Osama bin Laden's death... Hold on just a fkn second. [Archive]

Rafiq

2nd May 2011, 22:06

I don't want to sound like a mad conspiracy theorist, but let's think about this for a second.

Apparently he was killed in a mansion, (he was living there) and it stood out, and obviously everyone knew someone important was living there.

There could be two alternative explanations:

'Al Queda' put in a volunteer decoy of Osama Bin Laden, to almost make sure he is killed, to ensure the real Osama is forever safe from assassination.

'Al Queda' isn't stupid. Osama Bin Laden isn't going to hide in a giant ass compound in Pakistan, almost waving to the Imperialists "Hey, I'm over here!" unless he (or his decoy or whatever) was doing it intentionally.

A Second possibility is that the United States either Lied, or set up the whole thing to create a Martyr out of Osama, to

1. Make an excuse to 'tighten up' on security (we don't want revenge blah blah), and possibly send it's toys to Middle East countries which it suspects could be threats.

2. Almost send a message to Al Queda saying "Nah Nah Nah we killed your Leader you can't get us back, nah nah nah :tt2:" pretty much asking for another attack, which will be justification for another 10 year long war.

A third possibility is that everything I'm saying is ridiculous, and that the Media is right.

Anyway, what do you think about this? There isn't any evidence regarding his death, so what do you think?

PhoenixAsh

2nd May 2011, 22:16

I try not to think about it...

I simply do not care. But if it is a lie...I certainly hope that it will be exposed. There will definately be a huge backlash then :-)

apawllo

2nd May 2011, 22:17

I'm not sure yet. What's Ja Rule's opinion on all of this?

Princess Luna

2nd May 2011, 22:17

First off the idea of a decoy is out because they compared the DNA from the body with DNA from Bin laden's sister. As for the idea of the American government pretending to have killed him, that could be true but i doubt it. Everybody slips up after awhile, and when the most powerful government in the world wants you dead, you know its going to happen eventually.

(unless your Castro)

PhoenixAsh

2nd May 2011, 22:25

well....we have their word they compared the DNA. Since the body no longer exists....

I recall all the evidence which showed, beyond a shadow of a doubt, absolutely undeniable that there were WMDs in Iraq...;)

So...I currently decide to have no opinion either way. I just take it as is.

Rafiq

2nd May 2011, 22:25

RadioRaheem84

2nd May 2011, 22:29

Third theory: He was being aided by elements of the Pakistani army intelligence which are known to be sympathetic to Al Qaeda.

La ComÃ©die Noire

2nd May 2011, 22:32

I knew people were gonna start saying this. I highly doubt it was faked.

Os Cangaceiros

2nd May 2011, 22:32

It would be awesome if he put out another video where he was just all like, "Yo, wuddup niggas? Thought you got me, didn't cha? YOU THOUGHT WRONG."

Then he does a little touchdown dance.

Rafiq

2nd May 2011, 22:34

Ha, we should all make a video like that, or take the Trololo video, and put Osama's face on it.

"You just got trolled!"

Kassad

2nd May 2011, 22:36

Personally, I'd like to see an image. When the military killed Saddam's sons, they paraded the images around to gloat about it. I'm stunned that such a notable person on imperialism's hit list gets killed and the media doesn't show off a bit. This is just my opinion that I'm taking from personal experience.

Either way, it's not really of significance. It gave frat boys on my campus an excuse to go out and party and it gave me a chance to throw half-full glass bottles at them from my window. Everybody wins.

gorillafuck

2nd May 2011, 22:40

Everybody slips up after awhile, and when the most powerful government in the world wants you dead, you know its going to happen eventually.They couldn't do it for nearly 10 years, why are we to assume it's true when they finally say he's dead?

Obs

2nd May 2011, 22:40

This thing has bullshit written all over it. I'd wager none of it's true, though I'm not sure just why they'd make something like this up now. Maybe a particularly bald-faced attempt by Obama to recover some of his waning popularity?

Arlekino

2nd May 2011, 22:44

agnixie

2nd May 2011, 23:07

Well is little confusing about Osamas death, I thought USA military equipments are so advance, some science tools can trace person under ground miles away, and they could not catch him before very strange.

It's mostly a cute jingoistic story to give the impression that american weaponry is more advanced than it really is.

Gorilla

2nd May 2011, 23:10

He died of kidney failure c. 2003 (source: Gorilla). This is just a magic show for the tenth anniversary.

Wash Me

2nd May 2011, 23:27

I believe the guy has been long dead and its perfect timing to take credit for his death since its a critical time for obama's administration. And of course they try to exploit the situation with the whole extension on war against terror for security reasons against a revenge attack on bin laden's death...

Hexen

2nd May 2011, 23:32

I realize this entire thing is being set up just to boost Obama's approval ratings.

Robocommie

2nd May 2011, 23:37

gorillafuck

2nd May 2011, 23:38

This isn't hard to believe, though. We'll be able to tell depending on whether Osama Bin Laden releases a video. Which he will certainly do if he's still alive.

Rafiq

2nd May 2011, 23:40

That'll be epic ^

MagÃ³n

2nd May 2011, 23:41

Robocommie

2nd May 2011, 23:42

THERE'S A PATTERN!!!!!

1st. Margret Thatcher in '82 with the Falklands War. Wins in a landslide in '83.

2nd. Bush Jr. in '03 Invades Iraq, wins the '04 elections big time.

3rd. Obama kills Osama, wins '12 elections.

It's as if politicians attempt to manipulate events so that they somehow benefit... WHAT THE FRICK

agnixie

2nd May 2011, 23:44

This isn't hard to believe, though. We'll be able to tell depending on whether Osama Bin Laden releases a video. Which he will certainly do if he's still alive.

Al Qaeda admitted it.
That would be a weird retraction though.

MagÃ³n

2nd May 2011, 23:47

It's as if politicians attempt to manipulate events so that they somehow benefit... WHAT THE FRICK

Hey man, like any good conspiracy theorist, I'm onto something! So, SHUT UP! YOU'LL SPILL THE BEANS MAN!!!! :lol:

Robocommie

2nd May 2011, 23:48

Osama Bin Laden releases a video.

Jalg7J9uBPQ

Hexen

2nd May 2011, 23:49

THERE'S A PATTERN!!!!!

1st. Margret Thatcher in '82 with the Falklands War. Wins in a landslide in '83.

2nd. Bush Jr. in '03 Invades Iraq, wins the '04 elections big time.

3rd. Obama kills Osama, wins '12 elections.

Seems like a tactic for politicians to stay in power longer.

Psy

2nd May 2011, 23:51

Well is little confusing about Osamas death, I thought USA military equipments are so advance, some science tools can trace person under ground miles away, and they could not catch him before very strange.
It is impossible to track anyone underground miles away, if it was the oil industry would have a much very easier time in finding oil reserves.

RedHal

3rd May 2011, 00:16

October surprise
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_surprise

Spets

3rd May 2011, 00:23

Hopefully the USA can concentrate on rebuilding what they destroyed, or feeding/clothing the poor in the Middle East as well as on the home front now.

