Views on the military?

[Lanky Wanker]

Good? Bad? Needs change? Also please state whether you are an anarchist, communist, bla bla bla and also which type you would be classified as.

[PhoenixAsh]

Bad. It needs to be dissolved. Replace it by workers militia.


- anarchist
- anacrhist/anarcho communist

[Lt. Ferret]

BUNCHA MONKEYS WITH GUNS.


post-marxist.

[skep]

The founders of the U.S. opposed a standing military and I agree with that position. Arm the workers and get rid of it.

[lines]

Every nation needs a military, I oppose the actions of the usa military though. Chavismo is my ideology.

[Thug Lessons]

I don't really have anything against it in principle, but at least here in the United States it's incredible what terrible people members of the military are. They're no doubt the most violent and ignorant group of alcoholics outside of the prison system.

By the way, I'm a Yaoi Fanatic Gamer Girl, a.k.a. a Left Communist.

[Lt. Ferret]

alcoholics yes, but all the soldiers i have are just normal people who like to sit on their cell phones and play Stupid Zombies just like anyone else.

[Thug Lessons]

This is just further evidence of the disconnect between soldiers and regular people, who play Angry Birds.

[Revolution starts with U]

You don't notice it because you have the same sadistic impulses.
No offense, but it's why I always (incorrectly) thought you were a right winger.

[alegab]

Every country needs to defend themselves and I'd rather have an army than a police-like militia (as in Japan), but it should be of a proper size (and well armed)and the US one is just too huge for the "real" needs of America, and it should be primarily used to defend your homeland rather than invading others or attacking your own people
Here (Argentina) our armed forces still use ships from World War II and weapons bought from Egypt in the 1980s and the Minister of Defense has said publicly she hates the military and the police (that's just not right :crying:)
Left-wing social democrat, democratic socialist

[Lt. Ferret]

You don't notice it because you have the same sadistic impulses.
No offense, but it's why I always (incorrectly) thought you were a right winger.

what sadistic impulses do i have?

[Revolution starts with U]

The whole "go in there and level the whole town" attitude you seem to have. It's your perogative. But it's there. I woul dhave to dig through specific posts if you wanted that.

[Lt. Ferret]

im not going to ask you to do that. but i dont really have that mentality. hell if you want to call me a reactionary, i have some weird varient of white mans burden in that i am absolutely sickened when i see a woman get stoned to death in a third world hellhole because she was raped and my emotional impulse is to go liberate it with bullets. but thats not a logical stance.

[skep]

but thats not a logical stance.

The establishment and perpetuation of oppressive dictators is a phenomenon of western militarism, and the solution probably isn't more western militarism.

[Lt. Ferret]

theres been murdering dictators and kings way before europe and america started planting them around the globe

[#FF0000]

Good? Bad? Needs change? Also please state whether you are an anarchist, communist, bla bla bla and also which type you would be classified as.

The military in any society is p. much the sword and shield of the ruling class(es).

So, bad.

And I am a left-communist.

[#FF0000]

theres been murdering dictators and kings way before europe and america started planting them around the globe

yeah but what we're saying is that America just puts in more. If they get rid of one, the U.S. replaces it with another.

[Summerspeaker]

As an institution, strictly bad. Abolish or convert it immediately. Arm workers if required, but I would prefer a culture mutual aid that recognizes the essentially wasteful nature of weapons.

As you can see, I'm an anarchist.

[Lt. Ferret]

yeah but what we're saying is that America just puts in more. If they get rid of one, the U.S. replaces it with another.


communist russia tried they jsut werent that good at it.

[#FF0000]

communist russia tried they jsut werent that good at it.

okay

[Thug Lessons]

The Red Army was actually very effective as a conventional force, which is why the US and other NATO powers had to stockpile massive supplies of nuclear weapons as a deterrent to what would have been an overwhelming force if they ever decided to go ahead and push into West Germany and beyond.

[liquidm]

The issue that I have with the military is that it acts as the unthinking arm of a country's self-interest. I oppose the military for the same reason that I oppose the police, there is no room for moral abstraction in these forces and the members follow their authority figures without questioning if their actions are right.

