Your Opinion on the Israeli Arab Palestinian conflick

[tradeunionsupporter]

Is the Israeli Arab Palestinian conflict a ethnic or religious conflict in your opinion ? Both Jews and Arabs are ethnic groups right the Nazis felt that the Jews were a race. There are Palestinian and Arab Christians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_people

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Christians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Christians

[#FF0000]

Generally people around here side with the Palestinians.

[The Man]

It's a mix of both. Religious on the Zionist side, claiming 'This is our land, some book said so'.. For the Palestinians in could be an ethnic thing, due to the Zionists invading their land, killing them, and renaming all of their towns and cities.

[Lt. Ferret]

one single secular state. of whatever political flavor they want to argue over and agree to.

[alegab]

A federal multi-religious country, with the west bank and Gaza as the Arab part, Israel as the (ethnically) jewish sector and the most controversial zone, the one around Jerusalem as another state of the federation, all the states being secular and non-discriminatory . A kind of well-administered Bosnia
And why not calling it "(Federal) State of Jerusalem", or something like that, instead of the extremely loaded present names?

[Communist Guy]

Free Palestine!

[graffic]

For the Palestinians in could be an ethnic thing, due to the Zionists invading their land, killing them, and renaming all of their towns and cities.

By "them" and "their" you mean the original inhabitants back in 1948 who are no longer around or very old. Most of the Zionists who moved to Palestine were pretty progressive and wanted to work with local Arabs peacefully but surrounding Arab countries declared war on the Jewish state as soon as it was formed. Israel's been fighting for its existence ever since and the anti-Zionists still fantasize that the Jews will go back to Europe, which isn't going to happen. Zionists became antagonistic towards Arabs because pan-Arabism completely rejected Israel. The inhabitants have a case against being cleansed but its important to remember that many Zionists wanted to work with the local Arab population peacefully which would have lead to a peaceful, prosperous Israel in which Arabs and Jews live side by side in peace albeit in a Jewish state with to an extent a Jewish character (holidays, remembrance day etc) but Arabs or other minorities have equal rights.

When you consider the reality of the holocaust and the fact that palestine was essentially a strip of nothing before israel there is no real justification for hatred of Zionism and Jews except if you are religious, like muslims for example.

[Che a chara]

By "them" and "their" you mean the original inhabitants back in 1948 who are no longer around or very old. Most of the Zionists who moved to Palestine were pretty progressive and wanted to work with local Arabs peacefully but surrounding Arab countries declared war on the Jewish state as soon as it was formed. Israel's been fighting for its existence ever since and the anti-Zionists still fantasize that the Jews will go back to Europe, which isn't going to happen. Zionists became antagonistic towards Arabs because pan-Arabism completely rejected Israel. The inhabitants have a case against being cleansed but its important to remember that many Zionists wanted to work with the local Arab population peacefully which would have lead to a peaceful, prosperous Israel in which Arabs and Jews live side by side in peace albeit in a Jewish state with to an extent a Jewish character (holidays, remembrance day etc) but Arabs or other minorities have equal rights.

Norman Finklestein was spot on when he said that you don't come to another country with a gun in one hand and a bible in the other wanting peace. You come with a gun with the sole intention of taking by force what is not yours, i.e, land owned by the natives.

Israel's creation was totally provocative, undemocratic and based on a biased, supremacist and racist British Government implemented League of Nations mandate which denied rights for the native Arabs in their own land and gave entitlements and rights for the Jewish settlers at the expense of the Palestinian natives, which made them subservient to the mandate.

Thank fuck that mandate has since been terminated and now replaced by the U.N, but plenty of Zionists still see and uphold the LoN as legitimate which once again shows their true intentions and agenda.

If you are unfamiliar with the mandate, have a read through the 'progressive, un-antagonistic, and peaceful' legislation :lol:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Palestine_Mandate


When you consider the reality of the holocaust and the fact that palestine was essentially a strip of nothing before israel there is no real justification for hatred of Zionism and Jews except if you are religious, like muslims for example.

