Who shall lead the revulution?

[apathy maybe]

In previous revolutions, there have been a class or group of people who, being feed up with the way things were being run, overthrew the government and established a new one. For instance during the French revolution it was the middle class. During the Russian revolution, it was the peasants (sometimes soldiers & industrial workers). In each case, there has been a large percentage of society who didn't like what was happening, and in some cases didn't even have a set leader (Like the February Revolution).

In this industrial and post-industrial society (Western), who are the new oppressed class? If we look on a world wide scale, we see quite easily that many of the Sub-Saharan Africans are the worst of people in the world. Followed closely by large numbers of people in China, India and Pakistan etc. But are they going to revolt and over throw their oppressive leaders? And if they do, is there suddenly going to be revolt in the west?

So all you people who talk of revolution, who is it going to be? The middle-class again? Or is the revolution going to be enforced by the new world powers of socialist India and Africa?

[redstar2000]

IF Marx was right, then the next great wave of revolutions will come from the working class in the advanced capitalist countries.

If he was wrong, then your guess is as good as anyone's. There may never be any revolutions again. Who can say?

I will venture this: as far as I know, there's no apparent positive correlation between absolute oppression and revolutionary activity.

It seems to be a subjective matter; do people "feel" "oppressed" to an outrageous extent?

No one knows, at this point, how that feeling arises, what the exact mechanism is. We only know afterwards...when the revolution has already happened.

It's amusing to read western writings about Russia 1900-1916...the comments about how the peasants "loved their Czar" and would "never" rebel inspite of the most degrading oppression and exploitation.

It all depends, I guess.

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[sc4r]

Which translated means that the pied piper thinks there should be a revolution if there is one; led by whoever leads it.

And this guy is claiming to be passionately Socialist!!

He is not, he is completely passive and intellectual (not in the sense that he is bright BTW). He is pasionately in favour of Marx and himself being right. he wants to be proved right, He does not want to create a better society given whatever the actual circumstances actually are; he wants to ignore actual circumstances if they inconveniently are not as he would wish them to be.

[redstar2000]

Yes, I am a no-good evil bastard and no one should ever listen to anything I say.

Once you start agreeing with me, the road to Hell lies open.

Next thing you know, you'll be reading Marx!

Save yourselves while you can! Do not read my posts!

You have been warned.

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"A site about egocentricity and contradictory confusion"--sc4r
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A site about communist ideas

[RyeN]

Well if all you 2 are going to do is bicker I guesse Ill fucking lead the reblion. Everybody met at my house this saturday and well reall fuck some shit up ok.

[Legends]

I gotta go with marx and say that the next wave will come from working class or people who have nothing to lose. But then again ANYONE can start a revolution when you think about it.

[FistFullOfSteel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2003, 08:53 AM
Well if all you 2 are going to do is bicker I guesse Ill fucking lead the reblion. Everybody met at my house this saturday and well reall fuck some shit up ok.
count me in.wheres ur house?

[Hate Is Art]

revolutions are called revolutions because they come around, patience is the key, i can see their being a revolution in iraq against american rule.

[YKTMX]

Latin American in my opinion. Maybe even Brazil!

[ElRuso1967]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2003, 06:16 PM
Latin American in my opinion. Maybe even Brazil!
I think that the revolution will start in South America as well. But then again parts of africa and asia are also likely candidates to spark off an international revolution. what does everyone else think?

[apathy maybe]

My own humble opinion, is that most revolutions don't work in the long run. Which is why I advocate parlimentry reform (at least in countries with a parliament). In some cases revolutions are needed for what ever reason. But generally in the poorer parts of the world with out a parliament that runs like a western one (as in 'anyone' can get in, not like the USSR).

[RyeN]

Big Revolution kicker party at my house this Saturday. I got Solution booked to play in my garage and guns and ammo for the little ones.

[Blackberry]

Originally posted by ElRuso1967+Sep 30 2003, 05:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ElRuso1967 @ Sep 30 2003, 05:21 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2003, 06:16 PM
Latin American in my opinion. Maybe even Brazil&#33;
I think that the revolution will start in South America as well. But then again parts of africa and asia are also likely candidates to spark off an international revolution. what does everyone else think? [/b]
Europe is the traditional place for revolutions. It&#39;s mostly been the forefront of progress into newer ideologies, for the better or worse.


Ryen

Well if all you 2 are going to do is bicker I guesse Ill fucking lead the reblion.