-anarcho-communist

[Revolution starts with U]

go liberate it with bullets.

Ya, that's the sadism I was talking about :lol:

I feel the same way about the issue as you. We just approach the solution a little differently. Your method hasn't worked yet and it's been tried. Mine can't even get off the ground...

[GallowsBird]

I think the military should be treated like any other form of work. It should be socialised... sadly countries, especially Socialist ones, need a standing army as many powers would want to "show those commies whose boss" and "contain the Commmunist threat" (and I am not just ignoring Anarchism here just pointing out that the right conflate all revolutionary leftist (and even some liberal) movements as "Communism").
I know not everyone is enamoured with the USSR but if we take it as a Socialist country as it, and the outside world, thought it was at the time (and I still do as well obviously) and look into the movement against it from the outside powers then I think most would have a hard time trying to convince many people that the Red Army was not needed in the USSR for the fight against the Whites, various Imperialist powers and Nazi Germany. The USSR would have had a hard time of trying to unify and pacify the areas within its borders and even surviving the mass hordes against them.

[Münchhausen]

The issue that I have with the military is that it acts as the unthinking arm of a country's self-interest. I oppose the military for the same reason that I oppose the police, there is no room for moral abstraction in these forces and the members follow their authority figures without questioning if their actions are right.

That pretty much sums it up from my point of view. I saw it when some friends of mine were joining the army and they more and more abandoned thinking for themselves and wouldn't even argue with me, if it's right what they're doing. They would just give the same stupid answers, that they were told to give.

Also, as i am living in germany, i generally have a bad feeling when i see people marching around with torches waving flags or demanding a stronger military and so on... I don't know it's the historical trauma i guess. And as far as i know the german military is
oriented towards the right-wing or at least conservativism. Every now and again it comes to cases of racism, severe mobbing and of course sexism and homophobia (but after all that's not very surprising, since the army and the nazi-organisations recruit their members partially from the same groups: young men with little or no perspective and a tendency for violence). That's why i adopted some kind of anti-military stance in the last few years. Of course there are also decent people, who join the military, but also decent people can do terrible things when the pressure is high enough.

Anyway i think the military would at least need fundamental changes in organisation and personnel. Probably a militia would eventually be better, but i have to admit what GallowsBird said about the need of an army for a socialist country seemed somewhat reasonable to me...

Oh... and I'm a left communist I'd say.

[Lanky Wanker]

so I see I'm not the only one who thinks the army are a bunch of snob lovers lol. I actually much prefer the idea of a sort of army of the workers instead, like people have said. have any of you guys actually gone far enough as to say fuck the army? I feel like everyone would give me some kind of "z0mg they're risking their lives for us" crap if I actually said that to any non-left wingers.

[Magón]

so I see I'm not the only one who thinks the army are a bunch of snob lovers lol. I actually much prefer the idea of a sort of army of the workers instead, like people have said. have any of you guys actually gone far enough as to say fuck the army? I feel like everyone would give me some kind of "z0mg they're risking their lives for us" crap if I actually said that to any non-left wingers.

Fuck the army? OMYGODTHEYRERISKINGTHEIRLIVESFORUS!

I say I don't like the army/military all the time.

[#FF0000]

so I see I'm not the only one who thinks the army are a bunch of snob lovers lol. I actually much prefer the idea of a sort of army of the workers instead, like people have said. have any of you guys actually gone far enough as to say fuck the army? I feel like everyone would give me some kind of "z0mg they're risking their lives for us" crap if I actually said that to any non-left wingers.

Yeah, fuck the army is my general stance. Like I said, there can be great people who are in the army, but if they're good people it's despite that.

[Lt. Ferret]

most people in the army are just normal people.

[#FF0000]

most people in the army are just normal people.

deep down I'm sure most criminals are too.

[Lt. Ferret]

your bigotry is illogical to the point where its easily comparable to racism.

[Koba1917]

Military should be used for the working class and not the rich Capitalists. But Military will wither away in World Communism.

[StockholmSyndrome]

Military, intelligence personnel, law enforcement, etc. are public services. In a capitalist society they protect capitalism, in a socialist society they protect socialism. It is abhorrent to hold prejudices against those who work in these fields. They are your fellow workers just trying to pay their bills. I am a social democrat/democratic socialist.