Delenda Carthago

3rd May 2011, 06:06

As long as it doesnt generates a retaliation from the islamofascists that would harm innocent people, I dont give a shit.

Dumb

3rd May 2011, 06:30

If there is any sort of conspiracy involved on the part of the U.S. government, I'd suspect it has more to do with the U.S. delaying the killing of Osama Bin Laden until Obama could get maximum mileage out of the event. It would be too stupid of the U.S. government to claim credit for OBL's death when he could so easily put out a new tape; Obama would look like an absolute idiot.

So, from that angle, I'm 100% certain the U.S. government sincerely believes Osama Bin Laden has been killed.

Lobotomy

3rd May 2011, 06:44

Al Qaeda admitted it.
That would be a weird retraction though.

I wonder if there is any way that Al Qaeda could benefit from the public believing that Bin Laden is dead.

Thirsty Crow

3rd May 2011, 09:13

Third theory: He was being aided by elements of the Pakistani army intelligence which are known to be sympathetic to Al Qaeda.
And the potential consequences of this theory turning up true are undeniably horrific, on a global scale.

Hopefully the USA can concentrate on rebuilding what they destroyed, or feeding/clothing the poor in the Middle East as well as on the home front now.
Rebuilding: massive construction contracts, meaning national debt for the governments of invaded countries

Feeding and clothing: not without a profit, which also presupposes subsidies if poor people are to be taken care of.

Home front: yeah, they've got some union busting to do, as well as the continued war on real wages and working class living standards.

I'm just sure that soon the US will show its true humanitarian, altuistic sides and help make these devastated areas into paradise on Earth where fried chicken flies around, and all you've got to do is to open your mouth wide.

Omegared

3rd May 2011, 12:11

Personally, I'd like to see an image. When the military killed Saddam's sons, they paraded the images around to gloat about it. I'm stunned that such a notable person on imperialism's hit list gets killed and the media doesn't show off a bit. This is just my opinion that I'm taking from personal experience.

This is exactly what I have been suspecting and told a couple of friends. Every time the USG has one of its enemies killed there are many photos, even back when Che was captured and killed.

t.shonku

3rd May 2011, 12:39

1.I am still skeptical about the whole darn thing , how the hell was Osama living in such a luxurious big house so close to Military Academy of Pakistan and no body knew a thing?

2.When Obama's popularity rating was decreasing rapidly suddenly he suddenly finds Osama in Pakistan and shoots him ! , coincidences have a limit

3.Why the hell was his body dumped to the sea?

Anyway even if he was killed I don't really care after all he was a Frankenstein of CIA . But this will have very minimum impact , war will continue and more people will continue to get killed, there will be no peace until and unless there is no solution on Palestinian issue.

Sasha

3rd May 2011, 12:43

Originally Posted by Kassad http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2098899#post2098899)
Personally, I'd like to see an image. When the military killed Saddam's sons, they paraded the images around to gloat about it. I'm stunned that such a notable person on imperialism's hit list gets killed and the media doesn't show off a bit. This is just my opinion that I'm taking from personal experience.

to be fair; remember the surge in retaliation attacks in iraq after that?
and since osama got shot in the face i have no doubt that the pics are absolutely gruesome, they will release them but only after there is enough public "deather" pressure so obama can say "sorry, i really didnt want to do this, i really didnt want to gloat but i have to release this pictures now, sorry, but here are also the pictures to show we have given him an respectfull burial"
its the longform bith certificate allover, seems we forgot that obama is a very skillfull politician and not an knucledragger like dubya.

PhoenixAsh

3rd May 2011, 12:46

Ok...here is my take on it.

Osama had now officially outlived his usefulness except for stirring up more fires of controversy and antagonize to validate policy and distract from something they do not want us to know about....so watch the news and media for something that slipped by in the comming days. He was just a face to put onto an enemy so it would make that enemy be perceived as real and as defeatable.

A face we have heard little from outside of vague and non dated video's and recordings. Osama was not a big factor anymore. He has and had played his role and now it was time for something new to focus the attention of the masses on.

Nothing of this means anything concrete other than the fact he may be dead now.

Oswy

3rd May 2011, 12:49

I don't see any reason to doubt it, though you do have to admit that it's kind of convenient that there's no picture, and they've already dumped his body into the ocean.

But it happens that way sometimes. Note that nobody ever really saw Hitler's body either, but it's pretty much a sure thing that he died in his bunker in Berlin. They never found Frederick Barbarossa's body either, or Spartacus, or Constantine XI Paleologos, the last Byzantine Emperor.

I imagine he's going to end up being like Elvis Presley and Tupac, people will keep seeing him or speculating wildly on where he "really" is for the next 50-60 years.

I'm not disagreeing with you as such but the US military went to a lot of effort to ensure images of Saddam being caught were transmitted, and ensured images of his dead sons got out too prior to that. All things being equal I'd have expected the US to have been quite careful to get out good images/video of Bin Laden as dead. I dunno either way, but this is the age of the digital camera and video clip.

Sasha

3rd May 2011, 14:06

3.Why the hell was his body dumped to the sea?

because of this:

The free world, particularly the United States, has a right to make sure Osama bin Laden is really dead. Every American has a right to walk right up to bin Laden’s corpse and view it. We are entitled to know for a fact that the witch is dead. No shroud for dignity’s sake, please — bin Laden’s naked, bullet-riddled corpse should be put on display in lower Manhattan for all the world to see.

imagine what the "debate" would be now if they still had the body, the Reps would be screaming for his decapitated head to be rammed up an spike on ground zero and his body hung from the statue of liberty.

again, dont underestimate how good obama is at what he does.

Sword and Shield

3rd May 2011, 15:30

October surprise
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_surprise

A year early man. I do think it secured Obama's reelection though.

RadioRaheem84

3rd May 2011, 15:37

How does not one not become a conspiracy nut with all that is going on?

Found in mansion in a resort town next to the West Point of Pakistan?

Killed with one of his sons?

This sounds like a man who was protected.

Next, this events happens right after the Royal Wedding and right after the hoopla with birth certificate and more threats from Trump to release his school records.

There is limit to coincidences.

Franz Fanonipants

3rd May 2011, 16:15

1.I am still skeptical about the whole darn thing , how the hell was Osama living in such a luxurious big house so close to Military Academy of Pakistan and no body knew a thing?

I totally bet A Body knew a thing. A Body called the Inter-Services Intelligence.

That said I'm p. sure that it was Osama who was killed and pretty much that's it.

MagÃ³n

3rd May 2011, 16:17

3.Why the hell was his body dumped to the sea?

Apparently it's a Muslim tradition for certain people.

How does not one not become a conspiracy nut with all that is going on?

Found in mansion in a resort town next to the West Point of Pakistan?

http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2011/05/02/world/asia/20110503_BINLADEN-2.html

First picture of the place they found Osama and killed him. Doesn't look quite like the resort towns here in the US, or in Europe.

Killed with one of his sons?

This sounds like a man who was protected.