One, you mean. I didn&#39;t see RedStar2000 attack an individual. He did give a reply to an attack on himself, though.

[RyeN]

Duly noted. However I have seen it else where.

Join the revolution

[ElRuso1967]

It probably wont be one person leading the revolution, it will probably be a group of people.

[crazy comie]

The Prolitareate

[ElRuso1967]

No, i meant the vanguard of the rebel group

[xy_controlx]

shit the revolution will come from the underground protesters right here in the good old(fucked up) USA......there is the fire, all we need is the fuel.....

[Hate Is Art]

don&#39;t you mean their is fuel we just need some fire. I think anyone who trys to start a revolution in america is going to be shipped off to gauntamo (sp?) bay pretty quick, that or have a sponge put on their head sitting in a metal chair.

[EZLN88]

I agree that the revolution will start in the underground of the USA. But more importantly, this revolution will be lead by the youth of America. Everyday, younger people are learning more and more about the realities in which they are living. Everyday they&#39;re learning more about the system they&#39;re forced to live under. And everyday they&#39;re learning more about alternatives to that system. It&#39;s like Chairman Mao once said, "A single spark can start a grassfire." I think there are millions of people in America that are simply waiting for someone to create the spark.

[Invader Zim]

I daubt there will be a revolution in the consivable future. However in 50 + years time who knows? If you are looking for a Marxist revolution then to be honist the people who lead the revolution must be educated in Marxist theorys. To do this a person would have to be educated, so logically it would seem that the leader of the revolution would have to be a member of the middle class. Especially in poorer countries where education of the masses is rare. However that does not mean that the leader may not be a mamber of the WC, I just find it more likley to be a middle class person.

[ElRuso1967]

Originally posted by [email protected] 30 2003, 05:47 PM
I daubt there will be a revolution in the consivable future. However in 50 + years time who knows?
I disagree with you there. we could make the revolution happen NOW if we really wanted to. we just need to unite together as a whole and we can make it happen&#33;

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by ElRuso1967+Sep 30 2003, 07:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ElRuso1967 @ Sep 30 2003, 07:52 PM)
[email protected] 30 2003, 05:47 PM
I daubt there will be a revolution in the consivable future. However in 50 + years time who knows?
I disagree with you there. we could make the revolution happen NOW if we really wanted to. we just need to unite together as a whole and we can make it happen&#33; [/b]
I cant see that happening in the consievable future either. :(

[sc4r]

Originally posted by ElRuso1967+Sep 30 2003, 06:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ElRuso1967 @ Sep 30 2003, 06:52 PM)
[email protected] 30 2003, 05:47 PM
I daubt there will be a revolution in the consivable future. However in 50 + years time who knows?
I disagree with you there. we could make the revolution happen NOW if we really wanted to. we just need to unite together as a whole and we can make it happen&#33; [/b]
You could lose a revolution right now if thats what you mean.

I reckon perhaps 1% or less of the population of the UK would even support it. In America that might be 0.1%.

I admire your spirit perhaps, but not your realism.

First build tacit support then you can talk about what you do with it. Grandiose proclamations achieve nothing but to make us look ridiculous.

Sorry.

[crazy comie]

Wait till oil prices go sky high.

[Red Flag]

wait????? they already in the fucking sky

[apathy maybe]

So if there is no large class of people, why the fuck do people keep arguing for revolution. Esp when they also say that parliamentary reform doesn&#39;t work.

redstar2000 you for instance say you don&#39;t know when the revolution will happen but have in the past said that parliamentary reform is worse the useless (unless I misunderstood what you said).

Parliamentary reform is one way towards a better society. So don&#39;t just say the idea is fucked.

If you don&#39;t want change to happen, what the hell are you doing as a socialist/commuist/anarchist.

[redstar2000]

redstar2000 you for instance say you don&#39;t know when the revolution will happen but have in the past said that parliamentary reform is worse the useless (unless I misunderstood what you said).

Parliamentary reform is one way towards a better society. So don&#39;t just say the idea is fucked.

Yes, I think it has been shown to be "worse than useless". It is "fucked".

You sound rather upset with me for saying that...but why should I pretend otherwise? If you had a computer problem, would you like it if I gave you a bunch of instructions that not only did not solve the problem but actually made it worse?

Personally, my estimate is that proletarian revolution is at least several decades in the future but certainly quite possible in this century.

If I am right about that, then "what is to be done"? Obviously, the first need is to build up an intransigent and uncompromising opposition to the totality of the capitalist system.

