A question about Northern Ireland.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I've heard on multiple occassions that the issue of re-unification is sometimes brought up for a vote in Northern Ireland, but is always voted down by the population there. I was just wondering why this was.

[Ned Kelly]

The prods that were planted there long ago by the British now outnumber the Irish there

[lines]

The prods that were planted there long ago by the British now outnumber the Irish there

They are there now though. They belong there as much as anyone else. Ireland isn't re-unified because Northern Ireland has the right to self-determination.

[Demogorgon]

There was only one referendum there and it was voted down amid a Nationalist boycott. There is a clear majority against reunification in Northern Ireland however as can be seen from voting patterns in elections as well as Opinion Polls.

That is a pity of course, but it is the fact we have to accept. I think people can be convinced in the long run that unification would be beneficial, though outrageous Sectarian comments like the one above will not help that.

EDIT: The outrageous comment was by eureka, another one sneaked in while I was replying!

[Marxach-Léinínach]

A gerrymandered border, that's why

[Tommy4ever]

A gerrymandered border, that's why

This.

There is a reason why Northern Ireland only consists of 2/3s of Ulster. At the time of partition Ulster had a population split of roughly 50/50 in terms of Protestants to Catholics. So they created a Northern Ireland that was large enough to be a viable state but had a secure Protestant majority.

From 1921 until 1972 the Stormont government effectively functioned like the occupied territories of Palestine today or Apartheid South Africa with the Protestants and Loyalists in charge. There was also a lot of gerrymandering of constituencies to make sure that the Catholics had the minimal amount of electoral power as well.

Demographic change in Northern Ireland has been quite interesting. The Catholic population has slowly been increasing its chare of the entire population - this coupled with a recent shift among sections of the Protestant community against continued Union (the old fearmongering about Romanism and Catholic vengeance has dated badly) leaves a small possibility that there could, mabye, potentially, one day be a united Ireland. Mabye.

[RedSunRising]

I've heard on multiple occassions that the issue of re-unification is sometimes brought up for a vote in Northern Ireland, but is always voted down by the population there. I was just wondering why this was.

It hasnt been multiple occasions at all.

There is a majority for ending the occupation in 4 of the 6 counties that make up the Orange statelet hence the discussions about re-partition and a Unionist no warning bombing campaign in the south if a border poll comes up that is likely to see a "nationalist" majority. I dont think a border poll will come up in these circumstances because of the strategic and idealogical importance of "Northern Ireland" to the British ruling class.

[RedSunRising]

They are there now though. They belong there as much as anyone else. Ireland isn't re-unified because Northern Ireland has the right to self-determination.

Can the "Northern Ireland" statelet exist without the insitutional sectarianism which it in a large measure came into existence to protect? What has the partition of Ireland (which was always considered one unit before) in political terms meant? The existence of Northern Ireland is a denial of Irish self determination.

[lines]

The desire for a united ireland is motivated by nationalist feelings of ethnic solidarity and contains racist sentiment towards the protestant population while veiling that bigotry in a victimization narrative and empty leftist rhetoric.

[RedSunRising]

The desire for a united ireland is motivated by nationalist feelings of ethnic solidarity and contains racist sentiment towards the protestant population while veiling that bigotry in a victimization narrative and empty leftist rhetoric.

You were getting all worked up about white South Africans early werent you? Where did you gain this "insight" into Irish politics?

"Victimization narrative"? Are you denying the misery, death and terror that British rule has meant in Ireland (and still to a lesser degree means today?).

[lines]

"Victimization narrative"? Are you denying the misery, death and terror that British rule has meant in Ireland (and still to a lesser degree means today?).
Both irish and british have caused eachother misery. Irish militants have killed many british. Also many irish are very racist towards the english but veil that racism behind a victim narrative. People advocating a united ireland are nationalists pretending to be leftists.

[Tommy4ever]

Both irish and british have caused eachother misery. Irish militants have killed many british. Also many irish are very racist towards the english but veil that racism behind a victim narrative. People advocating a united ireland are nationalists pretending to be leftists.

When the Troubles initially began there was in reality very little difference between Northern Ireland had how regimes like Apartheid South Africa functioned. Then the struggle was undeniably justified.

Today, well, that same level of oppression has gone and now there is just a huge amount of bad feeling on both sides.

But it is very hard to make an argument that the Republican were in any way the 'bad guys' in the conflict. From both a moral standpoint and from a socialist analysis of the situation.

[lines]

Why does there have to be bad guy and good guys?

[Marxach-Léinínach]

Both irish and british have caused eachother misery. Irish militants have killed many british.
They killed a lot of British soldiers, definitely.

Also many irish are very racist towards the english but veil that racism behind a victim narrative. People advocating a united ireland are nationalists pretending to be leftists.
I doubt anti-English racism in Ireland is anything like anti-Irish racism here in Britain

[Tommy4ever]

Why does there have to be bad guy and good guys?

I thought you were infering that the nationalists were the 'bad guys'.

I agree that both sides are fuelled by nationalism and sectarian hatred. However, I also have to say that at the start of the Troubles at least Republican militancy was extremely justifiable and was indeed the only possible option for the Catholic population. I also feel that they suffered much worse abuses than they dealt out.

This makes me more sympathetic to the Republican cause than the Loyalist one. But we should not stop short of pointing out the great flaws in that movement.

[lines]

I am not sympathetic to any side, just trying to point out that both sides are the same.

[Tim Finnegan]

Both irish and british have caused eachother misery. Irish militants have killed many british. Also many irish are very racist towards the english but veil that racism behind a victim narrative. People advocating a united ireland are nationalists pretending to be leftists.
http://www.marxist.com/images/stories/ireland/james_connolly.jpg

And, frankly, if you don't know who this is or what the significance of my posting it is, you don't get to have an opinion on the matter.

[Tommy4ever]

http://www.marxist.com/images/stories/ireland/james_connolly.jpg

And, frankly, if you don't know who this is or what the significance of my posting it is, you don't get to have an opinion on the matter.

One of Edinburgh's greatest sons. :D

:tt2:

[lines]

I know who james connolly is, but that is irrelevant. All nationalist movements have victim narratives.

[Tim Finnegan]

I know who james connolly is, but that is irrelevant. All nationalist movements have victim narratives.
That's only a damning observation if the narratives are predominately false, as with the Ulster loyalist narrative. Those who have suffered from centuries of imperialist occupation are given at least some small license to mouth off about it.

And, if it wouldn't be too much trouble, could you answer my implicit question re:James Connolly as a "pretend" leftist?

[progressive_lefty]

There was only one referendum there and it was voted down amid a Nationalist boycott. There is a clear majority against reunification in Northern Ireland however as can be seen from voting patterns in elections as well as Opinion Polls.

I'm wasn't aware of this, can you post a wikipedia link or something about this?

I think at some stage Ireland will be re-united because of the terrible history of violence that has gone on for 100s of years. Just like East Timor finally became separate to Indonesia, I believe the same will happen in Ireland. In saying that though, I personally believe things have changed in terms of the environment in Ireland and the UK. I'm aware of the backward sectarianism in Scotland, but I've found that most of the young English people I have met have no deep seated hatred of Catholics or Irish people. Most of the English people I meet tell me they like the Irish accent or have loads of Irish friends or something. I find that relieving considering there was so much hatred 20+ years ago, between British people and the Irish, and I'm not trying to say it still doesn't exist today.
Even in Australia sectarianism used to be rife, my grandparents would often talk about the hatred between Catholics and Protestants.

