How to deal with family+friends who are reactionary/imperialists

[Metacomet]

Serious question, how is it people deal with family and friends who are so opposed to you politcally? I spend a lot of my time upset, or amped up about what relatives say about things, should I? Should I just ignore it? How can I?

For example my cousin posts on FB (something I am seriously considering not using anymore)

Help me celebrate, all you have to do is burn the flag of a country that harbors or launches terrorist attacks against us (the U.S. or any part of NATO). I recommend burning an Afghani (might be the incorrect term), Iraqi, or Pakistani flag.

My uncle posts.............

Gratitude they all came back from this 1
Regret that's not always the case
Utmost respect, awe, and admiration to those willingly undertaking mission to secure freedoms even for those mutants popping out of their parents basements to spew conspiracy theories over am talk radio
This ain't a movie, it's the real deal
Thanks to The Seals and all the troops serving
HOO-rah

My sister posts

A day we won't forget where we were when we heard the news. God bless all of those we have lost these past 10 years...

Should I ignore it? I feel I cannot challenge all these things.

[DarkNation]

I really don't think you can do anything but ignore it. Most people who have bought into this fanaticism are brainwashed for life. Raging or angsting over these things isn't going to bring the revolution any nearer.

[Desperado]

We must be evangelical, but with some people it's a lost cause - and can just make things worse (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/may/01/bad-science-election-smears). Don't go head on.

[Metacomet]

Whenever I comment on anything they say. They usually delete it :rolleyes:

Like talking about how great it is "we" got "Osama" I mentioned.

(roughly) "Well that was worth thousands of death and trillions of dollars." It got deleted. Then a follow up comment by someone else was "Who cares what it costs?" I then posted a link to the wiki page for Pyrrhic Victory.

I guess I can't help myself. Whenever I see these people in real life I if possible, ignore them, and if not, don't talk about anything approaching politics/economics. If the conversation gets there, I usually say something that makes everyone look at me like I have six heads.

[SJBarley]

Well while I don't agree with the reasons for NATO to be in the middle east your sisters post doesnt seem particularly bad , after all these people have died simply doing their jobs they don't control why they are there.
but yes spotting idiocy is just part and parcel of being a leftist and if you enjoy synical comments on their posts go for it i know i would :laugh:

[Metacomet]

Well while I don't agree with the reasons for NATO to be in the middle east your sisters post doesnt seem particularly bad , after all these people have died simply doing their jobs they don't control why they are there.
but yes spotting idiocy is just part and parcel of being a leftist and if you enjoy synical comments on their posts go for it i know i would :laugh:


Well I suppose context for dealing with her.

She used to be a liberal, tolerable. Honestly, that was back when I was a liberal too. She's had a new boyfriend for the past 6 years. Personally, I can't stand him. She thinks he walks on water.

He is an expert on EVERYTHING because he was an M.P in Iraq. He is a complete, 100% reactionary. And he turned her into one as well. Even her musical taste changed to suit him. Now all she listens too is Toby Keith crap.

All of her posts are something about military this and military that. And you are not allowed to question anything the military does or ever has done. Why? Because he is in the national guard. :rolleyes:

I bet right now she is cooking for him (the woman's job he said) genuflecting herself at every opportunity for personally saving us from OSAMA!!!!!!!!!

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

the more reactionary they are, the less i have to do with them. liberals are easy because they really wanna come across as if they want the best for the world - i've turned liberal friends onto left ideas. fortunately none of my actual friends or family are conservatives, the conservatives i've spoken to are either ignorant poor people, who there may be little hope for, or property owners/business fuck heads who are conservative for obvious reasons.

in any case if you're gonna talk politics with anyone like that its better to start from smaller issues than the death of bin laden, given its a massive deal to these idiots due to the fact that they are brainwashed into taking it very personally.

[Sir Comradical]

You have family members who are imperialists? Who are they?

[Quail]

Most of my friends have tolerable views, my family can be racist and homophobic though. I tend to try to avoid discussions about politics with my family. My parents constantly ridicule my ideas (as though there's something wrong with being against organised religion and the monarchy :rolleyes:) so even if I do try to argue back, they still continue to spout moronic rubbish at me. For example, when I was trying to explain how a society would function in a world without money, my mum kept going on about how companies need to make profit - in a society that has abolished money? What the fuck? I also recently called out one of my friends on using the word "paki" in general conversation, which for some reason took the rest of my friends by surprise, and he got very defensive. It often seems like a lost cause, which depresses me a lot.