Well yeah, why wouldn't he be protected? There's a shit load of people in Pakistan and Afghanistan who supported Osama and Al Qaeda in hiding out for so long.

Next, this events happens right after the Royal Wedding and right after the hoopla with birth certificate and more threats from Trump to release his school records.

There is limit to coincidences.

Or it was just Obama's way of changing the course of the media from pointless stories of, "Was Barack Obama born in the US?" "Does he have a Certificate of Birth?" "What does Obama's school records hold?" "Will Donald Trump become the Republican's political nominee for 2012, with all this supposed information against Obama?" to "OSAMA BIN LADEN, man who's killed millions, and repressed more, is dead!"

Yeah, not quite a coincidence of events, more just trying to turn the tables away from bullshit events. :)

robbo203

3rd May 2011, 17:04

A rather good press statement from Peter Joseph of the Zeitgeist movement..

http://www.facebook.com/notes/peter-joseph/press-release-tzm-response-to-media-death-of-osama-bin-laden/201226439915794

TZM: Response to Media; Death of Osama bin Laden

On May 1, 2011 Pres. Barack Obama appeared on national television with the spontaneous announcement that Osama bin Laden, the purported organizer of the tragic events of September 11th 2001, was killed by military forces in Pakistan.

Within moments, a media blitz ran across virtually all television networks in what could only be described as a grotesque celebratory display, reflective of a level of emotional immaturity that borders on cultural psychosis. Depictions of people running through the streets of New York and Washington chanting jingoistic American slogans, waving their flags like the members of some cult, praising the death of another human being, reveals yet another layer of this sickness we call modern society.

It is not the scope of this response to address the political usage of such an event or to illuminate the staged orchestration of how public perception was to be controlled by the mainstream media and the United States Government. Rather the point of this article is to express the gross irrationality apparent and how our culture becomes so easily fixed and emotionally charged with respect to surface symbology, rather than true root problems, solutions or rational considerations of circumstance.

The first and most obvious point is that the death of Osama bin Laden means nothing when it comes to the problem of international terrorism. His death simply serves as catharsis for a culture that has a neurotic fixation on revenge and retribution. The very fact that the Government which, from a psychological standpoint, has always served as a paternal figure for it citizens, reinforces the idea that murdering people is a solution to anything should be enough for most of us to take pause and consider the quality of the values coming out of the zeitgeist itself.

However, beyond the emotional distortions and tragic, vindictive pattern of rewarding the continuation of human division and violence comes a more practical consideration regarding what the problem really is and the importance of that problem with respect to priority.

The death of any human being is of an immeasurable consequence in society. It is never just the death of the individual. It is the death of relationships, companionship, support and the integrity of familial and communal environments. The unnecessary deaths of 3000 people on September 11, 2001 is no more or no less important than the deaths of those during the World Wars, via cancer and disease, accidents or anything else.

As a society, it is safe to say that we seek a world that strategically limits all such unnecessary consequences through social approaches that allow for the greatest safety our ingenuity can create. It is in this context that the neurotic obsession with the events of September 11th, 2001 become gravely insulting and detrimental to progress. An environment has now been created where outrageous amounts of money, resources and energy is spent seeking and destroying very small subcultures of human beings that pose ideological differences and act on those differences through violence.

Yet, in the United States alone each year, roughly 30,000 people die from automobile accidents, the majority of which could be stopped by very simple structural changes. That's ten 9/11's each year... yet no one seems to pine over this epidemic. Likewise, over 1 million Americans die from heart disease and cancer annually - causes of which are now easily linked to environmental influences in the majority. Yet, regardless of the over 330 9/11's occurring each year in this context, the governmental budget allocations for research on these illnesses is only a fraction of the money spent on “anti-terrorism” operations.

Such a list could go on and on and with regard to the perversion of priority when it comes to what it means to truly save and protect human life and I hope many out there can recognize the severe unbalance we have at hand with respect to our values.

So, coming back to the point of revenge and retribution, I will conclude this response with a quote from Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., likely the most brilliant intuitive mind when it came to conflict and the power of non-violence. On September 15, 1963 a Birmingham Alabama church was bombed, killing four little girls attending Sunday school.

In a public address, Dr. King stated:

“What murdered these four girls? Look around. You will see that many people that you never thought about participated in this evil act. So tonight all of us must leave here with a new determination to struggle. God has a job for us to do. Maybe our mission is to save the soul of America. We can't save the soul of this nation throwing bricks. We can't save the soul of this nation getting our ammunitions and going out shooting physical weapons. We must know that we have something much more powerful. Just take up the ammunition of love.”

- Dr. Martin Luther King, 1963

~Peter Joseph
wwwthezeitgeistmovement.com

Dr Mindbender

3rd May 2011, 17:36

Someone on my facebook profile made the good point that burying him at sea will backfire on America... They've buried him in the same place as Megatron, fuck knows what they will be planning down there!

:(

CHEtheLIBERATOR

3rd May 2011, 17:47

agnixie

3rd May 2011, 19:24

bcbm

3rd May 2011, 19:38

bin laden death momentarily distracts americans from own poverty (http://gawker.com/#%215797719/bin-laden-death-momentarily-distracts-americans-from-own-poverty)

americans drink beer and barf together at ground zero (http://wonkette.com/444803/photos-america-pounds-beers-together-at-ground-zero)

1. The united states lies on a daily basis
2. They haven't released any tangible evidence of his death
3. Obama and Bush have both stated bin laden is not a real Muslim (which is true) so why would they put so much stress on him getting such a proper muslim burial
4. Formally when they killed high priced terrorist they display there corpses( ex. uday and qusay Hussein)
5. If they think there will be retaliation for bin ladens death, how would there be more retaliation for showing his death photo

1. also tells the truth
2. dna test, also not something you really would lie about
3,4,5. to not aggrandize the situation any more

Manic Impressive

3rd May 2011, 19:51

BBC news this morning compared Bin Laden to Che Guevara and not in a positive way I'm still raging about this even though it was 12 hours ago :cursing:

Il Medico

3rd May 2011, 20:09

RadioRaheem84

3rd May 2011, 20:25

Apparently it's a Muslim tradition for certain people.

http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2011/05/02/world/asia/20110503_BINLADEN-2.html

First picture of the place they found Osama and killed him. Doesn't look quite like the resort towns here in the US, or in Europe.

Well yeah, why wouldn't he be protected? There's a shit load of people in Pakistan and Afghanistan who supported Osama and Al Qaeda in hiding out for so long.

Or it was just Obama's way of changing the course of the media from pointless stories of, "Was Barack Obama born in the US?" "Does he have a Certificate of Birth?" "What does Obama's school records hold?" "Will Donald Trump become the Republican's political nominee for 2012, with all this supposed information against Obama?" to "OSAMA BIN LADEN, man who's killed millions, and repressed more, is dead!"

Yeah, not quite a coincidence of events, more just trying to turn the tables away from bullshit events. :)

Dude,

Abbottabad is a vaction resort town that is heavily dependent on tourism. It is the Aspen or Vail Colorado of Pakistan with high income Pakistanis residing there.