[lines]

The situation in ireland is analogous to the situation in north america where canada is a commonwealth nation and the usa is not. Just because there is a single island doesn't mean it has to be under ther jurisdiction of the same entity.

[Os Cangaceiros]

It hasnt been multiple occasions at all.

There is a majority for ending the occupation in 4 of the 6 counties that make up the Orange statelet hence the discussions about re-partition and a Unionist no warning bombing campaign in the south if a border poll comes up that is likely to see a "nationalist" majority. I dont think a border poll will come up in these circumstances because of the strategic and idealogical importance of "Northern Ireland" to the British ruling class.

I'd heard on multiple occassions that it'd happened, not that it'd happened on multiple occassions. But actually my impression was that there'd been multiple referendums on the issue, so I was apparently mistaken.

But I don't really know anything about N. Ireland, hence the question.

[lines]

That's only a damning observation if the narratives are predominately false, as with the Ulster loyalist narrative. Those who have suffered from centuries of imperialist occupation are given at least some small license to mouth off about it.

And, if it wouldn't be too much trouble, could you answer my implicit question re:James Connolly as a "pretend" leftist?

Both parties have grievances that are legit. History is filled with warring tribes swindling eachother. I feel bad for people on both sides who lost property or loved ones.

I have noticed though some advocates for irish unification speak as though their cause is a holy cause and that their side is pure good while they simultaneously use racist rhetoric against english people and protestant descended ulstermen. And the truth is this is not a manichean battle of good versus evil.

This is a clannish squabble between the two parties.

It would be too much trouble to answer your question about james connolly.

[mosfeld]

They are there now though. They belong there as much as anyone else. Ireland isn't re-unified because Northern Ireland has the right to self-determination.

I see that the CPUSA social-chauvinist cheerleading for imperialism is not limited to the U.S. but also extends to Britain..

[Pretty Flaco]

I am not sympathetic to any side, just trying to point out that both sides are the same.

Except one side initially had less civil rights, participation in government, and was essentially segregated. You're missing the point that one side was getting fucked and discriminated against. That's like pointing to black civil rights marchers and saying they're the goddamn same as the anti-black thugs that jumped them.

[lines]

Northern ireland indicated its wishes to remain part of the uk in a referendum all the people were invited to vote in.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_sovereignty_referendum,_1973

[Pretty Flaco]

Northern ireland indicated its wishes to remain part of the uk in a referendum all the people were invited to vote in.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_sovereignty_referendum,_1973



The vote resulted in an overwhelming majority of those who voted stating they wished to remain in the UK. The nationalist boycott led to a turnout of only 58.1% of the entire electorate. In addition to taking a majority of votes cast, the UK option received the support of 57.5% of the total electorate. Less than 1% of the Catholic population turned out to vote.

lol. You should try reading a bit more.

[lines]

lol. You should try reading a bit more.


You should have read that article more closely. 98.9% of those polled voted to remain part of the uk. Of the total electorate both those who were polled and those who decided not to vote there were 57.5% who voted to remain part of the uk. 58.1% of the electorate voted(due to a boycott of the vote by a portion of the population), of those who voted 98.9% wanted to remain a part of the uk which means that 57.5% of the total electorate wants to be a part of the uk and that is a majority.


Yes or no - Votes - Percentage
Yes - 591,820 - 98.9%
No - 6,463 - 1.1%
Total votes - 598,283 - 100.00%
Voter turnout - 58.1%

[Pretty Flaco]

You should have read that article more closely. 98.9% of those polled voted to remain part of the uk. Of the total electorate both those who were polled and those who decided not to vote there were 57.5% who voted to remain part of the uk. 58.1% of the electorate voted(due to a boycott of the vote by a portion of the population), of those who voted 98.9% wanted to remain a part of the uk which means that 57.5% of the total electorate wants to be a part of the uk and that is a majority.

Of course there would be a majority vote though. The protestant population became higher than the catholic one. I'm not arguing for a united ireland though, I'm explaining the situation. The ulster historically had been the area dominated by the english landlords after England conquered ireland. (I believe under william of orange? I could be wrong).
Now, a united ireland simply wouldn't be realistic, but the discrimination was real.

[lines]

I agree the discrimination is real. Both parties have discriminated against each other. It's unproductive to get into a debate about who is the biggest victim.

[Sword and Shield]

My position on the protestants in Northern Ireland is the same as my position on the jewish settlers in Israel: agree to become a citizen of united Ireland or gtfo.

[Pretty Flaco]

I agree the discrimination is real. Both parties have discriminated against each other. It's unproductive to get into a debate about who is the biggest victim.

How have the Irish discriminated against the protestants? The terrorism by the IRA and other groups was a response to the unfair treatment. The protestants have not been victims, but that doesn't mean that peace between the two can't exist and they can coexist.

[Gorilla]

I've heard on multiple occassions that the issue of re-unification is sometimes brought up for a vote in Northern Ireland, but is always voted down by the population there. I was just wondering why this was.

The six county statelet was designed to have a Unionist/Loyalist majority. In addition, many Republicans do not recognize the twenty-six county statelet as legitimate.

It's important to keep the sides straight:

Unionists want the six county statelet to be a 'normal' part of the UK.
Loyalists want the six county statelet to be a reactionary Protestant autonomous zone under UK protection.
Nationalists want the six county statelet to merge with the twenty-six county statelet in the South.
Republicans want to dismantle both statelets and start anew on a democratic basis.

[lines]

My position on the protestants in Northern Ireland .... agree to become a citizen of united Ireland or gtfo.

Fascist much?



How have the Irish discriminated against the protestants? The terrorism by the IRA and other groups was a response to the unfair treatment. The protestants have not been victims, but that doesn't mean that peace between the two can't exist and they can coexist.

Dude terrorism againt protestant descended ulstermen is terrorism. Unless you have some sort of apartheid definition of what counts as terrorism.

[Gorilla]

The one place in Europe where a significant number of workers are favorably disposed toward revolution against the state and this idiot is all "tribal squabbling wah wah." Fucking liberals.

[Pretty Flaco]

The one place in Europe where a significant number of workers are favorably disposed toward revolution against the state and this idiot is all "tribal squabbling wah wah." Fucking liberals.

And apparently terrorism/guerrilla warfare is discrimination.

[Rooster]

Unless you've lived in an area that suffers from religious sectarianism then you're not really going to understand it. I have to explain it to every person I meet when I travel. You can't really say where you're from to another person when you live in such an area. You also can't say that you're an atheist. Trouble might kick off or trouble might not. Mind you, saying that, things have improved considerably over the years. Much of the really worse kind of bigotry has been done away with leaving just a couple of small pockets in the economically destitute areas and the orange lodge. For example, I haven't heard anyone getting turned down for a job after the employer finding out they've been to a catholic school for a while now.

Anyway, there's now very little difference between the two areas. You can travel the border freely, the language is more or less the same, it's a shared culture more or less and you can (in theory) work in the area you're not a national of. The only real differences are the amount of tax you pay and the money you use.

I think the main reason why the north doesn't want to be reunited is mostly economical, a perception that it's doing better than it would be if it was united. Which, of course, goes against all statistical data. It's the same sort of baloney the main political parties in Scotland give and it's the same reasons people parrot on in the street when you ask them. The north also has the perception that they'll be discriminated against because of the religion (which isn't that much of a deal these days, really). But I think that's also tied in with the political leaders not wanting to lose their privileges in the system that's already in place. There's also the issue of the south getting bailed out. I guess what I'm saying is, there's a lot of political and economical reasons for it. Not so much sectarian reasons (and the ones that are usually reflect an economic reason).

