So has anyone....

[Hexen]

Actually written fiction about how a Post-Revolutionary society will look like which gives people a better understanding what we're fighting for?

[Tablo]

Like a fictional story?

[Hexen]

Like a fictional story?

Yes, but just a accurate depiction of a Post-Revolutionary society will look like contrary to popular (capitalist) belief. Like a depiction of a person's daily life, how worker's control the means of production and what it looks like, and such. It's rather something I would point to people saying this is what a real communist/socialist society looks like.

[Queercommie Girl]

Have you ever read The Dispossessed by Urusla Le Guin? That science fiction novel depicts an anarchist society and the potential issues and problems that could arise in it.

Personally if I ever write such a novel, I would mix elements of science fiction into it, since I'm also influenced by technocratic thought.

[Hexen]

Have you ever read The Dispossessed by Urusla Le Guin? That science fiction novel depicts an anarchist society and the potential issues and problems that could arise in it.

Personally if I ever write such a novel, I would mix elements of science fiction into it, since I'm also influenced by technocratic thought.

Well what about a fictional story set in "modern times" of today instead of a far future setting to give people a clearer understanding of what communism/socialism really is?

[bcbm]

we don't know what it will be...

[Queercommie Girl]

Well what about a fictional story set in "modern times" of today instead of a far future setting to give people a clearer understanding of what communism/socialism really is?

Objectively of course a social realist literary style will have more positive impact on people in the strategic sense, but I'm just a fan of science fiction in general. :D

Another utopian semi-example of a futuristic communist society (more Leninist-style rather than anarchist) would the United Federation of Planets in Star Trek. :D (Problem is, Star Trek literature generally only depicts the military and scientific aspects of the Federation, rather than what life in general is like)

I do agree that this kind of thing might be good socialist propaganda. (The term "propaganda" is used in the positive sense here)

[bcbm]

yeah we are going to write really convicing fiction to make people become communists

[Queercommie Girl]

yeah we are going to write really convicing fiction to make people become communists

Well, it worked for me to some extent. :D

But seriously, one reason I've actually become a socialist is because I'm attracted to certain visions of what society would be like in a futuristic socialist society, even if such visions aren't strictly Marxist.

Obviously this isn't a main thing, but art and literature is indeed one potential tool/weapon/vehicle for socialist propaganda, generally speaking. The Maoists, for example, used artistic propaganda to some extent in China to agitate the peasants to rise up against their landlord masters. Often information presented in a more artistic or literary way is easier to absorb by the masses than chunk after chunk of dry dense Marxist texts.

Remember that socialism isn't just about smashing the old order, it's also about building a new one. It has both a destructive and a constructive side. Vision in this sense is important to some extent. Even the peasant rebels of ancient times had crude egalitarian visions of their religion-based millennarian societies to attract more followers.

[bcbm]

sorry i just don't think that is how communism is created and in fact such visions are probably an impediment in the long run

[Manic Impressive]

Have you ever read The Dispossessed by Urusla Le Guin? That science fiction novel depicts an anarchist society and the potential issues and problems that could arise in it.

Is that the one where communists are living on the moon?

[Sasha]

1984? :tt2:

William buroughs "cities of the red night" ( http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cities_of_the_Red_Night) is set in an alternate universe where the 18th century proto-anarchist free charter pirates aren't crushed by the British but actually take over society.

[hatzel]

1984? :tt2:

I was about to make that joke and then you beat me to it and now I'm sad :crying:

[Queercommie Girl]

sorry i just don't think that is how communism is created and in fact such visions are probably an impediment in the long run

It's not how communism is "created" literally, but such propaganda does have its own role. Literature and art obviously can't be taken literally.

As I said, communism isn't just about smashing the old order. If communism can't replace the old order by something better, then communism would fail. Communism is not "revolution for the sake of revolution", but "revolution for the sake of a better, more equal world".

[Queercommie Girl]

Is that the one where communists are living on the moon?

Yes, I think that's right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispossessed

[Rooster]

Yes, I think that's right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispossessed

Oh God. That just reminded me of this really bizarre children's book (I guess?) that I read years and years ago. Man, I think it was called "From Earth to Mars: a perfect world" or something. If I recall, it began with a group of American astronauts landing on Mars. This Mars though had air and plants but it was still red and dusty. But they come across this group of Americans from the midwest I think, who had got sucked up by a gravitational field onto Mars with their small town, their life span increased and they developed a socialist utopia on Mars. No one works, everything is done by machines, people ride around on electric bikes that fit into tram lines, etc. I think the astronauts get so offended by this or something that they end up trying to trash the place. I actually can't remember how it ends. Jeez, I must have read that decades ago. I wonder if that was what made me a communist? :confused:

[Lenina Rosenweg]

1984? :tt2:

William buroughs "cities of the red night" ( http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cities_of_the_Red_Night) is set in an alternate universe where the 18th century proto-anarchist free charter pirates aren't crushed by the British but actually take over society.

