The Red Flag and Anarchy

[thriller]

Is the red flag symbolic of anarchism? When I go to protests I usually bring a solid color red flag with no symbols on it. This is because I'm a communist with no specific tendency (other than Marxism I guess) within communist theory. But when I'm at a protest a lot of people come up and say "ohh so you're an anarchist." which I'm not at all. I thought the black flag, or even red and black, was 'the' anarchist color(s), symbol, whatever. I always believed that red was the socialist/communist color (better dead than red, red AND anarchist action network to name a few examples). Do I have it wrong?

[The Man]

Is the red flag symbolic of anarchism? When I go to protests I usually bring a solid color red flag with no symbols on it. This is because I'm a communist with no specific tendency (other than Marxism I guess) within communist theory. But when I'm at a protest a lot of people come up and say "ohh so you're an anarchist." which I'm not at all. I thought the black flag, or even red and black, was 'the' anarchist color(s), symbol, whatever. I always believed that red was the socialist/communist color (better dead than red, red AND anarchist action network to name a few examples). Do I have it wrong?

Nope. Red was the symbol used in the Paris Commune as their flag.. It was basically the first symbol of Communism..

And it looked dumb at the time.. But now we have Hammers and Sickles!

[Commissar Rykov]

No you do not have it wrong. Though I am confused as to why people would think the Red Flag is for Anarchy it has always been the Black Flag IIRC.

[Gorilla]

Is the red flag symbolic of anarchism? When I go to protests I usually bring a solid color red flag with no symbols on it. This is because I'm a communist with no specific tendency (other than Marxism I guess) within communist theory. But when I'm at a protest a lot of people come up and say "ohh so you're an anarchist." which I'm not at all. I thought the black flag, or even red and black, was 'the' anarchist color(s), symbol, whatever. I always believed that red was the socialist/communist color (better dead than red, red AND anarchist action network to name a few examples). Do I have it wrong?

I think before the Marxist/anarchist split in the first international, both of us used to use red flags. I'm not sure when anarchists started to use black to the exclusion of red but that's become the convention.

I think people just associate no-emblem flags with anarchism is why they're confused. You've got the right color.

[Summerspeaker]

The anarchist communist Partido Liberal Mexicano employed red flags with "Tierra y Libertad" written in white.

[tachosomoza]

http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/append2.html



"Why is our flag black? Black is a shade of negation. The black flag is the negation of all flags. It is a negation of nationhood which puts the human race against itself and denies the unity of all humankind. Black is a mood of anger and outrage at all the hideous crimes against humanity perpetrated in the name of allegiance to one state or another. It is anger and outrage at the insult to human intelligence implied in the pretences, hypocrisies, and cheap chicaneries of governments . . . Black is also a colour of mourning; the black flag which cancels out the nation also mourns its victims the countless millions murdered in wars, external and internal, to the greater glory and stability of some bloody state. It mourns for those whose labour is robbed (taxed) to pay for the slaughter and oppression of other human beings. It mourns not only the death of the body but the crippling of the spirit under authoritarian and hierarchic systems; it mourns the millions of brain cells blacked out with never a chance to light up the world. It is a colour of inconsolable grief.

"But black is also beautiful. It is a colour of determination, of resolve, of strength, a colour by which all others are clarified and defined. Black is the mysterious surrounding of germination, of fertility, the breeding ground of new life which always evolves, renews, refreshes, and reproduces itself in darkness. The seed hidden in the earth, the strange journey of the sperm, the secret growth of the embryo in the womb all these the blackness surrounds and protects.

"So black is negation, is anger, is outrage, is mourning, is beauty, is hope, is the fostering and sheltering of new forms of human life and relationship on and with this earth. The black flag means all these things. We are proud to carry it, sorry we have to, and look forward to the day when such a symbol will no longer be necessary." ["Why the Black Flag?", Howard Ehrlich (ed.), Reinventing Anarchy, Again, pp. 31-2]


When I go to actions I carry a black flag and wear black clothing. I've always associated black with traditional Anarchist thought.