Unless an Irish person wants to come in here and comment then I don't think many of us have a right to comment on why people do or do not want reunification.

[Sword and Shield]

Fascist much?

Yeah I'm a fascist. I believe settlers should be allowed to steal land from the native people and make it a part of their United Kingdom. Lebensraum for the British! All hail her majesty the Queen! :rolleyes:

[lines]

Unless an Irish person wants to come in here and comment then I don't think many of us have a right to comment on why people do or do not want reunification.

Revleft is a forum where people constantly comment on situations in countries all over the world. Why should Northern Ireland be an exception to that?

[Rooster]

Revleft is a forum where people constantly comment on situations in countries all over the world. Why should Northern Ireland be an exception to that?

You can do it if you want, I just don't think you'll get a straight answer until an Irish person comes in and gives us one. It's not like Ireland is a country where contact with the outside world is banned.

[lines]

Its clear based on the study of history that violence in northern ireland has cut both ways, I don't need to hear an Irish person say that to know its true. Just because I am a leftist that doesn't mean I am going to side with whoever tells me they are the biggest victim and I am not going to be hypnotized into believing a group of peoples ethnic propaganda that wears a mask of leftism.

I am not on anyones side in Northern Ireland, I simply am saying that bigotry against ulstermen is bigotry.

[Sword and Shield]

I'm not looking for a straight answer. Its clear based on the study of history that violence in northern ireland has cut both ways. Just because I am a leftist that doesn't mean I am going to side with whoever tells me they are the biggest victim and I am not going to be hypnotized into believing a group of peoples ethnic propaganda that wears a mask of leftism.

I suppose violence between the Native Americans and white settlers went both ways too. Same with the Jews and Eastern Europeans vs. Germans. And the Chinese and Koreans vs. Japanese.

I guess all liberation movements are just "ethnic propaganda".

Seriously shut your imperialist mouth.

[Rooster]

The prods that were planted there long ago by the British now outnumber the Irish there

They don't. The numbers of self identified protestants and catholics is pretty much equal. One of the problems is, if you're looking at it from a religious point of view is that out of a population of like 1.7 mil, that would give the number of protestants in the north to be less then a million. The ROI has a population of over 4.5 million with over 80% saying they're catholic. I don't think religion is a main issue here but I do think it's being used somewhat to keep the status quo for a small and powerful minority.

[Rooster]

Ug, okay. I'll get back to this tomorrow as it's 4.33 am and I need to get up tomorrow and shout at royals.

[Gorilla]

Its clear based on the study of history that violence in northern ireland has cut both ways,

Oh, and I bet you've made extensive study of that history. What are some of your favorite book-length treatments of the subject?


I am not on anyones side in Northern Ireland, I simply am saying that bigotry against ulstermen is bigotry.

Recall everyone that bigotry is a problem in a great many places on earth, for example:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40228000/jpg/_40228163_terreblanche_ap203body.jpg
victim of bigotry

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40832000/jpg/_40832044_land_afp_203index.jpg
vicious racists

[lines]

Essentially what I am seeing is some people on this thread say that ulstermen of protestant descent do not deserve to have a voice in terms of how the place where they live is governed. That sentiment is racist and it is based on ethnic chauvinism. I am very tired of seeing Irish nationalists(irish nationalists doesnt refer to irish people in general) parade around under the banner of leftism telling everyone how much of a victim they are. They are advocating an apartheid sentiment.

The Irish people are wonderful people, I am referring to ethnic chauvinists among them. It is disgusting and it is hypocritical and I am tired of seeing them pretend to be left wing when in fact they are nationalists.

[The Red Next Door]

They are there now though. They belong there as much as anyone else. Ireland isn't re-unified because Northern Ireland has the right to self-determination.

That like saying the zionist belong in Palestine, they need to get out and go back to England, if they support England, then they should live there, and let the Irish have there country back.

Self determination my butt, It belong to another country called the UK,

If that your def of self determination, then you need to get yourself another dictionary.

[The Red Next Door]

Essentially what I am seeing is some people on this thread say that ulstermen of protestant descent do not deserve to have a voice in terms of how the place where they live is governed. That sentiment is racist and it is based on ethnic chauvinism. I am very tired of seeing Irish nationalists(irish nationalists doesnt refer to irish people in general) parade around under the banner of leftism telling everyone how much of a victim they are. They are advocating an apartheid sentiment.

The Irish people are wonderful people, I am referring to ethnic chauvinists among them. It is disgusting and it is hypocritical and I am tired of seeing them pretend to be left wing.


Oh hell, You got your organization as cpusa,and you called people pretend left wing? Get your democratic butt out of here, you fake red.

[Pretty Flaco]

Essentially what I am seeing is some people on this thread say that ulstermen of protestant descent do not deserve to have a voice in terms of how the place where they live is governed. That sentiment is racist and it is based on ethnic chauvinism. I am very tired of seeing Irish nationalists(irish nationalists doesnt refer to irish people in general) parade around under the banner of leftism telling everyone how much of a victim they are. They are advocating an apartheid sentiment.

The Irish people are wonderful people, I am referring to ethnic chauvinists among them. It is disgusting and it is hypocritical and I am tired of seeing them pretend to be left wing when in fact they are nationalists.

Other than the stupid comment about "they should get out of ireland", what is ethnic chauvinism or apartheid sentiment shared by irish republicans?

[Sword and Shield]

Other than the stupid comment about "they should get out of ireland"

But they should. If they don't want to return to a united sovereign Ireland they should gtfo. You can't just go to someone's place and then now that you're there impose your wishes on them.

[Pretty Flaco]

But they should. If they don't want to return to a united sovereign Ireland they should gtfo. You can't just go to someone's place and then now that you're there impose your wishes on them.

They've lived in ireland for so long though that kicking them out isn't plausible nor is it the right decision for ending the ethnic conflict, which is starting to wane over there, to my knowledge.

[Gorilla]

But they should. If they don't want to return to a united sovereign Ireland they should gtfo. You can't just go to someone's place and then now that you're there impose your wishes on them.

Other than the Anglo-Irish, there is really no racial difference between Irish Catholics and Irish Protestants at all. The fact that Lowland Scots Protestants were encouraged to settle among the Catholic Irish centuries ago does not mean that all Protestants are pure-blooded Scots and Catholics are pure blooded Irish. In fact essentially none of them are. My mother's people come from the South and we have the odd Presbyterian in the family tree - and up in Ulster it's even more entangled. So even if there wasn't the issue of "well we've been here for centuries" there's the deeper issue that there's no "we" ethnically speaking to separate Catholics and Protestants at all.

"Scots"-Irish identity is a basically Loyalist construct. Many Irish Protestants find it offensive because it denies them their Irishness, and basically all nationalists and Republicans find it offensive, because it is just one more bullshit way of dividing the Irish people.

Catholic or Protestant, everyone in the six counties other than the Anglican squirearchy is just another fucking mick. You can't tell people to go back to a country they're not from in the first place.

For that reason among many, many others, you will never hear the slogan "go back to Britain" directed at anyone but the British army.

[Sword and Shield]

They've lived in ireland for so long though that kicking them out isn't plausible nor is it the right decision for ending the ethnic conflict, which is starting to wane over there, to my knowledge.