Osama's compound was and is considered a mansion there. That is how it is described. I am sorry if it doesn't look like Trump's MTV Crib, Graceland or the Neverland Ranch.

And all I was getting at was that it seems like Osama had help from Pakistan's internal security forces but the US gov wants to quell the rumors.

Lastly, all I indicated was that Obama was using this moment for political gain. He probably did it after the Royal Wedding and the fiasco with Trump to garner political gain.

Most of which is not outside of the realm of reality. No conspiracy.

RadioRaheem84

3rd May 2011, 20:29

BBC news this morning compared Bin Laden to Che Guevara and not in a positive way I'm still raging about this even though it was 12 hours ago :cursing:

:cursing: :cursing: :cursing:

Beyond pissed.

Che /= Osama in the slightest.

Contra rebels the US supported = Osama.

Bin Laden was a right wing reactionary religious zealot who hated the Western world because of it's infidel ways and policies second.

How the hell can he be compared to Che?

The world rejoiced when Osama died. The world practically wept when Che died. Even Murray Rothbard wrote of Che in praise!

RadioRaheem84

3rd May 2011, 20:32

This act highlights the importance of myths and symbols in any war. For it has long been argued that whether alive or dead, Bin Laden would become the mythic poster boy of global militant Islam, rather as the Cuban revolutionary Che Guevara was for the international juvenile left, long after the CIA and its Bolivian government associates killed him in 1967.

:rolleyes:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13259869
Easy jab. Juvenile left?

Psy

3rd May 2011, 22:51

The American government is many things, stupid isn't (always) one of them. Unless they sat down and had tea and crumpets with the wanker and came to an agreement on the issue I doubt they would say hes dead unless he's really dead.

Then why didn't display his corpse? We are talking about a brutal imperialist power, the imperialist logic would be for the US to parade his course around to show what happens to those that decides to go against the US ruling class.

Dr Mindbender

3rd May 2011, 22:53

Then why didn't display his corpse? We are talking about a brutal imperialist power, the imperialist logic would be for the US to parade his course around to show what happens to those that decides to go against the US ruling class.

Just a thought, but if he was shot in the head maybe the results were considered too gruesome to be shown to the global public?

Could be that simple.

Psy

3rd May 2011, 23:33

Just a thought, but if he was shot in the head maybe the results were considered too gruesome to be shown to the global public?

Could be that simple.
Gruesom pictures of Iraqi victims of US occupation have been circulated for years. By that logic the US sees Osama Bin Laden as human (respecting his human rights in death) but not the citizens of Iraq and Afghanistan. As even if it a question of the state of the course there is no logic from a imperialist standpoint to quickly bury him as they want to ensure there is no doubt that they killed him.

Turinbaar

3rd May 2011, 23:47

When the CIA first funded the mujahideen and bin laden, they did it through the pakistani ISI, and after the soviets were expelled from afghanistan, the ISI maintained a network with bin laden, Al Qaeda and the Taliban to fill in the power vacuum, while america pretended that the outside world didn't exist during the clinton years. After 9-11, pakistan wanted to maintain imperial control of afghanistan through its proxies, but still wanted to be the recipient of imperial subsidies from the US, and at the same time the US wanted to defeat the proxy forces, while maintaining the traditional imperial relationship with Pakistan.

For ten years now the US has leaned most heavily on the state with the least interest in the death of Bin Laden and the destruction of Al Qaeda and the Taliban, and because of their unwillingness to confront the realities of the situation, which is that Pakistan was allowed to shelter Bin Laden in a Mansion that was indeed within waving distance of a major military intelligence center in a town in Pakistan exclusively populated by the honored guests of the military elite. The CIA must have known this was so for years, and the various directors from George Tenet onwards must have been scared of provoking war with a nuclear power by killing one of its top agents. The raid took place not very long after General David Petraeus, former viceroy in Iraq, was appointed chief of the CIA.

Dr Mindbender

3rd May 2011, 23:48

Gruesom pictures of Iraqi victims of US occupation have been circulated for years. By that logic the US sees Osama Bin Laden as human (respecting his human rights in death) but not the citizens of Iraq and Afghanistan. As even if it a question of the state of the course there is no logic from a imperialist standpoint to quickly bury him as they want to ensure there is no doubt that they killed him.

Some of the war pictures i have seen on rotten.com are of a calibre of gruesomeness way beyond what i have seen on TV or newspapers.

If he was shot at close range in the head with an armalite its quite imaginable that the final results are not appropriate for televised viewing.

Exposed cranial and brain matter all over front pages tends to have a negative effect on newspaper sales.

RedHal

3rd May 2011, 23:49

Maybe there was no gunfight involving the Navy Seals. Dumping his body immediately would allow the imperialists to write their own heroic narrative

Dr Mindbender

3rd May 2011, 23:55

Maybe there was no gunfight involving the Navy Seals. Dumping his body immediately would allow the imperialists to write their own heroic narrative

Still begs the question though who fired the smoking gun?

CHE with an AK

3rd May 2011, 23:57

They killed Emmanuel Goldstein ...

pgKdXYD9VBI

Psy

4th May 2011, 00:05

Some of the war pictures i have seen on rotten.com are of a calibre of gruesomeness way beyond what i have seen on TV or newspapers.

If he was shot at close range in the head with an armalite its quite imaginable that the final results are not appropriate for televised viewing.

Exposed cranial and brain matter all over front pages tends to have a negative effect on newspaper sales.

And it would be the censorship of the media, the imperialist war machine really wouldn't logically care if only outlets like Al Jazeera publish their pictures and videos.

RedHal

4th May 2011, 01:00

http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2011/images/obama_2012.gif

Forward Union

4th May 2011, 01:12

The circumstances are suspicious, but it would be embarrassing to try to fill in the gaps with nothing but our own imaginations.

I think the most significant factors, are the proximity of the Bin Laden base to a Pakistani military HQ, given the fact that the ISI (Pakistani secret police) have had close links with Bin Laden since the 80s.

And that Pakistan was not involved in the operation.