What we need to do is not just participate in movements opposed to globalization or the next imperialist war...but use those opportunities to advocate total opposition to capitalism, to show people why proletarian revolution is "the right thing to do".

If what we say to people "makes sense" over the coming decades, then our numbers will grow and our ideas will become a "public presence".

The greatest danger and one which many movements have self-destructed over is the idea that what we want can come "in steps" or "stages"...that we can get a little now and a little more later and a little more after that, and someday we&#39;ll get it all.

What actually happens to such groups is that, if they&#39;re lucky, they get a little now...and a little later they lose it. All of the "great reforms" are being dismantled in the advanced capitalist countries...the capitalist class has no choice but to do this in their unending struggle to avoid the tendency of the rate of profit to fall.

If you look at recent labor struggles, what must strike any objective observer is their defensive character...the workers are not pressing forward with new demands but just trying rather ineffectively to hold on to the gains made by their parents and grandparents.

Thus it is self-defeating for leftists to concern themselves with parliamentary reforms for two basic reasons: 1. It is probably no longer even possible to secure significant reforms in advanced capitalist societies; and 2. Such a focus simply reinforces a "defensive" attitude on the part of the working class.

The attitude we want to encourage is total hatred for the ruling class and everything it does.

Bourgeois parliamentary maneuvers are just a distraction from our real job...proletarian revolution.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[X JoeyNormal X]

The yuppies. Annoyed by the second great dot com collapse...

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2003, 10:21 AM

redstar2000 you for instance say you don&#39;t know when the revolution will happen but have in the past said that parliamentary reform is worse the useless (unless I misunderstood what you said).

Parliamentary reform is one way towards a better society. So don&#39;t just say the idea is fucked.

Yes, I think it has been shown to be "worse than useless". It is "fucked".

You sound rather upset with me for saying that...but why should I pretend otherwise? If you had a computer problem, would you like it if I gave you a bunch of instructions that not only did not solve the problem but actually made it worse?

Personally, my estimate is that proletarian revolution is at least several decades in the future but certainly quite possible in this century.

If I am right about that, then "what is to be done"? Obviously, the first need is to build up an intransigent and uncompromising opposition to the totality of the capitalist system.

What we need to do is not just participate in movements opposed to globalization or the next imperialist war...but use those opportunities to advocate total opposition to capitalism, to show people why proletarian revolution is "the right thing to do".

If what we say to people "makes sense" over the coming decades, then our numbers will grow and our ideas will become a "public presence".

The greatest danger and one which many movements have self-destructed over is the idea that what we want can come "in steps" or "stages"...that we can get a little now and a little more later and a little more after that, and someday we&#39;ll get it all.

What actually happens to such groups is that, if they&#39;re lucky, they get a little now...and a little later they lose it. All of the "great reforms" are being dismantled in the advanced capitalist countries...the capitalist class has no choice but to do this in their unending struggle to avoid the tendency of the rate of profit to fall.

If you look at recent labor struggles, what must strike any objective observer is their defensive character...the workers are not pressing forward with new demands but just trying rather ineffectively to hold on to the gains made by their parents and grandparents.

Thus it is self-defeating for leftists to concern themselves with parliamentary reforms for two basic reasons: 1. It is probably no longer even possible to secure significant reforms in advanced capitalist societies; and 2. Such a focus simply reinforces a "defensive" attitude on the part of the working class.

The attitude we want to encourage is total hatred for the ruling class and everything it does.

Bourgeois parliamentary maneuvers are just a distraction from our real job...proletarian revolution.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

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A site about communist ideas
You say that Parlimentary Reform is impossible in most advanced capitalist nations....well then Revolution must be also.

Redstar think about it, does anyone really have it that bad in America? Or Canada?

I mean compare teh poor people in America to those in South Africa.....America&#39;s poor people have food and air conditioning and TV&#39;s.

THe majority of america is Middle class, and they are leading pretty good lives. Now unless you can

1. Garuantee that America will face the biggest Economic Plummet since the Great Depression

or

2. Garuantee that another Advanced Capitalist Nation will see a huge economic plummet, larger or equal to the Great Depression

or

3. Find a country that isn&#39;t an advanced capitalist nation, where the majority is poor and pissed off


You will not see a revolution in this century or the next.

Revolutions happen when the people are fed up...the people in Advanced Capitalist nations aren&#39;t fed up, in fact they don&#39;t even care.