I wondered when a zionist apologist would come along and try to play the anti-semite card. :rolleyes:

[masty]

By "them" and "their" you mean the original inhabitants back in 1948 who are no longer around or very old. Most of the Zionists who moved to Palestine were pretty progressive and wanted to work with local Arabs peacefully but surrounding Arab countries declared war on the Jewish state as soon as it was formed. Israel's been fighting for its existence ever since and the anti-Zionists still fantasize that the Jews will go back to Europe, which isn't going to happen. Zionists became antagonistic towards Arabs because pan-Arabism completely rejected Israel. The inhabitants have a case against being cleansed but its important to remember that many Zionists wanted to work with the local Arab population peacefully which would have lead to a peaceful, prosperous Israel in which Arabs and Jews live side by side in peace albeit in a Jewish state with to an extent a Jewish character (holidays, remembrance day etc) but Arabs or other minorities have equal rights.

When you consider the reality of the holocaust and the fact that palestine was essentially a strip of nothing before israel there is no real justification for hatred of Zionism and Jews except if you are religious, like muslims for example.
"the inhabitants have a case against being cleansed"

[Princess Luna]

By "them" and "their" you mean the original inhabitants back in 1948 who are no longer around or very old. Most of the Zionists who moved to Palestine were pretty progressive and wanted to work with local Arabs peacefully but surrounding Arab countries declared war on the Jewish state as soon as it was formed. Israel's been fighting for its existence ever since and the anti-Zionists still fantasize that the Jews will go back to Europe, which isn't going to happen. Zionists became antagonistic towards Arabs because pan-Arabism completely rejected Israel. The inhabitants have a case against being cleansed but its important to remember that many Zionists wanted to work with the local Arab population peacefully which would have lead to a peaceful, prosperous Israel in which Arabs and Jews live side by side in peace albeit in a Jewish state with to an extent a Jewish character (holidays, remembrance day etc) but Arabs or other minorities have equal rights.

When you consider the reality of the holocaust and the fact that palestine was essentially a strip of nothing before israel there is no real justification for hatred of Zionism and Jews except if you are religious, like muslims for example.
If they had a of carved a chunk out of Germany after WW2, it would have made sense. But the truth is the people who pushed the creation of Israel didn't give a shit about "establishing a Jewish homeland" they just wanted a stable western ally in the middle east, because while dictators can be damn handy, they do have a bad habit of being over-thrown. Also i don't give a shit if the original Zionists were all about puppies,hugs and rainbows thats not how it turned out so its irrelevant.

[danyboy27]

With great power come great resposability, Israel should just back off and really work something out with the palestinians.

They should stop the settlement and work out a final deal for a definitive border and pay up for the shit they broke.

Definitive border, no settler and a five year plan to reconstruct palestine.

In return, the palestinian authorites would make their best effort to avoid violence toward the israeli population and would hire 10 big dudes to fix the israeli roofs that have been damaged by the rocket attack comitted by the palestinian militants.

Sound good to me.
Of course the ideal solution would be the unification of both side, but i dont have much illusion on this.

[agnixie]

Largely religious turned into ethnic - it's hard to pin down an ethnicity on the palestinians since if you go back just one or two centuries ago, half of them are unassimilated mizrahi and sephardi jews and samaritans (i.e. jews :p ), the other half recently arrived bedouins and arabized native, greek and italian (crusader settler) christians.

Also the british mandate funded the ancestors of Hamas handsomely for the same reason they tried all they could to ban confirmed left-wing jews - they wanted to maintain reactionary power structures over fears of communist revolution. They also worried a lot about jewish units of the polish army in exile remaining behind when one of their divisions got stationed there in 1943. The british were pretty much "do one thing, say another" as Palestine was mostly mishandled not in favor of the zionists (they also fought against Lehi and Irgun, although admittedly they represent right wing, proto-fascist splinter groups from the haganah ), but in favor of continued british occupation.