KurtFF8

4th May 2011, 04:00

Conspiracy theories are silly.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_binladen_burial_photos;_ylt=AuZ0xGyUwH3W6bfZeZh wH4Os0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNjOHNxaGpkBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTE wNTA0L3VzX2Jpbl9sYWRlbgRjY29kZQNtb3N0cG9wdWxhcgRjc G9zAzEEcG9zAzcEcHQDaG9tZV9jb2tlBHNlYwN5bl90b3Bfc3R vcnkEc2xrA3Vzc2F5c2JpbmxhZA--

KurtFF8

4th May 2011, 04:02

And if there's any "conspiracy" it was that there were elements of the Pakistani military that were protecting (or at least to some extent turning a blind eye to the presence of) bin Laden. We're already starting to see US officials discuss this (from Republican law makers to Bernie Sanders). I think that's not really a surprise though

Manifesto

4th May 2011, 04:04

From what I've seen it appears Osama is still alive reasons why I think this
1. The united states lies on a daily basis
2. They haven't released any tangible evidence of his death
3. Obama and Bush have both stated bin laden is not a real Muslim (which is true) so why would they put so much stress on him getting such a proper muslim burial
4. Formally when they killed high priced terrorist they display there corpses( ex. uday and qusay Hussein)
5. If they think there will be retaliation for bin ladens death, how would there be more retaliation for showing his death photo

Just what got from all of it
No he is definitley dead. He has just been dead for years now. He had fucking kidney disease and there is only one city with a dialysis machine in Pakistan, which is recorded that he needed to live when he was in Afghanistan and since he wasn't in that city I don't think he got that dialysis and something tells me a man isn't going to live for ten years with that. Not to mention there isn't proof for anything other than the messiah Obama proclaiming he is dead. They aren't releasing any pictures and buried at sea in 24 hours? Who is buying this shit? And to the people saying that a DNA test proves everything, ok assuming America didn't flat out lie it can easily be faked. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/18/science/18dna.html

KurtFF8

4th May 2011, 04:38

It's embarrassing to see Leftists promoting such conspiracy theories.

Bardo

4th May 2011, 04:46

Third theory: He was being aided by elements of the Pakistani army intelligence which are known to be sympathetic to Al Qaeda.

This sounds much more logical than the scenerios in the OP.

This isn't hard to believe, though. We'll be able to tell depending on whether Osama Bin Laden releases a video. Which he will certainly do if he's still alive.

There will probably be a new video either way, he doesn't have to be alive for there to be a new video release. Tupac has been dead for 15 years and he's still releasing new material. :D

Manifesto

4th May 2011, 04:55

It's embarrassing to see Leftists promoting such conspiracy theories.
You're right. I didn't look at all the damning evidence very well....what damning evidence again?

Zav

4th May 2011, 04:56

Has anyone outside the military SEEN Osama's body? Was his corpse on TV?
I'm pretty sure the answers to those are both 'no', but I could be wrong.

The U.S. has the means, motive, and opportunity to fake Osama's death, mostly involving justification of oil wars and securing future profit from such.
Al-Qaeda does as well. What better way to make the U.S. stop the hunt for Bin Laden than by making the appearance of his death?

DNA testing takes MONTHS. How the hell was DNA confirmation done in a few hours? This is real life, not CSI. How can the body's identity be confirmed in such a short amount of time? How do we know that it isn't some relative of Osama that would have similar DNA (or the SAME mitochondrial DNA if they had the same mother)? About the facial recognition, with plastic surgery or a look-alike, how hard is it to make a mangled corpse look like someone else?

Something is fishy about the situation. I don't know what precisely is going on, but I suspect that Al-Qaeda faked the death and the U.S. is exploiting it.

Summerspeaker

4th May 2011, 04:56

I'm agnostic on this as well as 9/11 conspiracy theories. We don't know until documents get released decades down the line and perhaps not even then. I can understand why it would be a big deal to folks, but I hold such a low opinion of the U.S. government already that being certain they secretly orchestrated the death of thousands of Americans for propaganda purposes doesn't really matter. Capitalism does that and more on a regular basis.

coda

4th May 2011, 05:03

<<Conspiracy theories are silly.>>

maybe so.. but it's just as silly to impulsively believe anything the US government states. The details of both the operation and his death are extremely vague to warrant suspicion. Another thing--the DNA testing surely should have/be performed by an outside source, not someone working on the CIA payroll.

Myself, I need a little bit more evidence then just the US Government's word -- that means shit to me and it should be mean shit to all leftists without supporting evidence.

Manifesto

4th May 2011, 05:16

coda

4th May 2011, 05:24

<<No it was the CIA who performed the test>>

Right, if it was the CIA? the testing should be performed by an outside source..

on another front -- in this news account, the first paragraph states there has already been a change in the "official story".

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_bin_laden

the_red_pickle

4th May 2011, 05:54

Not sure if it's been brought up already but they might be releasing photos soon, apparently they have 3 sets of photographs, including shots of a gaping bullet wound in his forehead. They are afraid of inciting extremists with the photos but the more likely scenario is exciting frat boys who'll end up jizzing in their pants over it. None the less, I'll be curious to find out, they do owe us some form of believable evidence.

bcbm

4th May 2011, 07:11

He had fucking kidney disease and there is only one city with a dialysis machine in Pakistan, which is recorded that he needed to live when he was in Afghanistan and since he wasn't in that city I don't think he got that dialysis and something tells me a man isn't going to live for ten years with that.

he was a millionaire

Then why didn't display his corpse? We are talking about a brutal imperialist power, the imperialist logic would be for the US to parade his course around to show what happens to those that decides to go against the US ruling class.

dude for someone so obsessed with war and shit you should really get a handle on how geopolitics works. obama is trying to make a break from the "yeehaw" image of america in the bush years (while doing nothing to change policy, obviously), so yeah they're not going to try and stir shit up by releasing a bunch of gruesome images, though they are saying now an image will be released.

Psy

4th May 2011, 17:09

dude for someone so obsessed with war and shit you should really get a handle on how geopolitics works. obama is trying to make a break from the "yeehaw" image of america in the bush years (while doing nothing to change policy, obviously), so yeah they're not going to try and stir shit up by releasing a bunch of gruesome images, though they are saying now an image will be released.
Public display of the corpse of enemies of the state dates back to imperialism of the Roman empire as the point is to make examples out their gruesome death.

And why would geopolitics get in the way? What imperial power would challenge the USA on the ethical treatment of Bin Laden's corpse? Even domestically Obama was in danger of being called out for ethical treatment of bin Laden regardless of how bin Ladin was treated.

Turinbaar

4th May 2011, 17:15

he was a millionaire

And a leader of a gang of psycho's. It's not at all beyond him to simply take someone's kidney and continue with the jihad gig.

Manic Impressive

4th May 2011, 17:40

It's embarrassing to see Leftists promoting such conspiracy theories.
It's also embarrassing to see Leftists blindly believing everything they are told by sources with extreme bias.

That being said I'm almost certain he is dead. Trouble is the way the US government and security forces have handled it. There was absolutely no need to dump the body so quickly or shoot him in the face (twice?) and now with the change of story about the actual operation the whole thing just stinks. I'm starting to come to the opinion that it is could be deliberate, does the US government like conspiracy theories? Is it the distraction from more important matters? Or is it when they do carry out some sort of assassination (JFK, MLK) that it just gets marked up as another wacky conspiracy theory? Or is it not intentional at all is it just incompetence?

The worrying thing is if some of the stats I've heard are correct like 1 in 4 americans believe that 9/11 was an inside job and they still don't want to rise up and take down the bourgeoisie it doesn't say much for the chances of revolution :unsure:

Martin Blank

4th May 2011, 19:24

brigadista

4th May 2011, 19:31

if only they wouldnt keep changing the story...

LuÃs Henrique

4th May 2011, 19:45

1st. Margret Thatcher in '82 with the Falklands War. Wins in a landslide in '83.