That was an interesting but bizarre book. I read when I was younger, I may reread it.The cover art gave me nightmares.

Fire On The Mountain by Terry Bisson. Its alternate history in which the abolitionist John Brown's attempt to start a slave uprising in the US succeeded. It jumps between historical periods. By the 1950s the US south, now called Nova Africa, is a socialist society with very advanced technology. The US recently had a revolution and is now the USSA. Reading it gave me a bitter sweet feeling that I badly wished history had turned out that way.

http://www.terrybisson.com/

http://www.amazon.com/Mountain-Spectacular-Fiction-Terry-Bisson/dp/1604860871/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1304095788&sr=8-1

The Dispossessed by Ursula LeGuin is excellent. LeGuin uses technology as more of a backdrop and doesn't explore it much.

The writing of Kim Stanley Robinson is very interesting. "Pacific Edge" is about a socialist society in northern California in the late 21st century. He goes into a lot of the nuts and bolts of how society would be organised although some of his vision could be criticised by Marxists. The technology is pretty much what we have today.

The Mars Trilogy (Blue Mars, Green, Red)is about a socialist revolution on Mars. Its has Marxist thought with a lot of hard science and technology.

The alternate history forum has had an ongoing collaborative scenario about a socialist America assuming there was a revolution in the 1930s. Its interesting, a lot of thought and research went into it.

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/forumdisplay.php?f=16

[Queercommie Girl]

Oh God. That just reminded me of this really bizarre children's book (I guess?) that I read years and years ago. Man, I think it was called "From Earth to Mars: a perfect world" or something. If I recall, it began with a group of American astronauts landing on Mars. This Mars though had air and plants but it was still red and dusty. But they come across this group of Americans from the midwest I think, who had got sucked up by a gravitational field onto Mars with their small town, their life span increased and they developed a socialist utopia on Mars. No one works, everything is done by machines, people ride around on electric bikes that fit into tram lines, etc. I think the astronauts get so offended by this or something that they end up trying to trash the place. I actually can't remember how it ends. Jeez, I must have read that decades ago. I wonder if that was what made me a communist? :confused:

Have you actually read The Dispossessed? It has a rather sophisticated narrative and actually raises some intriguing questions about issues and problems that could potentially emerge in an anarchist society.

Do you have a sarcastic attitude towards literature in general or just science fiction in particular? Or are you one of those people who believe that only "social realism" is genuine Marxist literature? :rolleyes:

As for your example, well it may be a "children's book", but Marx does talk about technological progress under communism being used to shorten working hours and improve living standards for workers, so in a general sense the idea isn't actually far off the mark.

[Hexen]

Objectively of course a social realist literary style will have more positive impact on people in the strategic sense, but I'm just a fan of science fiction in general. :D

Another utopian semi-example of a futuristic communist society (more Leninist-style rather than anarchist) would the United Federation of Planets in Star Trek. :D (Problem is, Star Trek literature generally only depicts the military and scientific aspects of the Federation, rather than what life in general is like)

I do agree that this kind of thing might be good socialist propaganda. (The term "propaganda" is used in the positive sense here)

Of course I'm not talking about far future Star Trek like societies but rather a Post-Revolutionary society that takes place in contemporary times of today without any space travel.

[Queercommie Girl]

Of course I'm not talking about far future Star Trek like societies but rather a Post-Revolutionary society that takes place in contemporary times of today without any space travel.

I was semi-joking. ;)

But seriously, yes, I think you have a point. One could write a piece of literature to depict such a society. We shouldn't put too much weight on such a thing of course, but I think it would have a positive effect.

But I really recommend you read The Dispossessed though. Even though it's technically "science fiction", unlike Star Trek the scientific/technical aspects aren't actually the main issues in The Dispossessed. It is a much more sociological novel that deals with actual social issues and problems in an anarchist society, even though the backdrop of the story is a "science fiction" one. After all, Le Guin was originally trained as an anthropologist, not a natural scientist.

Maybe the content of this novel can inspire you to write a even better one.

[Hexen]

Okay, I have another thought...