[Arlekino]

My boss are very right winger his always attacking Algerian worker, if you would listening his thoughts and facsist comments it make really sick, the sad news we can't say nothing we just shut up and could not dare to complaint. Most of my family members strict catholic views which as well not exciting at all but one thing I found very interesting about my mother she is dead now but in Soviet Union she was communist party member and religious person, and kind of Stalinist views. She often spoke to me " I joined party because we could get better commodities) When I try to explain my left wing views well ( if you sell apple need make profit and companies provide jobs). My husband kind of ok his anti racist and more on socialist ideas.

[Misanthrope]

There is no convincing those type of people, why bother?

[Dumb]

Paul the Apostle gives some good advice on this issue. From the Book of Romans:


16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
;)

[RedStarOverChina]

Adding family members on facebook is generally a bad idea, but since you've already made that irreparable mistake, you can innocently post leftist stuff that you know would annoy your redneck relatives.

When they come to your facebook page to argue with you, then you can engage in a debate with them. Just so you look less like a provocateur.

[Aurorus Ruber]

I live in an incredibly conservative area and pretty much everyone in my family leans well to the right. For the most part I avoid political tops since I have found they rarely go anywhere. It always ends with them quoting the Bible and failing to understand why I don't consider Bible quotes conclusive evidence or something along those lines. I do speak up when someone makes a blatantly racist comment (which happens fairly often though not constantly).

If that seems bleak, I have found that discussion can sometimes work with people willing to listen. My mother has moderated her attitudes considerably over the years largely because I persisted in challenging her assertions. Compared to almost everyone else I know, she's downright liberal, although she remains pretty firmly wedded to the whole patriotism and militarism thing. Unfortunately she seems like the rare exception around here.

[MarxSchmarx]

One thing to do, if it really troubles you, is find areas where there is potential for common ground.

Here are some experiences I've had. We have some family friends who are a couple, the husband is a capitalist-libertarian and the wife is a sweet, generous person who also harbors some reactionary political views that really raise eyebrows. With the wife, I've generally avoided anything political but we exchange jokes and can be convivial. With the husband, it's not that hard to discuss how the state is colluding with big business and talk about things like the need for open borders, that sort of thing.

Another family member is pretty right-wing, but they are very intelligent and we can discuss some things from a positive, rather than normative perspective, and come to agreement about certain issues - especially if the question is what is going on rather than what should be done about it. For example, we have had productive discussions about the mid-east protests and things like that. We could also discuss how mass immigration from Africa, Asia and Latin America is changing Europe Australia and north America while scrupulously avoiding the question of whether that is a "good" or "bad" thing. Obviously it depends a lot on the person and there are people who it just never makes sense to breech the subject - instead talk about something less political like their garden. And sometimes right-wingers could be passionate about the same things you are that aren't strictly political, like literature or meteorology or whatever.

Having said that, you just have to tailer your talk to the audience you're with. Even around "liberals" they get uncomfortable very quickly if you start talking about hte "bourgeois oppression of the working class" - not so much politically uncomfortable, as talking like we do on revleft theory for example very quickly gets you labeled a bore and there are very, very few people who care to discuss the finer points of the third five year plan well into the night.

[Tablo]

My parents are both right wing. They claim to not have any issues with gay people, but my mom opposes them marrying and often stereotypes them. They are also very fiscally conservative and love Glenn Beck. It is weird though because my dad, despite being a conservative, grew up poor and supports random things like universal healthcare. He is also not nearly as homophobic and transphobic as my mother. He can be prone to racism though. He claims he isn't, but when you complain about black people being lazy that makes it quite hard to believe. I guess it is a hard mindset for him to break from after growing up in a poor rural community that had a lot of racial tension.

My youngest sister is super religious and is part of this super church in my area. I swear it has got to be a fucking cult or something. The church is ultra homophobic and very conservative. My sister, however, listens to me and agrees with me on pretty much everything I say outside of religion, despite me being a godless communist. She does weird stuff like leave religious quotes on my computer when I'm visiting home.

My other younger sister is definitely left-wing. She was involved in some Palestine solidarity work and is strongly opposed to homophobia, transphobia, racism, and sexism. Her politics aren't very cohesive though so if she were to vote I think she would be voting for something like the Peace and Freedom Party.