I think you misunderstand. What I'm saying is that the settlers have no right to complain about unifying with the rest of Ireland. If they really don't want to live in a unified Ireland, they can leave. Otherwise, they should shut up and become a part of unified Ireland.

[Robocommie]

I have to admit that I'm not that familiar with the modern Irish Republican movement, though I am familiar with the awful history of Britain in Ireland (like fucking Cromwell) and the like.

I've always been inclined to favor Republicanism, but what I'd like to know is what the reasons for wanting to see Ireland returned to a single Irish state is, and the reason for opposing the continued British rule of northern Ireland. Just so I better understand the situation, mind you.

[RedSunRising]

Both irish and british have caused eachother misery. Irish militants have killed many british. Also many irish are very racist towards the english but veil that racism behind a victim narrative. People advocating a united ireland are nationalists pretending to be leftists.

Considering you have in your avatar a plump nationalist pretending to be a leftist I would remark "glass houses and stones, glass houses and stones".

As for many Irish being racist towards the English that is just daft. History is what it is though. Do you accuses blacks in the USA of also indulging in a "victim narrative" in which they veil their "anti-white racism"?

Last I heard the Irish didnt occupy Surrey for centuries.

[RedSunRising]

That like saying the zionist belong in Palestine, they need to get out and go back to England, if they support England, then they should live there, and let the Irish have there country back.


Uh, no they dont, there are clear political lines but there are no clear ethnic lines. Names such Adams, Hughes, Sands, etc are not pure "Gaelic" names at all. Likewise O'Neill and Murphy are hardly "Planter" names. Many Ulster Protestants spoke Irish as a first language well into the 19 th century. The division that lines wants to maintain was fostered in the wake of the United Irishman rebellion and was intensified during industrialization in order to weaken and divide the workers' movement. Modern day Loyalism does not have any real connection with the Jacobite wars any more than modern day Republicanism has.

Lines though dismissing the Orange state, the violent repression of the civil rights movement, the Special powers act, the pogroms, etc as a mere "victim narrative" and opposition to the sick idealogy of Loyalism as wanting "Aparteid" is being simply crazy.

[RedSunRising]

I am not on anyones side in Northern Ireland, I simply am saying that bigotry against ulstermen is bigotry.

Oh please. You clearly are.

[RedSunRising]

I know who james connolly is, but that is irrelevant. All nationalist movements have victim narratives.

What on earth is a victim narrative? Is this some trendy post-modern way of dismissing negative experiances of colonialism and Imperialism?

And US and Great British nationalism, not to mention French nationalism, most clearly do not have victim narratives.

[Wanted Man]

Lines must be the first CPUSA member/supporter I've seen on the 'net in some time. Good impression. :rolleyes:

[RedSunRising]

Lines must be the first CPUSA member/supporter I've seen on the 'net in some time. Good impression. :rolleyes:

I wouldnt say she is your average CPUSA member, 100 per cent of Tankie leaning social democrats love the ANC while she believes that they are oppressing the white minority.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/discrimination-against-whites-t153433/index.html

[Demogorgon]

You should have read that article more closely. 98.9% of those polled voted to remain part of the uk. Of the total electorate both those who were polled and those who decided not to vote there were 57.5% who voted to remain part of the uk. 58.1% of the electorate voted(due to a boycott of the vote by a portion of the population), of those who voted 98.9% wanted to remain a part of the uk which means that 57.5% of the total electorate wants to be a part of the uk and that is a majority.
I agree with some things you say, but I think you need to look at context more. I wrote this about the referendum some time ago:

"Northern Ireland had been run by its own Government with a huge degree of autonomy from Britain and that Government had trampled on the rights of Catholics. The amount of stuff it did was terrible and the province did not have the same rights as people in other parts of the UK. It was out of that the Civil Rights movement came. Most of them I daresay would have preferred a United Ireland but that was not the core cause. What they wanted was Universal Suffrage, Proportional Representation, an end to Housing Discrimination, the end of the divided education system, equal employment opportunities and so on. That is what matters to people, not border issues.

With that in mind the referendum needs to be seen in context, Northern Ireland did not have the level of Democracy standard in Western Europe and indeed the first election to an Assembly that passed the standards we expect did not happen until three months after that referendum and indeed the Assembly elected collapsed very quickly. Given Northern Ireland had never had a Democratic election at this point, I suspect a large part of the boycott was that people did not trust voting full stop."

There are people on this board who want to see everything in national terms and that leaves me cold, but don't let it obscure the underlying matter of the terrible discrimination existing within Northern Ireland.

[RedSunRising]

I agree the discrimination is real. Both parties have discriminated against each other. It's unproductive to get into a debate about who is the biggest victim.

http://www.belfastmedia.com/news_article.php?ID=4876

It is unproductive because there is NO debate on this issue.

[El Chuncho]

They killed a lot of British soldiers, definitely.

They killed a lot of civilians in England itself. IRA bomb attacks were not uncommon occurrences in England during the 20th Century. Our support of Irish Republicanism shouldn't really gloss over that fact. The IRA have made a lot of mistake, one of which is harming the English working-class, who are usually sympathetic to Irish Republicanism anyway.


I doubt anti-English racism in Ireland is anything like anti-Irish racism here in Britain

Depends on the areas, In Liverpool, North-East of England or the Glasgow area of Scotland, xenophobia to the Irish is not common because many people are of Irish descent (especially in Liverpool were most people have Irish ancestors), and some areas of Ireland are more racist. That said, I do not think you ever had signs like ''No Coloureds, No Dogs, and No Irish'' on boarding houses windows like you used to have in places like the London suburbs. :(

[El Chuncho]

Lines, the biggest victims are undoubtedly the Irish republicans, there is no debate. All they want is their country to be free again. What is so wrong with that? Ulstermen just want Ireland to be ruled by a foreign power (the British Government), which is a strange few indeed.

People are so quick to defend Ulstermen, and paint them as equal victims. But how would they feel if they are owned by an abstract government with a parliament somewhere else? People rightfully criticize the conquest of, say, Poland by NAZIs, the British Raj and the Belgium Congo, so why not afford the Irish, or any other group in the British Isles the same amount of respect and courtesy? The British Isles is made up of many distinct cultures which were only unified due to greed and the hunger for power by the English and Scottish parliaments, and the early conquests of the Normans and Frankish Angevins and Plantagenets. Ireland should be free, there is no question about it.

[RedSunRising]

Depends on the areas, In Liverpool, North-East of England or the Glasgow area of Scotland, xenophobia to the Irish is not common because many people are of Irish descent (especially in Liverpool were most people have Irish ancestors), and some areas of Ireland are more racist. That said, I do not think you ever had signs like ''No Coloureds, No Dogs, and No Irish'' on boarding houses windows like you used to have in places like the London suburbs. :(

I dont think that there is much if any anti-Irish racism in England today though, both because Irish immigrants now are better educated and not confined to hard physical jobs as they were in the 50s and because the focus of racists is now on Muslims. I dont think there is much if any anti-English racism in Ireland either (given that most Irish people have relations living in England who are basically English).

[Tommy4ever]

I dont think that there is much if any anti-Irish racism in England today though, both because Irish immigrants now are better educated and not confined to hard physical jobs as they were in the 50s and because the focus of racists is now on Muslims. I dont think there is much if any anti-English racism in Ireland either (given that most Irish people have relations living in England who are basically English).

Don't act like there is no anti-English racism in Ireland. :tt2:

I live in Scotland - where English hating is taken for granted by most - and going to Ireland left me a little shocked at times.