[MattShizzle]

As it is bad. They protect Capitalism and project Imperialism in the US at least.

[MattShizzle]

your bigotry is illogical to the point where its easily comparable to racism.


Being against the arm of oppression isn't bigotry.

[Lt. Ferret]

Being against the arm of oppression isn't bigotry.


denigrating soldiers without knowing them is bigotry, just like denigrating black people, or mexican migrants is bigotry.

[Revolution starts with U]

Black people don't choose to be black. It's not very methodological to make sweeping generalizations of people you've not met. But it's not bigotry by any stretch of the imagination.

[Lt. Ferret]

it really is. most soldiers i know are just guys or girls i could have met at a college party, at a rave, at a diner, anywhere. they have interests and life goals that dont coincide at all with killing little brown children.

[Princess Luna]

it really is. most soldiers i know are just guys or girls i could have met at a college party, at a rave, at a diner, anywhere. they have interests and life goals that dont coincide at all with killing little brown children.
Of course they don't want to kill little brown children, that is why the U.S. invests so much money in things that keep soldiers as far as possible from the carnage they wreak.

[RGacky3]

No one says that soldiers want to kill little brown children, most of them, in the US, are driven by a lack of opportunity elsewhere.

Our problem is with the institution, I have a different view on the military in the US than elsewhere.

For example in Norway, those troops in Afghanistan, I have no sympathy for them, to hell with them, they have opportunities, they don't HAVE to go, even if they are in the military they cna decide not to go without consequences, there is no patriotic duty to go there, (terrorists did not attack Norway), so the only reason they would go, is basically because they want to kill people, i.e. they are psychopaths.

In the US I do not support soldeirs as soldiers, I support them as I would any human being, not what they do, and not what they stand for.

[Viet Minh]

I'm opposed to a standing army. I'd say voluntary conscription for training purposes, and a reserve army on standby. Myabe a similar model to the Swiss Army, but with regionalised barracks holding weapons.

EDIT: Marx-Minhist :D

[#FF0000]

your bigotry is illogical to the point where its easily comparable to racism.

I guess if you're stupid it's easily comparable.


Military, intelligence personnel, law enforcement, etc. are public services. In a capitalist society they protect capitalism, in a socialist society they protect socialism. It is abhorrent to hold prejudices against those who work in these fields. They are your fellow workers just trying to pay their bills. I am a social democrat/democratic socialist.

They're trying to pay bills by protecting a system that brutalizes people.

What do you think of the Mafia, boyo?

[crazyirish93]

If the army was reformed with a small full time professional core and having a rotary induction for new recruits every 2 years you are inducted back in also small militias set up in towns and villages to be a counter weight if the army goes rogue.Once there is no longer a threat to the people from external forces the professional army would be dissolved the militias would remain though.The army would be good once reorganized.
Marxist-Leninist

[Omsk]

The military should always be present,to defend the country and protect its integrity.A well organised,well-supplied and professional military that would be able to protect the population of the certain state.
The commanders must also have open hands:


STALIN ALLOWS HIS GENERALS TO MAKE THEIR OWN DECISIONS

In the first phase of the war the army paid a heavy price for, among other things, the loss of self-reliance which its commanding staffs had suffered as a consequence of the purges. The warning was not, however, wasted on Stalin. He had the sense to give back to his generals their freedom of movement, to encourage them to speak their mind, to embolden them to look for the solution of their problems by way of trial and error, and to relieve them from fear of the boss's wrath, a fear which weighed so heavily on Hitler's generals. He [Stalin] punished his officers with draconic severity for lack of encourage or vigilance; he demoted them for incompetence, even when the incompetents happened to be Voroshilov and Budienny; and he promoted for initiative and efficiency. Hitler's generals had a shrewder appreciation of Stalin's method than Hitler himself when they said that the top rungs of the Russian ladder of command 'were filled by men who had proved themselves so able that they were allowed to exercise their own judgment, and could safely insist on doing things in their own way'.
Deutscher, Isaac. Stalin; A Political Biography. New York: Oxford Univ. Press, 1967, p. 494

But a strong military must be followed by a strong industry and a huge industrial and productive capacity.