The fact that both sides are still dying over british colonial intrigues is probably the greater tragedy.

[Jazzratt]

Generally people around here side with the Palestinians. True. A lot of positions taken here, though, could be better described as opposing Israel.

[Metacomet]

one single secular state. of whatever political flavor they want to argue over and agree to.


Seconded. Yes, I do think Jews need somewhere that is safe. But yes, Palestinians have rights to that land as well. It is not simple. However I do think that the two together could form a great place.

[graffic]

Norman Finklestein was spot on when he said that you don't come to another country with a gun in one hand and a bible in the other wanting peace. You come with a gun with the sole intention of taking by force what is not yours, i.e, land owned by the natives.

Israel's creation was totally provocative, undemocratic and based on a biased, supremacist and racist British Government implemented League of Nations mandate which denied rights for the native Arabs in their own land and gave entitlements and rights for the Jewish settlers at the expense of the Palestinian natives, which made them subservient to the mandate.

Thank fuck that mandate has since been terminated and now replaced by the U.N, but plenty of Zionists still see and uphold the LoN as legitimate which once again shows their true intentions and agenda.

If you are unfamiliar with the mandate, have a read through the 'progressive, un-antagonistic, and peaceful' legislation :lol:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Palestine_Mandate



I wondered when a zionist apologist would come along and try to play the anti-semite card. :rolleyes:


You are slandering the whole of Zionism with a fringe religious movement that was, and still is, a minority that unfortunately has influence on the Zionist movement to an extent. But that is nothing compared to the influence fundamentalist religion has on the Arab world. If you look at the Israeli deceleration of independence it is far from undemocratic. The whole point of Zionism was to revive secular hebrew culture and provide Jews with a safe place to live.

[Thirsty Crow]

You are slandering the whole of Zionism with a fringe religious movement that was, and still is, a minority that unfortunately has influence on the Zionist movement to an extent. But that is nothing compared to the influence fundamentalist religion has on the Arab world. If you look at the Israeli deceleration of independence it is far from undemocratic. The whole point of Zionism was to revive secular hebrew culture and provide Jews with a safe place to live.
Based on a settler colonial project (since the place itself was occupied). Hey, but who am I to smear this particular humanitarian campaing of state building?

[danyboy27]

Seconded. Yes, I do think Jews need somewhere that is safe. But yes, Palestinians have rights to that land as well. It is not simple. However I do think that the two together could form a great place.

Well, it is quite simple, those who break stuff should repair it, no matter what happen next the israeli have the responsability to rebuilt Palestine and the palestinian have the responsability to rebuild what they have destroyed in israel.

It would be a good start for a reconciliation process.

and also the double standard should cease, either both can come and go has they please in both territories, or they cant.

if israel allow people to settle on palestinian land, well then it would be only fair to give a free pass to all palestinian who want to come and go inside israel without being searched or face an enormous fence, and they should be able to have free land in israeli soild to settle has well.

Its not complicated, Its about being coherent and logical with eachother.

Perhaps if one day the U.S become totally broke, the dialogue will restart.

[Viet Minh]

Is the Israeli Arab Palestinian conflict a ethnic or religious conflict in your opinion ? Both Jews and Arabs are ethnic groups right the Nazis felt that the Jews were a race. There are Palestinian and Arab Christians.


On the Jewish side there are Zionists, who want a 'Jewish State', on the other Hamas are undoubtedly a Muslim group who want some form of Islamic-based law. But then there are jews who support Palestine, and Muslims who support Israel, so its not quite as simple as a religious war, especially when you take into account the Christians supporting either side. The ethnic division isn't quite so simple either, there are many different groups of jews, mizrahi, ashkenazi, sephardi etc, from as far afield as China and the US. On the other side there are Bedouin, Arabs, Druze, Chrstians, its hard to define them simply as one ethnic grouping, they probably have ancestors from Greece, Turkey (Ottoman Empire).