But I guess its more harmless bigotry than oppressive racism. Still not good at all though.

[RedSunRising]

Don't act like there is no anti-English racism in Ireland. :tt2:

I live in Scotland - where English hating is taken for granted by most - and going to Ireland left me a little shocked at times.

But I guess its more harmless bigotry than oppressive racism. Still not good at all though.

Where did you go in Ireland out of interest?

Im not defending anti-English bigotry just I dont really see it. Wanting to beat the English at Sports isnt really bigotry to me. Being rude or violent to an English person is.

[El Chuncho]

If it was just a question of sport, anti-Irish bigotry mustn't exist in England, because you rarely get people being violent or rude to Irish people in the streets. But it still does exist on small levels, the same with anti-English bigotry in Ireland; this shouldn't be used as a justification against Republicanism, but some supporters o Irish nationalism, making out that racism to Irish is more rife in the UK than it is is not helpful. Irish Republicans should always be supported, but the Irish people are not saints, you have anti-English Irish people in Ireland, and you can always find ''fuck the English'' comments made by Irish people online. People are people, not black and white objects, not just simple saints or sinners. Likewise you still do have anti-Irish people in England, especially in certain areas with big-Unionist support; same with Scotland, which has a large percentage of Unionists too.

Bigotry exists towards any group in the British isles, but it is usually more covert and is hidden behind support for football teams. If you cross over into the border The Sun newspaper is quite anti-English, and in if you cross into the English border regions, you'd see that The Sun is anti-Scottish (which they claim is just being against Scottish politicians).

Racism to Gaels as a whole is especially not common, as I do not believe that I have ever been picked on for being Gaelic at all, and know of no one that has. I think people are more xenophobic to people from other regions, rather than just hating them because of their ethnicity as some hardcore anti-Irish republicans have been of Gaelic descent. So bigotry does exist, although quite rare now, but actual racism to the Irish is rare. Again, I have seen some bigotry towards ''Paddies'' in England.


I dont think that there is much if any anti-Irish racism in England today though, both because Irish immigrants now are better educated and not confined to hard physical jobs as they were in the 50s and because the focus of racists is now on Muslims. I dont think there is much if any anti-English racism in Ireland either (given that most Irish people have relations living in England who are basically English).

Agreed, I do not think racism towards the Irish exists in large numbers in England, nor do I think that racism towards English exists in large numbers in Ireland, though I have seen cases of bigotry towards the English in Ireland - an often ignored problem despite the fact that arguably MOST English people, most English workers, support Irish Republicanism. I do, and not because my ancestry comes from there, but because it is the right thing to do. When Irish Republicans make bigoted remarks towards the English people, they are blaming the wrong people, and potentially losing some support. The British government isn't, and never has been, synonymous with the English themselves.

And I totally agree with you about Muslims. Now that really is mostly racism (although some cases are just anti-religion or xenophobia), despite the fact that Muslims are not even all the same ethnic groups.

[Invader Zim]

I suppose violence between the Native Americans and white settlers went both ways too. Same with the Jews and Eastern Europeans vs. Germans. And the Chinese and Koreans vs. Japanese.

I guess all liberation movements are just "ethnic propaganda".

Seriously shut your imperialist mouth.


Godwin's law strikes.

If you really think that the modern situation in Ireland, i.e. the one today, bares any semblance to resistance to the holocaust then you are the one who should be shutting up.

[El Chuncho]

I agree that both sides are fuelled by nationalism and sectarian hatred. However, I also have to say that at the start of the Troubles at least Republican militancy was extremely justifiable and was indeed the only possible option for the Catholic population. I also feel that they suffered much worse abuses than they dealt out.

Agreed. The Republicans did, and do, have bigots in their ranks (I do not like to deny that), but their ''war'' against the British Government is justified. I hate it when any countries are unfairly under the thumb of another (even something as ''abstract'' as ''Britain'').


This makes me more sympathetic to the Republican cause than the Loyalist one. But we should not stop short of pointing out the great flaws in that movement.

The Republican movements, in itself, is not flawed, some of the methods are, and some of the members are.

[Sword and Shield]

Godwin's law strikes.

If you really think that the modern situation in Ireland, i.e. the one today, bares any semblance to resistance to the holocaust then you are the one who should be shutting up.

It's more like the liberation of Europe by the Soviets. The holocaust was what happened a few centuries ago in Ireland. Yeah, Great Britain held on to its territories a lot longer than Germany did.

[Invader Zim]

It's more like the liberation of Europe by the Soviets. The holocaust was what happened a few centuries ago in Ireland. Yeah, Great Britain held on to its territories a lot longer than Germany did.
What, so the modern republican struggle in Ireland to replace one bourgeois state with another is the same as the denazification of Europe following the most brutal war in European history and following the greatest single attrocity in European history?

Sorry, but you aren't making this sound any less ridiculous and ignorant.


The holocaust was what happened a few centuries ago in Ireland.

No, the Holocaust is what occured in occupied Europe between 1942-1945. There is no other Holocaust, that is it. The Holocaust was a specific industrialised campaign of genocide and not to be confused with other genocides. That is not to suggest that there were not other genocides in history, but they were not the Holocaust. Note this does not necessarily preclude comparison between the Holocaust and other acts of genocide provided such comparison is legitimate, but the Holocaust is now a name and no longer a description.

As for a genocide occuring in Ireland, I presume you rather anachronistically refer to the Great Hunger of 1845-52? Sorry, but that wasn't a genocide, and it certainly wasn't the Holocaust.


Yeah, Great Britain held on to its territories a lot longer than Germany did.

Thanks for that Comrade Obvious.

[Sword and Shield]

What, so the modern republican struggle in Ireland to replace one bourgeois state with another is the same as the denazification of Europe following the most brutal war in European history and following the greatest single attrocity in European history?

Sorry, but you aren't making this sound any less ridiculous and ignorant.

It's a small scale equivalent.


No, the Holocaust is what occured in occupied Europe between 1942-1945. There is no other Holocaust, that is it. The Holocaust was a specific industrialised campaign of genocide and not to be confused with other genocides. That is not to suggest that there were not other genocides in history, but they were not the Holocaust. Note this does not necessarily preclude comparison between the Holocaust and other acts of genocide provided such comparison is legitimate, but the Holocaust is now a name and no longer a description.

I mean't the analogue of the holocaust. I figured that would be "Obvious" to a genius like you.


As for a genocide occuring in Ireland, I presume you rather anachronistically refer to the Great Hunger of 1845-52? Sorry, but that wasn't a genocide, and it certainly wasn't the Holocaust.

I'm referring to the colonization of Ireland, notably Cromwell's invasion.

[Invader Zim]

It's a small scale equivalent.

Sorry, but it isn't an equivalent at all, and you have provided no reason why we should think otherwise.


I mean't the analogue of the holocaust. I figured that would be "Obvious" to a genius like you.

I knew what you meant, I was just correcting you. Oh, and The Holocaust and the Cromwellian conquest of Ireland are not analogous.


I'm referring to the colonization of Ireland, notably Cromwell's invasion.

An even less sound charge than that of the famine. Cromwell, etc, had no intent to destroy the Irish people, they intended to invade and pacify them through extreme violence. The holocaust did not intend to pacify those groups the Nazis found undesirable, it aimed to exterminate them - all of them.