SU HAD GREATER MILITARY MIGHT AND OUTPRODUCED THE NAZIS

In short, the Russians outproduced the Germans in the mechanized weapons of war in every year throughout the conflict. The Germans started the invasion with a larger accumulation of heavy weapons, and destroyed much of what the Russians had in the first five months. But the Russians eventually succeeded in maintaining their super production--often in quality as well as quantity--and in concentrating their armaments (after the first five months) more rapidly and more effectively to achieve local superiorities and win key battles.
Except for the early months of the war, before Stalin abandoned most of his disastrous strategic ideas and removed some of his incompetent friends left over from the Civil War (notably Marshal Budenny, who managed to lose 665,000 prisoners in one big bag in Ukraine in August, 1941), the Russians were as well led by their generals as the Germans were. After the first few months, the Russian troops displayed as high a morale as the Germans, and steadily greater confidence in victory. Stalin made many costly mistakes even after the first few months, but his over-all strategy thereafter avoided the irreparable disasters that Hitler imposed on his army.
As it was, the Germans invaded a country that was colossal in size, somewhat superior in military and civilian manpower, potentially much superior in armaments, as good in generalship, greatly superior in top leadership as far as the war was concerned, and possessed of defensive supply lines that had not been war-ravaged. Other things being equal, the stronger power wins the war.... These early German advantages made the war seem close in 1941, and even in 1942: but Russia's superior strength was never altogether overcome, and eventually won the war. The outcome was by no means certain, but it was, as we can now see, probable.
Randall, Francis. Stalin's Russia. New York: Free Press,1965, p. 282-283

[Tomhet]

I think joining the army in capitalist countries is quite counter productive, however I do NOT think all soldiers are 'enemies' 'specially the 'rank and file' men and women.,.

[MattShizzle]

Yes, they are as much victims of the unfair, unethical, corrupt capitalist system as anyone. But the top leaders of the military are not from the working class. They are just as bourgouise as you can get. And now the US military has struck the extremely important strategic target in Libya of a hospital for kids with Downs Syndrome:

http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/libya-disabled-children-school-hit-in-nato-strike/

If this was another country had done this we'd be calling for UN action and declaring them a "terrorist state."

[MattShizzle]

And also killed Ghadaffi's son and Grandkids. 25 years after killing his baby daughter. Yeah, he's scum but that was a shit thing to do.

[Summerspeaker]

The system absolutely brutalizes soldiers, but that doesn't make their material support for the war machine acceptable. The U.S. military has directly killed tens if not hundreds of thousands of people over the last decade. As one of my comrades says, I support the troops who refuse to fight.

[MattShizzle]

Problem is they were brainwashed by the media before they even joined and even more brainwashed by the military once they did. And as mentioned before many of them had no other real choice in this near-fascist country.

[Ele'ill]

death to the military i hope the communists attack them,

What?

[#FF0000]

What?

Troll. Ignore'em

[Viet Minh]

I was saying war is a rich mans rackett and a poor mans fight and in the final stage of communism there will be no militarism and war racketeering.

Once there is global communism perhaps, but until then Capitalist and especially Fascist states will always be a threat to leftist ones.

[Chris]

I support an army relying on a 1-2 year long national service, even in capitalist states. It helps make the military be a part of the people, rather than a something separate of it. The officer corps still needs to be professional, but political officers should also be assigned to the military alongside the professionals.
Simply put, as long as there are nations one needs some form of centralised military for defensive purposes, but the army should be a part of the people through relying on national service for the common soldiery and NCOs. Only when we have achieved communism can militaries be abolished.

I'm a Marxist-Leninist.

[StockholmSyndrome]

They're trying to pay bills by protecting a system that brutalizes people.

What do you think of the Mafia, boyo?

So blame the system, not them. But the Mafia thing was pretty good. Touché.

[Johnny Kerosene]

I say, as a few others have, get rid of it. Worker's militia or something of the sort.


liberate it with bullets.