Most my friends don't have any real political ideology. Most of them are either gay or transgendered though so they are more prone to support the left on issues. Plus a couple of my friends are undocumented immigrants. I always get along with them on politics except for a couple of them that are very fiscally conservative and one of those two that is prone to say racist things that upset all of us...

I argue politics sometimes, but my family can still get along. Just don't get too worked up about it. Some people are set in their ways and just won't change. :/

[Ele'ill]

Serious question, how is it people deal with family and friends who are so opposed to you politcally? I spend a lot of my time upset, or amped up about what relatives say about things, should I? Should I just ignore it? How can I?

Never discuss politics with family and friends because the conversation is immediately personal by default.



For example my cousin posts on FB (something I am seriously considering not using anymore)

Help me celebrate, all you have to do is burn the flag of a country that harbors or launches terrorist attacks against us (the U.S. or any part of NATO). I recommend burning an Afghani (might be the incorrect term), Iraqi, or Pakistani flag.

My uncle posts.............

Gratitude they all came back from this 1
Regret that's not always the case
Utmost respect, awe, and admiration to those willingly undertaking mission to secure freedoms even for those mutants popping out of their parents basements to spew conspiracy theories over am talk radio
This ain't a movie, it's the real deal
Thanks to The Seals and all the troops serving
HOO-rah

My sister posts

A day we won't forget where we were when we heard the news. God bless all of those we have lost these past 10 years...

Should I ignore it? I feel I cannot challenge all these things.

They're not really interested in the politics behind it- they're interested in the idea of themselves having an opinion. You know they're position is ridiculously flawed- leave it at that- leave them behind. Get out into the world and meet people who you do agree with.

[Lunatic Concept]

My family arent to bad tbh. There both pretty soft left (voting labour ect) and my parents more or less introduced me to politics with stuff like george orwell or robert tressal (they encourage me to read) which pretty much led to me getting more radical. There both pretty socially liberal so thats cool. We do actually talk about politics since we agree with quite a lot of stuff. There also like ex punks which is kinda cool :D lotsa anarchy around. Im still a socialist im just a bit more radical than them. With OP I would say...erm...subtle hints I suppose? Just attack imperialism a bit thats quite easy since thats what theyll probably attack you on.

[Magón]

If it's just family, it can lead to some good conversations and understanding of one another better, if they're willing to talk about it. (Better to do in person than on Facebook really.) Ignoring the matter doesn't really help unless you or the other person(s) aren't willing to chat about it at all, and just don't agree politically and never will, so politics are best avoided all together with the person(s).

Personally, I have some reactionary family members, and we used to ignore talking politics all the time. Mostly because they didn't think I was old or mature enough, to talk or know about politics, and most of the time, like now, we disagree on a lot of matters. But now that I'm older and more mature to them, talking politics has really opened up an understanding of both sides, and where the other comes from. Ignoring it as long as we did, probably didn't help much, at least with some people in my family and me it didn't, but sometimes there's just nothing you can to do try and start up a political conversation.

[praxis1966]

Most of the respondents here have basically been circling around what I would say already. You just have to know how to pick your battles. Some people you can win over, some people you can't, and it's a distinction that you'll learn to make only through experience. Judging by your question, I can only conclude that you're still fairly young which makes you wanna set the fucking world on fire, but you're just gonna have to learn to hold your tongue in certain situations, lulz.

For instance, my mother was basically center-left for years... But after literally hundreds of conversations about politics, including some important ones (in her mind) where I accurately predicted that the US wouldn't find any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq (not exactly revelatory around here, but to people with mainstream politics that sort of thing is earth shattering, lol) and the like, she basically had to admit that I had been right all along. She's now a self avowed socialist... She doesn't claim any particular tendency, but the fact that she's a long time teacher who's now fully committing herself to being an anticapitalist agitator as a union rep (something she probably never would have considered 10 years ago) is fucking fine by me...

On the other hand, there are just some people who are bound and determined to being reactionary. Thankfully, I didn't have any of those people in my immediate family. I do, however, have friends I've known since high school that are that way. We certainly go at each other hammer and tongs from time to time, but at the end of the day it's our shared history that keeps us friends as that's a pretty difficult bond to break.