To win now we need to play the political game, or we wait for Nature to run it&#39;s course and the US to eventually take a turn for the worse at which point we kick it while it&#39;s down

[sc4r]

Originally posted by apathy [email protected] 3 2003, 02:08 AM
So if there is no large class of people, why the fuck do people keep arguing for revolution. Esp when they also say that parliamentary reform doesn&#39;t work.

redstar2000 you for instance say you don&#39;t know when the revolution will happen but have in the past said that parliamentary reform is worse the useless (unless I misunderstood what you said).

Parliamentary reform is one way towards a better society. So don&#39;t just say the idea is fucked.

If you don&#39;t want change to happen, what the hell are you doing as a socialist/commuist/anarchist.
I could not agree more. Beautifully and very succinctly expressed.

And there is an additional problem. If we wait till it is down we wont be the only ones trying to kick it and grab peoples attention/ promise them something better. The Fascists (who are very very good at recruiting disadvantaged people, and persuading them that it is all someone else&#39;s fault, and that these people should be oppressed, and that everything will be wonderful if this is done) will be involved in that scramble too. I would not like to rely upon people reacting rationally, when they are hurting, for our success. Do you react rationally in such circumstances?

If we have a genuine message we can sell it today. If we all we can communicate is that when things get really bad we will make them slightly better we may as well jack it in now.

To me Redstar gives away his whole position in one phrase when he says &#39;we must encourage hatred for the ruling class&#39;.

1. Encouraging hatred is not really a fantastic attitude to instill in people if you are going to ask them to all work co-operatively together in harmony without rulers. It is in fact exactly what Fascist movements have always done. They only survive by maintaining an object of hatred and an iron rule about how dissenters from the line will be dealt with (actually not very different from how RS has often behaved when actually given the power to do so).

It is all well and good saying that such hatred will be tagetted at only the &#39;ruling class&#39;, but the reality is that there will be arguments aplenty about who is and who is not &#39;ruling class&#39;. Certainly Redstar cant define it in any detail, he has been asked, and I can tell you that his definition covers at least 2/3rd of the people I know (including many socialists BTW), and many of the other 1/3rd are totally and implacably against Socialism in any form.

2. A negative message is not actually much of a way to get positive acceptance of what you want.

I feel that RS actually does feel hatred and bitterness. It reeks in his posts. But he cannot seem to really enunciate at whom it is directed except in very general terms (and it frequently spills out against others here who would on the face of it seem to be his natural allies if they so much as dare to question his views in any way)

Comrades I&#39;d say hate nobody. Oppose Capitalism, Convince Capitalists and Workers alike of the superiority of Socialism as a way of deliving a healthy hate free society. If ever the time comes when a clear enemy defines itself (say by preventing a socialist government with a clear majority mandate) then by all means fight it as hard as you can with all the power you possess (certainly I would). Accentuate the positive. Act, and act positively. Bring the day on which either Socialism is instituted or has been suppressed forward. Build power bases that will allow us both to communicate this message better and provide us with weapons (economiic, political, and maybe even military) should we need to fight.

But for the love of Marxism dont adopt a sitting, brooding, whining, and hating attitude that will merely bring derision upon us.

Sc4r.

[crazy comie]

I meant when oil prices go up after oil prouduction peeks.

[redstar2000]

...Now unless you can

1. Guarantee that America will face the biggest Economic Plummet since the Great Depression

or

2. Guarantee that another Advanced Capitalist Nation will see a huge economic plummet, larger or equal to the Great Depression...

Well, IF Marx was right, then both of those things are, at least loosely speaking, "guaranteed".

If Marx was wrong, then all bets are off and you can do whatever you please. Play as many "political games" as you like...maybe the easter bunny will leave "market socialism" in your basket.

But note this: the French working class in May 1968 was "not particularly bad off" and there was no economic catastrophe under way...why did they suddenly go out on a general strike? Why did they threaten proletarian revolution?

(Also note they did it without any vanguard party "leadership".)

How did that happen? And who is so bold to say that it will never happen again?

Oh, and speaking of easter bunnies...


Comrades I&#39;d say hate nobody. Oppose Capitalism, convince Capitalists and Workers alike of the superiority of Socialism as a way of delivering a healthy hate free society.

All we need is :wub: &#33;

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

"A site about egocentricity and contradictory confusion"--sc4r
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A site about communist ideas

[Invader Zim]

Yes, I think it has been shown to be "worse than useless". It is "fucked".