[freepalestine]

By "them" and "their" you mean the original inhabitants back in 1948 who are no longer around or very old. Most of the Zionists who moved to Palestine were pretty progressive and wanted to work with local Arabs peacefully but surrounding Arab countries declared war on the Jewish state as soon as it was formed. Israel's been fighting for its existence ever since and the anti-Zionists still fantasize that the Jews will go back to Europe, which isn't going to happen. Zionists became antagonistic towards Arabs because pan-Arabism completely rejected Israel. The inhabitants have a case against being cleansed but its important to remember that many Zionists wanted to work with the local Arab population peacefully which would have lead to a peaceful, prosperous Israel in which Arabs and Jews live side by side in peace albeit in a Jewish state with to an extent a Jewish character (holidays, remembrance day etc) but Arabs or other minorities have equal rights.

.it's a shame you actually believe all that.
also the arab armies yes the "5 great arab armies that attacked the fledgling state of isreal" consisted of 30,000 troops(mostly egyptian,syrian and iraqi)-the zionist terrorist army consisted of 35,000.
although the main point is that the arab armies didn't enter the zionist controlled sector of palestine given by the u.n. ,only to the 47%of palestine (given by the u.n. to the palestinians), to try protect the palestinians in that area.as for the 51% native population within the areas of palestine given by the u.n. to the zionists - no such luck - as plan dalet was already in affect.terrible

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

"I call on Abu Mazen (Abbas) to completely cancel the agreement with Hamas and to choose the path to peace with Israel," Netanyahu said during a meeting with Tony Blair, the former British prime minister, in Jerusalem.


http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/05/201153111651752111.html

The new regime in egypt has done more for the palestinians than anything else in recent memory.

[agnixie]

i wouldnt expect a fascistzionist to say all that.

That would be because I'm not. :rolleyes:

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

In the mid-1980s, members of the Israeli government sought to weaken the Palestinian Liberation Organization by strengthening Islamists who would go on to form Hamas, a strategy that leading Israeli defense officials have since acknowledged was a mistake.

So was the closing of Gaza’s borders. Five years of isolation have not dislodged Hamas, revived the peace process, strengthened Fatah or ensured Israel’s security. Most of the Gaza Strip’s imports now pass largely unimpeded through tunnels that are wide enough to carry cattle, cars, anti-tank missiles and foreign radicals.

Nor has isolating Hamas persuaded most Palestinians to embrace the alternative model in the West Bank, where undemocratic practices remain common, local leaders lack popular legitimacy, and tight security coordination with Israel is routinely denounced.

Instead, blockading Gaza and isolating Hamas have given rhetorical strength to militants who argue that the Islamist movement has erred by holding its fire against Israel and failing to impose Islamic law. As a result, Hamas is slowly losing members to more radical groups.

On Monday, Hamas self-defeatingly sought to bolster its flagging Islamist credentials by mourning the death of Osama bin Laden and praising him as an Arab holy warrior — just days after Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu ominously warned (http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/netanyahu-presses-for-u-s-action-over-fatah-hamas-deal-1.358706) that “Israel would not recognize any government in the world that included members from Al Qaeda.”

In reality, the likelihood of such a government is slight, but if Israel continues to oppose Palestinian reconciliation, Mr. Netanyahu’s nightmare may become less of a fantasy.

Repeating the mistakes of the past will only strengthen Hamas’s Salafi jihadi challengers, who proliferated the last time Palestinians were penalized for their votes and could one day pose an even greater threat to Israel.


Hurting Moderates, Helping Militants (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/05/opinion/05Thrall.html?hp=&pagewanted=print)

Sums up my opinion on the issue quite well I find.

[graffic]

Largely religious turned into ethnic - it's hard to pin down an ethnicity on the palestinians since if you go back just one or two centuries ago, half of them are unassimilated mizrahi and sephardi jews and samaritans (i.e. jews :p ), the other half recently arrived bedouins and arabized native, greek and italian (crusader settler) christians.