In short, anytime people make sexist, racist, trans/homophobic comments, you should definitely have at them. There's never any excuse for being a bigot, and I'm of the mind that the more you try to make them feel ashamed of themselves the better. When it comes to those sorts of conversations I've never felt even the slightest bit guilty about hurting people's feelings and trampling toes. There's a definite demarcation line when it comes to everything else, though. I definitely wouldn't bother myself being concerned about uncles and cousins and what not. That kind of thing can cause rifts between branches of the family tree that just aren't necessary. As for friends and immediate family members, there's nothing wrong with a little lively debate as long as all parties involved know how to be polite. With coworkers, you might just wanna check your politics at the door... Having those kinds of discussions at work are a good way to get yourself shitcanned.

[Commissar Rykov]

With my extended family I don't even bother they can say things that would make a Klansman blush. I really don't see a point and I limit my interaction with them to certain family events even then I don't bother with them. My immediate family I have always discussed politics with because my parents have always encouraged intellectual curiosity.

Just pick your battles it really isn't worth the headache or raising of blood pressure dealing with idiots at times.

[Agent Ducky]

They sound woefully ignorant and stubborn, they're not even worth it. I totally empathize with how you feel when seeing people say stuff like that and not being able to do anything about it. They won't argue with you because they secretly know that you have a really good point but your point goes against nationalism, and nationalism is more important than truth for them. Find some reactionary friends who are willing to argue. I've had many really awesome facebook wars come of capitalist friends who are ready to fight =D

[Delenda Carthago]

If you cant convince your own family, how you gon convince a whole society?

[tracher999]

fuck it beat the shit out off that bastarts my dad is very reactionary to i hate that guy most off the time i can not talk with him my grandmom is a brainwachet bith to
the most off my family on my dads site are capitalists i hate to go to b day partys with that people its always going about there money and shit that they have new

:laugh:

[Leonid Brozhnev]

Can't really empathise but I can imagine how having a family like that must suck balls. My family is pretty poor (my mother is disabled and my stepdad restores old cars for a living), they have been on the receiving end of many threatening letters, phonecalls, police, baliffs, the lot... so they understand and sympathise with my views, most of the political rants I go on they generally agree with. I did get into an argument a few times with a family friend who is a confused anti-communist Socialist Muslim who favours the death penalty and equates all Communism to an exaggerated vision of the Soviet Stalinist period...

[Commissar Rykov]

If you cant convince your own family, how you gon convince a whole society?

Not all of society is going to agree with our views either to think otherwise is to be naive. Counterrevolutionaries don't just spring out of the ground like daisies.

[The Intransigent Faction]

My parents both voted Conservative, although my mom's more socially liberal than my dad. I tend to avoid discussing politics with most of them, though it was my Aunt (who claims to have once been a Communist) who finally convinced me to turn away from Leninism, which led me to Left-Wing Communism.

Most of my friends are "Liberal" (so they call themselves, but ideologically they're more like Social Democrats for the most part), but I know a few Randroids and one guy who admires Mussolini, who are pretty much hopeless cases.

So yeah, I'm stubborn and it took me a while to learn, but you're better off picking your battles.

What I'm getting frustrated by is stubborn 'moderates' who dismiss anyone to the left of Social Democrats as extremist idealists.

[Nothing Human Is Alien]

If you cant convince your own family, how you gon convince a whole society?

You won't. Leaving aside obvious class enemies, you won't even "convince" the working class. That's not how it happens.

Workers are forced into battle by the inner workings of the capitalist system. Their position as wage slaves is what makes them revolutionary, not ideology or dogma.

"What this involves is not a prediction of revolution but a matter of methodology. The ordinary understanding of working-class activity is based on the idea that consciousness leads to, or causes, action. It would seem more valid to say that action leads to consciousness or, more precisely, that activity and consciousness interact in ways that are rarely predictable. For example, when workers in one department of a plant walk out to protest some grievance, their objectives are usually quite limited. But if that walkout triggers the shutdown of the entire plant, working people are then likely to raise their sights. They have learned, through their activity, that their grievance (and, presumably, other grievances) is shared by fellow workers throughout the plant. They have also learned that not only are their grievances shared but their power is also shared and is made more substantial by being shared." - Martin Glaberman

"In the Vietnam War, for example, the picture most people had was of middle-class radicals, the New Left, fighting against the war and the hard-hats supporting it and beating up the antiwar students. Yet more war production was stopped by workers carrying on ordinary strikes in the course of their lives in the plants than by the whole antiwar movement put together. There were strikes at Olin-Matheson, which made munitions, at McDonnell-Douglas, which made fighter planes, on the Missouri Pacific railroad, which transported war materials for shipment from the Pacific coast. In a few instances, strikes lasted a couple of weeks, and the shortage of planes and war material reached the point where the Johnson administration was getting ready to take over the plants to stop the strikes.