You sound rather upset with me for saying that...but why should I pretend otherwise? If you had a computer problem, would you like it if I gave you a bunch of instructions that not only did not solve the problem but actually made it worse?


Ok, so let me get this streight, you are saying that after parlimentary reform the situation of the working class is worse that before?

So working a 16 hour day if you were above the age of 10, getting no sick pay, living in a room with 10 other people, having no form of sanitation, having no vote unless you were part of the elite 7%, having no formal health service, having no minimum wage, having no social support, having unsafe working conditions and terrible punishments administered for error, is worse than the conditions today after parlimentary reform?

You are so right, im going to right a strong letter to my MP demanding the abolisment of the 1832 Reform Act, the 1867 Reform Act, the 1872 Secret Ballot Act, the 1883 Corrupt Practices Act, the 1884 Reform Act, the 1885 Redistribution Act.

[redstar2000]

You are so right, im going to right a strong letter to my MP demanding the abolisment of the 1832 Reform Act, the 1867 Reform Act, the 1872 Secret Ballot Act, the 1883 Corrupt Practices Act, the 1884 Reform Act, the 1885 Redistribution Act.

Of course...you did oppose them at the time, did you not? :lol:

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A site about communist ideas

[monkeydust]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2003, 10:48 AM

1. Garuantee that America will face the biggest Economic Plummet since the Great Depression

or

2. Garuantee that another Advanced Capitalist Nation will see a huge economic plummet, larger or equal to the Great Depression

or

3. Find a country that isn&#39;t an advanced capitalist nation, where the majority is poor and pissed off


You will not see a revolution in this century or the next.

Revolutions happen when the people are fed up...the people in Advanced Capitalist nations aren&#39;t fed up, in fact they don&#39;t even care.

To win now we need to play the political game, or we wait for Nature to run it&#39;s course and the US to eventually take a turn for the worse at which point we kick it while it&#39;s down
I definately agree with you on the fact that revolutions need people to be fed up, however I still think that its possible within this century, only that a great deal has to change.

At the moment I think in the West there isnt a very large chance of revolution atall. I cant speak so much for America as I dont know to much about the circumstances of the working class there; in Britain at least though, the traditional working class (miners, steel workers etc.) is no longer anywhere near as large as it once was. Many low pay jobs are now taken up in developing countries and so the issue of a working class middle class division has become much more global. This and the fact that conditions in low pay jobs (in the west) are much better than they used to be. So basically people who aren&#39;t so well off feel content with their lot rather than particularly fed up, they dont realise that things could ad should be better ad there probably wont be a revolution in the west at least for a long time.

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2003, 03:58 PM
Ok, so let me get this streight, you are saying that after parlimentary reform the situation of the working class is worse that before?

So working a 16 hour day if you were above the age of 10, getting no sick pay, living in a room with 10 other people, having no form of sanitation, having no vote unless you were part of the elite 7%, having no formal health service, having no minimum wage, having no social support, having unsafe working conditions and terrible punishments administered for error, is worse than the conditions today after parlimentary reform?

You are so right, im going to right a strong letter to my MP demanding the abolisment of the 1832 Reform Act, the 1867 Reform Act, the 1872 Secret Ballot Act, the 1883 Corrupt Practices Act, the 1884 Reform Act, the 1885 Redistribution Act.
We Communists want to completely change the economic base, we want to change capitalism and private ownership to socialism and public ownership. To do this we need to bring a revolutionry change to the economic system.

As Lenin said, there is a danger with Trades Union consciousness, reaching only this level of conscioussness means the working class only seek to obtain concessions from the capitalists and so capitalism continues to exist.

This happens because bourgeois society is so inundated with bourgeois ideas. Ultimately, abject poverty can benefit the working class in the long-term because they will gain a revolutionary conscioussness from being in such a state. Conservatives and Liberals realised this in the late 19th Century and so agreed to give concessions to the working-class.

[Lardlad95]

...Now unless you can

1. Guarantee that America will face the biggest Economic Plummet since the Great Depression

or

2. Guarantee that another Advanced Capitalist Nation will see a huge economic plummet, larger or equal to the Great Depression...

Well, IF Marx was right, then both of those things are, at least loosely speaking, "guaranteed".

If Marx was wrong, then all bets are off and you can do whatever you please. Play as many "political games" as you like...maybe the easter bunny will leave "market socialism" in your basket.