Well, she evidently could have told the Argentinians to keep the islands. And would probably loose the elections. But on the other hand, if the Argentinian gorillas hadn't had the same idea first, there would be no Falkland War, and she would probably lost the elections too.

2nd. Bush Jr. in '03 Invades Iraq, wins the '04 elections big time.From the source of all lies:

Bush's 2.5% margin of victory was the narrowest ever for a victorious incumbent President, breaking Woodrow Wilson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodrow_Wilson)'s 3.1% margin of victory against Charles Evans Hughes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Evans_Hughes) in the election of 1916 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_1916).

3rd. Obama kills Osama, wins '12 elections.Seems quite small compared to Thatcher and Bush winning actual wars over foreign countries/armies.

But... what are we doing to avoid Obama winning 2012 elections? What are we even doing to avoid having to root for him as the lesser evil against something like Palin/Rice/Huckabee/Paul?

Luís Henrique

RadioRaheem84

4th May 2011, 19:48

Obama is carrying out what the Democratic establishment has wanted the entire time for the War on Terror; for it to be an intelligence gathering police mission rather than war.

It's what Kerry was campaigning about but at the time the notion of it other than being a full war was seen as unpopular.

Obama made it popular and this may change how the War on Terror is conducted.

He is fulfilling the Bush-Lite policy the Dems wanted in the first place.

Psy

4th May 2011, 19:51

I almost hate to bring this up, but this skepticism sounds a lot like what leftists initially said about the first reports of the Holocaust in 1944-45. I can understand feeling like this may be just one more drop in a sea of lies, but sometimes the imperialists do tell the truth ... especially when it is to their advantage.

The problem is it was the interest of US imperialism to preserve bin Ladin's corpse to prove to other imperialist powers since the way the US did it not even foreign intelligent agencies can confirm the US's claims as they got rid of the key bit of evidence (the body).

I call bullshit on the idea they didn't perform a public autopsy on the corpse out of respect for his body as the US has no respect for enemies of US empire.

bcbm

4th May 2011, 20:19

Public display of the corpse of enemies of the state dates back to imperialism of the Roman empire as the point is to make examples out their gruesome death.

And why would geopolitics get in the way? What imperial power would challenge the USA on the ethical treatment of Bin Laden's corpse? Even domestically Obama was in danger of being called out for ethical treatment of bin Laden regardless of how bin Ladin was treated.

sometimes it is more politically expedient to not show a bunch of gruesome photos. imperialism doesn't always play the "brutality" card

lines

4th May 2011, 20:29

KurtFF8

4th May 2011, 21:21

It's also embarrassing to see Leftists blindly believing everything they are told by sources with extreme bias.

Oh please, I see no valid reason to believe that Osama bin Laden is still alive and that the US government would randomly pick right now to fake this operation. If you go into that kind of skepticism, you're entering the realm of 9/11 truthers, etc. And that's just absurdity.

And I also think we should be careful in trying to criticize the US operation here. The wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, etc. should be brought up at this point while we see "USA, USA, USA!" chants. But I see nothing to gain in calling for "well he should have been captured, not killed!"

You're right. I didn't look at all the damning evidence very well....what damning evidence again? Give me a break, even if evidence is released, truthers will come out and release some documentary with snazzy music in the background about how it's all fake. This isn't about whether there's "good evidence" or not, but is about how some folks will deny anything the US government says because they assume there's some grand conspiracy going on (not from a position of a concrete analysis of situations)

Manic Impressive

4th May 2011, 21:52

Oh please, I see no valid reason to believe that Osama bin Laden is still alive and that the US government would randomly pick right now to fake this operation. If you go into that kind of skepticism, you're entering the realm of 9/11 truthers, etc. And that's just absurdity.
No neither do I. I said I think he's dead but that doesn't mean I accept and even worse actually defend the accounts given by the government. The main point of my post was to ask why the government has left the door open for conspiracy theories. Is it innocent incompetence or is there an actual motive for handling it this badly.

But I see nothing to gain in calling for "well he should have been captured, not killed!"
ok hows about this scenario they capture him transport him to guantanamo show everyone they've got him hold the trial in secret find him guilty and execute him. Then all conspiracy theories hold absolutely no merit. It seems to me that they've left every option open for conspiracy theories.

Although on a side note it's interesting to see Obama saying no photo will be released and the CIA saying that they will be releasing a photo. At least that's what the BBC were reporting this morning.

Psy

4th May 2011, 22:04

Oh please, I see no valid reason to believe that Osama bin Laden is still alive and that the US government would randomly pick right now to fake this operation. If you go into that kind of skepticism, you're entering the realm of 9/11 truthers, etc. And that's just absurdity.

How about it being a half-truth for example they let him escape due to a SNAFU and decided to just pretend they got him assuming Bin Laden wouldn't surface again anyway. Of how about due to SNAFU they can't identity the corpses?

If it went down as US officials claim this is the first time in decades the US military bureaucracy was able to get something done without the opportunists bureaucrats in the military high command showing off their collective incompetence.

sometimes it is more politically expedient to not show a bunch of gruesome photos. imperialism doesn't always play the "brutality" card

What would be the point for the US not play the brutality card this time around?

SuicidalTendencies

4th May 2011, 22:07

I do personally doubt any validity of the theories sported by conspiracy-nuts. There are although some questions about what will happen next. What will actually change now, should Osama be dead? The death of one person will not remove the contradictions that are the cause of the conflict. The US still do not have that good of a control of Afghanistan or Iraq, so a withdrawal of US troops would most likely still not be in the interest of the US capital.

The way I see it, though, this occurence could very well be used by the grand capital to get their hands further into Pakistan, since the government there only a short while ago adopted a less than friendly tone towards the US for their activity in the country. Speculations run wild in the media about whether the Pakistani were consciously sheltering Bin Laden, and such things could very well be used by the capital to pu pressure on the Pakistani government.

The troops are already in a neighbouring country, moving in on Pakistan would be much more cost-efficient than tackling some other countries they might want to get into tackling. If the harsch tone against the US taken by the Pakistani government over the last period is an indication of an opposition towards imperialism, the capital is probably not happy with the way things are going over there right now, and a threat of an invasion might put down any such sentiments from the Pakistani government and allow the US to attack the Afghan opposition hiding out in the country, even if a full scale invasion isn't planned.

RadioRaheem84

4th May 2011, 22:22

One does have to wonder why the US govt. is changing their story about the raid.

Is to ward off criticism about the legality of the mission?

Dr Mindbender

4th May 2011, 22:35

apparently he leaves behind 24 children (one of which being a 12 year old girl who witnessed the shooting).

I reckon the US has multiplied its problem by at least 24.

chegitz guevara

4th May 2011, 22:40

Bush I was seen as a shoe-in after Gulf War I. He was not returned to office. Lots can happen between now and next November, which makes it a particularly stupid move to kill him now, if they'd been sitting around waiting.

My understanding, perhaps I'm wrong, is that DNA takes longer to identify. Maybe there are advances of which I'm not aware that allow near instantaneous DNA matching.