For those who play Role Playing games, what about a "World of Dakness" setting in a Post-Revolutionary society (imagine playing as a Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, Fae, Demon in such of a society and how would they function and survive)?

[Tablo]

I think that would be pretty interesting. Would probably be a lot harder to keep your vampirism a secret.

[Rooster]

Have you actually read The Dispossessed? It has a rather sophisticated narrative and actually raises some intriguing questions about issues and problems that could potentially emerge in an anarchist society.

Do you have a sarcastic attitude towards literature in general or just science fiction in particular? Or are you one of those people who believe that only "social realism" is genuine Marxist literature? :rolleyes:

As for your example, well it may be a "children's book", but Marx does talk about technological progress under communism being used to shorten working hours and improve living standards for workers, so in a general sense the idea isn't actually far off the mark.

Oh no, don't get me wrong. I love literature. And I did read that book as a child (the one I mentioned). It was just bizarre, maybe just from my memory of it, because it showed how great a socialist society would be but this crazy American astronaut just decided to wreck it anyway. I just mentioned it because what you said just brought back a really powerful and sudden memory (hence the Oh God!).

Oh and sci-fi is probably my favourite genre. I'll pick up The Disposed the next time I have a flight to get.

[Psy]

I think that would be pretty interesting. Would probably be a lot harder to keep your vampirism a secret.

Then you have people having free-access to firearms and more able to quickly organize defense forces. The idea of a remote community being totally helpless wouldn't be realistic anymore as itself would have access to arms and can depend on the communist world coming their aid if they need it.

[Queercommie Girl]

Okay, I have another thought...

For those who play Role Playing games, what about a "World of Dakness" setting in a Post-Revolutionary society (imagine playing as a Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, Fae, Demon in such of a society and how would they function and survive)?

There won't be enough internal conflicts in a genuine socialist society for such a RPG to be interesting.

Also, your theme sounds a bit reactionary. If you play as a vampire in a communist society, wouldn't that make you a counter-revolutionary agent, since you are trying to wreck the communist society?

I prefer RPGs where you play the positive/progressive character. (Like maybe a vampire-hunter in your case)

[Devrim]

Actually written fiction about how a Post-Revolutionary society will look like which gives people a better understanding what we're fighting for?

Try William Morris: http://www.marxists.org/archive/morris/works/1890/nowhere/nowhere.htm

Devrim

[EvilRedGuy]

There used to be a book about a time traveling Peter Kropotkin, but i forgot the name.

[Hexen]

There won't be enough internal conflicts in a genuine socialist society for such a RPG to be interesting.

Also, your theme sounds a bit reactionary. If you play as a vampire in a communist society, wouldn't that make you a counter-revolutionary agent, since you are trying to wreck the communist society?

I prefer RPGs where you play the positive/progressive character. (Like maybe a vampire-hunter in your case)

I don't see how playing as a vampire in a communist society is "reactionary and counter-revolutionary". They could just adapt to the society. Also if you played Vampire: The Requiem (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Vampire:_The_Requiem), have you heard the Carthian Movement? Also in Vampire: The Masquerade (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Vampire:_The_Masquerade) the closest "Revolutionary" movement was the Anarchs.

[Impulse97]

Is that the one where communists are living on the moon?

Best. Idea. Ever. Let the Caps have the Earth! We've progressed beyond such childish earth homes and lifestyles. To the Moon I say!


There won't be enough internal conflicts in a genuine socialist society for such a RPG to be interesting.


"Super Mortal Death Commie Combat V: Revenge of the Mensheviks"

[Queercommie Girl]

Best. Idea. Ever. Let the Caps have the Earth! We've progressed beyond such childish earth homes and lifestyles. To the Moon I say!


Actually the story in the novel is set in a completely different planetary system, not in our solar system.

But I think you are basically joking around here.

[Summerspeaker]

The revolutionary society in The Dispossessed has no meaningful technological advantages over contemporary Earth. To the contrary, the harsh environment makes life on Anarres more difficult than it is here. In theory, communism/technocracy would provide far better conditions for the entire species with only existing innovations. Near-future breakthroughs would make things happier still. Le Guin's novel portrays a materially bleak version of anarchist success, yet it's still overwhelmingly appealing compared with capitalism.

[Tablo]

Then you have people having free-access to firearms and more able to quickly organize defense forces. The idea of a remote community being totally helpless wouldn't be realistic anymore as itself would have access to arms and can depend on the communist world coming their aid if they need it.
Plus the random deaths that could previously be thought of as murders would now be more thoroughly investigated due to lack of crime in a communist society.