[Lanky Wanker]

black is the colour of anarchy, and red is associated with communism obviously, so I'm thinking maybe they thought you were an anarcho-communist (seeing as the anarcho-communist/syndicalist flag is black and red). what were they and what were they wearing?

[bricolage]

It's not true that anarchists have always used a black flag, for most of the 19th Century they operated under a red one, as did most over communists, socialists and whatnot. It's only after the Paris Commune that the black one begins to be used as a point of differentiation. In Louise Michel's memoirs she explicitly talks about flying the black flag because the red one is buried in Pere Lachaise.

[thriller]

black is the colour of anarchy, and red is associated with communism obviously, so I'm thinking maybe they thought you were an anarcho-communist (seeing as the anarcho-communist/syndicalist flag is black and red). what were they and what were they wearing?

First off, ur sig is baller.
Secondly, some were older people, maybe 60's or 70's. They were in regular, casual clothes, jeans and a shirt. A few were actually IWW members, which surprised me because they had red and black flags. One guy even said "where's the black on ur flag?"
I was wearing black to keep warm actually, but I had a big ol hammer and sickle on my back and a Che hat, so I don't know how they couldve not seen my overtly communist leaning.

Thanks for the responses. I knew the red flag was the flag at the Paris commune which is why I usually sport it.

[Obs]

Nope. Red was the symbol used in the Paris Commune as their flag.. It was basically the first symbol of Communism..

And it looked dumb at the time.. But now we have Hammers and Sickles!

Dude, a pure red flag is fucking beautiful.

[bricolage]

Regarding my previous post, this is the Louise Michel quote, it's from her trial in 1883 so although I doesn't explicitly say Pere Lachaise (I remembered that wrong) putting it in context I think it's a fair assumption to make;

We carried the black flag because the demonstration was to be absolutely peaceful, and the black flag is the flag of strikes and the flag of those that are hungry. Could we have carried any other flag? The red flag is nailed up in the cemeteries, and we should take it only when we can protect it. Well, we couldn't do that. I have told before and now I repeat: it was an essentially peaceful demonstration.

[hatzel]

According to Wikipedia, Kropotkin preferred the red flag over the black. That suggests that it still had some currency amongst anarchists at that time, I dunno...I quite like the black one, though :)

[Kuppo Shakur]

Protests are fashion shows.

[thriller]

Protests are fashion shows.

And RevLeft is for lazy people?

[Rooster]

I've always associated a red flag with socialism. Perhaps people just thought you were an anarchist because they're not really that savvy with left symbolism? Or maybe it seems to be more common to be an anarchist at a protest than a communist.

[Tablo]

I know anarchists used to fly the red flag. I think the black flag gained popularity over the red flag amongst anarchists due to the adoption of the red flag by the soviet union. I may be wrong though.

[Red Commissar]

Red flags have been a universal sign of "socialism" for the most part with a few exceptions. Seeing as Marxists and Anarchists both follow interpretations of socialism, the red flag can be a symbol for anarchists or any other socialist.

But like some Marxists who feel the need to use varying symbols- hammers, hammer and sickles, etc depending on their specific orientation to distinguish themselves from others, the Same goes for anarchists. Black is more something that distinguishes them and makes people know who they are. You'll see some anarchists use black and red together though (typically representative of Anarcho-syndicalism, but it can be used in any context)- it's really a matter of how the present themselves.

[F9]

Anarchists use black flag mostly because some "communists" ruined the red one...(Nikolas Asimos:D dont ask, google it;) of course not his precise words btw)

i prefer the black and red flag tbh, no h&s no (A), just good old "syndicalist" flag!

[Tim Finnegan]

And it looked dumb at the time.. But now we have Hammers and Sickles!
I prefer the red flag, as it happens. It's a symbol of class, not of any organisation; a plain red banner for a universal proletariat, not the icon of a state or a party.


I know anarchists used to fly the red flag. I think the black flag gained popularity over the red flag amongst anarchists due to the adoption of the red flag by the soviet union. I may be wrong though.
While I think that the will to distinguish anarchist from other socialisms was at the heart of the adoption of the black flag, I don't think it was because of an association with the Soviet Union, or even Marxism in its general form, but simply of any "authoritarian" or "statist" socialisms. The red flag was still a standard, if somewhat dusty, icon of social democracy in Europe well into the post-war period; only in North America did it ever become exclusively associated with Marxism.