But note this: the French working class in May 1968 was "not particularly bad off" and there was no economic catastrophe under way...why did they suddenly go out on a general strike? Why did they threaten proletarian revolution?

(Also note they did it without any vanguard party "leadership".)

How did that happen? And who is so bold to say that it will never happen again?

Oh, and speaking of easter bunnies...


Comrades I&#39;d say hate nobody. Oppose Capitalism, convince Capitalists and Workers alike of the superiority of Socialism as a way of delivering a healthy hate free society.

All we need is :wub: &#33;

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

"A site about egocentricity and contradictory confusion"--sc4r
The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas


First of all there is no easter bunny damn it...it&#39;s an Easter Mosquito...the Bunny thing is such a fucking Myth perpetuated by the Anti-Mosquito Council.



Honestly I can&#39;t speak for the french, I&#39;m not French, I&#39;ve never met anyone from France(excluding this really attractive girl from Siera Leon who moved to France), and I doubt I&#39;ll ever live in France.

Now while I like the French I&#39;m not going to pretend to know why their people went on strike.

But remember the American are some what of an anamoly, they don&#39;t think or operate like teh reast of the world.

Not to mention the Corporate factions have gotten the American people so wrapped around their finger that no violent revolution appears possible in the near future.


Now who is to say that what happened in France wont happen in another nation, In FACT I HOPE IT DOES HAPPEN


but for now I"m focused on America(seeing as how I"m confined here) and from what i can tell Revolution seems impossible

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by Lenin24+Oct 3 2003, 08:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lenin24 @ Oct 3 2003, 08:18 PM)
[email protected] 3 2003, 10:48 AM

1. Garuantee that America will face the biggest Economic Plummet since the Great Depression

or

2. Garuantee that another Advanced Capitalist Nation will see a huge economic plummet, larger or equal to the Great Depression

or

3. Find a country that isn&#39;t an advanced capitalist nation, where the majority is poor and pissed off


You will not see a revolution in this century or the next.

Revolutions happen when the people are fed up...the people in Advanced Capitalist nations aren&#39;t fed up, in fact they don&#39;t even care.

To win now we need to play the political game, or we wait for Nature to run it&#39;s course and the US to eventually take a turn for the worse at which point we kick it while it&#39;s down
I definately agree with you on the fact that revolutions need people to be fed up, however I still think that its possible within this century, only that a great deal has to change.

At the moment I think in the West there isnt a very large chance of revolution atall. I cant speak so much for America as I dont know to much about the circumstances of the working class there; in Britain at least though, the traditional working class (miners, steel workers etc.) is no longer anywhere near as large as it once was. Many low pay jobs are now taken up in developing countries and so the issue of a working class middle class division has become much more global. This and the fact that conditions in low pay jobs (in the west) are much better than they used to be. So basically people who aren&#39;t so well off feel content with their lot rather than particularly fed up, they dont realise that things could ad should be better ad there probably wont be a revolution in the west at least for a long time. [/b]
you see this is the point I need to make.

You can really only speak on the state of the british working class just as I can only speak on the state of the American classes.


Even if I were to read about Britain&#39;s current state I still wouldn&#39;t have the same knowledge as if I lived there

[apathy maybe]

But note this: the French working class in May 1968 was "not particularly bad off" and there was no economic catastrophe under way...why did they suddenly go out on a general strike? Why did they threaten proletarian revolution?

(Also note they did it without any vanguard party "leadership".)

How did that happen? And who is so bold to say that it will never happen again?
And why in the election that followed did de Gaulle get such a large percentage of the vote?

To answer your question, the students were not well off. The uni&#39;s were crap over crowded and they were being taught right-wing propaganda. The students occupied the uni&#39;s and the workers (many of whom children, no doubt, when to these uni&#39;s) went on strike to support them. They were protesting against the violence towards the students. The workers had much to protest about.

[crazy comie]

I think there will be a simeler thing to the great deprssion when the oil runs out.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2003, 05:17 PM

You are so right, im going to right a strong letter to my MP demanding the abolisment of the 1832 Reform Act, the 1867 Reform Act, the 1872 Secret Ballot Act, the 1883 Corrupt Practices Act, the 1884 Reform Act, the 1885 Redistribution Act.

Of course...you did oppose them at the time, did you not? :lol:

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas
Well not being alive at the time, no, however I am sure that you are old enough to be alive at the time, so what do you make of it?

:redstar2000:

[crazy comie]

very funny