledged as rape. There's no similar set of constructions in regards to physical violence on the part of members of the underclass against members of the underclass; at best, there's an unusual amount of individuals who set themselves apart from, but they establish themselves in contradiction to the hegemonic ideology, not in line with it.

Of course, that's not to say that there aren't similar constructions which legitimise violence- as I said, the support of state security institutions would be one- but they represent something more narrower applied than the cultural norms referred to by "rapeculture".

Can you explain how "rape-enabling culture" is "hegemonic" while "murder-enabling culture," as I defined it in post 108, is not?
Rapist-enabling culture is a facet of patriarchy, which is self-evidently hegemonic in our society, but there is no comparable ideology with which the "murder culture" you describe holds a similar relationship.

REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL

7th May 2011, 01:02

But what is "murder culture", exactly? There's a great body of work on the concept of a "rape culture" or "rapist-enabling culture" (the latter term being preferable, in my opinion), but "murder culture" seems to be something that you just made up.

You saying some people, or things, don't do things percived as gloryfying or encouraging murder? Mabye its less than the amount of frat boys who think its okay to sleep with passed out chicks. I don't know, but the idea that there aren't groups of people who think murder for totally stupid ass reasons is ok is surely proved wrong by opening the paper?

Tim Finnegan

7th May 2011, 01:06

You saying some people, or things, don't do things percived as gloryfying or encouraging murder? Mabye its less than the amount of frat boys who think its okay to sleep with passed out chicks. I don't know, but the idea that there aren't groups of people who think murder for totally stupid ass reasons is ok is surely proved wrong by opening the paper?
I'm saying that the hegemonic ideology of the present does not actively contest an individuals entitlement to freedom from physical violence, as it does with a woman's right to bodily autonomy. (Of course, it very frequently contests that entitlement on the part of certain individuals, but not in the same generalised manner.)

REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL

7th May 2011, 12:54

I'm saying that the hegemonic ideology of the present does not actively contest an individuals entitlement to freedom from physical violence, as it does with a woman's right to bodily autonomy. (Of course, it very frequently contests that entitlement on the part of certain individuals, but not in the same generalised manner.)

I don't know what to say? It just seems to me that an individuals freedom from physical violence is readily contested to me, by "civilized" society if you hold an unpopular opinion, or if you are a child, or some form of deviant, or if you stand against various national interests. Among that would be viewed as less civilized, gangs and shit I guess, I think that right is also contested. I understand there seems to be a more significant push against women's rights as a general case, but I think these examples are also true.

eyedrop

7th May 2011, 15:45

But what is "murder culture", exactly? There's a great body of work on the concept of a "rape culture" or "rapist-enabling culture" (the latter term being preferable, in my opinion), but "murder culture" seems to be something that you just made up.
Well can you agree that over in the spank your children thread there is a definite violence enabling culture, which to me seems to be way stronger than a rape enabling culture.

Crux

7th May 2011, 20:05

Why was a discussion of murder culture brought into this thread in the first place? To derail and to state "well, at least it's not murder". I mean, c'mon.

28350

7th May 2011, 20:11

(stuff like double peneration is NOT normal sex kiddies)

How dare I or a partner have more than one penis inside us at a time. What sexual degeneracy. In socialism, we will have to ration penises / functioning phallic objects.

Maybe you cant imagine the pain involved in double penetration.

Maybe your experience or whatever sort of anecdotal evidence you rely on isn't true for everyone.

Tim Finnegan

7th May 2011, 23:53

I don't know what to say? It just seems to me that an individuals freedom from physical violence is readily contested to me, by "civilized" society if you hold an unpopular opinion, or if you are a child, or some form of deviant, or if you stand against various national interests. Among that would be viewed as less civilized, gangs and shit I guess, I think that right is also contested. I understand there seems to be a more significant push against women's rights as a general case, but I think these examples are also true.
That's a fair point, and I was probably being too narrow in my definition of "violence-enabling". I guess what I'm really trying to argue is that the original "murder culture" proposed in this thread does not exist as something analogous to "rape culture", and so while it's certainly possible to discuss the ways in which violence is enable by ideology, trying to construct clumsy parallels to justify problematic language- which was the originally purpose of the "murder culture" hypothesis- really isn't on.

Well can you agree that over in the spank your children thread there is a definite violence enabling culture, which to me seems to be way stronger than a rape enabling culture.
Well, as I said above, I was probably wrong in suggesting that there is no "violence-enabling culture" as such, and this is arguably such an example.

REVLEFT'S BIEGGST MATSER TROL

9th May 2011, 09:14

That's a fair point, and I was probably being too narrow in my definition of "violence-enabling". I guess what I'm really trying to argue is that the original "murder culture" proposed in this thread does not exist as something analogous to "rape culture", and so while it's certainly possible to discuss the ways in which violence is enable by ideology, trying to construct clumsy parallels to justify problematic language- which was the originally purpose of the "murder culture" hypothesis- really isn't on.

Well, as I said above, I was probably wrong in suggesting that there is no "violence-enabling culture" as such, and this is arguably such an example.

Well I don't think anyone was suggesting they were totally analagous, I think it was taken as a given they don't have to be. Consider that the argument made against using the word "raped" to describe something was that it encouraged a trivilisation of rape, I don't think the "murder culture" or whatever it is, has to be exactly the same or analogus, just that it has to exist. I can't see how it can make sense otherwise as I don't see anything in particular about rape culture that makes the use of certain words encouraging of it, but not any other "culture" just because it happens to be smaller, or negliable in some places (if culture is the right word to describe whatever murder acceptance movements there are.)