It's very odd that they dumped the body at sea, and given all the other offensive shit they've done to suspected terrorists. I don't easily believe they buried him at sea out of respect ... for a mass murderer. Especially given his code name was Geronimo. Which should offend all of us.

It's almost as if they are daring us to start engaging in conspiracy theories.

RadioRaheem84

4th May 2011, 22:59

The media addressed the DNA claim, I think by saying that DNA takes a while because there is a long line to get DNA testing, but since it was Osama's, the DNA went right to the front of the line and therefore they were able to match in in hours.

Dr Mindbender

4th May 2011, 23:00

My understanding, perhaps I'm wrong, is that DNA takes longer to identify. Maybe there are advances of which I'm not aware that allow near instantaneous DNA matching.

Obviously you havent seen the Jeremy Kyle show (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wr-oAL958M).

Martin Blank

4th May 2011, 23:31

The problem is it was the interest of US imperialism to preserve bin Ladin's corpse to prove to other imperialist powers since the way the US did it not even foreign intelligent agencies can confirm the US's claims as they got rid of the key bit of evidence (the body).

I call bullshit on the idea they didn't perform a public autopsy on the corpse out of respect for his body as the US has no respect for enemies of US empire.

Given that both an autopsy and/or preservation of the body would cause an explosion among Muslims, including among many of those who wouldn't otherwise have any sympathy toward Bin Laden or the Salafi sect in general, it's highly unlikely they would have done either. It is simply not to Washington's advantage to do something like that. Moral questions of "respect" are meaningless; it is the cold arithmetic of politics and war that counts here.

WHat did leftists say, do you have any links?

Not sure how much of this information has made it online, simply because I've never actually looked on the Internet to see. I'm sure if you search around you'll find some relevant articles and documents.

Bush I was seen as a shoe-in after Gulf War I. He was not returned to office. Lots can happen between now and next November, which makes it a particularly stupid move to kill him now, if they'd been sitting around waiting.

Exactly. If they had been saving this for some "October surprise", then they would have waited. The only reason to do it now was because OBL was there, and Obama wanted him taken out. If there was a conspiracy that surrounded this action, the timing and circumstances would be too clean and appropriate.

My understanding, perhaps I'm wrong, is that DNA takes longer to identify. Maybe there are advances of which I'm not aware that allow near instantaneous DNA matching.

Actually, they can do a DNA test in a short period of time, as long as there is a drop-everything-and-do-this priority to it, which I imagine there was. A preliminary result under such conditions can be given in a matter of a few hours; the full result would take about 24 hours ... which is, incidentally, about how long it took for Washington to make that definitive announcement.

It's very odd that they dumped the body at sea, and given all the other offensive shit they've done to suspected terrorists. I don't easily believe they buried him at sea out of respect ... for a mass murderer. Especially given his code name was Geronimo. Which should offend all of us.

They dropped him into the sea to avoid the possibility of there being made a shrine to him. Plus, no country wanted his remains. They may have done the sea "burial" according to Muslim tradition, but, again, it was not really done out of any kind of moralistic "respect".

It's almost as if they are daring us to start engaging in conspiracy theories.

Of course! They'd love to have us look like a bunch of batshit-insane lunatics right now, at a time when self-described socialists and communists are just beginning to gain a hearing among masses of workers as a result of the austerity and unionbusting attacks. The best way to neutralize us is to get us to do it to ourselves. Food for thought.

Psy

5th May 2011, 01:17

Given that both an autopsy and/or preservation of the body would cause an explosion among Muslims, including among many of those who wouldn't otherwise have any sympathy toward Bin Laden or the Salafi sect in general, it's highly unlikely they would have done either. It is simply not to Washington's advantage to do something like that. Moral questions of "respect" are meaningless; it is the cold arithmetic of politics and war that counts here.

More then the brutal occupation Afghanistan and Iraq? I doubt bin Laden could have become a martyr due to the fact that what ever they did to bin Laden would be overshadowed by the war crimes committed by the US occupation force. For the Muslims that aren't angry of US forces shooting up ambulances in Iraq then there is nothing the US could do to bin Laden's corpse that can make them angry.

As for what the advantage it would have been to Washington, well to show it military forces is not tired down by a inept bureaucracy that corruption has seriously hampered the occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq. Remember the US military has been trying to get rid of its public image of being totally corrupt and inept since the Vietnam war.

Manic Impressive

5th May 2011, 09:47

Given that both an autopsy and/or preservation of the body would cause an explosion among Muslims, including among many of those who wouldn't otherwise have any sympathy toward Bin Laden or the Salafi sect in general, it's highly unlikely they would have done either. It is simply not to Washington's advantage to do something like that. Moral questions of "respect" are meaningless; it is the cold arithmetic of politics and war that counts here. Seeing as it's mainly Muslims asking for proof I think they'd have been alright. They had started showing the faked death photo on Pakistani tv.

Not sure how much of this information has made it online, simply because I've never actually looked on the Internet to see. I'm sure if you search around you'll find some relevant articles and documents.That's a shame since you know specifically what you were talking about and there was a number of people interested in what you were trying to say.

Actually, they can do a DNA test in a short period of time, as long as there is a drop-everything-and-do-this priority to it, which I imagine there was. A preliminary result under such conditions can be given in a matter of a few hours; the full result would take about 24 hours ... which is, incidentally, about how long it took for Washington to make that definitive announcement.
Actually the operation was carried out in the early hours of 2nd of May and was announced a couple of hours later while it was still May 1st EST. So no they couldn't have done the DNA test before the announcement. Reports that the body had been or was going to be dumped came out about 4 or 5 hours later.

Sasha

5th May 2011, 11:49

I'm with john steward on this, if people are willing to scream abuse at and get physical with an former astronout because he supposedly faked his walking on the moon than there is no amount of evidence that will ever convince the crazies that something happend the way they happend. And its sad some here are into this tinfoil head stuff.
That said, Im willing to bet the administration will pretend to keep the moral highground for a while more and than will either dramatically cave to pressure (like they did with the birther issue which was an well executed utter destruction of trumps shot at the elections) or the photos will be conveniently leaked.

stuckinarut

5th May 2011, 12:54

The thing about the (supposed) extra-legal assassination of UbL is that it has already happened a number of times. Now, lets take the official story and see where the problems lie.

UbL was a known CIA operative during the 80's when the US was "fighting" the Soviets by arming/supplying the then Mujahideen. We trained, armed and employed UbL and other natives to go and resist the "Communist takeover" of Afghanistan.

Both Bill Clinton, and GW Bush (yeehaw) were said to have known, or surrounded the "terrorist" at different times during their time in office, and then let him go.

After 9/11, we saw alot of flag waving, and the media/gov. definitely painted a picture where UbL was to blame. But, there were NEVER any charges placed against the man. Not in NY superior, not in NY state, not even in the ICC where international crimes cases usually end up. UbL was NEVER meant to see a trial, and this fact alone highlights the illigitimacy with which the US designs and implements their foreign policy. They are above the law.