[t.shonku]

kick the Brits out of Ireland they deserve it

[The Red Next Door]

Uh, no they dont, there are clear political lines but there are no clear ethnic lines. Names such Adams, Hughes, Sands, etc are not pure "Gaelic" names at all. Likewise O'Neill and Murphy are hardly "Planter" names. Many Ulster Protestants spoke Irish as a first language well into the 19 th century. The division that lines wants to maintain was fostered in the wake of the United Irishman rebellion and was intensified during industrialization in order to weaken and divide the workers' movement. Modern day Loyalism does not have any real connection with the Jacobite wars any more than modern day Republicanism has.

Lines though dismissing the Orange state, the violent repression of the civil rights movement, the Special powers act, the pogroms, etc as a mere "victim narrative" and opposition to the sick idealogy of Loyalism as wanting "Aparteid" is being simply crazy.

Uh, Yes, they do, it not fair, if they want to be with England, then let them go there.

[The Red Next Door]

What, so the modern republican struggle in Ireland to replace one bourgeois state with another is the same as the denazification of Europe following the most brutal war in European history and following the greatest single attrocity in European history?

Sorry, but you aren't making this sound any less ridiculous and ignorant.



No, the Holocaust is what occured in occupied Europe between 1942-1945. There is no other Holocaust, that is it. The Holocaust was a specific industrialised campaign of genocide and not to be confused with other genocides. That is not to suggest that there were not other genocides in history, but they were not the Holocaust. Note this does not necessarily preclude comparison between the Holocaust and other acts of genocide provided such comparison is legitimate, but the Holocaust is now a name and no longer a description.

As for a genocide occuring in Ireland, I presume you rather anachronistically refer to the Great Hunger of 1845-52? Sorry, but that wasn't a genocide, and it certainly wasn't the Holocaust.



Thanks for that Comrade Obvious.

Why does it have to be industrial? Holocaust is a Holocaust, plain and simple, Christopher Columbus made hitler like a punk juvinille.

[Marxach-Léinínach]

They killed a lot of civilians in England itself. IRA bomb attacks were not uncommon occurrences in England during the 20th Century. Our support of Irish Republicanism shouldn't really gloss over that fact. The IRA have made a lot of mistake, one of which is harming the English working-class, who are usually sympathetic to Irish Republicanism anyway.

Oh yeah, they definitely had their fuck ups in England which killed civilians. Overall though, the total majority of their kills were soldiers and cops.


Depends on the areas, In Liverpool, North-East of England or the Glasgow area of Scotland, xenophobia to the Irish is not common because many people are of Irish descent (especially in Liverpool were most people have Irish ancestors), and some areas of Ireland are more racist. That said, I do not think you ever had signs like ''No Coloureds, No Dogs, and No Irish'' on boarding houses windows like you used to have in places like the London suburbs. :(

I don't know about England but there's definitely still racism up here in Scotland from certain types. I myself got racist abuse one time I was out and wearing an Ireland football shirt

[RedSunRising]

The Republican movements, in itself, is not flawed, some of the methods are, and some of the members are.

In fairness Irish Republicanism is pretty flawed in that it fails to properly understand the world from being to parochial and some of its its members are reactionairies.

[El Chuncho]

I don't know about England but there's definitely still racism up here in Scotland from certain types. I myself got racist abuse one time I was out and wearing an Ireland football shirt

Quite a sad and ironic thing due to the fact that most northern Scots and most Glaswegians (due to Irish immigration) are Gaelic themselves, and the Gaels are from Ireland originally. My family is Norse-Gaelic, or Gall Ghaidheil, and traces itself back to the Irish Conn Cetchathac, which shows how important Ireland was considered for the Scottish clans.

And on a personal level, I am sorry that you got abuse for wearing a football shirt. The racism tied into football is one of the reasons I completely ignore the game.

[El Chuncho]

Uh, Yes, they do, it not fair, if they want to be with England, then let them go there.

And Scotland, Wales and Cornwall. They do not just want to be with England, they are Unionists which means they support the Union of all countries. Equating ''Britain'' itself with England is problematic as the Union mostly came about due to the actions of the Scottish and English parliament, in 1707 (the creation of Great Britain: Scotland, England, Wales. Cornwall was consider an English county and Wales was properly unified with England by the Welsh Tudor dynasty in Laws in Wales Acts 1535–1542), originally the only thing these countries had to connect them was that they were ruled by a Scottish (not English) monastic dynasty, the Stuarts, but were non-unified countries. Ireland was unified with Great Britain with the passing of the Act of Union of 1800 which created the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. The capital of England, London, was chosen as the capital of the UK which led to the dominance of southern England (specifically London), but which left much of England as bad off as the rest of the countries (though the standard of living is lower in North-East England than most of Scotland, which has better healthcare and slightly lower taxes; in fact North-East England is often ignored by southerners, who think that anything above the wall is a part of Scotland).

[Invader Zim]

Why does it have to be industrial? Holocaust is a Holocaust, plain and simple, Christopher Columbus made hitler like a punk juvinille.

Every part of this post is a nonsense. Christopher Columbus was personally responcible for far less destruction amd death than Hitler and again, for the historically illiterate, the Holocaust is a specific historical event.

[RedSunRising]

Fuck off back to school.

In England they dont teach about the "Harrowing of the North" by the Normans in school do they? Like the history taught in school isnt what are rulers want to think. And also thats a pretty condescending thing to say, is it not?

[El Chuncho]

In England they dont teach about the "Harrowing of the North" by the Normans in school do they? Like the history taught in school isnt what are rulers want to think. And also thats a pretty condescending thing to say, is it not?

No, and they do not even teach it regularly in the north. But then, the syllabus is written by the middle-class, who are traditionally pro-aristocracy and pro-monarchy. :rolleyes:

[RedSunRising]

History is written by the "winners" and we havent won...Yet! ;)

[Gorilla]

I have to admit that I'm not that familiar with the modern Irish Republican movement, though I am familiar with the awful history of Britain in Ireland (like fucking Cromwell) and the like.

I've always been inclined to favor Republicanism, but what I'd like to know is what the reasons for wanting to see Ireland returned to a single Irish state is, and the reason for opposing the continued British rule of northern Ireland. Just so I better understand the situation, mind you.

A few reasons off the top of my head:

1. If the majority of the six counties' population is unionist/Loyalist, the majority of the six counties' working class is nationalist/republican.

2. Continuing systematic discrimination in housing, employment etc. backed by the occupation.

3. Counterinsurgency techniques and personnel trained in them are exported around the world, including to Iraq and Afghanistan. Shutting down the occupation means shutting down one of empire's major R&D-manufacturing facilities of occupation technology for elsewhere. (Similar applies to Palestine and Kashmir, naturally.)

4. The classic Republican, as opposed to nationalist, position does not recognize the legitimacy of any state institution now operating on Irish soil. The six county state is an occupation; the 26-county state is a continuation of the comprador "Free State" against which Republicans fought and died during the civil war - neither one represents the democratic will of the united, independent Irish people. I don't think I even have to point out why that's valuable. (Although granted, many "Republican" politicians have gone soft on Dublin and Stormont out of opportunism.)

5. Although Republicanism does have some hysterical Catholic morons, "distributists" and suchlike among its ranks, and has had some really terrible periods of conservatism like the 1950s, on the whole it has tended leftward, even very far leftward as a result of its social base and the social forces it finds itself in contention with. This has been true since the First Dail, an institution of parallel power established under British rule in 1919:


We...declare that the Nation's sovereignty extends not only to all men and women of the Nation, but to all its material possessions, the Nation's soil and all its resources, all the wealth and all the wealth-producing processes within the Nation, and with him we reaffirm that all right to private property must be subordinated to the public right and welfare.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Democratic_Programme

[Invader Zim]

In England they dont teach about the "Harrowing of the North" by the Normans in school do they? Like the history taught in school isnt what are rulers want to think. And also thats a pretty condescending thing to say, is it not?