"This was not because the workers were anti-war. Many workers were, but many weren’t. What the workers were doing was trying to live as human beings in the process of production." - Martin Glaberman

“Marx believed that the conditions of life and work of the proletariat would force the working class to behave in ways that would ultimately transform society. In other words, what Marx said was: We’re not talking about going door-to-door and making workers into ideal socialists. You’ve got to take workers as they are, with all their contradictions, with all their nonsense. But the fact that society forces them to struggle begins to transform the working class. If white workers realize they can’t organize steel unless they organize black workers, that doesn’t mean they’re not racist. It means that they have to deal with their own reality, and that transforms them. Who were the workers who made the Russian Revolution? Sexists, nationalists, half of them illiterate. Who were the workers in Polish Solidarity? Anti-Semitic, whatever. That kind of struggle begins to transform people.” - Martin Glaberman

“Both for the production on a mass scale of this communist consciousness, and for the success of the cause itself, the alteration of men on a mass scale is necessary, an alteration that can only take place in a practical movement, a revolution; the revolution is necessary, therefore, not only the ruling class cannot be overthrown in any other way, but also because the class overthrowing it can only in a revolution succeed in ridding itself of all the muck of ages and become fitted to found society anew.” - Marx, The German Ideology

What people who have a grasp of the situation can do is try to study and figure things out best we can so that when the class does start to move, when fellow workers, friends, family, etc., are forced into battle, we can offer sound advice that will help them in their current situation and move toward the real solution, ie. the abolition of capitalism.

[Metacomet]

Most of the respondents here have basically been circling around what I would say already. You just have to know how to pick your battles. Some people you can win over, some people you can't, and it's a distinction that you'll learn to make only through experience. Judging by your question, I can only conclude that you're still fairly young which makes you wanna set the fucking world on fire, but you're just gonna have to learn to hold your tongue in certain situations, lulz.

For instance, my mother was basically center-left for years... But after literally hundreds of conversations about politics, including some important ones (in her mind) where I accurately predicted that the US wouldn't find any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq (not exactly revelatory around here, but to people with mainstream politics that sort of thing is earth shattering, lol) and the like, she basically had to admit that I had been right all along. She's now a self avowed socialist... She doesn't claim any particular tendency, but the fact that she's a long time teacher who's now fully committing herself to being an anticapitalist agitator as a union rep (something she probably never would have considered 10 years ago) is fucking fine by me...

On the other hand, there are just some people who are bound and determined to being reactionary. Thankfully, I didn't have any of those people in my immediate family. I do, however, have friends I've known since high school that are that way. We certainly go at each other hammer and tongs from time to time, but at the end of the day it's our shared history that keeps us friends as that's a pretty difficult bond to break.

In short, anytime people make sexist, racist, trans/homophobic comments, you should definitely have at them. There's never any excuse for being a bigot, and I'm of the mind that the more you try to make them feel ashamed of themselves the better. When it comes to those sorts of conversations I've never felt even the slightest bit guilty about hurting people's feelings and trampling toes. There's a definite demarcation line when it comes to everything else, though. I definitely wouldn't bother myself being concerned about uncles and cousins and what not. That kind of thing can cause rifts between branches of the family tree that just aren't necessary. As for friends and immediate family members, there's nothing wrong with a little lively debate as long as all parties involved know how to be polite. With coworkers, you might just wanna check your politics at the door... Having those kinds of discussions at work are a good way to get yourself shitcanned.

Thanks, I think you hit the nail on the head. :)

[praxis1966]

Thanks, I think you hit the nail on the head. :)

No problem, homie. Perspective is one of the few benefits of being an old fart... :lol:

[Aspiring Humanist]

I know a kid who posted this yesterday "libertarians are not fascist and if poor people are smart there happy being poor."
Its sad

[Omsk]

I'v never had that problem,my family is tolerant and my grandfather/father/brother is leftist too.