[bricolage]

yeah I mean the labour party still sing the red flag.
and you are right it's well before the soviet union, like I said above the point at which the black flag starts to be used is after the collapse of the first international and the defeat of the paris commune, I don't think it's coincidental that these two events mark the point at which anarchism and 'marxism' start to exist as movements seperate from one another.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Dude, a pure red flag is fucking beautiful.



seconded. god damn they look good in a steady wind.



vexiphilia!


also, the closest thing to red in relation to anarchism is the red and black.
http://danny.oz.au/politics/anarchism/cnt.gif



and yes, this looks almost as good as a plain red flag.(ive ALWAYS had a soft spot for red and black 2 tones)

[#FF0000]

People just think everyone at a protests with anything radical = an anarchist, I guess.

[Kiev Communard]

Red flags have been a universal sign of "socialism" for the most part with a few exceptions. Seeing as Marxists and Anarchists both follow interpretations of socialism, the red flag can be a symbol for anarchists or any other socialist.

But like some Marxists who feel the need to use varying symbols- hammers, hammer and sickles, etc depending on their specific orientation to distinguish themselves from others, the Same goes for anarchists. Black is more something that distinguishes them and makes people know who they are. You'll see some anarchists use black and red together though (typically representative of Anarcho-syndicalism, but it can be used in any context)- it's really a matter of how the present themselves.

There is actually separate blog post on Anarchist Writers with regard to anarchists and their historical use of the red flag:




Given that the Black Flag became the preferred anarchist symbol in the 20th century, it comes as no surprise to see that both Proudhon and Bakunin praised the use of the red flag. Bakunin, for example, wrote of "the flag of theoretical materialism, the red flag of economic equality and social justice, is raised by the practical idealism of the oppressed and famishing masses, tending to realise the greatest liberty and the human right of each in the fraternity of all men on the earth." [God and the State, p. 47] Proudhon a few weeks after building barricades in Paris, as historian Jack Hayward notes, "predicted in March 1848 the internationalism of the Red Flag" when he wrote: "Keep if you wish the tricolore, symbol of our nationality. But remember that the red flag represents the final revolution . . . The red flag is the federal standard of humanity!" [quoted by Hayward, After the French Revolution, p. 246].....


.....As anarchist Communard Louise Michel put it, "Lyon, Marseille, Narbonne, all had their own Communes, and like ours [in Paris], theirs too were drowned in the blood of revolutionaries. That is why our flags are red. Why are our red banners so terribly frightening to those persons who have caused them to be stained that colour?" [The Red Virgin: Memoirs of Louise Michel, p. 65] March 18th, 1877, saw Kropotkin participate in a protest march in Berne which involved the anarchists "carrying the red flag in honour of the Paris Commune" for "in Switzerland federal law prohibited public display of the red flag." [Martin A. Miller, Kropotkin, p. 137] Anarchist historians Nicolas Walter and Heiner Becker note that "Kropotkin always preferred the red flag." [Peter Kropotkin, Act for Yourselves, p. 128] On Labour Day in 1899, Emma Goldman gave lectures to miners in Spring Valley, Illinois, which ended in a demonstration which she headed "carrying a large red flag." [Living My Life, vol. 1, p. 245] According to historian Caroline Waldron Merithew, the 300 marchers "defied police orders to haul down the 'red flag of anarchy.'" [Anarchist Motherhood, p. 236]

[RedHal]

maybe cuz you were dirty and smelled funny

[Os Cangaceiros]

maybe cuz you were dirty and smelled funny

Dirty and smelled funny? What is this, the late 90's?

Get with the times...uncleanliness wouldn't be nearly ironic enough for today's anarchists.

[thriller]

maybe cuz you were dirty and smelled funny

While that would make sense, I was not. I'm no fucking hippie. And the best way to avoid becoming a hippie is to stay clean, which is how I roll.
And by clean, I mean hygienic.