Yep, it is condesending, and I changed my mind hense the reason I removed it before you posted. Oh well.

But that said the attempts by certain individuals to employ the Holocaust as a tool with which to attack individuals and institutions they do not like through abjectly false comparison is an act of trivialisation, not only of the Holocaust but also of that which they wish to attack. And to do so with such a crass and plainly false post is actually quite sickening. So actually I change my mind again, that individual should fuck off back to school.

[The Red Next Door]

And Scotland, Wales and Cornwall. They do not just want to be with England, they are Unionists which means they support the Union of all countries. Equating ''Britain'' itself with England is problematic as the Union mostly came about due to the actions of the Scottish and English parliament, in 1707 (the creation of Great Britain: Scotland, England, Wales. Cornwall was consider an English county and Wales was properly unified with England by the Welsh Tudor dynasty in Laws in Wales Acts 1535–1542), originally the only thing these countries had to connect them was that they were ruled by a Scottish (not English) monastic dynasty, the Stuarts, but were non-unified countries. Ireland was unified with Great Britain with the passing of the Act of Union of 1800 which created the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. The capital of England, London, was chosen as the capital of the UK which led to the dominance of southern England (specifically London), but which left much of England as bad off as the rest of the countries (though the standard of living is lower in North-East England than most of Scotland, which has better healthcare and slightly lower taxes; in fact North-East England is often ignored by southerners, who think that anything above the wall is a part of Scotland).

I am going to say it again, and don't make me annoy and more angry because a cacausian friend of mine got angry because of some extreme bullshit, decided to broad brush, by using the magic N. I just got done flying the handle because with combine of fucking idiot at school, fucking people on revimperialist left and etc, made me explode when my friend drop the N word. I just got him down having saying sorry up and down and wanting to hug me for hurting me like that.

If they want to be apart of fucking ENGLAND, THEY SHOULD LEAVE PLAIN AND SIMPLE, I DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT HEARING SOME LEGAL MOMBO JOMBO ABOUT THE UK UNWANTED UNION, THEY NEED TO GET THE FUCK OUT THOSE FUCKING CRACKER BRIT AND I DON'T CARE IF I GET BANNED I REACH MY LIMIT WITH U BASTARDS

[The Red Next Door]

every part of this post is a nonsense. Christopher columbus was personally responcible for far less destruction amd death than hitler and again, for the historically illiterate, the holocaust is a specific historical event.

i am sick of ur ass to go fuck yourself u fucking brit, you are snob,

[lines]

i am sick of ur ass to go fuck yourself u fucking brit, you are snob,

He doesn't seem like a snob to me.

[Robocommie]

Very interesting, thank you Gorilla

[black magick hustla]

The one place in Europe where a significant number of workers are favorably disposed toward revolution against the state and this idiot is all "tribal squabbling wah wah." Fucking liberals.
On the contrary, workers are the weakest when they can be rallied along sectarian gangs to kill each other.

[ZeroNowhere]

i am sick of ur ass to go fuck yourself u fucking brit, you are snob,You: :cursing:

[El Chuncho]

i am sick of ur ass to go fuck yourself u fucking brit, you are snob,

Uncalled for and the use of ''Brit'' makes your comment especially bigoted. And how is he a snob?

[El Chuncho]

I am going to say it again, and don't make me annoy and more angry because a cacausian friend of mine got angry because of some extreme bullshit, decided to broad brush, by using the magic N.

What has that got to do with me? How is me posting going to annoy you, and why should I damn well care? You said a bullshit comment which I called you out on.


I just got done flying the handle because with combine of fucking idiot at school, fucking people on revimperialist left and etc, made me explode when my friend drop the N word. I just got him down having saying sorry up and down and wanting to hug me for hurting me like that.

OK....


If they want to be apart of fucking ENGLAND, THEY SHOULD LEAVE PLAIN AND SIMPLE, I DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT HEARING SOME LEGAL MOMBO JOMBO ABOUT THE UK UNWANTED UNION, THEY NEED TO GET THE FUCK OUT THOSE FUCKING CRACKER BRIT AND I DON'T CARE IF I GET BANNED I REACH MY LIMIT WITH U BASTARDS

As I have said:

THEY DO NOT WANT TO BE PART OF ENGLAND, THEY WANT TO BE IN THE BRITISH UNION.

Stop being bigoted to people. Your use of Brit is highly offensive and I do not support the Union nor consider myself British. You know what, I support Irish Republicanism, and guess what? I am English? Does that make me a cracker Brit?

I am reporting you to the mods by the way.

[Demogorgon]

There are some absolutely pathetic posts in this thread. Many of them I note from people who are far removed geographically from the conflict and apparently this is reflected in their knowledge.

Claiming people born and raised in Northern Ireland and descended from generations of people that have lived there should "go back to England" is disgusting (not to mention completely stupid given many of them were of Scottish rather than English descent anyway). Moreover as has been pointed out they have not the slightest desire to "be part of England", but rather have a clear Northern Irish identity as part of a British Union.

It is akin to Scottish people wishing Scotland to remain part of Britain. Should such Scottish people "go back to England", a country they do not necessarily have any connection to?

[El Chuncho]

There are some absolutely pathetic posts in this thread. Many of them I note from people who are far removed geographically from the conflict and apparently this is reflected in their knowledge.

Claiming people born and raised in Northern Ireland and descended from generations of people that have lived there should "go back to England" is disgusting (not to mention completely stupid given many of them were of Scottish rather than English descent anyway). Moreover as has been pointed out they have not the slightest desire to "be part of England", but rather have a clear Northern Irish identity as part of a British Union.

It is akin to Scottish people wishing Scotland to remain part of Britain. Should such Scottish people "go back to England", a country they do not necessarily have any connection to?

Agreed. And not only are many Northern Irish descend from Anglic and Gaelic Scots, but most are mixed with the local Irish population too. And you make a great point about Scottish Unionists. I think there is a double-standard when it comes to the Unionists in Ireland, who are just seen (absurdly) as ''English''.

I do not support Unionism in anyway, but saying that the Northern Irish should go back to England as if they are all of predominant English ancestry, is racist (and would be even if they were originally from England, which they weren't). The posts pushing this view are pathetic indeed. a little racist and trolling.

[GallowsBird]

(not to mention completely stupid given many of them were of Scottish rather than English descent anyway).

I was just about to but in here and add that point but you beat me to it. ;)

Also by the line of reasoning given by some in this thread where do folk who do not wish to be part of the UK but are from England move to? Schleswig-Holstein?:confused:

[El Chuncho]

Also the Gaelic people have quite a lot of non-Indo-European cultural and linguistic traits. Also you have Norse-Gaels in Scotland. If some are unionists should they just split themselves into two, one half heading to Scandinavia and one to Ireland?

A silly view indeed.