The overwhelming majority of Palestinians are native Arabs originally from Saudi Arabia or the "Arabian peninsular". The Christian and Druze with Spanish/Greek crusader roots are a minority.


it's a shame you actually believe all that.

The simple fact remains you can't say anything to prove it wrong. You shouldn't believe all the PLO propaganda bullshit at first sight

[hatzel]

@graffic: dubbelyooteeyeff? :confused:

[agnixie]

The overwhelming majority of Palestinians are native Arabs originally from Saudi Arabia or the "Arabian peninsular". The Christian and Druze with Spanish/Greek crusader roots are a minority.



The simple fact remains you can't say anything to prove it wrong. You shouldn't believe all the PLO propaganda bullshit at first sight


You can actually distinguish them by dialect, as bedouin arabic and palestinian arabic are different, and the latter has a very noticeable aramaic substrate. Playing into the divide et impera game of the british was a massive fail for everyone involved.

I'll also note that the Palestinian mandate had about a million inhabitants in 1921. Most of the bedouins lived in what is today Jordan (which was founded as a bedouin majority state).

[CHEtheLIBERATOR]

ITS NEITHER ETHNIC NOR RELIGIOUS ITS IMPERIALIST!!!
The israelies were welcomed into the country by the Palestinians. They then militarized and rapidly stole territory. ISRAEL IS A TERRORIST and a PIRATE STATE that is nothing but satellite state for the U.S and U.K's IMPERIALIST war on the middle east and Islam.

VIVA PALESTINE!! PATRIA O MUERTA!!! DEATH TO ISRAEL!!

[agnixie]

ITS NEITHER ETHNIC NOR RELIGIOUS ITS IMPERIALIST!!!
The israelies were welcomed into the country by the Palestinians. They then militarized and rapidly stole territory. ISRAEL IS A TERRORIST and a PIRATE STATE that is nothing but satellite state for the U.S and U.K's IMPERIALIST war on the middle east and Islam.

VIVA PALESTINE!! PATRIA O MUERTA!!! DEATH TO ISRAEL!!

Are you a troll, or just barely literate?

[Dr Mindbender]

The whole point of Zionism was to revive secular hebrew culture and provide Jews with a safe place to live.

Well they fucked up on that front.

If i was a jew who wanted to feel safe i'd probably try and get as far away from the middle east as i could.

[freepalestine]

The overwhelming majority of Palestinians are native Arabs originally from Saudi Arabia or the "Arabian peninsular". The Christian and Druze with Spanish/Greek crusader roots are a minority.
lol.you know that is an absolute lie.i guess you'll say nobody was in palestine until the zionist settlers went to palestine.
also what you just said is usually followed by other racist zionist hyperbole.





The simple fact remains you can't say anything to prove it wrong. ....no i just stated facts.it's well documented grafic.read up on it.i'll leave it there .
with the other historical inaccuracys ........

[ComradeMan]

ITS NEITHER ETHNIC NOR RELIGIOUS ITS IMPERIALIST!!!
The israelies were welcomed into the country by the Palestinians. They then militarized and rapidly stole territory. ISRAEL IS A TERRORIST and a PIRATE STATE that is nothing but satellite state for the U.S and U.K's IMPERIALIST war on the middle east and Islam.

VIVA PALESTINE!! PATRIA O MUERTA!!! DEATH TO ISRAEL!!


"The first recorded Arab attack on Jews in what would become Israel took place in Petah Tikva in 1886.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petah_Tikva#cite_note-2) Petah Tikva was also the scene of Arab rioting in May 1921, which left four Jews dead"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petah_Tikva#History

[Thirsty Crow]

"The first recorded Arab attack on Jews in what would become Israel took place in Petah Tikva in 1886.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petah_Tikva#cite_note-2) Petah Tikva was also the scene of Arab rioting in May 1921, which left four Jews dead"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petah_Tikva#History
Well, wikipedia does not provide any historical background which could shed some further light on the conflict in its very beginnings. It links to the Jewish Agency for Israel and there aren't any useful information there.
I cannot see what did you indent to communicate by posting this link. Maybe that there were prior conflicts to the creation of Israel? Sure, I don't think anyone would disregard that. But even though CHE is a little obnoxious in his/her attitude, it is a basic fact that Israeli settler expansionism functions within the overall framework of imperialism.