I lol'd

[masty]

So blame the system, not them. But the Mafia thing was pretty good. Touché.
your line about 'people just trying to pay bills' implies that these people are victims but in the united states, at least, military recruitment comes disproportionately from the middle classes i.e. the people who have the ability to choose otherwise. this is from class interest, obviously, but there's a practical dimension to it as well- past felonies, drug use, visible tattoos and the inability to follow orders (order-following being a key bourgeois virtue) all work against lower class recruitment.

the heritage foundation (lol) actually did a study proving this with simple math a while ago and it was very funny because the text of the study said something like 'those who imply that our men and women in uniform are merely there for a paycheck slander their exemplary patriotism,' which basically means 'the military is completely wretched'

so here's a case of what was formerly a lower-class institution being turned into a middle-class one (the upper class has completely deserted the military, interestingly enough). thus talking about soldiers as if they were (largely) victims of circumstance gives them a pass they don't deserve.

I'm a socialist with chinese characteristics

[RGacky3]

Do you have any statistics for that?

[masty]

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2005/11/Who-Bears-the-Burden-Demographic-Characteristics-of-US-Military-Recruits-Before-and-After-9-11 you can check their references too, everything comes from the census and public military records

this happens for other things too (I mean that conservative researchers inadvertently make themselves look much worse by challenging liberal falsifications of history etc). I remember a controversy over a study a historian did of firearm ownership in the colonial/early statehood period of america. he claimed that firearms were rare and most settlers were unarmed, and everyone was excited because it was proof that americans were not always bloodthirsty. but as it turns out the historian had cooked his data beyond recognition and the book he wrote on the subject was actually withdrawn by the publisher. that he had cooked his data was discovered by conservative historians enraged at his findings. so in the end, the conservative historians rejected this nicer picture of their own ancestors and proudly replaced the true image- which is of heavily armed, brutal savages.

[RGacky3]

Thanks, interesting stuff, well that kind of shoots down one of my arguments that I've used in the past.

But eitherway, in my opinion patriotism is a dumb emotion, but understandable given the propeganda and upbrining in the US, but its something we need to fight against.

[Lt. Ferret]

soldiers come from all walks of life for a massive variety of reasons. that paper didn't really tell me anything the average person didn't already know.

[☭The Revolution☭]

I am a Marx-Leninist, with some Maoist tendencies - An old school soviet.

I believe we need to have Commies inside the US Armed Forces, so when revolution time comes, we will have people on the inside that can get us access to armor, air craft, etc.

[Drosophila]

Hit-men for the overpaid US government.

- Democratic socialist..or something.

[#FF0000]

Hit-men for the overpaid US government.

- Democratic socialist..or something.

Democrat. The word you are looking for is Democrat.

I like that I found something we can agree on though.

Building bridges, tearing down walls.

[hatzel]

I'm one of those annoyingly naïve types who have read a bit too much pacifist shizzle and honestly believe that a non-violent post-military weapons system based on civilian resistance is both possible, and superior to military forces in every possible way :blushing:

Or, superior for the people. Not so great for those who feel like invading other countries, but more than adequate from a defensive perspective. As I see no possible benefit in having a military force, though, be it a national army, workers militia or any other possible set-up, other than for the defense of individuals against aggression, that's plenty good enough for me! :)

I wait with bated breath for the day when such ideas are widely adopted...I feel I'm waiting in vain, unfortunately...

[RGacky3]

I'm one of those annoyingly naïve types who have read a bit too much pacifist shizzle and honestly believe that a non-violent post-military weapons system based on civilian resistance is both possible, and superior to military forces in every possible way :blushing:


How so?

[hatzel]

How so?

How am I annoyingly naïve, how is it possible or how is it superior? :lol:

[RGacky3]

The latter, who wants to listen to your self-depreciation :P?

[hatzel]

I can give a more...thorough explanation this evening, perhaps, because at the moment I have to scoot off to an exam, but (if you'll excuse the whole Cold War-era 'the Soviets are invading!' thing :rolleyes:) this article (http://www.fragmentsweb.org/stuff/nvwar.html) approaches the issue, and has a few super-funky links at the bottom. It seems slightly less heavy work than having to read a whole book on that bullhonk...:)