[Junder]

I understand there is a specific thread for introductions but I think this thread is more appropriate thread considering I am in fact northern Irish. In fact I am quite a rareb breed in northern Ireland as I am a working class, left wing loyalist (i belong to a political party known as the progressive unionist party, feel free to google it) yes we do exist, I am also a member of a flute band, a loyal order and I am a British soldier (part time) and my full time job I work for the ministry of defence as of all things a community development worker, meaning I work with the families of serving soldiers based here in northern Ireland, I am sure I am anathema to most of you on this site and no doubt some of you have already made some stereotypical pre conceptions of me, however let me debase one to begin with, I am not sectarian,

[RedSunRising]

If they want to be apart of fucking ENGLAND, THEY SHOULD LEAVE PLAIN AND SIMPLE, I DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT HEARING SOME LEGAL MOMBO JOMBO ABOUT THE UK UNWANTED UNION, THEY NEED TO GET THE FUCK OUT THOSE FUCKING CRACKER BRIT AND I DON'T CARE IF I GET BANNED I REACH MY LIMIT WITH U BASTARDS

No one in Ireland advocates that (though Loyalists want to believe it). Though I have heard French and German people advocate it.

[RedSunRising]

I am a British soldier (part time) and my full time job I work for the ministry of defence as of all things a community development worker, meaning I work with the families of serving soldiers based here in northern Ireland

So you work for an organization who's role (which you dont qualify as something you are ashamed of) is to kill for the British ruling class both internationally and if necessary domestically and yet you call yourself left wing?

[RedSunRising]

5. Although Republicanism does have some hysterical Catholic morons, "distributists" and suchlike among its ranks, and has had some really terrible periods of conservatism like the 1950s, on the whole it has tended leftward, even very far leftward as a result of its social base and the social forces it finds itself in contention with. This has been true since the First Dail, an institution of parallel power established under British rule in 1919:

In fairness those types walked out from the Provisional movement in 1986 and are confined to a very strange organization calling itself "Republican Sinn Fein" which is made up in the south at least by Latin Mass fanatics, neo-pagans who play at being Druids and witches and what not, thuggish nationalists and various other riff raff and space cadets. I regard them as semi-fascist.

[Invader Zim]

I am going to say it again, and don't make me annoy and more angry because a cacausian friend of mine got angry because of some extreme bullshit, decided to broad brush, by using the magic N. I just got done flying the handle because with combine of fucking idiot at school, fucking people on revimperialist left and etc, made me explode when my friend drop the N word. I just got him down having saying sorry up and down and wanting to hug me for hurting me like that.

Nobody cares.



If they want to be apart of fucking ENGLAND, THEY SHOULD LEAVE PLAIN AND SIMPLE, I DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT HEARING SOME LEGAL MOMBO JOMBO ABOUT THE UK UNWANTED UNION, THEY NEED TO GET THE FUCK OUT THOSE FUCKING CRACKER BRIT AND I DON'T CARE IF I GET BANNED I REACH MY LIMIT WITH U BASTARDS

How old are you?


i am sick of ur ass to go fuck yourself u fucking brit, you are snob,

And you're a xenophobe with anger issues.

[Tim Finnegan]

So you work for an organization who's role (which you dont qualify as something you are ashamed of) is to kill for the British ruling class both internationally and if necessary domestically and yet you call yourself left wing?
I didn't realise that we on the far-verging-on-ultra-left had a monopoly on that particular label. The centre-left, whatever we may think of it, is still to the left of centre, and I don't think that military service can realistically be taken to universally exclude someone from that general alignment.

[Rooster]

Also the Gaelic people have quite a lot of non-Indo-European cultural and linguistic traits.

I thought that Gaelic and celtic culture were Indo-European. Many words in gaelic in very similar to their Sanskrit counterparts (if you want me to elaborate then you'll have to wait until I get that fucking book back from my brother). Culturally though, I'm not sure how any person living today can relate to an Indo-European culture but in the past I think they shared the same gods and customs. The point is, the gaels/celts speak/spoke an Indo-European language. There was talk of a non Indo-European origination for the Picts and their language but I think that's been pretty much debunked.

[El Chuncho]

I thought that Gaelic and celtic culture were Indo-European.

They are, but a lot of words in Gaelic are not traceable to Indo-European, and thus have more non-Indo-European influence that the Brythonic languages, much like Germanic languages, especially Norse Germanic, and Greek.


Many words in gaelic in very similar to their Sanskrit counterparts (if you want me to elaborate then you'll have to wait until I get that fucking book back from my brother).

Indo-European languages are my main field of linguistic study (mostly specialized to Gothic, an extinct East Germanic language), so you do not have to elaborate, I can write a few parallels now:

Sanskrit numbers: 1 eka, 2 dvi, 3 tri, 4 catur, 5 panca

Scottish Gaelic numbers: 1 aon, 2 da, 3 tri, 4 ceithir, 5 coig

The numbers are not perfect matches, but most of them are perfect cognates, same with English.


Culturally though, I'm not sure how any person living today can relate to an Indo-European culture but in the past I think they shared the same gods and customs.

Definitely. Indo-European religions all have ''cognates'' with each other. Tyr (Norse), Tiw (English), Zeus (Greek), Jupiter (Latin), Dyaus Pitar (Hinduism), and Dei Patrous (Illyrian), all have a name derived from the Proto-Indo-European Dyeus Phater.


The point is, the gaels/celts speak/spoke an Indo-European language. There was talk of a non Indo-European origination for the Picts and their language but I think that's been pretty much debunked.

Gaels do speak an Indo-European language indeed, but it does have more non-Indo-European loanwords and influence - note influence - than the other Celtic language groups. The Pictish does not seem to have much non-Indo-European influence, at all, as you say, and is probably just northern Brythonic, though many would count them as a sister group.

[GallowsBird]

I am going to say it again, and don't make me annoy and more angry because a cacausian friend of mine got angry because of some extreme bullshit, decided to broad brush, by using the magic N. I just got done flying the handle because with combine of fucking idiot at school, fucking people on revimperialist left and etc, made me explode when my friend drop the N word. I just got him down having saying sorry up and down and wanting to hug me for hurting me like that.

Maybe we would care more about that if you didn't post this:


If they want to be apart of fucking ENGLAND, THEY SHOULD LEAVE PLAIN AND SIMPLE, I DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT HEARING SOME LEGAL MOMBO JOMBO ABOUT THE UK UNWANTED UNION, THEY NEED TO GET THE FUCK OUT THOSE FUCKING CRACKER BRIT AND I DON'T CARE IF I GET BANNED I REACH MY LIMIT WITH U BASTARDS

Sorry but you are as bad as your "friend". Any ethnic slurs (and in this context cracker is one) are wrong and make you look like an ass and any time someone resorts to insulting people then they instantly fail.

This was a reasonably civilised debate and you had to act like an immature child.

Next time you and a "friend" are hurling racial slurs at each other I suggest you don't come here and take it out on people you barely know... though I guess it is easier to insult people online than in the "real world". :rolleyes:

[Sword and Shield]

I understand there is a specific thread for introductions but I think this thread is more appropriate thread considering I am in fact northern Irish. In fact I am quite a rareb breed in northern Ireland as I am a working class, left wing loyalist (i belong to a political party known as the progressive unionist party, feel free to google it) yes we do exist, I am also a member of a flute band, a loyal order and I am a British soldier (part time) and my full time job I work for the ministry of defence as of all things a community development worker, meaning I work with the families of serving soldiers based here in northern Ireland, I am sure I am anathema to most of you on this site and no doubt some of you have already made some stereotypical pre conceptions of me, however let me debase one to begin with, I am not sectarian,

We have "leftists" here who serve in the American military. We criticize them the same way we criticize you.

Edit: Just realized he might be a troll or a non-leftist posing as a leftist. Oh well...