As for the supposed assassination, I have yet to be shown a SINGLE piece of evidence that would point me to the fact that the claims of the President are true. All claims require evidence. Whether it is Unicorns or extra-judicial summary execution of un-armed individuals in front of their children, ALL claims require evidence. Now that the "pictures" are "too gorry" for US citizens to see, we will all blindly accept the Pres.' story.

Too bad the official story is just as bad as the crime itself. Invading another country against the consent (or without informing them) with the intentions of carrying our military operations is an ACT of WAR.

Too bad that doesn't make for good copy.

bcbm

5th May 2011, 17:39

I have yet to be shown a SINGLE piece of evidence

i'm sure the govt will get right on it

Martin Blank

5th May 2011, 18:30

More then the brutal occupation Afghanistan and Iraq? I doubt bin Laden could have become a martyr due to the fact that what ever they did to bin Laden would be overshadowed by the war crimes committed by the US occupation force. For the Muslims that aren't angry of US forces shooting up ambulances in Iraq then there is nothing the US could do to bin Laden's corpse that can make them angry.

There is something to be said for the straw that broke the camel's back, as the saying goes. Mistreatment of a Muslim's body in death can have that effect, since it would be seen as an affront to all Muslims -- as opposed to the occupations, which are not. As brutal and barbaric as the occupations have been, there is still an observed measure of separation (an "us and them" element) that has resulted from a partially successful propaganda drive by Washington.

As for what the advantage it would have been to Washington, well to show it military forces is not tired down by a inept bureaucracy that corruption has seriously hampered the occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq. Remember the US military has been trying to get rid of its public image of being totally corrupt and inept since the Vietnam war.

The whole "Vietnam syndrome" nonsense is propaganda for public consumption; it was a way to rally Americans around the military in a time of uncertainty. It never had a real bearing on the morale of the military -- especially not since the 1980s. Moreover, the military has been able to put the corruption and ineptitude in Iraq and Afghanistan on the shoulders of the private contractors. In other words, the White House and Pentagon don't really doesn't feel a need to prove to themselves that they can do something.

Seeing as it's mainly Muslims asking for proof I think they'd have been alright. They had started showing the faked death photo on Pakistani tv.

That may have been asking for proof, but they wouldn't want to see the actual corpse. I have a sense that, sometime in the near future, we'll end up seeing the photos of OBL's corpse -- sometime when it won't be considered a measure of gloating by Washington. (Sometimes feigning humility brings advantages to the table all their own.)

That's a shame since you know specifically what you were talking about and there was a number of people interested in what you were trying to say.

Obviously, it's something of a touchy subject for the organizations and individuals who were a part of that debate (mostly Trotskyist and Left Communist groups; the "official Communists" and Social Democrats echoed the views of the UN "Allies", the Nuremburg Trial documents, etc.), so there's not a lot of rush to get these things online. Plus, a lot of the debate was internal, meaning the documents were never meant to be public in the first place. (I've read the American SWP's Internal Bulletins from the 1940s, which is where I first found this out.) There are some articles on the MIA written from that period, where you get a sense that there is skepticism about the numbers (it's not until later in 1945 and into 1946 that you begin to see references to the 6 million figure; before that, it's several hundred thousand to, at most, 3 million, and it is implied it was not conscious mass extermination, but death through hard labor).

There is also an article on the MIA, attributed to Bordiga (no one's really sure who wrote it, but it ran in the journal of the French Bordigists in 1960), called, "Auschwitz, or the Great Alibi", which is very controversial and seen by many as a lingering expression of the skepticism on the far left over the Holocaust. It is an excruciating article to read, honestly. I won't post a link to it because I'm not wanting to toss a hand grenade into the middle of this hornet's nest. But you can go to the MIA's Bordiga archive and read it.

Actually the operation was carried out in the early hours of 2nd of May and was announced a couple of hours later while it was still May 1st EST. So no they couldn't have done the DNA test before the announcement. Reports that the body had been or was going to be dumped came out about 4 or 5 hours later.

The raid took place at 1:30 a.m. on May 2 in Abbottabad -- about 4:30 p.m. on May 1 for us. It was over in about 20 minutes (~4:50 p.m. for us). They were on the USS Carl Vinson within 3 hours (~8 p.m. for us). A preliminary DNA test would take no more than 3 hours (~11 p.m. for us), during which time they would have also prepared the body and conducted the drop into the northern Arabian Sea. That would also explain why there was about an hour between when the networks were first interrupted (~10:30 p.m. for us) and when Obama began to speak.

KurtFF8

5th May 2011, 19:31

UbL was a known CIA operative during the 80's when the US was "fighting" the Soviets by arming/supplying the then Mujahideen. We trained, armed and employed UbL and other natives to go and resist the "Communist takeover" of Afghanistan.

This isn't actually true. He worked with the Mujahadeen which had CIA ties, but the group he went to Afghanistan with didn't itself have CIA ties.

This is a major myth that many repeat (even Cubadebate claimed this the other day)

stuckinarut

5th May 2011, 20:07

As his unclassified CIA biography states, bin Laden left Saudi Arabia to fight the Soviet army in Afghanistan after Moscow’s invasion in 1979. By 1984, he was running a front organization known as Maktab al-Khidamar - the MAK - which funneled money, arms and fighters from the outside world into the Afghan war.
What the CIA bio conveniently fails to specify (in its unclassified form, at least) is that the MAK was nurtured by Pakistan’s state security services, the Inter-Services Intelligence agency, or ISI, the CIA’s primary conduit for conducting the covert war against Moscow’s occupation.

While the support for the MAK was not backed directly by the US gov., INDIRECTLY, it was. To think that this was not known by our intelligence would be naive.

Psy

5th May 2011, 22:53

There is something to be said for the straw that broke the camel's back, as the saying goes. Mistreatment of a Muslim's body in death can have that effect, since it would be seen as an affront to all Muslims -- as opposed to the occupations, which are not. As brutal and barbaric as the occupations have been, there is still an observed measure of separation (an "us and them" element) that has resulted from a partially successful propaganda drive by Washington.

I don't see it, revolutionary movements have strung up the corpses of fascists to the cheering of the masses for example when the Italian uprising publicly executed Benito Mussolini by firing squad and strung up his corpse in public on meat hooks after the public beat and urinated on the corpse.

The whole "Vietnam syndrome" nonsense is propaganda for public consumption; it was a way to rally Americans around the military in a time of uncertainty. It never had a real bearing on the morale of the military -- especially not since the 1980s.

It is not totally nonsense, to insiders Vietnam syndrome is the cancer of bureaucratic careerism that has grown by leaps and bounds since the Vietnam war, resulting a military bureaucracy that only cares about making itself rich and has little interest in perfoming its imperialist duty efficiently.

Moreover, the military has been able to put the corruption and ineptitude in Iraq and Afghanistan on the shoulders of the private contractors. In other words, the White House and Pentagon don't really doesn't feel a need to prove to themselves that they can do something.

Those private contractors are using the US military brand image, also privatization has only accelerated corruption in the US military as it streamlines the embezzlement process.