Oh yeah, now I see it. You're referring to the statement that Israelis were welcomed by the Palestinians.
I don't think its useful to consider this conflict in such terms (outright welcome - outright hositility etc.).

[Sword and Shield]

It's a mix of both. Religious on the Zionist side, claiming 'This is our land, some book said so'.. For the Palestinians in could be an ethnic thing, due to the Zionists invading their land, killing them, and renaming all of their towns and cities.

This was the first post that actually answered his question...

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

If i was a jew who wanted to feel safe i'd probably try and get as far away from the middle east as i could.

If I was an Irishman I would have been in the USA a century ago.

Moving on, the ethnic roots of the Palestinians is inconsequential at this point. This is one of the things that truly pisses me off when zionists bring it up, that "there were no palestinian people."

You're right, there wasn't. That group was created by shared suffering at your hands, Israel.

[graffic]

Happy Yom Ha'atzmaut for Monday

[maskerade]

By "them" and "their" you mean the original inhabitants back in 1948 who are no longer around or very old. Most of the Zionists who moved to Palestine were pretty progressive and wanted to work with local Arabs peacefully but surrounding Arab countries declared war on the Jewish state as soon as it was formed. Israel's been fighting for its existence ever since and the anti-Zionists still fantasize that the Jews will go back to Europe, which isn't going to happen. Zionists became antagonistic towards Arabs because pan-Arabism completely rejected Israel. The inhabitants have a case against being cleansed but its important to remember that many Zionists wanted to work with the local Arab population peacefully which would have lead to a peaceful, prosperous Israel in which Arabs and Jews live side by side in peace albeit in a Jewish state with to an extent a Jewish character (holidays, remembrance day etc) but Arabs or other minorities have equal rights.

When you consider the reality of the holocaust and the fact that palestine was essentially a strip of nothing before israel there is no real justification for hatred of Zionism and Jews except if you are religious, like muslims for example.

Ok, I'll disregard your rampant historical inaccuracy for the time being, and instead focus on the inherent racism in your post.

"essentially a strip of nothing" - let's pretend that this was true, and that Palestinians didn't have an old culture pre-dating the arrival of Zionists in the 1940s; why would it matter? Who are you to judge a foreign culture in terms which are so obviously ethnocentric? Even if Palestinians were organized into bands of hunter-gathers there would still be no right for Zionists to come and claim the land, forcibly remove the Palestinians, and conduct a series of brutal campaigns of aggressive expansion which border on ethnic cleansing.

Your perceived lack of established Palestinian society - which is based purely in your imagination - has no bearing on any form of justification for Zionism.

[graffic]

I was saying the Israeli's have done a lot there. Tel Aviv is a modern Israeli invented city which is now one of the most attractive tourist destinations cities in the world. The Palestinians were "forcibly" moved because of the war waged by Arab nations in 1948. I'm not saying it is correct but if you follow this logic to its logical conclusion the United States should also be handed back to the native Americans.

[maskerade]

I was saying the Israeli's have done a lot there. Tel Aviv is a modern Israeli invented city which is now one of the most attractive tourist destinations cities in the world. The Palestinians were "forcibly" moved because of the war waged by Arab nations in 1948. I'm not saying it is correct but if you follow this logic to its logical conclusion the United States should also be handed back to the native Americans.

It should be, instead of having Native Americans living in cramped reservations and mostly below the poverty line.

Unfortunately, most Native Americans were exterminated in one of history's most brutal genocides.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Yeah going to any Indian Reservation, not the casino, is an eye opening experience.

Obviously reperations need to be made, but like Palestinians pretending that they have any hope of removing Israel entirely, hopes that the US will go away are severely delusional. Whether that opinion is 'right' or 'wrong' is inconsequential.